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Interviewer: So during the summer months, temperatures are rising, people are getting out more, and you might be getting a little concerned about heat exposure and how it might be impacting your health.

We're here with emergency room physician, Dr. Troy Madsen. And Dr. Madsen, when it comes to heat exposure, what do people need to be concerned about?

Dr. Madsen: Well, the biggest thing with heat exposure is just your body overheating. That's where you really start to see issues not just with feeling uncomfortable, but potentially having even a life-threatening situation. Some people . . . you know, you may be familiar with just being out in the heat, you've been hiking or on your bike, or you know, whatever you might be doing, and you're probably familiar with that feeling of just feeling thirsty and tired and maybe a little bit nauseous and maybe a little bit of a headache. Well, at that point, you may be experiencing what we call heat exhaustion. But the big risk becomes when you move beyond that, and your body temperature continues to rise. And then you can experience what's called heatstroke. And that becomes a much more serious thing.

In those situations, your body temperature is often very high. You can have damage to the organs in your body, meaning damage to the kidneys, even potentially the heart, the brain. And in some of those situations, when you hear about these stories of people in places where there is just extreme heat and people are dying of the heat, it is often because of heat stroke that that's happening.

Interviewer: Yeah, we hear about these deadly heat waves and things on the news. And it's, you know, what does that even mean? We're talking like organ damage. Like the heat is getting so high that . . . are you talking brain? Are you talking heart? Who is at risk, and what is it actually doing to the body?

Dr. Madsen: It's exactly that. The body is getting so hot that it is leading to damage and breakdown of the tissues in the brain, the heart, the kidneys. Sometimes part of that is dehydration that's contributing to that as well where that's affecting your kidney function. But in terms of risk, there are a few groups who are really at risk of this. Number one is people who are experiencing homelessness, who may be out in the heat, aren't in a cool place. Other people who are out doing outdoor activities. And maybe you find yourself in a situation where you're out, you're exposed, you know, there's no way to really cool down, maybe you didn't bring enough water along on your hike or your bike ride.

But then there are also certain groups that are really at risk. And these are the very young and the very old. So young babies, infants, and then older people have a tougher time regulating their body temperature. So you might be out, and let's say you take your baby, you know, in a stroller, you're out on a walk, or you go to the zoo or something and you're feeling okay, or maybe you're feeling just a little bit of a headache or a little bit hot. Your baby could be experiencing very severe symptoms in that situation. So if you live with the very young or the very old, just be aware that if you're not feeling great, they're probably experiencing a whole lot more of the heat and much worse effects than you are.

Interviewer: So it sounds like heat exposure affects basically anyone and everyone if you don't, you know, take the right steps. What are some of the ways that a person can, say, prevent heat exhaustion and then later heat stroke?

Dr. Madsen: Well, the biggest thing, you know, is to try and be in a situation where you can cool down. If you're out on a hike or you're out somewhere in the outdoors, try to go in shaded areas, ideally areas that have a water source, something where you can cool down if you need to. Carry plenty of water, you want to make sure you have lots of water with you. The general rule of thumb is 16 ounces of water per hour. I tell people start with at least eight ounces if you're just doing moderate activities. Sixteen ounces can be a lot to carry if you're out on several hours, but try and do that if you can, or at least know where you can get some water.

The big thing I would suggest too is if you have elderly parents, relatives, friends, neighbors, check in on them. One of the sad things that sometimes happens is older people, especially right now, may not have checked their air conditioner, may not know if it's working, or it may work and then it stops working. And sometimes a very sad thing we see is people in this situation then are either embarrassed to reach out for help or don't know who to call for help. And the house temperature gets very hot, and they experience severe symptoms with heatstroke or even death. So check on those people. If you have babies as well, just be aware that they can experience these heat symptoms much more than you may be experiencing at that same time.

Interviewer: So heatstroke, something to keep in mind, something that could be very, very dangerous. ER-worthy if it gets bad enough?

Dr. Madsen: Absolutely, yep. If it's bad enough, if you have a family member or yourself who's just confused, not feeling well, absolutely, get to the ER. Try to get cooled down quickly. Call 911 if you need immediate help.

Interviewer: So a little bit of elbow pain if you're a pitcher in baseball is okay, but if it starts to get pretty severe, you're going to want to do something about that.

Dr. Chalmers, how much elbow pain for a pitcher is acceptable? And what's kind of the threshold that you maybe want to have somebody look at what's causing that pain?

Dr. Chalmers: Yeah, we've done some studies that have helped to inform of us of that. And I think one thing to understand that it's not a normal human motion to pitch a baseball. There's nothing we're evolved to that makes us good at pitching a baseball. And there's a lot of adaptations pitchers undergo, as they pitch through adolescence, that help them to become better at it for sure.

But we've done two studies that I think help and inform our thinking about this. We did a large study of youth baseball players, kind of youth and adolescent baseball players, where we asked them whether or not they have pain. And about 30% of kind of normal, uninjured players will say they have regular pain with play. Now this study we did, though, I think is even more informative is we took pitchers and we had them throw through a simulative game. So they threw 90 pitches kind of in simulated 15 pitch innings. And what happened is that . . . and we collected pain scores and fatigues scores, and what we found is that as pitchers get towards that sixth inning, pain scores start to creep up to somewhere around 1 or 2 out of 10, which just kind of still qualifies as minimal to mild amount of pain but not zero pain.

So I usually tell pitchers, if you're throwing and you're getting above a 2 or a 3 out of 10, that that's not normal, it's not expected, it's not something that can be just swept under the rug with the classic saying of, "There's no crying in baseball," and that it's something that probably you should look into. But if you're having a little bit of soreness, 1 or 2 out of 10 with heavy use six innings of pitching, that's probably very normal and something that you could expect with this particular sport.

Interviewer: How do you, when you do the 1 to 10 ranking, help somebody understanding like what a 1 what might be? Because somebody's 1 might be somebody else's 6.

Dr. Chalmers: Well, no, I think you're right. I mean, I think this is always the issue with pain is there's no objective measure of pain. We have no way to measure that in a way that can be comparable between patients. We have the subjective scale. Usually, the ways that we qualify that are, you know, the number, which can be hard, the words which to say mild, moderate, severe, mild being kind of a 0 to 3, moderate being 4 to 6, and severe being 7 to 10. And then the other way we use this is the scale called the Wong-Baker Scale. It has this . . . you know, starts with a smiley face at zero and like a very unhappy face at 10. I usually think of 2 out of 10 as being a place where there's still maybe a little bit of a smile if you have a really good game, but definitely there's some grimacing if things get bad. And if you start to get to the place where there's no longer a smile on your face, then probably it's too much.

Interviewer: And that's during. What about pain afterward? How long until that pain would go away for kind of the average player?

Dr. Chalmers: Well, usually what I tell people is that you should be able to do what you're doing in a reproducible way every other day. So if you feel like I could pitch like this every other day, then that's a right amount. If you feel like, "Ah, I need four days to recover from this pitching outing because it was so painful or took that much recovery," then what you're doing is too much.

Interviewer: And you said, you know, the saying is, "There's no crying in baseball," and sometimes pitchers tend to be a little tougher than the rest. If somebody is having elbow pain above the threshold you described, what are some of the downsides to not having that looked at?

Dr. Chalmers: Yeah, there are definitely downsides to just pitching through significant pain. The significant pain can be a sign of a substantial injury to the elbow. So, for instance, if you do have ligament tear and you're trying to just work through it, I've definitely seen players that years later have developed arthritis in their elbow or they have bones spurs that have worked to kind of help the elbow to stabilize even though the ligament is not functioning properly. So there's definitely a downside to thinking, "I'm just going to push through this."

Interviewer: And then, what about the repair? Some of these elbow surgeries can take a long time for patients to recover. Do you think that plays into why perhaps sometimes pitchers choose to play through it, because they don't want to be out of the game for any period of time?

Dr. Chalmers: Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it, is that pitchers think, "Oh, I can't afford to take 12 to 18 months off." So, if you know that there's a solution that can get you back in six months, that's the length of the offseason, and I don't think you need to worry so much about, "Oh, I'm going to lose next season." So it's definitely worth if you're having pain thinking, the very least get it looked at the end of the season, to see maybe if there is something that can be done that could still you get back in time for next year.

Interviewer: Yeah, and new procedures are coming along all the time that have shorter recovery periods. So even if you are of the opinion or if you've heard, "Well, if I get this done, I'm going to be out for 24 months," that might not be the case anymore.

Dr. Chalmers: Oh absolutely. And not only that but if you're listening to this and it's two years from now, let me tell you, it's going to be even better, because we've got all sorts of things coming down the line that will help to bring down recovery periods for pitchers in the future.

Interviewer: Yeah. So, if you have some elbow pain while you're pitching, there is something you can do about it and actually something you should do about it. And there's a new procedure that might be the thing that you need.

Dr. Peter Chalmers is an orthopedic surgeon. He's an elbow specialist. He's also the current team physician for University of Utah baseball and Salt Lake City Bees Triple-A baseball. So if somebody does have elbow pain while they're pitching, where do you start with that diagnosis, Dr. Chalmers?

Dr. Chalmers: Yeah. Absolutely. So elbow pain during pitching, it's not normal to have really, really a sore elbow with pitching. And there can be a couple of different causes, and some of them can be problematic for the future for a pitcher. So, definitely, I think it's worth, after a period of rest, if the pain doesn't go away, seeing someone to be fully evaluated with, you know, having someone take a look at the elbow, and then potentially getting an MRI to take a look at the cartilage and the ligaments within the elbow.

Interviewer: All right. And if the condition happens to be something called an ulnar collateral ligament injury, then there's a procedure that's been used for a long time called Tommy John surgery. Tell me a little bit about that, and then we're going to talk about the alternative, which could be better for some patients.

Dr. Chalmers: Yeah. Absolutely. So, for a long period of time, if you tore your ulnar collateral ligament, the ligament on the inside of the elbow that basically holds the upper arm and the lower bones together when you pitch a baseball, if you don't have that ligament, those bones try and fall apart, and it's basically not possible to pitch a baseball. If you tore that ligament, historically, then your career was just over.

And there was a pitcher named Tommy John, who had that injury, and he went to a surgeon who said, "Well, there's got to be something we can do," and they invented this procedure to reconstruct or rebuild the ligament using a tendon graft. And that actually works pretty well, but it has a very long recovery. It takes about a year to get back to play because the new tendon has to become a ligament over the top of the old ligament. And that process is very slow.

So that was the historic way that we would treat ulnar collateral ligament injuries, and the pitcher that first underwent it, his name was Tommy John. So they're commonly referred to as the Tommy John ligament or Tommy John surgery.

Interviewer: And now there's a new procedure. So I've heard that considered called reconstruction, and now there's a new procedure that actually just repairs the ligament and has some better outcomes. So tell me a little bit about that.

Dr. Chalmers: The good thing about many of these ligament tears is often the ligament is torn right off of either the upper arm bone or lower arm bone side. And the ligament itself is still good quality tissue. So, historically, we would replace that whole ligament with a new tendon graft.

The new procedure is to repair the patient's own ligament and allow their own ligament to serve as their ligament going forward. That has a much quicker recovery and can get pitchers back to play in six months. So that's been a huge advance in our treatment for this injury and has certainly, for a lot of our players, granted them ability to get back to another season or even sometimes to get two seasons in depending on the timing.

Interviewer: So, when you're working with a pitcher, how do you determine which one of these two that you're going to use?

Dr. Chalmers: So there's a number of factors that go into that. Certainly, the appearance of the ligament on the MRI and the location of the tear play a role, but often during surgery, we'll also assess the quality of the tissue. And if the tissue is robust enough, then we can use the patient's own tissue to do the repair.

Interviewer: If it is an option, then is it just as good as the Tommy John surgery? You said, definitely, you could get back to playing faster. Is it as a robust of a repair?

Dr. Chalmers: It may be better.

Interviewer: Oh.

Dr. Chalmers: Some of our early data suggests that the rates of return to play may be higher after repair than they are after reconstruction.

Interviewer: And I understand another advantage of the ligament repair is if you have a younger athlete, that this would be an option where Tommy John surgery would not be an option. Tell me about that.

Dr. Chalmers: Yeah. Definitely, younger athletes have the highest capacity for healing. And so, in a younger athlete, this surgery can work very, very well, and that's who it's been performed in mostly to date. But in someone who's really young, if they have open growth plates, you may be concerned about performing a surgery with a ligament graft, where we may have to drill tunnels in the bone that may disrupt the growth in the future. So this is a nice option for that patient population.

Interviewer: And what does the recovery look like then? You said that the recovery is faster. You know, Tommy John surgery could take up to a year. How fast is this recovery, and what's the rehabilitation process like?

Dr. Chalmers: So as early as two weeks out from surgery, the patient begins moving their elbow. About a month from surgery, they begin strengthening. And the whole goal here is that you have to start strengthening early because as early as three months out from surgery, the pitchers will start throwing again.

Interviewer: Wow.

Dr. Chalmers: And the goal then is to get back to full play with full velocity, pitching full games by six months.

Interviewer: That sounds pretty amazing. Is that pretty amazing from your perspective as an orthopedic surgeon?

Dr. Chalmers: It's a huge advance. It's a huge change over the year, sometimes 18-month recovery we saw historically with reconstruction surgery.

Interviewer: Are there downsides to this type of repair?

Dr. Chalmers: Well, it's a relatively new option, and so we don't have 5 or 10-year outcomes with it so far. But so far, it appears to have few downsides as compared to the reconstruction. There had been some concern that if you do this surgery, it may make another surgery in the future more difficult. And so far, those have not appeared to be true, but there have been very few of those performed because it works so well.

Interviewer: And it sounds like this is a very specialized procedure still at this point. What advice would you have for somebody choosing an orthopedic surgeon to do this type of procedure?

Dr. Chalmers: Well, I think that one of the most important things patients need to understand is that surgery itself is a technical skill, and it's important to find a surgeon that you feel like performs enough of those procedures to feel competent at it. So, as a result, I think when you look for a procedure that's less common like this, you need to find a surgeon that feels comfortable and performs enough of them, that they'll have already worked through the kinks and make sure that they're not going to have any problems performing this procedure for you.

That's one of the benefits of coming to a place like the University of Utah, where you have specialists in a large variety of areas. It allows each of us doctors to find a smaller niche and then, as a result, to be better at what we do.

Interviewer: I want to talk a little bit about this procedure. So what is, in your mind, the youngest patient that you would do this type of a procedure on?

Dr. Chalmers: One of the things that is unique about this area of the elbow is that right above the ligament is a growth plate. So for people who are skeletally immature, it's very rare to have the ligament be injured. And the vast majority of those that are skeletally immature, the growth plate itself sees most of the injury, if there is an injury. As a result, we very rarely perform this procedure for anyone under the age of 14 really.

Interviewer: Is there anything else about this procedure that you feel that a patient or a patient's parents would be interested in hearing that I missed?

Dr. Chalmers: One of the things that I think is really interesting about this procedure and really important for people to understand is that we've talked historically about the reconstruction and the tissue within the reconstruction as though we can make you a new ligament. But I will tell you that the tissue that we bring in from somewhere else is not the same as what you were born with. It doesn't have the same nerve fibers. It doesn't have the same pressure fibers.

And we demonstrated that actually pretty elegantly recently in a study we did with the Angels, where we looked at the changes in reconstructed ligaments as compared to non-reconstructed ligaments over the course of a single season or off-season on ultrasound, and found actually that the ligaments that had undergone a prior reconstruction respond differently to stress than native ligaments. And I think that's probably because they don't have all of their normal sensors within them.

So one of the big benefits of this procedure is that it preserves all that. It preserves all the normal pressure sensors and nerve fibers within your own ligament and allows it to respond normally to stress in the future. So that's a real benefit of this procedure over the reconstruction, and one reason why I think we're probably going to head more and more in this direction in probably a lot of areas of our field in the future.

Interviewer: Are you working out from home with exercise bands? Well, you might want to watch out for this injury.

Dr. Troy Madsen is an Emergency Room physician at University of Utah Health. And a lot of us are trying to get in some exercise at home, and we might reach for those exercise bands. But, Dr. Madsen, I understand that there could be some risk working out with those exercise bands. Tell me more about that.

Dr. Madsen: You know, Scot, I have used exercise bands, and this is a risk I've never really considered, but apparently there is an increase in risk and injury to the eye that has been something that's been noted since the pandemic started. So what we're seeing, I think, more and more people are not going to the gym, they're working out from home, and a great tool is a resistance band. If you've ever used this, it's like a giant elastic band. You know, these things are huge. You put it around your foot, and then maybe you're leaning back or doing something with your leg, all kinds of different things, stretching, strengthening.

Well, at the University of Miami, they actually published their experience with seeing multiple patients come to the Emergency Department with injuries to their eyes from these resistance bands. So the title of this article is "Ocular Trauma Secondary to Exercise Resistance Bands During the COVID-19 Pandemic," published in the "American Journal of Emergency Medicine."

And you can imagine how this can happen. I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but let's say you wrap it around your foot, and you're stretching your leg out, and that thing is really tight. And then, maybe you've got socks on or something, and it slips off your foot and flips back and hits you in the eye.

Interviewer: Oh. Ow. Oh.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, sounds miserable. Sounds absolutely miserable.

So they reported their experience in the "American Journal of Emergency Medicine," and they talked about 11 patients they had seen, and these were not minor injuries to the eye. So they said 11 patients, 14 eyes, so that means several of these patients had both eyes injured. Eighty-two percent of these patients had a hyphema.

So a hyphema is a pretty big deal. That's where you get blood behind the cornea. And, you know, if you ever look in the mirror, you see the cornea, you see your iris, the colored part of your eye. The cornea is the clear part over the top of that. And if you ever see blood there, it just looks like just this red line that's filling up behind there, that's a pretty big deal. That's a serious injury.

And then, vitreous hemorrhage in 36% of these patients. That's blood back behind the iris, back in kind of the main part of the eye. That can really affect your vision. Potentially, if it causes enough damage, potentially have long-term effects. Same thing with a hyphema if it's not treated.

So these are not minor injuries, but they saw a number of these, and just given the number they've seen, they reported on it in the "American Journal of Emergency Medicine" to make people aware that things are happening with resistance bands.

Interviewer: All right. So not happening to, necessarily, a large number of people that we know of, but is in the realm of possibility of happening apparently.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. And I think the reason they published this and their conclusion was, if you're using a resistance band, wear glasses or consider wearing goggles. I mean, it may seem like overkill. It is something that emergency departments are seeing. This is one emergency department's experience. I'm sure it's happening elsewhere. I have to be honest. I have not seen this in the ER yet, but if we talk to some of our ophthalmologists, my guess is that they probably have. So it's out there, it's happening. You know, takeaway, be aware of it and consider wearing some glasses or goggles if you're using a resistance band.

Interviewer: Yeah, or consider just making sure that you're looking at how you're using it, and "If it was to slip right now, would it slip back and snap me in the eye?" And is there an adjustment you can do in your form that would, you know, prevent that from happening?

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, exactly.

Interviewer: Travis Nolan is an athletic trainer that works for the University of Utah Health Orthopedic Center and also works with high school athletes here in the valley. And the question today is if an athlete gets a fracture, should you always go get that x-rayed? Now, I threw on a trick word there, Travis. I said "always," right?

Travis: Yes, yeah, yeah.

Interviewer: So maybe not always. But first of all, you were saying that you've got stories of people who got a fracture, didn't get it x-rayed, didn't get it taken care of, and then it really impacted them later in their life. Give me an example of how that might happen.

Travis: I ended up coming in over this summer just to do some check-up on the school I work at and things like that, and this athlete pops in my room. And he wasn't really thinking about it much. He was doing some lifting and just experiencing some slight pain in his wrist. And he's like, "Hey, man. Is this normal? I took a little follow-on a couple of weeks ago." He actually did ended up going to see somebody. He was instructed to come back in if it wasn't getting better, and the athlete didn't do that. And so after evaluating it, I was pretty concerned for a fracture still present in his wrist.

And so we sent him back in. And I guess, long story short, since that second referral, getting him back into a doctor again, he has actually had four different surgeries on his wrist trying to restore normal function and trying to properly heal the bone that broke. And so he ended up breaking his scaphoid bone. And for those that have broken it or know about that bone, I'm sure they know the complications that can come from breaking that bone, and then it not healing properly because that bone can lose blood supply. And when that happens, it's called necrosis. And so part of that bone can sort of die off. He, to this day, still has trouble playing athletics. It has affected him in class, in school, writing, typing, so many aspects of his life, carrying things, lifting a backpack. And so he is definitely one of my big advocates when I have to tell other athletes to go get an x-ray, and he'll back me on that a lot of the time, so yeah.

Interviewer: So, for young high school athletes, are there some fractures that tend to occur more often that if it does occur, that is definitely a reason you want to go see somebody, ask for an x-ray? What are those kind of common fractures that could really give you problems down the road if you don't take care of them almost immediately?

Travis: Yeah, the ankle. So whether or not it's from twisting your ankle, getting it caught up in a pile, or if you're a basketball athlete, very common to come down on top of somebody's foot after you jump up into the air, and then any kind of fracture around the ankle bone. So whether it's a small chip off your tibia or fibula, those are sort of common when it comes to spraining your ankle. And most of the time, why doctors recommend x-rays for ankle sprain is because you can get . . . whether it's a small piece of your ligament sort of pulls off a little piece of bone, that's a common area to fracture as well.

The other area of the body that is another big one to go get checked out is called the base of your fifth metatarsal. So that's on the outside of your foot there. And that's a special bone because it's sort of just like the one on our wrist where if we don't catch it in time, it can also go through that sort of necrosis. And it's called a dancer's fracture, actually, because it happens in dance quite frequently. And so that's one of those areas where if you do have pain on the outside of your foot sort of near the . . . we call it the base of our fifth metatarsal. If you have pain in that location, that's a very important one to go get evaluated and x-rayed because it can go through that necrosis process.

And then also, they actually are seen quite often in the military. They're called marcher's fracture. So it's at second or third metatarsal in your foot, and that's the same thing. It's going to be those repetitive stress motions. So whether it's marching, running, jumping, that's another very common area in athletics or the sports world to see a fracture in.

Interviewer: So I noticed that these common fractures in athletics that you believe should be x-rayed seem to be around the wrists, ankles, and the feet, the smaller bone.

Travis: Yeah.

Interviewer: Yeah. So those are the ones that if you don't get them looked at, x-rayed, follow your doctor's instructions can really kind of mess things up in the future for you not only in athletics, but in regular life as well. And I'd imagine a lot of those you don't even know that there's a fracture. You probably . . . just pain. You thought maybe just strained something or sprained something. Is that accurate?

Travis: When athletes have a bigger emotional response, it's pretty easy to convince someone, like, "Hey, we should go get an x-ray on this," like, "You're in a lot of pain right now." It's more time those athletes that they're able to tolerate it. They're sort of pushing through it, they're playing with it still, or they come in and they're, like, "Dude, this is something I can deal with." And you have to have that conversation and you have to educate them on, "Hey, look. It's not about you missing a couple of games." This is about your long-term health, especially for those important areas, whether it's the scaphoid, the base of the fifth. There are some areas in your body where if you don't get them checked out and treated properly, they will cause long-term complications. You will have to get multiple surgeries on them in order to try restore normal function in your body.

Interviewer: And if the athlete is experiencing that, how much time do they have to go get the x-ray? Now, I know at University of Utah Health, we have a walk-in orthopedic center, which is great because you could just walk in, tell somebody what's going on, and they could do an x-ray right there. If they need to have a couple of days in order to arrange that, did you have a couple of days to do that or you really want to get it checked sooner than later?

Travis: Yeah. So can you wait overnight? Sure. Should you wait the entire weekend and then maybe go get it checked out on Monday? Those are some things that I probably wouldn't recommend unless you've been advised and it's already been evaluated by somebody, but make sure you're getting evaluated by a professional that can give you recommendations on, "Hey, this is one of those high-risk areas and this is why I would go get an x-ray tonight instead of waiting over the weekend."

updated: December 8, 2022
originally published: March 3, 2021

Interviewer: How to handle a knee injury. Dr. Julia Rawlings practices primary care sports medicine and also pediatric emergency medicine, and she is one of the physicians that you would find at the walk-in orthopedic clinic at University of Utah Health. I wanted to talk about knee injuries and young athletes actually. What are some common ways that young athletes can injure their knees? What specific sports or activities do you see?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So it's really common to have a knee injury when you're playing sports, particularly contact sports. But severe injuries, including the ACL, don't always have to be from contact. So we typically see knee injuries that are acute, meaning they happen from a trauma, when you're doing an activity where there's either contact or you change directions quickly, so you're pivoting, you're shifting, you're changing your weight, and the knee can kind of buckle on you and get injured. In people that do more endurance-type sports, like cross country runners, we tend to see more chronic knee pain just from overuse.

Interviewer: Got you. So you kind of covered some of the common injuries to the knee. What could be handled at home without a clinic visit? And then we'll get to when you should perhaps consider coming in.

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So starting with an acute injury, meaning that's something you were out doing your sport, you were doing something, and all of a sudden you felt the knee pop, or you twisted it, or something happened. A couple of clues that I would give to go ahead and come in to be seen is, one, if you're having a hard time walking on your leg, then we would really like you to be seen sooner rather than later. We'd like to get X-rays and make sure there's nothing that's broken and then do a good examine and check out the ligaments and the meniscus of the knee.

Another clue is if your knee gets pretty swollen, then that means that there's something significant going on in your knee that should be seen sooner rather than later. Two more other clues, things that I like to ask people about and look for. If your knee feels like it's buckling under you, it's giving out when you walk, then there's the potential that every time it buckles, that we're doing more damage. And in that case, we'd like to get you on crutches and get you into a knee brace. Or if the knee is getting stuck or locked, meaning you can't bend it or you can't straighten it very well without kind of forcing it, those are all things that we'd want to see you sooner rather than later for.

Interviewer: And then when somebody comes into the clinic with some of those more serious symptoms, as you said, what does the clinic do?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So if you have, say, a big swollen knee and we're worried about bigger injuries to the ACL or to the meniscus, something like that, what we would generally do is start off with X-rays, make sure there's nothing that's broken, and then we would do our exam, get a feel for what we think is going on, and then generally get you set up in a knee brace that's appropriate for the injury you have, plus or minus crutches. And then often, patients with significant injuries we'll get set up for an MRI to check out the soft tissue structures, which we can't see on X-ray, and get a definitive diagnosis. And then depending on what we see on our exam, we'll either get you set up with one of the non-operative sports medicine providers for follow-up or our sports medicine surgeons. My practice myself is I typically just let people know what their MRI shows, and then depending on what they need done, I'll then schedule the appointment with the appropriate follow-up person.

Interviewer: And when people come in, how often would you say that they could just come into the clinic and that's kind of it? It's just going to take a little bit of rest, and they're going to recover from their injury.

Dr. Rawlings: You know, it depends a little bit, I think, on the age demographic. So we do see a fair amount of people that come in with an acute knee injury that have just flared arthritis, and they don't actually have an injury to the ligament or something that we would need to do an MRI or surgery for. And those patients we really treat with physical therapy, maybe a steroid injection, and kind of getting them back to functioning, hopefully, so that we can prolong the longevity of their knee. In those cases, then, yeah, all they need really is just that visit in the orthopedic injury clinic and then a follow-up appointment down the road with a primary care sports medicine person or a sports medicine surgeon.

Interviewer: Are there any final thoughts you would want a listener to know about the clinic, or knee injuries, and how to handle that or take care of it?

Dr. Rawlings: I think definitely when in doubt, especially when it's an injury that's happened within the last day or two, come on in. We'll be happy to take a look at it. And if you're getting a chronic injury from training for a marathon, or in kids, they can often get growth plate injuries, again, if they've happened in the last three months, we're happy to see you in injury clinic for more of a chronic developing problem as well.

Interviewer: When should you consider University of Utah Health's Orthopaedic Injury Clinic over perhaps a visit to the ER or urgent care, or is it something you can handle on your own? That's what we want to find out today.

Dr. Julia Rawlings is a primary care sports medicine and also practices pediatric emergency medicine, but it's that sports medicine doctor that we really want to talk to today. So the first thing I want to find out is what are some of the common orthopedic injuries a person should consider using the Orthopaedic Clinic versus an ER or urgent care?

Dr. Rawlings: The Orthopaedic Injury Clinic is a great place to go if you have an acute injury, meaning that you have had an injury that you've sustained recently. We're actually willing to see people that have had an injury anytime in the last three months, but preferably not something that's chronic and going on. We'd rather you go ahead and make an appointment with a regular physician during regular hours, although it can be at the Orthopaedic Center.

Specifically, things that are good for the Injury Clinic. So we see a lot of injuries from the ski slopes. We see people that have been playing different sports, or running, biking. We see some football injuries. Anything that's kind of acute. Anything that could go to an urgent care can go to the Orthopaedic Injury Clinic if it's a musculoskeletal injury.

A couple of things we don't see at the Injury Clinic. We don't do stitches there. So if you're bleeding and you think you need stitches, an urgent care or the emergency department would be more appropriate. Also, if your bone is pretty crooked, it's probably a better idea to go to the emergency room. We can do some local numbing medicine to set some easy broken bones, fingers, and things like that, but larger fractures would need to be seen in the Emergency Department for sedation.

Interviewer: And what kind of diagnostic tools do you have there that kind of makes you the choice for some of these as opposed to perhaps an emergency room or an urgent care?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So the Injury Clinic is fantastic because we have access to x-ray on-site, and we can see those images back as soon as they are done. And depending on the time of the day, we actually can often get the reads back from a musculoskeletal radiologist within a few hours. Sometimes those reads don't come back until the next day. We don't have the capability to do CT scans at the Injury Clinic. We do have access to scheduling MRIs in the building, but that's not done the same time as the visit.

So one great thing about the Injury Clinic is you get kind of a full package. So you get your x-rays. You could get an MRI set up. We have all of the braces and everything that you would need, crutches, things like that. And then, we can get you set up with a specialist, whether that's a sports medicine surgeon, foot and ankle surgeon, or one of our non-operative primary care sports medicine physicians. We will actually make that appointment for you while you're there for follow-up.

Interviewer: So the clinic, it sounds like a better option than perhaps making an appointment. It can be difficult to get in sometimes with an orthopedic doctor at times. So this clinic, it's primarily walk-in, is that how it works, or do you have to make an appointment?

Dr. Rawlings: It is walk-in. It's a little bit tricky right now with coronavirus going on, but, typically, it is walk-in. They are switching to appointments during this period of time, but that's going to be very temporary. Generally, it is walk-in, first come, first served.

Interviewer: How can a person decide if an injury is something that they can treat at home or they can just try to see if it's going to get better versus coming into the clinic or seeing a professional?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So we're always happy to check anything out if you're not sure. A couple of tips that just come to my mind. One is if you have an injury that's bad enough you can't really walk on it or bear weight on it, that's something that should be seen, probably get an x-ray, make sure you haven't broken a bone. Or if you really can't move your shoulder or can't move your arm in some way. If you twist your ankle, and you're walking on it okay, and it gets a little bit swollen, that's something that you could probably wait on at home and see how you do. But, yeah, if you have a hard time moving a body part, that's a good time to go in.

Interviewer: All right. Are there some injuries that really you do want to have looked at, otherwise it could affect you and your mobility in the future?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So there are definitely, particularly injuries that involve the joints. We often like to get a sooner look at what's going on rather than a later look, just because things can happen down the road that can lead to arthritis if they're not treated early. That being said, a lot of musculoskeletal injuries aren't emergencies. Meaning, even if you get something like a torn ACL, which is considered a pretty big injury in the sports world, if you're diagnosed several days after that happens, in general, that's okay. It's not something that absolutely needs to go to the emergency department or into the Injury Clinic even the same day you have it. You'd really be okay to get yourself a pair of crutches from the garage and come in a couple of days later.

Interviewer: For the particularly injury-prone that might have some crutches?

Dr. Rawlings: Exactly. There are a lot of people with crutches in their garage from siblings, so.

Interviewer: Any final thoughts that you have when it comes to the walk-in Orthopaedic Clinic? It's such a great resource. I was able to utilize it. I had a shoulder injury. I'm not even going to go into how that happened because it was not cool, it was not athletic. But it was great because I could go in, they were able to look at it, make sure that I didn't, you know, do any permanent damage, which I didn't, and then, you know, gave me a reference to go to a physical therapist to do some exercises to rehabilitate it, so.

Dr. Rawlings: I think it's a fantastic clinic. I mean, it's staffed by people that are trained in musculoskeletal medicine, so we have a little bit of an advantage over lots of the urgent cares that are more kind of general medicine, that we treat a lot of musculoskeletal injuries. We can get you set up with physical therapy pretty easily. And one or two days of the week, we actually have a physical therapist with us in-clinic. So if your injury is appropriate for that, we can even get you started on physical therapy the night that you come in. So I think it's a fantastic resource.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Dr. Ernie Rimer is the Director of Sports Science for the University of Utah Athletics Department. He works with elite athletes to help them get in fighting shape for game day. But it came as a surprise to Troy that Ernie isn't built like a line-backer.

Ernie explains that he's a sports scientists and a self-proclaimed "recovering strength and conditioning coach." 10 years ago, he worked out to look big. His goal was to be one of those massive guys, but as he focused more on the science of fitness and matured, his goals have changed.

Ernie says, "I stopped caring about how I looked when it comes to my fitness and I started caring more about what fitness does for me in my normal life."

For Ernie. Health means having the proper physical fitness and mental state to live an extraordinary life and career. For him, it's about having the physical fitness to pursue the things in life he enjoys and be in the right frame of mind to engage in fulfilling activities on a daily basis. The Health Benefits of Strength Training

The US Department of Health and Human Services recommends American adults should engage in strength training at least twice a week. For best results, these workouts should be moderate to intense in difficulty and target all muscle groups.

Currently, only 30% of Americans are actually getting that exercise in every week.

A lack of strength training in men can have real consequences. Without strength training, after age 30, men start losing 3-5% of their lean muscle mass. Not only will that impact a guy's day to day functionality, but lean muscle is also the body's metabolic engine. Less muscle means fewer calories burned every day.

On the flip side, regular consistent strength training can provide a lot of benefits:

• Increase in daily physical performance
• Maintenance of bone density and muscle mass
• Improved joint health
• Increased metabolism
• Better control of Type 2 Diabetes
• Improved balance
• Releases endorphins
• Better sleep patterns
• Increased executive brain function and productivity

Additionally, moderate strength-training just a couple of times a week may help you live longer. According to the American Journal of Epidemiology, strength training is just as important, if not more than cardiovascular training. Moderate strength training can lead to a 23% risk of death from any disease and a reduction of 31% of cancer-related deaths. Start Your Training At a Level You Can Maintain

Ernie is used to working with elite athletes, but that doesn't mean he can't pull from his experience trying to build programs for family and friends. Years ago, he used to give his friends and family the same crazy strength and conditioning programs similar to the ones he gave his athletes. He found that there was no way for a non-athlete, regular guy to keep up with these types of regimens, so his approach changed.

"Your strength regiment has to be sustainable," says Ernie. For him, the plan needs to be something he can keep up with regularly and feel good about. He's no longer looking to punish himself - or his friends - in the gym anymore. And more importantly, it's important to find a plan that isn't so time-consuming or intense that it begins taking away from the things he loves to do in life.

So should a regular guy start? Ernie doesn't recommend anyone go out, buy an expensive gym membership and try to "crush it." Especially if they are relative sedentary now. The best strategy is to start with trying to increase your current activity level at least a few times a week. Shoot to do a little bit of basic resistance training two to three times a week. Keep the training plan short and simple to begin with. It's important that you can get comfortable with a basic routine before you start taking your lifts "to the extreme."

Remember, just because you're working out harder, doesn't mean you're getting more benefits. While a moderate resistance training plan can provide a ton of benefits and reduce mortality, research has shown that too much strength training can have an increase in all-cause mortality. There's a sweet spot to strength training. Shoot to find yours. The 5 Strength Exercise Routine the Scientist Recommends

Dr. Ernie Rimer suggests a relatively simple routine of five exercises to help anyone, at any level to reap the health benefits of a strength training program. The plan focuses on multi-joint exercises that work multiple muscle groups and joints in the body. "They give you more bang for your buck," says Ernie. These are the exercises he suggests everyone start with first:

1. Athletic/Acrobatic Starter
   Start your workout with something that pushes your physical ability and gets the blood moving. Jump up on a box or step. Jump up and down. Run up and down a short flight of stairs.

2. Lower Body Strength
   Find an exercise that uses all of your lower body muscles. Start with bodyweight or resistance bands before moving to weights. Try squats, lunges, or step-ups to simultaneously workout your entire lower body.

3. Posterior Chain
   Your posterior chain is the complex of muscles that starts at your lower back, then runs down your glutes, hamstrings and calves. These are some of the biggest muscles in the body and they help with posture and body movement. These muscles help you maintain proper form while lifting, so it's important for them to be strong before moving up to a more intense lifting program.

Exercises like the hip hinge, Romanian deadlift, and "good-morning" work all the muscles in the posterior chain.

4. Upper Body 'Push'
   Your upper body is broken up into two groups. The "push muscles" include the chest, shoulders, deltoids, and triceps. Work them up by trying push-ups, a bench press, or overhead press. These exercises work a lot of these muscles all at once.

5. Upper Body 'Pull'
   The other upper body muscles are all involved in "pulling" motions. These include your upper back, lats, biceps and forearms. Try exercises like rows and curls to work this muscle group.

The number of reps and sets of this routine should be custom to where you currently are in your physical fitness. Focus on taking one step forward in your fitness at a time. Remember, just a moderate amount of strength training twice a week can have huge benefits.

A beginner should start with a number of sets and reps they can sustain and stick with it for a prolonged amount of time. Even if it's just one set of each exercise, one time a week. If that's a step forward for you, then start there.

"We want to get you further," says Ernie, "But it's important to take a step you can commit to and sustain."

As you get into a routine of strength training, you can eventually work towards two to three sets of each of the exercises, two to three times a week. Do These Exercises Anywhere with Any Time You Have

You don't need to carve out a couple of hours a week in your busy schedule or spend a lot of money on a pricey gym membership to start strength training. These exercises can be done at home with bodyweight with whatever time you have available.

Look around your place and get creative. There are plenty of ways you can complete the five exercises without much equipment. For the athletic component, find some stairs in your house or a sturdy chair or coffee table. If Ernie's kids can jump up and down from a coffee table why can't you?

For the other exercises, try bodyweight exercises. Simple squats can work the lower body. Good-mornings for your posterior chain. Pushups and pull-ups for the push and pull of the upper body. Start with exercises you can easily do next to your bedside in the morning.

Additionally, bodyweight exercises are a great place to start. In strength training, form is key. If you're lifting a heavy weight with bad form, you can seriously injure yourself. Bodyweight exercises are much safer to begin with. You can get quite intense without as much risk of injury. Bodyweight exercises are also a great way to learn the correct form of an exercise before you add weight.

You don't have to devote hours of your week to this training to get in shape. For example, Scot is currently in a master's program and a lot of his time is spent doing course work. He takes a short 5 minute break every hour when he's studying. He fits in a few bodyweight exercises during his breaks to keep his body strong.

According to Ernie, these small bouts of training can be as effective, if not more, than a solid block of training time. "Exercise Microdosing" is a big area of research today in sports medicine. Sports scientists have seen results that several short doses of strength training in a day may be more beneficial for bone health, muscle development and joint health than a longer, sustained amount of time.

Keep it simple. Fit it in when you can. Aim to improve. How to Get Motivated and Stay Motivated

For a lot of guys, getting motivated and staying motivated to do any strength training can be difficult. If you're going to see the results, you need to be able to keep with a strength training regiment long term. Not just a few weeks.

Dr. Rimer says there are a few strategies he suggests you try to stay motivated:

• Share Your Goals with Others - Let your friends, family, and significant others know what you're trying to do, why you're trying to do ti, and ask them to hold you accountable.

• Find a Workout Partner - Sometimes having a partner willing to go through the workouts with you can help you stay motivated to work out regularly.

• Focus on Constantly Improving - rather than watching the numbers on the scale or at the end of a dumbbell, focus on the abilities of your body. Can you lift a little more than you did last time? Is the workout getting easier to complete? That's a real improvement! Stay focused on the steps you are taking to become healthier, rather than how far you have to go to meet some ruler measurement.

Producer Mitch has tried strength training in the past and completely lost motivation. He searches online and finds plans and workout videos made by "internet muscle bros." He's tried their fitness crazy plans, choked down the supplements, watched his macros, and he still feels miserable and ends up quitting. He sometimes thinks he'll never be "one of those guys."

Dr. Ernie, he explains that this is the major disconnect a lot of guys face when they first start strength training. It's easy to try and make your goals focused on "looking strong," to aim to get the type of physique you see on the cover of magazines. But according to this sports scientist, that look shouldn't be the thing that motivates you.

"An exercise regimen should be about maintaining the fitness you need to facilitate an extraordinary life," says Ernie. Make your extraordinary life your primary motivation.

Ernie says that the "internet bros" online can be helpful in finding a strategy that works best for you. Focus on the advice they give, rather than what they look like. Focus on how their strategies can best benefit you and - most importantly - how their method can facilitate what you want to do with your life. Dr. Rimer's Megaphone Moment:

"This is Dr. Ernie Rimer on the first-ever Megaphone Moment on The Scope. Today I want to say if you want to get started. Make it simple. Sustainable. And make sure that it facilitates and extraordinary life." Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Troy has been working with a dog trainer and wonders if the same strategies can be used to train dogs can be used to train himself. Meanwhile, Scot is currently researching the very notion about men not caring about their health and finding it's way more complicated than he suspected. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Interviewer: Running from a doctor's perspective, that's next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is "From The Front Lines" with emergency room physician, Dr. Troy Madsen on The Scope. On The Scope.

Interviewer: When emergency room doctor, Troy Madsen, was thinking about running as his main exercise a few years ago, he was concerned about how it would affect his knees. So he did the research like any good doctor would do. And Dr. Madsen, what did you find out?

Dr. Madsen: Well, you know, like you said, my concern in running was, "Okay, great. I'm going to start running more." I said I'm going to run every day, do a couple miles every day, go from there, but in 10 years, I'm going to need a knee replacement. This is what I thought. This was what I grew up hearing. This is what people said. So I said to myself, you know, "I work in medicine, certainly I can look and see what kind of evidence there is for this. Are there any studies that have been done that show that runners have a much higher risk of needing knee replacements?" So the big concern here would be that you run a lot, you wear down the cartilage in your knees, you get osteoarthritis, which is bone on bone, and then at that point, it hurts too much, you need to have your knees replaced.

So it's a tough thing to study. You know, ideally, you would take a group of people and say, "You guys are going to run every day, you guys aren't. And then 10 years, we're going to see how your knees are doing." You can't do that. It's not practical. So you really just have to rely on people reporting how many knee issues they've had. Look at runners, look at non-runners.

Interestingly enough, at the time I looked, there were a few studies that had been done looking at this, and just this month, an editorial came out in the British Medical Journal that addressed exactly this question. So they summarize all the research that is out there. The bottom line is there is no convincing evidence that will tell you that runners have a higher risk of knee osteoarthritis and knee replacements.

The only thing they found, they said, okay, one study showed that in elite runners, they had a higher incidence of osteoarthritis where it was this bone on bone. This was one study that was done in the early 1990s. These were elite runners, meaning runners who had competed in Olympic marathons, and they had a little bit higher risk of this issue. I found studies that actually suggested in runners, they're 50% less likely to have any issues, meaning that maybe this running is actually helping the knees potentially helping build this cartilage up. You know, certainly, if you're having other injuries like ACL injuries or tearing ligaments, things like that, that's a different issue.

But just the whole wear and tear of running or this idea that you're just tearing your knees up, I can't find anything convincing that says, "Yeah, you're tearing your knees up, you're going to get bone-on-bone knees, and then in 10 years, you are going to need a knee replacement."

Interviewer: So had you found evidence to the contrary, would you be a runner right now?

Dr. Madsen: It's a great question. I don't know.

Interviewer: I'm trying to figure out if you're putting your money where your mouth is on this deal.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, you know, at the time, and I think for a long time, that was my excuse for not running. I'll tell you the reason I ran is because my wife made me commit to run a marathon because we're moving, and that was part of the deal, "If we're moving, you have to run a marathon." I think she thought I was going to say that there's no way I'm going to run a marathon, but I committed to do it, and I've kept running since then. I think partly knowing that, "Hey, you know, this is a great exercise. It's a great sport. It's a great life-long sport. And the whole knee issue, I'm convinced that, you know, based on the evidence I can find that running isn't going to tear your knees up." I just can't find anything that absolutely says, "Yeah, you're going to have lots of knee problems because of this."

Interviewer: What about like somebody's weight or other issues like that? How is that taken into account in these studies?

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, it's tough. Again, these are not ideal studies.

Interviewer: Sure.

Dr. Madsen: I mean, they're small studies. They're combining these studies to create what's called a meta-analysis where you combine data from lots of different studies. I don't know that they can really control for those factors for weight and look at a person's weight. Because you're talking about people who've been running for 20 years, can you account for their weight 20 years ago versus now? What different effects are there? I don't even have an answer.

Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. I would imagine, too, something else maybe to keep in mind. So I think this is good that if running is something that you do, that's great, continue to do it. If it's something you want to do, there doesn't seem to be a lot of compelling evidence it's going to cause knee issues. But I'd imagine it would be smart to be safe and, you know, make sure that you're in with a reasonable weight, and maybe even make sure that you're running form is good, that you're not heel striking and doing some of those sorts of things. Because the runners in the study conceivably would be doing those things.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. You don't want to force yourself into a sport. You want to make sure your heart is in good shape, that you're going to be able to handle it. Don't just go off the couch and go put in seven or eight miles. Like you said, you've got to consider all those factors. Find a sport you enjoy. But I think the bottom line from this is if you enjoy running, don't tell yourself you can't run or you can't run more because you're going to have major knee problems down the road. I just can't find anything that suggests that's the case.

Interviewer: And since you started years back, when you first started running, when you did this research, you've since run marathons, and how do the knees feel?

Dr. Madsen: Knees are great. Don't ask me that question after a marathon, but today the knees feel good. You know, after long runs, there's always the aches and pains.

Interviewer: Yeah, but not knees, right? It's usually muscular or . . .

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, it's usually muscular, it is. It is not the knees so much. Well, I'll take that back. I'd say usually about mile 24, 25, everything hurts.

Interviewer: Sure.

Dr. Madsen: And I'm telling myself, "I will never do this again." But, you know, you give it a day, you start to feel a little better, and then you're back at it.

Interviewer: And then for individuals that maybe currently run and they're thinking about wanting to run a little bit more, maybe they're kind of in this three to five-mile range, and they're afraid to go beyond that. Again, the research shows that probably not going to negatively affect you?

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. I think that's the big take home. But at the same time, keep in mind that if you're happy just doing three to five miles, keep doing it. You're getting the health benefits. And that's a whole different discussion. But if you're doing three to five miles, three times a week, you're doing great. And if you like it, if you're happy with it, keep doing it. If you want to increase those miles, maybe do a half marathon or something, feel free to do it.

Announcer: Have a question about a medical procedure? Want to learn more about a health condition? With over 2,000 interviews with our physicians and specialists, there's a pretty good chance you'll find what you want to know. Check it out at thescoperadio.com.