Search for tag: "orthopedic injury"

Interviewer: Now, if your child is complaining of leg pains, could it be growing pains, or is it something more serious?

Dr. Julia Rawlings is a nonoperative sports medicine physician here at University of Utah Health. And let's start with the type of leg pain I think just about every kid, at some point, experiences. One point or another, it seems pretty benign. What exactly is growing pain? What are growing pains, I guess?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So growing pains, the name came kind of early in the 1930s and 1940s when people thought that growth was related to these pains that children get, usually later in the afternoon, evening, or maybe even wakes them up at night. But we know now that it's not related to growth, but it's more likely just related to children being very active during the day. So it's just these pains that come on later in the day or at night, mostly from kind of overuse of muscles.

Interviewer: But it's not like the bones are stretching or anything like that. It's just . . .

Dr. Rawlings: No, it doesn't have anything to do with growing. It does happen in children, but it doesn't affect their growth. It's not directly related to growing.

Interviewer: My understanding is it's pretty normal for kids to be having this and just as part of, like, I guess being active and running around.

Dr. Rawlings: It's very common. And the places where it's most common, usually it happens in the calf, the thigh, or the back of the knee. So those are some of the spots that we look at.

Interviewer: Okay. And it's like an aching or just like . . . I guess, how do we know that it's like that kind of pain?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah, it's like an aching or a throbbing pain. Sometimes children will grab the back of their legs or grab their thighs or just be more cranky. It's usually at the end of the day. It can wake them up at night though.

Interviewer: And so your child's complaining of pain. I guess, as a parent, if you're worried, you know, what should you be on the lookout for to find out if it's something more than just typical growing pains?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So growing pains usually happen intermittently. So it can happen every night, but that's a little less common. So growing pains typically are intermittent. They're usually in both legs, not necessarily at the same time. And the child usually wakes up in the morning completely fine and running around like there's nothing wrong. Those are all very typical for growing pains.

Interviewer: So say a kid is, you know, maybe continually complaining about leg pain or maybe they're getting it through the day. As a parent, what are some of the signs and symptoms that you should be on the lookout for to kind of let you know this isn't growing pains, it's something more serious?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah, great question. So if your child is complaining of pain, particularly during the day, if they are complaining of pain in the same leg, if the pain stops them from participating in sports activities or from running with their friends, if they are limping with the pain during the day, or if you see anything else that seems abnormal, so swelling of the leg, redness of the leg, if they're getting fevers with it, all of that is something besides growing pains, and you should be seen for that.

Interviewer: And not to, say, worry parents, you know, prematurely, but what could be going on with their child?

Dr. Rawlings: So it could be something as simple as an overuse injury. Lots of times, in children that play sports, we see overuse injury at the growth plates actually. That's probably one of the more common things. If they're very active, say a teenager running, they could get a stress injury. They could just have tight muscles, and stretching could be helpful. All the way up to the more serious things that are very rare and uncommon, like childhood arthritis or bone cancer.

Interviewer: If your child is, say, showing some of these symptoms, what kind of doctor should you be going to, to, you know, treat the leg? Is it a primary care pediatrician? Is it a sports medicine specialist?

Dr. Rawlings: I think, initially, if your pain is kind of vague and you're not sure what's going on, starting with the pediatrician is a great place. If it's something more serious, like they're not limping, they can't get into the pediatrician, it is reasonable to go to an urgent care or the emergency department, particularly if they won't walk at all. We need to see what's happening. There are . . . sometimes toddlers will have a small fall and twist their leg, and they won't walk, and they'll have a little fracture that you won't even pick up on. And so that's one of the more common reasons we'll see toddlers stop walking, and that's something that can be taken care of either by a pediatrician, a nonoperative sports medicine provider, or in an urgent care emergency medicine setting.

Interviewer: And is there anything, maybe a home remedy, something they could try at home before they, say, take them into a doctor to maybe alleviate any of the pain that they're experiencing?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So if they're experiencing more of these growing pains, kind of intermittent pains in the evening or at night, you can do things like massage the legs, massage the muscles. Warm packs, heating pads are helpful. If it's severe, you can try some acetaminophen, Tylenol, or ibuprofen. And sometimes if it's pretty frequent, you can have them do some stretching during the day and see if that helps as well.

Interviewer: Are you working out from home with exercise bands? Well, you might want to watch out for this injury.

Dr. Troy Madsen is an Emergency Room physician at University of Utah Health. And a lot of us are trying to get in some exercise at home, and we might reach for those exercise bands. But, Dr. Madsen, I understand that there could be some risk working out with those exercise bands. Tell me more about that.

Dr. Madsen: You know, Scot, I have used exercise bands, and this is a risk I've never really considered, but apparently there is an increase in risk and injury to the eye that has been something that's been noted since the pandemic started. So what we're seeing, I think, more and more people are not going to the gym, they're working out from home, and a great tool is a resistance band. If you've ever used this, it's like a giant elastic band. You know, these things are huge. You put it around your foot, and then maybe you're leaning back or doing something with your leg, all kinds of different things, stretching, strengthening.

Well, at the University of Miami, they actually published their experience with seeing multiple patients come to the Emergency Department with injuries to their eyes from these resistance bands. So the title of this article is "Ocular Trauma Secondary to Exercise Resistance Bands During the COVID-19 Pandemic," published in the "American Journal of Emergency Medicine."

And you can imagine how this can happen. I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but let's say you wrap it around your foot, and you're stretching your leg out, and that thing is really tight. And then, maybe you've got socks on or something, and it slips off your foot and flips back and hits you in the eye.

Interviewer: Oh. Ow. Oh.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, sounds miserable. Sounds absolutely miserable.

So they reported their experience in the "American Journal of Emergency Medicine," and they talked about 11 patients they had seen, and these were not minor injuries to the eye. So they said 11 patients, 14 eyes, so that means several of these patients had both eyes injured. Eighty-two percent of these patients had a hyphema.

So a hyphema is a pretty big deal. That's where you get blood behind the cornea. And, you know, if you ever look in the mirror, you see the cornea, you see your iris, the colored part of your eye. The cornea is the clear part over the top of that. And if you ever see blood there, it just looks like just this red line that's filling up behind there, that's a pretty big deal. That's a serious injury.

And then, vitreous hemorrhage in 36% of these patients. That's blood back behind the iris, back in kind of the main part of the eye. That can really affect your vision. Potentially, if it causes enough damage, potentially have long-term effects. Same thing with a hyphema if it's not treated.

So these are not minor injuries, but they saw a number of these, and just given the number they've seen, they reported on it in the "American Journal of Emergency Medicine" to make people aware that things are happening with resistance bands.

Interviewer: All right. So not happening to, necessarily, a large number of people that we know of, but is in the realm of possibility of happening apparently.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. And I think the reason they published this and their conclusion was, if you're using a resistance band, wear glasses or consider wearing goggles. I mean, it may seem like overkill. It is something that emergency departments are seeing. This is one emergency department's experience. I'm sure it's happening elsewhere. I have to be honest. I have not seen this in the ER yet, but if we talk to some of our ophthalmologists, my guess is that they probably have. So it's out there, it's happening. You know, takeaway, be aware of it and consider wearing some glasses or goggles if you're using a resistance band.

Interviewer: Yeah, or consider just making sure that you're looking at how you're using it, and "If it was to slip right now, would it slip back and snap me in the eye?" And is there an adjustment you can do in your form that would, you know, prevent that from happening?

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, exactly.

Interviewer: Travis Nolan is an athletic trainer that works for the University of Utah Health Orthopedic Center and also works with high school athletes here in the valley. And the question today is if an athlete gets a fracture, should you always go get that x-rayed? Now, I threw on a trick word there, Travis. I said "always," right?

Travis: Yes, yeah, yeah.

Interviewer: So maybe not always. But first of all, you were saying that you've got stories of people who got a fracture, didn't get it x-rayed, didn't get it taken care of, and then it really impacted them later in their life. Give me an example of how that might happen.

Travis: I ended up coming in over this summer just to do some check-up on the school I work at and things like that, and this athlete pops in my room. And he wasn't really thinking about it much. He was doing some lifting and just experiencing some slight pain in his wrist. And he's like, "Hey, man. Is this normal? I took a little follow-on a couple of weeks ago." He actually did ended up going to see somebody. He was instructed to come back in if it wasn't getting better, and the athlete didn't do that. And so after evaluating it, I was pretty concerned for a fracture still present in his wrist.

And so we sent him back in. And I guess, long story short, since that second referral, getting him back into a doctor again, he has actually had four different surgeries on his wrist trying to restore normal function and trying to properly heal the bone that broke. And so he ended up breaking his scaphoid bone. And for those that have broken it or know about that bone, I'm sure they know the complications that can come from breaking that bone, and then it not healing properly because that bone can lose blood supply. And when that happens, it's called necrosis. And so part of that bone can sort of die off. He, to this day, still has trouble playing athletics. It has affected him in class, in school, writing, typing, so many aspects of his life, carrying things, lifting a backpack. And so he is definitely one of my big advocates when I have to tell other athletes to go get an x-ray, and he'll back me on that a lot of the time, so yeah.

Interviewer: So, for young high school athletes, are there some fractures that tend to occur more often that if it does occur, that is definitely a reason you want to go see somebody, ask for an x-ray? What are those kind of common fractures that could really give you problems down the road if you don't take care of them almost immediately?

Travis: Yeah, the ankle. So whether or not it's from twisting your ankle, getting it caught up in a pile, or if you're a basketball athlete, very common to come down on top of somebody's foot after you jump up into the air, and then any kind of fracture around the ankle bone. So whether it's a small chip off your tibia or fibula, those are sort of common when it comes to spraining your ankle. And most of the time, why doctors recommend x-rays for ankle sprain is because you can get . . . whether it's a small piece of your ligament sort of pulls off a little piece of bone, that's a common area to fracture as well.

The other area of the body that is another big one to go get checked out is called the base of your fifth metatarsal. So that's on the outside of your foot there. And that's a special bone because it's sort of just like the one on our wrist where if we don't catch it in time, it can also go through that sort of necrosis. And it's called a dancer's fracture, actually, because it happens in dance quite frequently. And so that's one of those areas where if you do have pain on the outside of your foot sort of near the . . . we call it the base of our fifth metatarsal. If you have pain in that location, that's a very important one to go get evaluated and x-rayed because it can go through that necrosis process.

And then also, they actually are seen quite often in the military. They're called marcher's fracture. So it's at second or third metatarsal in your foot, and that's the same thing. It's going to be those repetitive stress motions. So whether it's marching, running, jumping, that's another very common area in athletics or the sports world to see a fracture in.

Interviewer: So I noticed that these common fractures in athletics that you believe should be x-rayed seem to be around the wrists, ankles, and the feet, the smaller bone.

Travis: Yeah.

Interviewer: Yeah. So those are the ones that if you don't get them looked at, x-rayed, follow your doctor's instructions can really kind of mess things up in the future for you not only in athletics, but in regular life as well. And I'd imagine a lot of those you don't even know that there's a fracture. You probably . . . just pain. You thought maybe just strained something or sprained something. Is that accurate?

Travis: When athletes have a bigger emotional response, it's pretty easy to convince someone, like, "Hey, we should go get an x-ray on this," like, "You're in a lot of pain right now." It's more time those athletes that they're able to tolerate it. They're sort of pushing through it, they're playing with it still, or they come in and they're, like, "Dude, this is something I can deal with." And you have to have that conversation and you have to educate them on, "Hey, look. It's not about you missing a couple of games." This is about your long-term health, especially for those important areas, whether it's the scaphoid, the base of the fifth. There are some areas in your body where if you don't get them checked out and treated properly, they will cause long-term complications. You will have to get multiple surgeries on them in order to try restore normal function in your body.

Interviewer: And if the athlete is experiencing that, how much time do they have to go get the x-ray? Now, I know at University of Utah Health, we have a walk-in orthopedic center, which is great because you could just walk in, tell somebody what's going on, and they could do an x-ray right there. If they need to have a couple of days in order to arrange that, did you have a couple of days to do that or you really want to get it checked sooner than later?

Travis: Yeah. So can you wait overnight? Sure. Should you wait the entire weekend and then maybe go get it checked out on Monday? Those are some things that I probably wouldn't recommend unless you've been advised and it's already been evaluated by somebody, but make sure you're getting evaluated by a professional that can give you recommendations on, "Hey, this is one of those high-risk areas and this is why I would go get an x-ray tonight instead of waiting over the weekend."

updated: December 8, 2022
originally published: March 3, 2021

Interviewer: How to handle a knee injury. Dr. Julia Rawlings practices primary care sports medicine and also pediatric emergency medicine, and she is one of the physicians that you would find at the walk-in orthopedic clinic at University of Utah Health. I wanted to talk about knee injuries and young athletes actually. What are some common ways that young athletes can injure their knees? What specific sports or activities do you see?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So it's really common to have a knee injury when you're playing sports, particularly contact sports. But severe injuries, including the ACL, don't always have to be from contact. So we typically see knee injuries that are acute, meaning they happen from a trauma, when you're doing an activity where there's either contact or you change directions quickly, so you're pivoting, you're shifting, you're changing your weight, and the knee can kind of buckle on you and get injured. In people that do more endurance-type sports, like cross country runners, we tend to see more chronic knee pain just from overuse.

Interviewer: Got you. So you kind of covered some of the common injuries to the knee. What could be handled at home without a clinic visit? And then we'll get to when you should perhaps consider coming in.

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So starting with an acute injury, meaning that's something you were out doing your sport, you were doing something, and all of a sudden you felt the knee pop, or you twisted it, or something happened. A couple of clues that I would give to go ahead and come in to be seen is, one, if you're having a hard time walking on your leg, then we would really like you to be seen sooner rather than later. We'd like to get X-rays and make sure there's nothing that's broken and then do a good examine and check out the ligaments and the meniscus of the knee.

Another clue is if your knee gets pretty swollen, then that means that there's something significant going on in your knee that should be seen sooner rather than later. Two more other clues, things that I like to ask people about and look for. If your knee feels like it's buckling under you, it's giving out when you walk, then there's the potential that every time it buckles, that we're doing more damage. And in that case, we'd like to get you on crutches and get you into a knee brace. Or if the knee is getting stuck or locked, meaning you can't bend it or you can't straighten it very well without kind of forcing it, those are all things that we'd want to see you sooner rather than later for.

Interviewer: And then when somebody comes into the clinic with some of those more serious symptoms, as you said, what does the clinic do?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So if you have, say, a big swollen knee and we're worried about bigger injuries to the ACL or to the meniscus, something like that, what we would generally do is start off with X-rays, make sure there's nothing that's broken, and then we would do our exam, get a feel for what we think is going on, and then generally get you set up in a knee brace that's appropriate for the injury you have, plus or minus crutches. And then often, patients with significant injuries we'll get set up for an MRI to check out the soft tissue structures, which we can't see on X-ray, and get a definitive diagnosis. And then depending on what we see on our exam, we'll either get you set up with one of the non-operative sports medicine providers for follow-up or our sports medicine surgeons. My practice myself is I typically just let people know what their MRI shows, and then depending on what they need done, I'll then schedule the appointment with the appropriate follow-up person.

Interviewer: And when people come in, how often would you say that they could just come into the clinic and that's kind of it? It's just going to take a little bit of rest, and they're going to recover from their injury.

Dr. Rawlings: You know, it depends a little bit, I think, on the age demographic. So we do see a fair amount of people that come in with an acute knee injury that have just flared arthritis, and they don't actually have an injury to the ligament or something that we would need to do an MRI or surgery for. And those patients we really treat with physical therapy, maybe a steroid injection, and kind of getting them back to functioning, hopefully, so that we can prolong the longevity of their knee. In those cases, then, yeah, all they need really is just that visit in the orthopedic injury clinic and then a follow-up appointment down the road with a primary care sports medicine person or a sports medicine surgeon.

Interviewer: Are there any final thoughts you would want a listener to know about the clinic, or knee injuries, and how to handle that or take care of it?

Dr. Rawlings: I think definitely when in doubt, especially when it's an injury that's happened within the last day or two, come on in. We'll be happy to take a look at it. And if you're getting a chronic injury from training for a marathon, or in kids, they can often get growth plate injuries, again, if they've happened in the last three months, we're happy to see you in injury clinic for more of a chronic developing problem as well.

Interviewer: When should you consider University of Utah Health's Orthopaedic Injury Clinic over perhaps a visit to the ER or urgent care, or is it something you can handle on your own? That's what we want to find out today.

Dr. Julia Rawlings is a primary care sports medicine and also practices pediatric emergency medicine, but it's that sports medicine doctor that we really want to talk to today. So the first thing I want to find out is what are some of the common orthopedic injuries a person should consider using the Orthopaedic Clinic versus an ER or urgent care?

Dr. Rawlings: The Orthopaedic Injury Clinic is a great place to go if you have an acute injury, meaning that you have had an injury that you've sustained recently. We're actually willing to see people that have had an injury anytime in the last three months, but preferably not something that's chronic and going on. We'd rather you go ahead and make an appointment with a regular physician during regular hours, although it can be at the Orthopaedic Center.

Specifically, things that are good for the Injury Clinic. So we see a lot of injuries from the ski slopes. We see people that have been playing different sports, or running, biking. We see some football injuries. Anything that's kind of acute. Anything that could go to an urgent care can go to the Orthopaedic Injury Clinic if it's a musculoskeletal injury.

A couple of things we don't see at the Injury Clinic. We don't do stitches there. So if you're bleeding and you think you need stitches, an urgent care or the emergency department would be more appropriate. Also, if your bone is pretty crooked, it's probably a better idea to go to the emergency room. We can do some local numbing medicine to set some easy broken bones, fingers, and things like that, but larger fractures would need to be seen in the Emergency Department for sedation.

Interviewer: And what kind of diagnostic tools do you have there that kind of makes you the choice for some of these as opposed to perhaps an emergency room or an urgent care?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So the Injury Clinic is fantastic because we have access to x-ray on-site, and we can see those images back as soon as they are done. And depending on the time of the day, we actually can often get the reads back from a musculoskeletal radiologist within a few hours. Sometimes those reads don't come back until the next day. We don't have the capability to do CT scans at the Injury Clinic. We do have access to scheduling MRIs in the building, but that's not done the same time as the visit.

So one great thing about the Injury Clinic is you get kind of a full package. So you get your x-rays. You could get an MRI set up. We have all of the braces and everything that you would need, crutches, things like that. And then, we can get you set up with a specialist, whether that's a sports medicine surgeon, foot and ankle surgeon, or one of our non-operative primary care sports medicine physicians. We will actually make that appointment for you while you're there for follow-up.

Interviewer: So the clinic, it sounds like a better option than perhaps making an appointment. It can be difficult to get in sometimes with an orthopedic doctor at times. So this clinic, it's primarily walk-in, is that how it works, or do you have to make an appointment?

Dr. Rawlings: It is walk-in. It's a little bit tricky right now with coronavirus going on, but, typically, it is walk-in. They are switching to appointments during this period of time, but that's going to be very temporary. Generally, it is walk-in, first come, first served.

Interviewer: How can a person decide if an injury is something that they can treat at home or they can just try to see if it's going to get better versus coming into the clinic or seeing a professional?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So we're always happy to check anything out if you're not sure. A couple of tips that just come to my mind. One is if you have an injury that's bad enough you can't really walk on it or bear weight on it, that's something that should be seen, probably get an x-ray, make sure you haven't broken a bone. Or if you really can't move your shoulder or can't move your arm in some way. If you twist your ankle, and you're walking on it okay, and it gets a little bit swollen, that's something that you could probably wait on at home and see how you do. But, yeah, if you have a hard time moving a body part, that's a good time to go in.

Interviewer: All right. Are there some injuries that really you do want to have looked at, otherwise it could affect you and your mobility in the future?

Dr. Rawlings: Yeah. So there are definitely, particularly injuries that involve the joints. We often like to get a sooner look at what's going on rather than a later look, just because things can happen down the road that can lead to arthritis if they're not treated early. That being said, a lot of musculoskeletal injuries aren't emergencies. Meaning, even if you get something like a torn ACL, which is considered a pretty big injury in the sports world, if you're diagnosed several days after that happens, in general, that's okay. It's not something that absolutely needs to go to the emergency department or into the Injury Clinic even the same day you have it. You'd really be okay to get yourself a pair of crutches from the garage and come in a couple of days later.

Interviewer: For the particularly injury-prone that might have some crutches?

Dr. Rawlings: Exactly. There are a lot of people with crutches in their garage from siblings, so.

Interviewer: Any final thoughts that you have when it comes to the walk-in Orthopaedic Clinic? It's such a great resource. I was able to utilize it. I had a shoulder injury. I'm not even going to go into how that happened because it was not cool, it was not athletic. But it was great because I could go in, they were able to look at it, make sure that I didn't, you know, do any permanent damage, which I didn't, and then, you know, gave me a reference to go to a physical therapist to do some exercises to rehabilitate it, so.

Dr. Rawlings: I think it's a fantastic clinic. I mean, it's staffed by people that are trained in musculoskeletal medicine, so we have a little bit of an advantage over lots of the urgent cares that are more kind of general medicine, that we treat a lot of musculoskeletal injuries. We can get you set up with physical therapy pretty easily. And one or two days of the week, we actually have a physical therapist with us in-clinic. So if your injury is appropriate for that, we can even get you started on physical therapy the night that you come in. So I think it's a fantastic resource.

Dr. Miller: Rest, ice, and stretching are not the only ways to repair tendon injuries. We're going to talk about some of the new treatments next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: Hi, I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Nick Monson. He's a physician here at the University of Utah in the Department of Orthopedics. He's a non-operative physician and he specializes in sports medicine. Nick, what's the story? I understand there are some new treatments out there to help with folks who have tendon injuries that have become chronic.

Dr. Monson: Well, one of the things that we've been really looking at over the last decade or two is the usage of ultrasound and the ability to find issues within tendons or joints or different areas of the body by an in-office imaging modality which is ultrasound, kind of like looking at babies. But now, rather than just looking at babies, you can actually look in and see a tendon. Then, what you can do is you find that area of pathology or the area of irritation within a tendon. You can actually see it with the ultrasound, which makes it much easier for us to actually find approaches to attack that area of issue in patients.

The areas develop typically from overuse. It also happens because tendons just notoriously don't have a great blood supply to them, and blood is what brings the healing factors to our body. So when you don't have that healing component coming to the tendon, it has a hard time healing. That's the way that we've addressed it.

Dr. Miller: So how do you use the ultrasound to guide treatment? And what are these treatments that you're using now?

Dr. Monson: Yeah. So one option is something called PRP, platelet-rich plasma. There's also another treatment option which is in the same family, which is called stem-cell therapy. These are both areas of a lot of excitement. The research on them is still forthcoming. In the orthopedic usage of it, or in the tendon issues, we've seen that it does seem to provide benefit for patients. It's a discussion I have with them. It's not always the perfect option. But for a lot of patients, it's something that we can offer where, ultimately, it involves a blood draw.

We take the blood off of a patient. We spin that blood down. We take the healing components of that blood and actually reinject that into the tendon under visualization of ultrasound so we can find that area that looks like it's irritated or has the issue. We directly inject into that area using that PRP injecdate that we've harvested from the patient by a blood draw. Then we can stimulate regrowth of the tendon as the theoretical purpose of it. But often, what it seems to do is cause the inflammatory reaction in the area, or it just kind of stimulates the healing in the area, and has provided a lot of relief for our patients.

Dr. Miller: Which tendons do you usually look at when you consider this therapy, or which tendons do you most frequently treat?

Dr. Monson: It can be done on any tendon that there is noted pathology in. So if you see an area of issue, it can be done in just about any tendon. Tendons that we typically think of, of having frequent issues are the shoulder, so the rotator cuff. We think about tennis elbow, so that's on the outside of the elbow. Golfer's elbows, on the inside of the elbow. We'll do it there. We see it in knees, particularly for people that have something called jumper's knee which is at the tendon of the knee. Achilles' tendon. Even in like the plantar fascia, this can be done.

Dr. Miller: These tendon injuries, they're not short-term injuries. Would these be folks that have chronic problems with the tendons that would be over weeks or months, perhaps?

Dr. Monson: Certainly. Yeah. Yeah. So that's usually, somebody will come to see me. They have a new injury, we'll work them through the things that we have the best evidence for, what we know works. Things like rest, avoiding aggravating activities, pain modification, medications. Then also, eccentric exercises are very important. We have good research showing that those are helpful.

Dr. Miller: What are eccentric exercises?

Dr. Monson: Yeah, so those are the exercises where the muscle is fired but it's actually lengthening at the same time. So we're lengthening a tendon and muscle unit while there is force.

Dr. Miller: Well, for stretching.

Dr. Monson: Yes, correct.

Dr. Miller: Okay. So how do you use the ultrasound to guide your therapy?

Dr. Monson: So the ultrasound, first of all, identifies the lesion. So then I know exactly where I need to go. The second thing you can do is the ultrasound will actually, if I place a needle into a patient, I can follow the course of the needle the entire time. I can see the surrounding nerves. I can see the surrounding blood vessels and I know exactly where I'm at. First of all, it's very effective for safety or avoiding those structures that we don't want to hit. But second of all, it helps us target very directly where we want to be within a tendon and make sure that we're in the correct spot.

Dr. Miller: Now, I'm assuming before you enter, you have a patient undergo this type of treatment, you have gone through the standard therapy. So they've gone through a physical therapy. They've done the stretching. They've done the icing, and they're just not getting results.

Dr. Monson: Correct. There's one other procedure that we've added to this as well. It's a needle procedure as well. So that means that it's not done in an operating room, but it is done in a procedure room where we, again, identify that area of concern. We're able to use a specialized needle tip that it pulsates at the very tip of it very quickly, about 17,000 times per second.

Dr. Miller: That's fast.

Dr. Monson: We're talking about a millimeter of movement. Yeah, it's fast. It's not a lot of movement. It's enough that it actually, you think of it as kind of pulverizing the tissue in there. It's emulsifying the tissue is the term that we use. It's the same technology that cataract doctors, or eye doctors, use to remove cataracts out of patients. It breaks up the tissue, removes it from the body, and then leaves the healthy tissue around it. This is a newer treatment, probably in about the last five years that this one's been out. For the same tendon issues that we just talked about, this is another treatment option for patients that's been very promising so far.

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Dr. Miller: Diagnostic ultrasound. We're going to talk about that next on Scope radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Daniel Cushman. He's a sports medicine physician in the Department of Orthopedics at the Orthopedic Center here at the University of Utah. Daniel, welcome. Tell me a little bit about ultrasound-guided diagnosis of musculoskeletal disorders. I know this is a new technique, relatively new. It's been around for a long time but it's finding more applications these days.

Dr. Cushman: Definitely. Ultrasound is kind of a non-invasive way of looking at structures underneath the skin. It doesn't do a great job for things like bones which we have X-rays for, but if you're talking about something above the bone like a tendon or a muscle or those kinds of things, we can see those very well with ultrasound.

Dr. Miller: Does it assist you in your clinical diagnosis?

Dr. Cushman: All the time. For example, somebody hurts their shoulder, we can get a good look at those tendons, the rotator cuff tendons with ultrasound or if somebody's wrist is hurting we can look at the tendons there. Sometimes we can look at nerves particularly to see if they're being pinched somewhere.

Dr. Miller: It would help you, let's say, looking at a shoulder with an ultrasound, that might help you determine whether there was a full thickness tear or partial tear or even no tear.

Dr. Cushman: Exactly, and that's something that on exam when we're examining patients it's not something that's as obvious as it seems it should be. A lot of the time we can have patients who have completely torn their rotator cuff and they don't really have too many problems and then the opposite is true where somebody has done almost no damage to rotator cuff but they're in severe pain.

Dr. Miller: This would also help you decide on the guidance of treatment, right? Whether they go to physical therapy or whether you rest the shoulder for time.

Dr. Cushman: Exactly.

Dr. Miller: It just gives you a better sense of your diagnosis I suppose.

Dr. Cushman: All the time.

Dr. Miller: The other thing that's interesting is you're doing this right at the clinic visit, so this sort of obviates the need for having an MRI.

Dr. Cushman: Yeah. Definitely. A lot of the time I'll just simply grab the ultrasound machine with my patient in the room and it just takes a little bit of gel and that's pretty much it.

Dr. Miller: So this also maybe has a lower cost than the standard sort of other imaging techniques that we have.

Dr. Cushman: It's significantly lower and I don't know the exact numbers but probably somewhere in the range of a tenth the price of an MRI if you're looking at a shoulder for example.

Dr. Miller: Is it as good as good as an MRI for looking at, let's say again, a shoulder?

Dr. Cushman: Yes. That's really dependent more on the person doing the exam. If somebody has had a lot of experience with ultrasound, studies show they're about as good as an MRI. If somebody is not as experienced, then it's really only as good as the person who's doing the exam.

Dr. Miller: What other areas of the musculoskeletal system do you use this on? How about Achilles tendons or . . .?

Dr. Cushman: A lot of the time we can tell without having to use the ultrasound machine what the problem is but other times it's very helpful and so Achilles tendons, we do use it on occasion. There are there are some times where we think we know the diagnosis and this really either confirms it or shows us that something else is causing the problem and so it's helpful in that regard.

Dr. Miller: How about in the hip?

Dr. Cushman: In the hip joint there's a couple of uses for that pretty commonly. People who have had hip replacements where they can't really do an MRI afterwards and they still have some pain, a lot of times some of the hip replacement surgeons will have us take a look at the tendons that are going over the the prosthesis.

Dr. Miller: Sometimes patients will come in with pain and you've told me previously that you can use the ultrasound to sort of find out where that pain arises from or is there a structure along the nerve that is actually causing the pain. So for instance you might think it's . . . the patient may tell you that they have pain at the wrist or the end of the arm but actually the generation of that pain is higher up and you've learned that from the ultrasound.

Dr. Cushman: Yes, exactly. One of the one of the disadvantages of something like an MRI is you can really only do one segment at a time so you can only look at the neck or you can only look at the shoulder. You can't really do both at the same time. With an ultrasound, if you're thinking maybe a nerve is causing this, you can trace it all the way from the finger, all the way up the arm to the shoulder, to the neck and get a pretty full view of the entire nerve or whatever structure you're really looking for.

Dr. Miller: How many specialists like yourself are versed in using ultrasound as a diagnostic tool nowadays?

Dr. Cushman: Here at the U, there's probably about four or five of us at least in our department and it's getting more and more popular because it's such an easy test for patients. Patients generally love it by comparison to having to do an MRI or going back and additionally it's so much cheaper for the patient.

Dr. Miller: It also gives you real time feedback so that you don't have to wait for test results coming back from radiology.

Dr. Cushman: Definitely. A lot of the time, one other thing I was going to mention was that when patients say, "It hurts when I do this," and they move their arm or they move their leg, we can actually look at it while it's moving as opposed to an MRI or an X-ray, which only shows a static picture.

Dr. Miller: Do you think in the future that more orthopedic surgeons and sports specialists will be trained in this technique so that it's pretty common throughout the specialty?

Dr. Cushman: I think so. I think it's becoming kind of a second set of eyes for people to look under the skin.

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Dr. Miller: Strains, sprains and fractures. How do you tell which is which? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Hi, I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Emily Harold. Emily is a Professor of Sports Medicine here at the University of Utah in the department of Orthopaedics. Emily, tell me the difference between . . . well, what do we do? What do we start with? Is there a difference between strains and sprains and . . .

Dr. Harold: Yeah, there is a difference. So, typically, when we talk about a sprain, we're talking about an injury to a ligament. A ligament is a structure that connects one bone to another bone. When we talk about a strain, we're talking about an injury to a muscle. So they vary in terms of what we're describing and they also vary a little bit in terms of treatment.

Dr. Miller: So ligaments are the tough, fibrous tissues that connect joints together? Would that be fair?

Dr. Harold: Yes, that's fair.

Dr. Miller: So you have them in your ankles, your knees, your hips, any major joint?

Dr. Harold: Any major joint. It's a tough, fibrous tissue that connects the two bones together.

Dr. Miller: And yet a sprain is a problem between the tendon and the muscle?

Dr. Harold: Exactly. So, typically, sprains can either be located at where the tendon and the muscle connect, or sometimes they'll be within the muscle themselves.

Dr. Miller: Which is more common, sprain or strain? And also, why is it important to know the difference between the two? Is that something that the general audience should be familiar with or is that more something that a physician needs to know?

Dr. Harold: I think that it's important to know the difference because when we talk about an ankle sprain we're talking about injury to a ligament that connects the two bones. And therefore, the recovery and the treatment for that injury is going to be a little bit different than when we're talking about a hamstring sprain, which is an injury to the muscle itself.

Dr. Miller: Treatments are different?

Dr. Harold: Treatments are different. When we talk about an ankle sprain or ligament sprain, we grade those one through three, with one being just a very mild injury to the ligament and three being a complete tear in the ligament.

Dr. Miller: So, obviously, a complete tear would result in a lack of function or a severe impairment of function.

Dr. Harold: Exactly, and depending on the joint, the treatment is a little bit different. So when you hear of an ACL sprain, a complete tear of the ACL, which would be a grade three sprain, typically results in a surgical intervention.

Dr. Miller: How about the minor stage one and stage two? Are those treated with physical therapy, typically?

Dr. Harold: Typically, those are treated more with physical therapy to help get the joint moving again. Ice, anti-inflammatories. And they take about two to four weeks to recover, whereas a grade three sprain can take up to six weeks to recover.

Dr. Miller: So you're a sports medicine physician. You treat a lot of athletes and also weekend warriors, I imagine. Tell me a little bit about what are the major sprains that you see, and then later on the major strains.

Dr. Harold: So the major sprains I see would be an ankle sprain, as well as, a lot of times, knee sprain. So MCL, different ligaments in the knee that can get sprained. The major strains I see are rotator cuff, which are the muscles in the shoulder, and then I also see a lot of calf and hamstring.

Dr. Miller: So let's take a sprained ankle. That's a fairly common injury, I would think, among athletes and just people who are exercising on a day-to-day basis, and step off a curb incorrectly. Do you always need an x-ray of that? I mean, how does one proceed? Let's say they have swelling, they have pain, does that need to be evaluated by a physician? And how would they know?

Dr. Harold: That's a good question. So there is a set of rules called the Ottawa Ankle Rules, that came out of Canada, where they looked at a lot of patients who had an ankle sprain and they tried to determine which ones were at risk for a fracture and which ones were at risk just for a ligament injury. And so there are some rules you can follow. One is if you can walk on your ankle right after the injury, that's a good sign.

Dr. Miller: Bear weight and walk.

Dr. Harold: Bear weight, exactly. The other is we look for tenderness on either side of the ankle on the bony prominences, both on the inside and the outside of the ankle, as well as if anyone has tenderness on the outside or the lateral part of their foot.

Dr. Miller: And if you have either of those debilities, what next?

Dr. Harold: Then you should come in and get an x-ray, just to make sure that you don't have a fracture with the injury.

Dr. Miller: So you could go to an urgent care clinic, you could go to your primary care physician or even a sports medicine physician?

Dr. Harold: Yeah, all three would be able to handle that with an x-ray and let you know if it's a fracture or just a sprain.

Dr. Miller: So sometimes, there's this difficulty in distinguishing whether it's a fracture or whether it's actually just a sprain?

Dr. Harold: Yes.

Dr. Miller: Okay. Other joints that are concerning for either fracture or strain? I think of ankle, most commonly, and then knee is one where . . .

Dr. Harold: Ankle, knee, I think wrist.

Dr. Miller: Wrist?

Dr. Harold: I'll see some people who fall on their wrist and there's concern whether it's a fracture, or whether it's a sprain or a strain. And that doesn't have a set of rules to guide x-ray so, typically I'd say if it's really swollen and if you have limited movement, those are the times that I would get an x-ray.

Dr. Miller: So if you're lacking function in that hand because of swelling and pain, that needs to be checked out, especially if it goes on any longer than maybe a day. Or if it just hurts incredibly, it needs to be checked out. Okay. So let's talk about strains. You've mentioned hamstring.

Dr. Harold: Yes.

Dr. Miller: And is that the most common that you're familiar with or that you deal with on a day-to-day basis?

Dr. Harold: Because I treat a lot of the younger athletes, I see that probably most commonly.

Dr. Miller: And what do you do to rehabilitate that? What's the main treatment there?

Dr. Harold: The main treatment there is to keep from over-stressing it when it's still injured. So usually, we start with some gentle stretching, usually some physical therapy. Avoid any kind of sprinting or any kind of activity that really stresses it until it slowly heals with time, and that can take up to a month.

Dr. Miller: I imagine you work very closely with physical therapists?

Dr. Harold: Yes.

Dr. Miller: And so a person with either a sprain or strain would end up maybe going to a physical therapist if it was a non-operative injury?

Dr. Harold: Yeah, absolutely, and I would say at least 90 to 95% of all of them are non-operative.

Dr. Miller: That's great to know.

Dr. Harold: So most injuries require physical therapy, some time off from the activity that really bothers it, but very few ever go on to require surgery.

Dr. Miller: Emily, you mentioned something earlier, talking about non-steroidals. Could you talk about that and what a non-steroidal is?

Dr. Harold: Yeah, a non-steroidal is a drug that helps with inflammation. If you get them over the counter, brand names like ibuprofen, Aleve, or naproxen, Advil, those are medicines that people take to help with inflammation. Now, I think it's worth noting that it hasn't been shown to heal anything quicker, it's more of a pain alleviator.

Dr. Miller: Should they go to the drug store and pick up ibuprofen or Naprosyn, common non-steroidals that are available without a prescription? Or do you have a certain way that you prescribe them or tell them how to use them so that they don't overuse those types of medicines? Because they do have side effects.

Dr. Harold: Yeah. I typically tell my patients that if they have a lot of pain, they should take the dose that is written on the over-the-counter bottle and take that for pain only. And once their pain starts to get better, they should stop the medication as they tolerate it. There are some doctors who will tell people to take it constantly for one or two weeks. Again, I don't think there's any data behind either option. I think it's more of a physician and patient preference.

Dr. Miller: So, Emily, we just talked about sprains, strains and fractures. Could you just summarize what we said? And we said quite a bit but I think, for the audience, a little bit of a recap would be good.

Dr. Harold: Absolutely. So a sprain is an injury to a ligament, which is a piece of tissue that connects a bone to a bone. A strain is an injury to where the muscle and tendon are connected. And a fracture is any break in the bone, regardless of how many pieces it is in or how big it is. All of these are treated a little bit differently, and . . .

Dr. Miller: I think, as you said, 90% of them . . .

Dr. Harold: . . . most of them are non-operative.

Dr. Miller: . . . that don't require procedure and operation to heal.

updated: December 21, 2022
originally published: October 4, 2016

Interviewer: Common sports injuries that end up in the ER, that's next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is From the Front Lines with emergency room physician Dr. Troy Madsen, on The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen is an emergency room physician at University of Utah Healthcare. He wanted to talk about some common sports injuries that could end up in the ER. What are some of the things that you commonly see as a result of somebody engaging in some sort of activity?

Dr. Madsen: One of the biggest things that we see, and I think one of the biggest areas of concern recently, is concussions and head injuries. By definition, if your child gets hit in the head with a ball, or they are playing football, and they're kind of woozy afterwards, or they lose consciousness, or they're nauseated, or they have a headache, by definition they've had a concussion. So that's a case where the brains been kind of shaken up, causes those symptoms, and that can have some long-term consequences, so that's absolutely a time to get medical attention.

And then the question becomes, so okay, do they need to go to the ER right away, or can you get them in to see their pediatrician or family doctor within the next few days? So kind of the big thing there in my mind is that if they lose consciousness, if they are just not acting right, if they are vomiting, that's a reason to go to the ER.

Interviewer: Really? Just no questions asked, if those things are happening, just go?

Dr. Madsen: Just go to the ER . . .

Interviewer: It's serious enough . . .

Dr. Madsen: It is, because there I'm not just concerned about a concussion, I'm also concerned about bleeding in the head.

Interviewer: All right.

Dr. Madsen: That's a time to get a CAT scan of the brain to make sure everything looks okay there. But, if they are confused, and then they get better, they didn't lose consciousness, they're acting okay, good reason to see the family doctor, maybe not having to rush to the ER.

Interviewer: All right. And, it's becoming more and more accepted that you should go see a doctor after something like that, not just shake it off, because there are things that the doctor can recommend to help with the recovery.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: From what I understand. All right.

Dr. Madsen: And, you need to make sure they are fully recovered over a period, often of weeks, before they get back into contact sport, because if they get another concussion within that timeframe it can be much more severe.

Interviewer: That's where you're seeing a lot of the danger.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: All right. What are some of the other common sports injuries that you see, you've got concussion, what else?

Dr. Madsen: Well, one of the other common things we see are sprains and fractures. So, let's say your child is playing soccer and they roll their ankle, you may look at it, it's swollen up, and ask yourself is this a sprain, or is this something I need to get an X-ray of this? A few things can help you out there. If they are able to walk on it, at least four steps, and they are getting around okay, and let's say you pushed on the ankle on the bone and feel the outside of the leg along the bone that runs down into the ankle, and they're not really tender on there, that's a good sign. They probably don't need an X-ray right off.

Same thing with their knee, if they are able to walk on their knee, maybe it's swollen up a bit, but you push around on the bones, you push around on the knee cap, around on the side, the outside of the leg on the bone there, and they're not really tender there, those are also good signs, may not need to rush in for an X-ray. If it's a sprain, the best thing to do for it is to put some sort of elastic wrap on it, keep it elevated, you can ice it, that might help as well, um, just uh, maybe some ibuprofen can sometimes help decrease that swelling, but it's a common thing we see and often in my mind I'm asking myself the same questions, using the same things in my mind, do I need to get an X-ray or not?

Interviewer: And let's go for number three here.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, so number and something I do occasionally see are abdominal injuries. And one of the biggest things here, kind of interestingly that we see, and again you see it in football players, soccer players, individuals in contact sports, where something like another player or the ball, comes into contact with their belly, they can get spleen injuries. So the spleen is in the left, upper-side of the abdomen, if you push there under your ribs, that's where your spleen is.

And, it's an organ that is, if you hit it hard enough, it's prone to rupture. And I've certainly seen cases of young athletes who have come in, who have been hit there, who have a lot of pain. Maybe they have pain up into their shoulder as well, it's kind of a classic sign where they get pain not only in their upper abdomen, but also in their left shoulder, we get a CAT scan and they have a ruptured spleen.

Interviewer: Wow.

Dr. Madsen: And that's an important thing to know because spleens can bleed quite a bit and certainly if they have an injury and they keep playing and they get more injured there it can be much more severe.

Interviewer: All right. And is that something that's pretty obvious that the spleen is hurt, you touch that area and there's going to be some "aagghhh".

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. Yeah, you touch that area, they're going to hurt, and again, a reason to come to the ER and get a CAT scan to look at that.

Interviewer: All right. Three common sports injuries that end up in the ER, what to look for and what to do with them. Thank you very much.

Announcer: Thescoperadio.com is University of Utah Health Sciences radio. If you like what you heard, be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook, just click on the Facebook icon at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Miller: Your coach tells you you have a groin pull. Is that really what it is? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Travis Maak, an orthopedic surgeon here at the University of Utah and he's in the Department of Orthopedics. Travis specializes in sports medicine. Travis, talk a little bit about that whole issue around groin pain. Is there such a thing as a pulled groin muscle or is that something else?

Dr. Maak: It could be and many athletes are very used to this type of injury and being told by their trainer or their coach that you bent down or you were running and just kind of exploded off the blocks if you're a running athlete. And all of a sudden, you have pain in your groin and you're told you pulled your groin and you need to take a little bit of time off, stretch it, out walk it off, take some anti-inflammatories like Aleve, ibuprofen, Advil and when the pain goes away, you get back doing what you were doing.

Yes, there are muscles, to your point, that you can literally pull in your groin. Those are called the adductor muscles. They are on the inside of your hip. Frankly, multiple groin pulls are not common.

Dr. Miller: They're not common?

Dr. Maak: They're not common.

Dr. Miller: Contrary to what everybody hears.

Dr. Maak: That is true.

Dr. Miller: We always talk about a groin pull. For the audience, I think that a groin pull is pain on the inside of your upper leg towards the pelvis, right?

Dr. Maak: That is correct.

Dr. Miller: If it's not a pulled muscle, then what is it?

Dr. Maak: Well, a person who's prone to groin pulls and has a history of playing sports from their childhood and being told they pulled their groin, they pulled their groin, they pulled their groin and it never seems to get . . . it will go away temporarily, but then it comes back. One of the other diagnoses, which can cause this, is something called femoral acetabular impingement or FAI.

Dr. Miller: That's a big word. What does it mean? What does that look like?

Dr. Maak: So the femur, that's the thigh bone

Dr. Miller: That's the big bone in the thigh?

Dr. Maak: That's the big hole in the thigh. Acetabulum, that's the socket or the ball and the socket of the joint. So the ball is the femur, the socket is the acetabulum. Just the two bones of the hip joint. And then impingement is a fancy word for the two bones hit together.

Dr. Miller: They rub?

Dr. Maak: They rub.

Dr. Miller: When they rub, they cause pain.

Dr. Maak: That's exactly right.

Dr. Miller: Are certain people predisposed to this problem?

Dr. Maak: They are. It tends to be a Northern European type of injury or at least the way the bones are shaped. Although it can happen in any type of ethnicity or group of population. Interestingly, we also have some evidence that specific sports put people at risk for this.

Dr. Miller: Do tell, which ones?

Dr. Maak: Lacrosse tends to be a fairly high incidence of sport, football, hockey.

Dr. Miller: Now, why lacrosse as opposed to basketball or soccer?

Dr. Maak: Interesting question. We believe it has to do with the rotation with the stick. Part of this, there's a current theory that this has to do with the growth plate of the hip and small growth plate injuries that occur over time can make your hip shaped a little differently.

Dr. Miller: So if this happens, you have this pain, this discomfort. How is one reliably to separate this out from actually a pulled muscle or tendon versus you know this is a problem with the hip joint.

Dr. Maak: Sure. So the history is actually fairly classic here. So while the initial acute stabbing pain of a pulled groin can happen quickly, particularly when you're exploding off the blocks or you twister you get tackled, and then it goes away within a few days and basically you return to normal. With FAI, there's typically a subtle, continued discomfort, particularly when you sit for long periods of time. If you find yourself going to the weight gym and your coach says, get down, get deep and squat this weight and every time you find yourself not going . . .

Dr. Miller: Get discomfort.

Dr. Maak: Right.

Dr. Miller: What do you do then? What are the treatments?

Dr. Maak: Well, the first treatment is physical therapy so athletic trainers are very good at this. Many physical therapists are as well. As long as you have the diagnosis, going and learning how to lift a little bit differently, avoiding deep squatting exercises and strengthening the muscles around the hip as well as a little an-inflammatory, like Aleve, ibuprofen, Advil can help you. When those fail, sometimes other interventions can help you.

Dr. Miller: How often is this a game changer for the young athlete?

Dr. Maak: So I can tell you is if this ultimately gets diagnosed in the athlete finds himself limiting their athletic participation because they're groin hurts when it's treated, the beautiful thing, while no one wants to get surgery, if it ends up getting surgery . . . and the surgery is basically to make the ball of the hip round again, it's done with a camera. It's minimally invasive and three little, tiny poke holes. And you go in and basically reshape the ball to make it round again. It's curative, it does not return and effectively, they return to their sports at a higher level without pain.

Dr. Miller: One of the things you started out with is the potential to have this problem misdiagnosed. So what would be your recommendation be to an athlete that has groin pain?

Dr. Maak: The first thing is probably to not worry about it initially. If it's a first time you're told by your trainer that you have a groin pull, odds are you probably did. That being said, if it continues to happen and you have a one or two or three or even four groin pulls that keep happening, my recommendation would be to go get an X-ray of your hip. It's nothing fancier than a simple X-ray of your hip and you can diagnose this problem.

Dr. Miller: They could very well do that through their primary care physician?

Dr. Maak: Absolutely.

Dr. Miller: So, in summary, this groin pain may not actually be a groin pain, it could be an impingement in the actual hip joint itself and that that ought to be checked out if you have repetitive groin pains.

Dr. Maak: That's exactly right.

updated: March 9, 2022
originally published: August 9, 2016