Search for tag: "headaches"

Interviewer: Can you believe that there's a school actually called Headache School? And if you have headaches, you might want to go to this school. So we're going to talk to Dr. Jared Bartell. He's assistant professor in neurology. He's a doctor, but he's also an expert in headache. He did his fellowship in headache medicine, they call it and today we're going to find out more about the University of Utah Health Headache School, why you have one, what it is, and who can benefit. So Dr. Bartell, thank you for being on the show today. I do appreciate it very much.

Dr. Bartell: Thanks, Scot. Happy to be here.

Interviewer: Yeah. So tell me a little bit briefly, I just I'm curious. So headache medicine is what it's called, that you do. Explain the additional training you've had and what that means?

Dr. Bartell: Yeah. So I finished my neurology residency at the University of Wisconsin. And in neurology, you learn about all aspects of epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, stroke, various things that affect the central nervous system and the peripheral nerves too. But headache is certainly within that and we learn a lot about headache in residency. For those people that want to do more outpatient neurology, headache is really a big part of that.

So I spent this last year doing headache fellowship at University of Utah training with the guys there at the university. I learned about various procedures to use for headache, things like Botox, nerve blocks, the different types of medicines that you can use, both for prevention and for rescue of headaches. The nice thing about headache medicine these days is that there really are a lot of new treatments available within the last even couple of years there have been a number of new medicines that are all fairly expensive right now. Insurance tends to pay for them as long as you've tried a few other medicines first, but it's definitely an exciting time to be in the field as a provider of headache medicine, and it's been a great opportunity for me to help patients as well.

Interviewer: Yeah. That's pretty cool. I know headaches can really be debilitating to some people. It can really just really affect the quality of their life, their ability to enjoy life, their ability to do what they have to do. Headache School. So what is Headache School?

Dr. Bartell: So Headache School is a program that we are offering at the University of Utah, and in collaboration with Danielle Henry Foundation to educate patients and their loved ones about headache in terms of treatment and what causes them and just every aspect of headache.

Interviewer: And it's virtual and online, and you can find back episodes on YouTube. So there are a lot of different kinds of headaches. Why would somebody with a headache want to come to the Headache School or watch some of these videos? Why wouldn't they just say, "Just give me some aspirin. Tell me what it is I need to do to solve my headache"? Why are you finding people who are finding this interesting, and coming and showing up?

Dr. Bartell: So they're really a lot of headaches that . . . So you can think about just little everyday headaches that most people get as being responsive to an over-the-counter medicine like aspirin or ibuprofen or Tylenol. But unfortunately, a lot of people have much more severe headaches that really don't respond to those types of medicines. And that actually can get worse with chronic use of things like aspirin or Tylenol. And it can actually cause something called a rebound headache or a medication overuse headache. For people that have chronic migraine or chronic tension type headache or various other types of even more unusual headaches, those types of over-the-counter medicines aren't as helpful. And so educating patients on the different types of treatments, whether that's medicines or non-medication therapies can be really helpful in treating their headache condition overall.

Interviewer: Talked to one of your colleagues, Dr. Pippitt, and she is an expert with headaches as well. And she says that for the most part, a primary care physician can take care of most people's headaches. So it sounds like Headache School is for somebody who has really struggled and hasn't found that answer to their headache because they do have more of an unusual headache and this gives them access to some experts that might just specialize in that particular type of headache. Is that correct?

Dr. Bartell: Yeah. I think so. I think that's a good way of thinking about it. Most primary care providers are excellent in treating headaches. Sometimes it takes 2, 3, 4, or 5, 10 medicines until you really find the right medication fit for that person's headache. Everybody's headaches are a little bit different. Even if you have migraine, for instance, you can have 10 migraine patients lined up and all of their headaches are a little bit different. And the physiology of their migraine can all be a little bit different such that different medicines work for some people and not for others.

Interviewer: So somebody that might have gone through the process of trying to find some satisfaction or some treatment for their headache really could benefit from Headache School. I'm looking at, man, you've got so many episodes already. Just to cover some of them, the cognitive behavioral therapy treatment for headaches, yoga, for headache and migraine, contraception options in migraine, headache, the basics, acupuncture self-care for a headache, pathophysiology of migraine. Sounds like you cover a lot of ground. And what benefit does this help with somebody then if they hear the lecture? What does that information usually do? How does that impact somebody?

Dr. Bartell: So, in Headache School, we have the benefit of having a number of different speakers coming from different backgrounds talking about their view of what headaches are, how to treat them, we have a pharmacist that has given us several talks, we have multiple different providers that treat patients clinically that have their own medical background to provide. You could do a bunch of your own personal research online, which you might find various blogs and find anecdotal ideas as to what to do and what your headaches are caused by and different things you can try. But really looping into how doctors think about your headaches and how a pharmacist might think and how a psychologist might think about headaches can really be helpful in better managing your headaches.

There have been many years, decades and decades of research into headaches and it's not all intuitive. So you might think that you can treat all of your headaches with Tylenol, you take Tylenol three times a day. And this seems to knock down your headache just a little bit. But as it turns out, somewhat counter-intuitively, that can worsen your headaches. It can cause rebound headaches, it can cause some other problems, it can cause liver problems. Different medicines can do things like that, but it's really helpful just to touch base with the headache medical establishment to know what Western medicine thinks about headaches. We do try to incorporate alternative ideas too, and there are many talks on not just true Western medications and that type of thing, but also these alternative therapies that are available.

Interviewer: I love that you have all sorts of experts. I never really thought of that as an advantage, I just thought, "Well, you go to a doctor." Maybe you go to a doctor who's an expert with headache. But as you said, you've got pharmacists, you've got people like psychiatrists or people that can help teach you a cognitive behavioral therapy, or you have people that know about how exercise impacts headaches. So just a lot of different opinions on how to maybe reduce the impact of your headache or the frequency of your headache. So that's pretty awesome.

It's also pretty awesome too because many people they don't live in Salt Lake City, they don't have access to one of these specialists. They can just make an appointment, but they can go to the Headache School and they can watch the lectures and it sounds like they can interact with that individual. At the end, it's not recorded, they could ask them questions and boy, just really making yourself available.

Dr. Bartell: It's true. We see our clinic, especially now more than ever, patients from all across the region. We see people in Nevada and Wyoming, Montana, Colorado. And this resource especially it's on YouTube, so anyone can see it. You could live in a different country and you have all of the videos available for free at your own pace. One thing that you may not realize is that with YouTube videos, you can actually adjust the speed of them too.

Interviewer: Yeah. It gives you access to these experts. It gives you access to this great expert information. Briefly, I want to hit on the skill building session. So you say you have some skill building sessions. What do those look like on Headache School? I get a lecture, what's the skill building session?

Dr. Bartell: So we have a number of talks on various issues, things like progressive muscle relaxation, breathing exercise, guided relaxation. As of today, those are the most recent talks, but there are a number of courses that talk about these non-medicine options to treat headaches that you can just do on your own. You could do these multiple times a day, depending on what they are. And they can really help to have some synergy with the rest of the treatment that you're undergoing. It's one thing just to take a pill every day, but it's another thing to change your lifestyle in certain ways to really help to solidify the changes that your brain is undergoing as you're treating these headaches.

Interviewer: Headache school, it sounds like such a great resource and we will put a link to the University of Utah Health Headache School in the description for this particular podcast episode. Dr. Bartell, thank you very much for telling us a little bit more about Headache School. It's a great resource. Appreciate it.

Dr. Bartell: Thanks, Scot. Happy to be here. Appreciate it.

Interviewer: All right. Let's talk about chronic headaches. Dr. Bartel is an expert in headaches. He did a Fellowship in Headache Medicine, they call it. And for a chronic headache sufferer, man, it can really just impact your life in a lot of negative ways. How do you treat it? That's going to be the question we're going to answer today with Dr. Bartel. So first of all, what do you as a medical provider consider a chronic headache? What makes it chronic?

Dr. Bartel: So there are a lot of different types of chronic headaches. In a general sense, chronic headaches are headaches affecting somebody more than half of the month. So we tend to consider more than 15 headache days per month as a chronic headache.

Interviewer: And chronic headache sufferers, do the headaches last all day? Is it maybe just a half hour every day? What's that kind of look like?

Dr. Bartel: They can. It depends on the type of headache. So oftentimes, for instance, migraine headaches will last for many hours. There are certain types of headaches that do truly never go away, and some people have headaches every waking hour of their day.

Interviewer: So if you're having headaches 15 or more days a month, that is a chronic headache. Do you also look at the intensity of the headache when you're looking at a chronic headache? Is it kind of a balancing act, or is it really just purely how often are you having this headache?

Dr. Bartel: Yeah, certainly the degree of disability that is involved. Even if a headache isn't truly half of the month, we will often consider preventative medicine. If somebody has headaches at least four days out of the month, like once per week, and it's particularly debilitating or it really bothers them, we'll even sometimes try medication then. But oftentimes, we'll reserve at least some of the more involved therapies for people that have chronic migraine.

There's some evidence that there are a lot of medicines that help, a lot of different therapies that help for what we call an episodic headache, less than 15 days out of the month. They can work for both chronic or episodic. But we pay special attention to those that have headaches that are more severe or that are particularly debilitating.

Interviewer: So there's a difference between a chronic and an episodic headache insofar as what causes them and how you would treat them.

Dr. Bartel: Yeah, it's really a continuum. But between tension-type headaches, which are the most common type of headache, migraine headaches that tend to be the most common severe type of headache, there's cluster headache. There can be a chronic cluster headache or episodic cluster headache. In all of these, it really depends on how bad they are, how much this is affecting somebody's life. And we really use that information to help cater the treatment for everybody's different headache condition.

Interviewer: If somebody is genetically predisposed to a headache, are they just going to get them regardless of what kind of lifestyle decisions they're making? Or do those impact as well?

Dr. Bartel: Yeah, not necessarily. Certain things can reduce the likelihood of having chronic headaches. So things like effectively managing your stress. That's easier said than done, of course, but having certain various coping skills to help when you have a really stressful situation come up.

You can manage it by exercise. So for some people, exercise can make their headaches worse, but in general, exercise, when you do it fairly routinely, 5 days a week, 20 to 30 minutes a day, just enough to kind of get your blood flowing, your heart rate up a little bit, causing a little bit of sweating, that can all really help with reducing the likelihood of headaches.

Having good social support. Actually being married or in a committed relationship can actually be protective against headaches also.

Interviewer: Really? Wow.

Dr. Bartel: Yeah, as is it turns out. In general, just having a good social structure, social support system can be helpful for a lot of conditions, but headache is certainly one of them.

Interviewer: I like one problem, one solution. It doesn't sound like headaches are that at all.

Dr. Bartel: Unfortunately not. Yeah, it's not at all a one size fits all type of a condition. There are really so many different types of medicines, so many different types of alternative non-medication therapies that can be helpful. We try to really include the ones that we think are most likely to help each individual person, but we cater it to that person.

Interviewer: So for the person that has a chronic headache, if they wanted to try to treat it before going to a doctor, if they wanted to take a look at a few things to try to do it on their own, are there things that they could try before going to see the doctor? Dr. Bartel: Yeah. I think that trying to make sure that you're drinking plenty of water. You don't want to over-hydrate, but you want to make sure that you're drinking enough water. Getting enough sleep, regular sleep, every night is an important thing. Some people that have shift work jobs, that's difficult, but trying to get a good six to eight hours of sleep every night is really helpful.

Interviewer: Should somebody take a look at their diet? I mean, if they're eating a lot of sugar, for example, can that exacerbate a chronic headache? Dr. Bartel: Yeah, there are a lot of different food triggers for headaches, certainly. In general, there's no one diet that can help with headaches in a general sense, but trying to eat a little bit of protein when you have a headache can sometimes be helpful. Eating smaller meals throughout the day can also be helpful.

There are certain food triggers that can make headaches worse, things like MSG, monosodium glutamate. That's found in really every food these days practically, but also nitrates in certain cured meats, things like that.

Interviewer: So foods from our modern society.

Dr. Bartel: Pretty much, unfortunately. Yeah, there are really a lot of things. Simple carbohydrates can make headaches worse, just a lot of the sugars that we think about. But really, for everyone, it's a little bit different.

Interviewer: So it sounds like take a look at some of your lifestyle things. If some things have changed, like perhaps you're not sleeping as well or maybe you're hitting the candy bowl or the cookies a little bit harder than normal, could be some of those things that have all of a sudden brought on some headaches and a patient could definitely take a look at those and see if their headaches go away. Is there a time when a patient should not try to solve it on their own?

Dr. Bartel: Yeah, there are certain red flags that a doctor might think about to give us pause and want to recommend extra testing or at least more questions. So things like having stiff neck or fevers or just a change in your headache, generally, in the acute sense. So if you've had a certain type of headache for a long time and now all of a sudden there's something a little bit different about it, like you're just feeling kind of sick and you're just not feeling right, that can certainly be a red flag. It could just be worsening of your headache, but it could also be something else that's more threatening.

Having prolonged neurological symptoms with the headaches can be unusual. So it's one thing just to have a little bit of a visual aura before your headaches or numbness or tingling beforehand, but having prolonged symptoms like that isn't typical. It can be normal, but also it would be something to want to know more about from the provider's side.

Having weakness on one side is something that can happen with hemiplegic migraine, but it can also be a sign of other things happening in the brain.

Interviewer: Yeah, like a stroke.

Dr. Bartel: Exactly.

Interviewer: One of the signs of stroke is . . . yeah, wow. Okay.

Dr. Bartel: Having a new headache or kind of a changed headache in people that are a little bit older than age 50, for instance, can be a red flag also. There can be a lot of things that could be caused by, but that might indicate the need for imaging of the head.

Having a really sudden onset severe headache might be a reason to go into the ER for, which wouldn't be a bad idea because there can be bleeding in the brain. There can be a number of things that can cause that type of headache beyond just your standard tension headache or migraine headache.

Interviewer: Dr. Bartel, I don't know, after hearing those red flag headaches, I think I'm just going to go see a doctor and let one of you professionals work through it with me. It just sounds really complicated. It sounds like if I tried to get under the hood of my car and fix it is about the same thing as trying to diagnose a headache as well.

Dr. Bartel: It's difficult. I mean, it certainly can be. I think the main things to think about are if it's just a kind of a mild headache here and there that responds to ibuprofen, that's great. But you really want to be careful to not overuse your own research. If you're having headaches that are happening more often, certainly more than 15 days out of a month, it's probably a good idea to see a primary care provider to start with and then maybe see a neurologist or a headache expert otherwise just to kind of give you some tips and try to sort out what this headache is.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

If you've ever looked up your medical symptoms online, it can seem like every website assumes the worst possible scenario. These results can be alarming to say the least. So where can you find reliable health information online?

Dr. Troy Madsen has dealt with the stress of trusting bad online information personally and professionally with his patients. He's put together a list of websites he uses and has found to be the most reliable to find information on any medical topic.

• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
• The Mayo Clinic
• The Cleveland Clinic
• University of Utah Health
• MedScape.com
• UptoDate.com

Each of these websites are from reputable health organizations run by professionals. Dr. Madsen highly recommends using these sources over a basic web search to make sure you're getting the best information possible. How Can You Tell if a Health Article is Valid?

When it comes to research you see in your news feed, it's easy to get bad information. There are a lot of potential problems with online health journalism. Media groups often write articles about science and medicine in a way that can get them clicks. Due to limitations, the story is not always able to go as deep into a topic as is necessary to fully understand the complex nature of scientific studies. And finally, most journalists lack the medical or scientific background to accurately present the findings.

Dr. Troy Madsen has a list of tips that he suggests everyone follows when reading any study to help you decide if it's true.

• First and foremost, make sure the article links to a published scientific study. If there's no study, there's a good chance the information in the article is misleading.

• Make sure the linked study actually claims what the article says. Most scientific journals will give access to the abstract or short summary of the research for free. Read through to make sure the journal isn't twisting the findings.

• Make sure the study is published in a reputable scientific journal. There are "predatory journals" that allow any group to pay to publish research in official sounding publications. To be safe, only trust journals like The New England Journal of Medicine, The Journal of American Medical Associations, The Lancet, or The British Medical Journal.

• Avoid studies that make bold and definitive claims. Science is nuanced and seldom makes hard and fast claims about anything.

• Make sure the claims are backed up by multiple studies. For example, if chocolate really did cure cancer, multiple studies would be looking into it.

• Be sure to check the sponsor of the research. It's not uncommon for companies to back skewed research that shows the positives of their products.

Be a skeptic! Next time a scientific story comes across your feed, keep an eye out for these elements to make sure you really are getting reliable information. What Makes a Good Scientific Study?

Troy also suggests a few things to look out for when judging the validity of a study. A good scientific study should have the following:

1. Low "P-values." A p-value is a statistic that describes the likelihood of the collected data having errors. As such, a lower p-value means a more reliable study. Look for data with a p-value less than .05. That means there is less than a 5% chance of the data being wrong.

2. Large numbers of subjects. A scientific study about health should include over a thousand subjects minimum. Ten thousand is even better.

3. The best type of studies use "randomized control trials."

4. The gold standard for medical research are "prospective studies," where the scientist actively follows the patient and their behavior rather than rely on anecdotal information.

Maybe you didn't chew as well as you should have. Now you have a piece of food stuck in your throat. It's not obstructing your airway, but it's definitely uncomfortable or painful. The food won't come up, it won't go down. ER or Not?

First, make sure the food isn't obstructing your airway. Any blockage of the airway needs to be seen at an ER immediately.

If you can't get the piece of food up, you may need to go to the ER to get it removed by a professional. But first, there's a trick you can try at home that may save you a trip and the cost of an ER visit.

Take a drink of a soda, preferably a cola. Try to get a swallow of the cola down your throat and let it sit there for five minutes or so. Carbonated cola has some properties that will help the esophagus relax. It may be able to relax your throat enough to swallow the food the rest of the way. Repeat a few times if necessary.

If the cola trick works, it is important to go talk to your doctor afterwards. There are some conditions that can be related to getting food stuck in your throat that would be important to catch to diagnose and treat.

If the cola didn't help push the food through to your stomach, you will need to go to an ER. You will need to be treated by a gastroenterologist immediately. An urgent care will not have that kind of specialist on hand. Try to go to a larger ER that would have an oncall specialist. Housekeeping - Hello Ladies.

This podcast is called "Who Cares About Men's Health." The goal of the show was very focused and very singular. Create a podcast by men, for men. Yet our our most recent statistics surprisingly show that about 40% of our listeners are women.

Guess this just goes to show that women also care about men's health.

Listener Danielle recently gave us a shoutout on Facebook.

"I love listening to bits and pieces of this podcast Who Cares About Men's Health. You don't have to be a man to find it interesting."

Women, if you are listening, be sure to share it with the men in your life. Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Troy would rather have a broken finger than a long-lasting cold, because he can't get sympathy. Scot has a moment of honesty about his personal health struggles and he reminds us that health is a practice with ups and downs, not a linear journey. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Kids and headaches, it's something I have parents bring their kids in for all the time. When is it time to worry? And when are there simple things you can do at home to make your child feel better?

Whenever kids get frequent headaches, parents often start thinking worst-case scenario. I'm often asked if a child who has frequent headaches needs an MRI to determine if they have a brain tumor or not. Only one in 4,000 children who have frequent headaches will have something in their brain. Ninety-nine percent of the time the headaches are due to more benign causes.

When we see kids with frequent headaches, some of the first questions we ask are to rule in or out that possibility of a brain tumor. Kids with brain tumors have severe headaches often that don't respond to pain medications or rest, or other symptoms, like dizziness, waking them up in the middle of the night with the worst headache of their lives, and vomiting, they're off balance when they're walking, have vision changes, and facial drooping. According to some studies, up to 50% of kids with brain tumors have no headaches at all but have other symptoms that raise big red flags for doctors that there's something wrong, including those vision and balance changes that I just mentioned.

So if it's not a brain tumor, why do some kids get frequent headaches? This shouldn't be shocking, but one of the biggest causes is stress. Many kids are super stressed out these days. They have academic pressure as young as preschool age. Often, there are families struggling with money issues, parents having marriage problems, older kids trying to keep up with what all their other friends are doing, especially in the digital world they live in. Social media puts a lot of pressure on teens that they really aren't able to handle.

Kids pick up on everything going on in their world. I have some patients as young as three suffering from anxiety because of things going on in their home environment. I've seen kids as young as one throw a temper tantrum if they don't get to play on the tablet or phone when they demand to. And I've got patients who are seven or eight, who are coming in for daily headaches because they're being bullied at school and don't want to go. Again, the teenagers stressed out from peer pressure that is only amplified these days with online video games and apps like Instagram and Snapchat.

Some of these kids with headaches do have migraines, but most have tension headaches. If your child is getting frequent headaches, what can you do? First, talk to your child and find out what's bothering them. Do it calmly though and let your child know you're concerned about them and that they're not in trouble no matter what the issue is. This helps them be more honest with you.

Find out if they can see okay. It's pretty common to have frequent headaches because of eye strain and needing glasses. And evaluate just how much screen time they're having. And if it's more than two hours a day, have them back off.

Make sure they're getting good sleep too. Doing meditation before bed and having a consistent bedtime routine will help with this.

If you still can't figure it out, then have them see their pediatrician who can help do a more thorough evaluation and provide some answers specific for your child's headache.

updated: January 13, 2023
originally published: July 22, 2019

Interviewer: Three symptoms that don't seem serious but could be. We'll talk about that next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is, From the Front Lines with emergency room physician Dr. Troy Madsen, on The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen's an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. Today, three symptoms that don't seem serious but could be. We're talking about signs that you might have a serious medical condition that a lot of people ignore because we're kind of numb to these things.

What are the big three? Let's start with number three. In no particular order, or is this in order?

Dr. Madsen: This is in no particular order at all.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: Just the three things I thought of as we talked about this that people often don't take very seriously but when they come in sometimes we can find serious things going on.

First one on the list is headaches. And when we're talking about headaches, I think a lot of us are used to headaches. We work, we get tension headaches, sometimes we just don't feel quite right, a little nauseated. But I oftentimes find that people with headaches just feel like "I've just got to tough it out," just get through it and it will go away.

Interviewer: Right, it's a headache, everybody gets them.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. And, sometimes headaches are a sign of something very serious going on. A lot of times, the red flags with headaches are, headaches that come on very suddenly, very severe, maybe make you feel more nauseated then maybe you've been with previous headaches, certainly if you're passing out because of headaches. Another interesting thing with headaches that's more serious is if it wakes you up in the morning, like you get a headache and you wake up and this headache is the thing that woke you up.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: And that's often a sign of something going on in the brain, maybe a brain tumor or something like that that can be a more serious thing. So a reason to, certainly if it's a sudden onset severe headache, get to the ER, if it's a headache that's waking you up in the morning, something to talk to your doctor about, they may want you to come to the ER or get some sort of imaging of your brain to see what's going on there.

Interviewer: And it might not be a bad idea if you just kind of always have headaches to talk to your doctor about it because that's not a fun way to live.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, you're exactly right. We do see cases like that, too, of people who come in the ER who say "I just get migraines all the time" and they could be on medication to prevent that, to prevent that ER visit and make their life much more comfortable.

Interviewer: All right, number two on three things that don't seem serious but could be.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, so number two is back pain. And back pain is another one of these things you figure "Tough it out, I get pain in my back, maybe I was doing some lifting, something like that." But one of the really, really serious things with back pain is an aortic aneurysm, or a tear in the aorta. And classically with that, people will have pain that starts in their chest and goes though to their back and it's like a tearing pain, maybe it's down in their abdomen and they feel some pain in their back as well with that.

Interviewer: So upper or lower back it sounds like.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: Doesn't have to be just back from where the heart is.

Dr. Madsen: No it doesn't.

Interviewer: Even though it's a heart thing you're describing.

Dr. Madsen: Well it's related to the heart. The aorta is the main vessel that delivers blood from the heart to the body. So yeah, it is related to the heart. The heart is squeezing blood through there, so people sometimes just have just severe back pain with an aortic aneurysm or a tear in the aorta and that's something that's extremely serious, you've got to get to the ER, get that checked out. And typically with that, they just have sudden onset severe pain. That's how they describe it. Just a sudden onset pain feels like a tearing or a ripping sort of pain.

You know with back pain as well, you can have issues like cancer, tumors in the spine, things there that will cause you pain that's often more severe when you're lying down or certain positions. It's a little more rare, but that would be something to see your doctor about. They could get an x-ray of your back, sometimes they'll get an MRI to take a look there and see what's going on.

Interviewer: So if it's something you've lived with for a while, there again, go see a physician because why should you live with that. If it's something that comes on very suddenly, for no real apparent reason, that's the trip to the ER time.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: All right. Number one on the list of three symptoms that don't seem serious but could be.

Dr. Madsen: And number one is abdominal pain. And we see lots and lots and lots of people with abdominal pain, and we see lots of people with abdominal pain who don't have anything wrong. But then we see people with abdominal pain who come in and say "I've had this pain in the right lower side of my abdomen for five days now. I just figured it was gas and it would go away." We get a CT scan and they have a ruptured appendicitis. And that's just not good.

So there are things in the abdomen that can go very wrong, and it generally happens over time. Typically in the abdomen, it's not something that's going to happen all of the sudden, but if you're having abdominal pain and it's not going away after a few hours, it's progressing, especially on the right side of your abdomen. If you're a typical young, healthy person, the right lower side is your appendix, the right upper side is your gall bladder.

Those are the most common things I see in young healthy people who are just like "I've had abdominal pain before. This will go away." They come in, they have a ruptured appendicitis, or they have a very serious case of cholecystitis, which is an infection of the gall bladder, and they have to go to the operating room to get these things repaired, which they would otherwise but often it's a much more complex case because the infection there is so advanced.

Interviewer: So it sounds like the first two, sudden symptoms. The third one, symptoms that have lasted for a while.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. Things that came on more gradually and then progressed but people just keep thinking "This will go away" and it's not going away.

Interviewer: That's for the abdominal pain. How many days, if I kind of have a consistent abdominal thing going on, what should my line be, where I'm like "I better go see somebody"? Five days? Is that it, or sooner than that?

Dr. Madsen: I would do sooner than that. With the appendix, with the gallbladder, most things if you got a little bit of food poisoning or some gas in your stomach it's going to get better within six hours. If it's going on beyond that, if you're getting more toward 12 hours with this sort of thing, that's definitely I think a reason to at least see your doctor about it.

Interviewer: And I think it's also interesting too because I know a lot of people from some previous podcasts talk about very sudden abdominal pain like waking up in the middle of the night, sudden abdominal pain. From what you just told me, that doesn't sound like necessarily the thing to worry about. It's if it continues over time.

Dr. Madsen: Well, and again it becomes challenging because I mention that thing to you about the aortic aneurysm, like the back pain, that's also in the stomach that is a sudden thing, so it comes a little bit more challenging.

Interviewer: How do I know if something happens suddenly if I should be concerned? I mean, how do I parse this out?

Dr. Madsen: I think you have to base it on the severity of the pain, how it compares to your previous pain. But these are things where people kind of ease into it, it's like "Oh this isn't so bad. I've got a little pain in the right side of my abdomen. I'm used to having a little bit of abdominal pain." But then they gradually get worse and worse. Maybe some of these other serious things in the abdomen, they come on suddenly, and they're severe.

And so, you base it on the severity, and then those things that aren't so severe, you base it on well, what's it been doing over time, has it just been gradually getting worse, that's a sign often of something more serious.

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Interviewer: You get a crazy severe headache out of nowhere. ER or not? That's next on The Scope.

All right. It's time for ER or Not, where you play along and decide whether or not something that happened is worth going to the emergency room or not. We're with Dr. Troy Madsen. He's an emergency room physician at University of Utah Hospital. Today's ER or Not, you get a crazy severe headache out of nowhere. Just, bam, it hits you. Should I wait a few minutes, or should I think about going to the ER? ER or Not?

Dr. Madsen: I'm going to ask you a little more about this. Have you had a headache like this before?

Interviewer: No. This was just something, never experienced anything like this.

Dr. Madsen: Nothing?

Interviewer: No.

Dr. Madsen: Severe headache?

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Madsen: All of a sudden?

Interviewer: Maybe mild headaches before, but nothing like this. It just all of a sudden, bam.

Dr. Madsen: Did it make you pass out or cause you to feel sick to your stomach?

Interviewer: It did not make me pass out. Caused somebody to feel sick to their stomach, sure.

Dr. Madsen: Okay. Yeah. These are typical questions I'm going to ask someone. Again, I'm imagining you're a family member calling me on the phone telling me, "I've had this severe headache. It just came out of nowhere. I've never had headaches before. Otherwise, feel okay." I'm going to say, "Go to the ER."

Interviewer: Okay. So severe headache out of nowhere, no other symptoms, still go to the ER?

Dr. Madsen: Yes.

Interviewer: Put a little nausea on top of that or passing out, then definitely.

Dr. Madsen: Absolutely.

Interviewer: I'd imagine go to the ER.

Dr. Madsen: Yes, absolutely. These are cases where the big thing I'm worried about is what's called a subarachnoid hemorrhage, which is bleeding in the brain. So you can have an aneurysm. Maybe 1% to 2% of the population, of all of us, just have possibly little brain aneurysms, just something we have and we may not know it. But these individuals that have severe, sudden headaches like this, the big thing I'm worried about is something rupturing with that aneurysm, bleeding out, and that's what's causing the severe headache.

Classically, what will happen is someone will say, "Out of nowhere I had the absolute worst headache of my life." They describe it as a thunderclap headache, just like that thunder just hitting you all of a sudden. Sometimes they may pass out. Sometimes they may feel very nauseated. They may have other symptoms as well with it, if the bleeding is severe, like difficulty speaking or weakness. But really, if you have that severe, sudden onset headache, you need to go to the ER to get that checked out.

Interviewer: So these aneurysms, otherwise completely healthy people could have them?

Dr. Madsen: They might, and that's the thing. It's not something where I'm going to recommend that people just go and say to their doctor, "Hey, I heard this guy say that maybe 1 or 2 out of every 100 people have these aneurysms. I want to get checked for this." Because most people go through their whole lives and it's never an issue. But in some cases, for whatever reason, there may be something about it, either it's large or it's been weakened for some reason, these aneurysms can rupture, and then can cause these severe symptoms.

Interviewer: Are there instances where you could have this sudden severe headache and it is something else? What I want to say first of all, if you do have this go to the ER.

Dr. Madsen: Yes.

Interviewer: But in the interest of not freaking everybody out, could there be other reasons?

Dr. Madsen: Oh, absolutely.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: Just because you have this doesn't mean you've had a ruptured aneurysm. When studies have looked at it, they've found that about 10% of people who describe these thunderclap headaches, these very severe, sudden headaches, do end up having some sort of bleeding in the brain. That means the other 90% just had it. For whatever reason, it just came on. The big thing I'm thinking about in the ER is ruling out the bad stuff. Oftentimes, that means getting a CT scan of the head to look for any sign of bleeding there, making sure there's no sign of that, and we may have to do some additional tests as well.

But at the end of the day, 90% of the time or more, I'm telling people, "Hey, you had a severe headache. I don't have a great explanation as to why. I may look for other causes as well, but at least we know it's nothing very serious like this."

Interviewer: Then, that buys you some time to maybe look into the other reasons.

Dr. Madsen: Yes, exactly.

Interviewer: But definitely, those thunderclap headaches, go to the emergency room.

Dr. Madsen: Absolutely. Yep. I've seen cases of people who have come in, young, healthy people who have come in and said, "I've had this severe, sudden onset headache." We start the testing. Within 30 minutes they are not responding, because the bleeding has gotten so severe. We're getting the neurosurgeons down there emergently. So one of those things that I don't want to scare you with this, but severe, sudden onset headaches you want to take seriously.

updated: September 23, 2020
originally published: May 13, 2016

Interviewer: How do I know if my headache is caused by a mouth-jaw issue? That's next on The Scope.

Announcer: Health information from expects, supported by research. From University of Utah Health, this is TheScopeRadio.com.

Interviewer: Dr. Gary Lowder is a practicing dentist and a professor, both at the University of Utah School of Dentistry. He's got 30 years of TMJ experience and he's seen a lot of cases of people coming in with headaches asking, "Is this a mouth-jaw issue?" Headaches are so common nowadays and can be caused by so many different things, how do you know if it's caused by a mouth-jaw issue? Is there any kind of one-tell that you look for?

Dr. Lowder: Well first of all, in my practice I like to know if a patient has been to their physician or their ENT to find out if there's any underlying infection that might be contributing to the headaches. A lot of patients will say that they have migraines, but in fact they're really just severe muscle tension-type headaches.

So what we do is we will often use a technique called Spray and Stretch, where we use a vapocoolant spray on the muscle areas of the face to see if there is a diminishing of the pain. If we can get headache to respond to that kind of a test, then it usually indicates that it could be related more to muscle irritability, muscle tension, or another term is called Trismus, and that gives me encouragement that this is something that can be treated because it's more of a muscle tension-type headache than a true migraine-type headache.

Interviewer: And we're talking about tense muscles in the jaw and the mouth area?

Dr. Lowder: Yes.

Interviewer: Does that cover the neck area as well what you do, or is that different?

Dr. Lowder: It also covers the neck area. A simple test to know why is if you look up toward the ceiling and tap your teeth together, the bite will feel different that if you look down toward the floor and tap your teeth together. And the neck muscles actually determine head position.

If the head position is altered by tension in those muscles, it can alter your bite, which in term can trigger clenching and/or bruxism, and you can either get headaches toward the end of the day or when awakening in the morning. Often morning headaches are due to the fact that the individual is clenching their teeth throughout the night.

Another sign that could help you understand if you're clenching or grinding is look at your teeth in the mirror and see if you see any signs of wear. The canine teeth or the cuspids just to the sides of the incisors, should have nice points on them. If those points are missing and they're flattened, that means that you have been doing some grinding and abrading of your tooth structure and it can be a factor in headaches.

Again, not all headaches are related to teeth and occlusion, but if it's been ruled out that you have migraines or some other systemic reason for a headache, then we need to suspect that maybe the occlusion is a factor.

Interviewer: So what are some common issues that might be causing my headaches? So TMJ would be one of them, grinding your teeth sounds like another. Are there any other ones?

Dr. Lowder: Well, stress is probably the number one culprit. And stress happens for good reasons and negative reasons. For instance, Christmas can be very stressful to some people, and so can birthdays and weddings. And so a promotion at work, increased responsibilities, can cause us to start grinding or clenching our teeth, and that usually can create tension-type headaches over time.

Interviewer: What can I do about it if I have headaches that are being caused by my muscles and my jaws and my mouth?

Dr. Lowder: I'd like to say, "Just take a deep breath and relax," but that doesn't always work. I think it is good though to evaluate the stress in your life, both physical and emotional stress and determine if there's a more healthy way to deal with them. Stress management counseling is a good idea. Considering your daily activities, is there anything that you're doing that puts more strain on the muscles of your neck and shoulders than the body is able to tolerate?

The position you're in, if you're at a computer all day, can make a difference in how those muscles feel, which can in turn, create muscle tension-type headaches. Physical therapy is beneficial in those cases, ice packs, good quality exercises, routines that can help strengthen those muscles are also beneficial.

If you feel like you're clenching or grinding your teeth and doing it habitually or waking up having these symptoms, some form of protective mouth wear can be beneficial. And those are called dental splints or mouth guard that helps to take the stress off of the teeth and distribute it over the plastic, protecting the teeth and relaxing the muscles associated with your jaw.

Interviewer: That's interesting. So a lot of headaches can start from there but it sounds like there's some hope for people if that's where their headaches are starting.

Dr. Lowder: There definitely is. It's worth investigating because you don't have to suffer with a headache if it's coming from muscle tension in that area. It's also important to know that in some cases of temporal-mandibular disorder, there is clicking and popping that occurs inside the joints just in front of the ear. If it's non-painful we often do not treat that, it's very common. And if it's non-painful or if it doesn't limit your jaw function, then we don't usually treat it. When it becomes painful then the patient should seek help to try and alleviate the problem as soon as possible so that further breakdown in the form of osteoarthritic remodeling isn't occurring.

Announcer: Have a question about a medical procedure? Want to learn more about a health condition? With over 2,000 interviews with our physicians and specialists, there's a pretty good chance you'll find what you want to know. Check it out at the scoperadio.com.

updated: December 19, 2018
originally published: May 27, 2015