Search for tag: "emergency"

Dr. Madsen: E-scooters and the emergency room, are more people going as a result? We'll find out next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is From the Frontlines with emergency room physician Dr. Troy Madsen on The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen is an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health. And in Salt Lake City and a lot of communities, you'll see these e-scooters now. I bet you there's more people going to the ER, because sometimes it looks like maybe the people aren't riding them as safely as they should. Wanted to find out for sure though. Are you seeing more injuries as a result of e-scooters? What's going on in the ER here in Salt Lake?

Dr. Madsen: So in our Emergency Department, we are absolutely seeing more injuries related to e-scooters. I would say now we're seeing an injury related to scooters at least once every other day if not every day in the ER.

We looked at our numbers. We pulled all the records from our Emergency Department from this last summer, and we compared it to the summer before, because e-scooters have become very popular in Salt Lake City this year with a couple of rental companies coming in, and our number of e-scooter related injuries has significantly gone up.

Interviewer: Is it the people that are riding them that are getting hurt, or is it people that are walking and getting hit by somebody that's riding an e-scooter?

Dr. Madsen: You know, interestingly, I didn't see any cases of anyone who reported getting hit who came to the ER.

Interviewer: Hmm.

Dr. Madsen: I thought we would.

Interviewer: Yeah, I would too.

Dr. Madsen: But every one of these injuries we saw this year were people who were getting hurt riding the scooter. Most of these were orthopedic injuries, people injuring their arms, their legs. I suspect what's happening is people are running into trouble on the scooter. Maybe they hit a rock or a curb. They jump off. They're going 15 miles an hour. They try and stop themselves, but you just cannot run fast enough to keep up at that speed, so you're going to fall. And these were broken ankles, dislocated ankles, dislocated/broken wrists, elbows, shoulders, all sorts of orthopedic injuries. Some of these were very serious, where they had to go to the operating room.

We even saw some very serious head injuries as well. Interestingly, when people were asked, "Were you wearing a helmet," I didn't see any cases where anyone said yes. And several people said they were intoxicated while they were on the scooter.

Interviewer: Yeah. That's what I was wondering too. So how many of the accidents are actually intoxicated related versus just somebody who maybe was riding faster than their ability? Because these are new, right?

Dr. Madsen: Yes.

Interviewer: And they do go fast. It would be easy to outride your skill level at this point.

Dr. Madsen: Oh, it absolutely would. So of these, I would say about 20% said they were intoxicated.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: So a decent number, but, you know, not the majority.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Madsen: But you're exactly right. I think of someone like myself, because most of these injuries were people between the ages of 20 and 50. And for someone like myself, I haven't personally been on a scooter in probably 20 years, and it didn't have a motor on it. So you figure I'm just going to jump on the scooter. It can go 15 miles an hour. You can imagine how you could run into trouble, try and swerve around someone or hit a curb or a rock, and you could run into trouble pretty quickly at that speed.

Interviewer: Yeah. So it sounds like that the solution maybe to this is slow down a little bit. It is good to know that it's not people getting hit, because that would be my fear as a pedestrian.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: I would, yeah. So if you're riding the scooter, slow it down. Make sure you're not riding above your skill level, and then also look out. Realize you've got, you know, there's other people there.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah. That's exactly right. My recommendation is take a few minutes just to get comfortable with the scooter. Practice turning on it, getting on and off. These things go 15 ...

Interviewer: Braking.

Dr. Madsen: Braking. Yeah, exactly. I mean they go 15 miles an hour. That's as fast as you ride on a bike.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Madsen: And wear a helmet.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Madsen: That's the other thing too. If this is part of your daily commute, you ride tracks, you catch a scooter, you go to work a mile away, bring a helmet in your backpack. Put the helmet on. It can make a big difference if you do fall off and hit your head. You'd wear a helmet on a bike. You should wear one on a scooter as well.

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Interviewer: Broken blood vessel in the eye. Dr. Troy Madsen, ER or not?

Dr. Madsen: Well, a broken blood vessel in the eye is one of those things that's just absolutely obvious to everyone you see. Everyone is going to ask you about it, say, "What happened to your eye?" It's essentially just a bruise on the eye. If it happened on your hand and you had a bruise there, no one would ask about it, but the blood vessels in the eye are so small that, sometimes, maybe while you're sleeping, you just turn wrong and bump something, and it causes a little bruise there. You don't need to go to the ER for it.

Now, if you've had significant trauma to the eye, you've been hit in the eye, if you notice that there's blood behind the cornea, so in front of the colored part of your eye, that's much more concerning. But if you just wake up one day, you've got some red on your eye, it's going to heal up after a few days. No need to rush to the ER.

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It can be really scary to see your child get bonked in the nose. Some noses seem to be trauma magnets and when they get hit, they get bloody, bruised and swollen. Luckily, in most cases, the nose isn't broken.

If your child's nose is hit, first, take care of the bruising and the swelling, by putting ice on the nose for about 20 minutes, and repeat this again in an hour.

You can give your child Tylenol or Motrin for pain. If there is a cut on the nose, clean the area with soap and water, and then cover it with gauze to stop the bleeding. Once the bleeding has stopped, you can put on antibiotic ointment and a Band-Aid to keep the area clean.

Be prepared for a nose bleed because this will happen. Noses have a great blood supply which means, they can make a literal bloody mess. Bleeding that goes on continuously for more than 30 minutes, though, that's concerning. When to Seek Professional Help

If you're not sure if your child's nose is really broken, wait a few days and let the swelling go down. If you're not sure, and your child can breathe okay, and the nose isn't crooked, wait about four to five days, to see what the nose looks like after the swelling is gone. If it still looks odd, ENT needs to see them quickly, because the nose will need to be reset by ten days after the injury.

If your child's nose is crooked, or they can't breathe out of it, they need to be seen in the ER. X-rays won't help diagnose a broken nose, and if there's a concern that your child's nose needs ENT to see them urgently, a CT scan may be done to see how bad the damage is, and how quickly it needs to be fixed.

Noses will get hit, but most heal fine by themselves.

updated: October 3, 2022
originally published: September 26, 2016

Interviewer: What is the thing you should be worried about if you end up with a dog bite? We're going to talk about dog bites next on The Scope.

Dr. Troy Madsen's an emergency room physician at University of Utah health care. And if you get bitten by a dog, what do you need to know? Dr. Madsen, go.

Dr. Madsen: So the biggest thing we think about with dog bites are infection. That's probably the first thing that comes to mind for me in any kind of bite dog, cat, whatever, but in particular with dog bites. So when I see someone with a dog bite, first of all, I'm looking at the wound itself. Are they moving their hand okay? Let's say they got bitten on their hand or on their forearm. Do all the tendons seem like they're intact? Can they feel? Are the nerves working okay? Is the blood flowing okay, making sure there's no damage to any of the vessels there? So anything I would do it any sort of laceration, that's what I'm doing with the dog bite.

But the big thing, I think, about say someone falls and cuts their arm or cuts their arm with a knife or something like that versus a dog bite would be the infection risk because dogs, like any other animal including humans, have lots of germs in their mouth. So typically what I'm thinking about there is getting the wound cleaned out really well, making sure it's washed out really well. And then often with these bites I'll put people on antibiotics. So I think if you're bitten by a dog that's the big thing you're thinking about is, number, one getting this cleaned out really well. Number two, was it a fairly deep wound or something where maybe you should be on antibiotics for a few days to prevent an infection there.

Interviewer: All right, so if you take a look at it and it's a deep wound then it's a no brainer, you probably should go to the ER?

Dr. Madsen: You really should.

Interviewer: The instant care would they be able to handle something like?

Dr. Madsen: Instant care would be fine.

Interviewer: They'll be able handle that as well and get that stitched up. But if it's just kind of a minor bite, they kind of broke the skin a little bit, then you need to watch out for infection.

Dr. Madsen: You do. And I think if it's a minor bite in those situations, if it were me, I would just wash it out really well.

Interviewer: Soap and water?

Dr. Madsen: Sure. You can use some soap and so might kind of might hurt. Quite honestly, if you just run the tap, just get a lukewarm water going, put your arm or whatever affected body part of was put it under there, let it just run for five or ten minutes, just wash that out really well, that's really going to do the job. And you can avoid putting a lot of soap on there, causing a lot of pain. I think just getting lots of water running through it, just flushing it out is going to be effective, and you know you can try some antibiotic ointment on there as well. But I think the big thing to watch for there is any signs of infection where it starts to get red, swollen, getting drainage from the wound, then absolutely in that situation, you need to get to an urgent care or an ER, get in and get on some antibiotics.

Interviewer: Some redness is normal though right after a bite like that?

Dr. Madsen: Some redness, yes, but I expect usually the redness is going to go down within 24 hours. If it's getting bigger after 24 hours, that's a sign of infection.

Interviewer: And get that taken care of immediately.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: All right. So if it's a dog that's known to you then I think we've covered it. But if it's a dog that's not known to you, then you've got people worried about rabies.

Dr. Madsen: So the big thing to know is if you know the dog, if it's your dog, if their shots are up to date, you can observe the dog after the bite, you don't need to rush in and get rabies shots. If it's a dog where this is some random dog, and you don't know whose dog it is and you don't know where the dog went, you need to think about rabies, and that's something to go to the ER for or an urgent care could handle this as well to look at getting the rabies vaccine to prevent rabies.

Interviewer: When a dog that's not known to you attacks you, would they be showing symptoms and signs of rabies? Or could they be asymptomatic, not showing those symptoms and signs and still have rabies?

Dr. Madsen: They could. It's hard to say and it may not be florid rabies where it's classically you know you hear foaming at the mouth as rabid dog. But just any time you're bitten by a dog and you just cannot track that dog afterwards or you just don't know if they've had their shots, you need really need to get the rabies vaccine in that situation.

Interviewer: And don't wait for, "I'll just see how I feel."

Dr. Madsen: Yes, don't wait to see if you get rabies and wait for that because there's not much you can do once you have rabies.

Interviewer: Is there anything else to keep in mind when it comes to a dog bite?

Dr. Madsen: I think the big things again are watch for infection, and use your judgment in terms of getting to the ER to get on antibiotics depending if this is a larger wound versus something you could just wash out treat at home. Again, always think about rabies if you don't know the dog, you don't know whose dog it is, get in, get the rabies vaccine.

updated: August 19, 2020
originally published: August 19, 2016

Interviewer: When is a fever bad enough that you should go to the ER? We'll examine that next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is "From the Frontlines," with emergency room physician Dr. Troy Madsen, on The Scope. On The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen is an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. When is a fever bad enough to go to the ER? Dr. Madsen, shed some light on that for us.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah. You know, it's interesting you bring that question up because I've had people ask me even recently. They've said, "At what point is the fever just going to cook my brain and how high does it have to be to cook my brain"?

Interviewer: That can't happen. Right?

Dr. Madsen: I can't say I've ever seen it happen and I told them that.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: And it's something that's out there. I remember hearing that too, like people saying, "Wow, you got to keep your fever down, or you're just going to fry your brain." I can't say I've seen that. So when I think of fever I don't think of the absolute number with the fever. We define a fever as being 100.5 degrees Fahrenheit or greater. So I think of fever more in terms of what are the symptoms that you're having or what kind of medical problems do you have.

This is a child, a young infant, less than, say, 12 weeks old, and they have a fever of 100.5 or greater, you got to go to the ER because there, we get concerned about a serious infection. If this is someone who has an immune system problem, who's on chemotherapy, or maybe has HIV, or something that's affecting their immune system, again, another reason to go to the ER. I'm not concerned about is it 105, is it 100.5, if they have a fever, they need to have testing done.

Interviewer: If they are in that particular group?

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: If they have immune system problems, if they're very young, and then, of course, if they're very old, people who are very old also. It's interesting because very old people really don't get high fevers like someone in their 20s might. So in them, a fever or a temperature of 100.5, that's pretty significant. And again, potentially a sign of something going on that's very serious. Whereas the average person walking along, who's healthy, who has really no medical issues, maybe they have a cough, maybe they have a fever up to 102, even 103, in my mind, that's not so concerning.

So when I think of fever, I think of more the whole person, what kind of medical problems do they have. And then, beyond that, I think of "Okay, what else is going on?" If it's someone who has a fever, who says the light bothers my eyes, my neck is stiff, I'm confused, or someone is reporting to me that they're confused, then I think of meningitis. Fever with a really severe cough, or a cough that has been going on for a week, and won't go away, I think of pneumonia or a sinus infection. Certainly, fever is with your unary symptoms, back pain, we think about kidney infections and issues there.

So again, you're taking that whole picture. So I think the big take home point would be that I don't even own a thermometer at home. I don't check my own temperature. I know if I'm hot, or I'm cold, or family member is hot or cold. I've heard some pediatricians say, "Get rid of your thermometer. Just don't use it on your kids unless they're the very young kids less than 12 weeks old," Because there, you are again looking at the whole picture. It's not just the fever.

Is the child lethargic? Are they feeding well? Are they eating? Are they still urinating, meaning that they're still having adequate fluids in their body? You're looking at everything there in addition to the fever.

Interviewer: That's kind of a tough paradigm for me to wrap my head around because I think a lot of people are just driven by "Oh, 103 fever. That's burning up. That's a major problem." But it sounds like you're saying to take that as an indicator to maybe assess, are there some other issues going on and those other issues are actually the reasons why you'd probably go to the ER?

Dr. Madsen: That's exactly it. You could have 103 fever with kind of a run of the mill cold, and you could feel absolutely miserable, but it doesn't mean you have to rush to the ER.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: And you can. If you're at all concerned, never hesitate to call your doctor. Never hesitate to go to an urgent care or an ER. But in your mind, I want to think of it as like, "Okay. This absolute temperature means you're sick or something less than temperature means you're not." Like I said, some people with 100.5-degree temperatures who have other problems, that's really serious. Whereas another person on 103-degree temperature, probably very well, just could be a viral infection, and it isn't that big a deal.

Interviewer: So this could be probably tough information for somebody to hear because I'm imagining if they're listening to this, they're concerned about somebody in their life with a fever. If they don't fall in one of those two groups, the very young, the very old, they're going to want to do something. But it sounds like what you're saying is a fever should only indicate that maybe you should look and see if there are other symptoms?

Dr. Madsen: That's exactly it.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah. I won't rush to get into the hospital based on a fever alone. Look at the whole picture. Look at all the symptoms. Look at how the person is acting. If they're acting fine, and they're eating well, and drinking well, and they're alert, and they're not confused, and they've got a temperature of 102, they're probably okay. You can give it some time. You can take some Tylenol, some ibuprofen, to bring the fever down and see how they're doing.

Announcer: We're your daily dose of health, sciences, conversation. This is The Scope, University of Utah Health Sciences Radio.

Interviewer: How to be sure you are safe when you're riding a horse or are around horses, that's next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is, "From the Frontlines," with emergency room physician Dr. Troy Madsen, on The Scope. On The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen is an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. I thought it was interesting. Dr. Madsen told me that in August here in Utah that there tend to be more horse injuries that come into the ER than any other time of the month. Maybe it's because of the fair circuit, maybe it's because of the rodeos. But I thought it would be interesting to find out what are the common horse injuries you see so people could be wary of that and protect against those sorts of things. So what is it?

Dr. Madsen: Well, you w you're exactly right. It is something we do see and for whatever reason, maybe more in the month of August, like you said, because of fairs or different events, rodeos, things like that going on. It's interesting; several years ago we actually looked at the causes of more significant trauma in our ER, those people who stayed at least overnight in the hospital, and horses were on the top five in that list at University of Utah. So kind of interesting.

Interviewer: Wow, I never would have guessed that. I would think there are so many other things out there that would be so much more dangerous, but . . .

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: . . . a horse can be pretty dangerous, apparently.

Dr. Madsen: Horses can. I mean, at least in terms of some of the injuries we see.

Interviewer: Yeah. Doing some serious damage. So kind of what's the most common horse injury that you would see that causes a lot of damage?

Dr. Madsen: The most common injury would be head injuries. You've got to think of it kind of like bikes or motorcycles. If you fall off a horse, the biggest risk is going to be your head and your spine. I think the biggest thing we see with horses is people who get bucked off a horse, who come down on their head, who then have a significant head injury. Maybe a skull fracture or lacerations, bleeding in the head being the most significant thing that we see.

Then they are either brought to the ER because they're unresponsive or maybe they lost consciousness, they regained consciousness. We do testing on them to make sure there's no bleeding or lacerations to repair or any of a number of things that can happen with the head injuries.

Interviewer: So it sounds like that could be just about as dangerous like a motorcycle or a four-wheeler and so forth or maybe even more so?

Dr. Madsen: You've got to figure the height you're up on a horse. You're probably up sitting at least 4 feet off the ground and when you fall from that height, that's certainly higher than you would fall off a motorcycle or a four-wheeler.

Interviewer: A lot of times, a motorcycle might go down sideways so you're even closer to the ground before the head hits. So when you fall off a horse, it's . . .

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, exactly. And you're 4 feet up and then, if a horse kind of rears up and throws you off their back, you're even higher. So you can come off a pretty good height, not necessarily at the speeds for four wheelers or motorcycles but still, there's definite danger there in terms of coming down and hurting your head. As I mentioned, the other thing too is spine injuries. When we think of head injuries, we also think of the head getting pushed forward or some sort of damage or something hitting the spine directly. And then that can cause some very serious issues as well. So that's the other big thing we see and we look for.

Interviewer: All right. So helmets for head injuries, even though it's not as cool as a cowboy hat

Dr. Madsen: That's right.

Interviewer: I mean, I guess if you want to be safe. Spine injuries, is there really anything one could do to protect themselves against that if you're getting on a horse?

Dr. Madsen: Not a whole lot.

Interviewer: Yeah. That just might be part of the deal.

Dr. Madsen: It is and there are actually some inflatable vests that people can wear. I'm not sure exactly how they work, if here's something that then attaches to the saddle where if a person is bucked off the horse this vest inflates and actually protects the person. I personally know someone, an older lady, who was wearing one of these vests when she was thrown from her horse and she had some pretty significant injuries, but nothing that was so serious. And she probably really benefited from this vest inflating and protecting her.

She swears by it and says it made a big difference for her. So it's something where I know that's something that's out there that people may be aware of that you can use as well that probably does provide some spine protection and protection to your chest and abdomen.

Interviewer: All right. So those sound like ones that are probably staying overnight. Are there other injuries that you tend to see horse related?

Dr. Madsen: We see kind of the full spectrum of orthopedic injuries. People who get scrapes and cuts on their arms and legs, broken forearms. You've got to figure if you come down from that height, you try and brace yourself with your forearm. There's a good chance you're going to fracture your forearm. Ankle injury is also very common, depending how you come down. You come down on your ankle, your lower leg can snap. So we do see those injuries as well.

Again, those are things, maybe they're an overnight stay, maybe it's something we can repair in the ER. But kind of the full spectrum. Everything we see with motorcycles, with ATVs, with bicycles, we see all those things with horses as well and maybe even compounded a little more just because the height the person is falling from.

Interviewer: Sure. It sounds like maybe the advice is to wear a helmet and then also just treat the horse, treat the animal with respect. I think it can be easy for a horse person to kind of forget.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. You become comfortable with the animal. You think, "Well, this is safer than a motorcycle or an ATV." Again, it's on our top five list of things we do see injuries with. They do happen. It's something to be aware of.

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Interviewer: You get bitten by some sort of animal, whether it's a dog or a wild animal, the first thing you probably are starting to worry about is, "Did I get rabies?" We're going to find out more about that next on The Scope.

Dr. Troy Madsen's an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. You get bit by an animal, I think the first thing a lot of people think after, "Ouch," is, "Ooh, do I have rabies?" Is that a real threat?

Dr. Madsen: It's a real concern. So, primarily, you're thinking about this with dog bites, cat bites, raccoons, foxes, and bats. And one of the really interesting about bats is, and this is something I've found kind of fascinating, the Centers for Disease Control, the CDC, actually recommends if you wake up and you look at the ceiling and there's a bat there, they actually recommend getting the rabies vaccine in that situation. The idea being that you may have been bitten by the bat during the night, you may not know you've been bitten, the bite marks are usually so small you can't see them. So the concern is that great.

There are certain animals that you may get bitten by and you may wonder about the concern about rabies, animals like rabbits, rats, mice. Those are not really concerns. The big thing I think about in my mind, typically, the animals that are going to transmit rabies are animals that are not necessarily vegetarian-type animals. So rabbits, those things, they don't really transmit rabies. It's more things like foxes, skunks, raccoons, these kinds of scavenger animals that may be eating some meat here and there. Those kinds of animals are sometimes those that carry rabies and those are the ones we get concerned about in saying, "Hey, if you've been bitten by one of these animals, we probably need to think about rabies."

In terms of dogs and cats, if it's an animal where you don't know the dog or you can't observe it, you don't know if it's had its shots, those are also animals where absolutely we worried about rabies and we treat you potentially to prevent a rabies infection.

Interviewer: So if it's a neighborhood dog, good idea to go talk to that neighbor, get that information and save yourself from the rabies shots, I suppose?

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: If you find out, no, they haven't had their vaccinations, but they don't seem to be showing any symptoms, or you've been bitten by another animal where you're unsure, what would the next steps be?

Dr. Madsen: Then, that's a situation where you need to get the rabies vaccine. And what that involves, first of all, is giving them a medication at the site of the bite wound to prevent rabies infection. It's not necessarily the vaccine, but it's something that kind of neutralizes the virus if it is there. And then I start them on a series of basically four shots, where they'll come in, they'll get the shot that day, they'll come back in a few more days, get another shot. These are all vaccines to prevent a rabies infection.

And that's a precaution I'm going to take on anyone who comes in after a bite from any animal that could be carrying rabies. And the reason we're very, very cautious in that situation is because there's not much you can do if someone gets rabies. It's something you really want to prevent. You don't want somebody to catch it because if someone catches rabies and they actually develop the disease, it's almost universally fatal.

Interviewer: Really? So it's bad news, it's serious stuff.

Dr. Madsen: It's bad news if you get it, yeah. It's one of those things you can try and treat it and try and get them through it, but it's a horrible thing to get. So really, the treatment for rabies is prevention.

Interviewer: Gotcha. And these shots, they used to be in the stomach, right? And I heard they used to be really painful and there are a lot of them, but you're saying there's one at the site and then four more after that. Where are those four more?

Dr. Madsen: They're just in your arm or your leg. It's not in the stomach. I remember hearing that as a kid as well.

Interviewer: Has that ever been true?

Dr. Madsen: I don't know. That's . . .

Interviewer: Oh. Not since you've been in medicine.

Dr. Madsen: Not in the last 15 years that I've been in the medical profession.

Interviewer: Okay. All right.

Dr. Madsen: I don't know. I heard that too. I remember always hearing that you had to get a shot in the stomach and I thought, "Wow, if I got bitten by a dog, no way would I want to go get the rabies shot because that sounds miserable." But no, these are shots, you give them the same place you'd give a tetanus shot or something like that. They hurt a little bit, kind of like a tetanus shot would, but it's not something, like some really crazy shot that you're getting in your stomach.

Interviewer: Yeah. And better than the alternative.

Dr. Madsen: It's much better than the alternative. Exactly. You don't want to get rabies.

Interviewer: And is this an ER-only thing or could you do an Urgent Care for this?

Dr. Madsen: I think Urgent Cares can do this. I can't say I've looked into it specifically to see if they offer the rabies vaccine in most Urgent Cares, but it's a pretty straightforward thing. If you went there and they just said, "Hey, we don't have the vaccine here," then they're going to send you to the ER, but I think it's a reasonable place to start.

Interviewer: All right. And is there a time limit? After I get bit, is it a day? Six hours? Three hours?

Dr. Madsen: I would want to get in within the first 24 hours. Really, as soon as you can. I would not put it off, especially, like I said, because one of the vaccines, one of the injections we're giving, at the site of the wound is essentially neutralizing that virus if it's there, so the sooner, the better.

updated: March 10, 2021
originally published: July 22, 2016

Interviewer: You get bitten by a non-poisonous snake, ER or not? That's next on The Scope.

Announcer: Is it bad enough to go to the emergency room? Or isn't it? You're listening to "ER or Not" on The Scope.

Interviewer: It's the game where you get to decide whether or not you would go to the ER and then we find out the correct answer from Dr. Troy Madsen, emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. ER or not today, you are bitten by a non-poisonous snake. Is that a reason to go to the ER?

Dr. Madsen: Non-poisonous snakes, first of all, you want to know that it is a non-poisonous snake. So in Utah, we're thinking primarily about rattlesnakes being the poisonous snake here of concern. So if you know it's not a rattlesnake, if it's a little garden snake that was in your yard, you picked it up, it bit your finger, not necessarily a reason to go to the ER.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: But there is kind of one little caveat here, with this. With any bite, and we always think about it with snakebites, you have to think about tetanus. Something we have to think about with any laceration, anything like that. So if you can tell yourself, "Okay. I know I had a tetanus booster. It's been within the last 10 years. I'm covered there." In terms of the bite itself, everything's moving okay, it's not like it affected any tendons, nerves, nothing like that, it's not a real deep bite, it's probably something you can just wash out at home and not go to the ER.

Interviewer: What about infection? Is that a worry in a snakebite as well? I know it's a worry with a lot of other bites.

Dr. Madsen: It is for a lot of other bites. And again, certainly, infection is something that you think about with snakebites. But if someone comes to the ER, they've got a couple little fang marks on their finger from a snakebite, and it looks clean, it's not like a real dirty wound where they were working in the garden and their hands were real dirty and then the snakebite pushed a bunch of dirt into their finger, I'm not really going to start that person on an antibiotic for that.

Interviewer: Fascinating. So like getting bit by a dog, more worry of infection than getting bitten by a snake?

Dr. Madsen: It is. And for me, it is just because the dog bites are usually deeper. There's usually more tissue involved. I don't know. I can't say I have ever looked to see what the germ content of a dog's mouth versus a snake's mouth is.

Interviewer: There's somebody out there that probably knows.

Dr. Madsen: There probably is, but for me, it's more just the fact that the dog bites are usually a much larger area, usually deeper, usually a lot more tissue involved.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: That's why with dog bites, I am usually thinking more starting antibiotics to prevent an infection where with snakebites, typically, not such a concern, but something you have to watch out for to make sure nothing develops.

Interviewer: All right. So a non-poisonous snake bite, no need to go to the ER as long as you are sure you've had that tetanus booster within the past 10 years.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: Wash it out and just watch it, at that point.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, wash it out. You can use some antibiotic ointment on it, keep an eye on it, make sure it doesn't develop an infection.

Interviewer: And if you have not had that tetanus shot, urgent care? Can they give you...

Dr. Madsen: Urgent care is fine, yep. You get in to see your doctor within the next day or two, that's fine as well.

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Interviewer: You come back from a hike and you find that you have a tick on you. Is that something that you need to go see a doctor for? We'll talk about that next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is "From the Frontlines with Emergency Room Physician Dr. Troy Madsen" on The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen is an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. If you ever get a tick on you, is that something you need to go see a doctor about? Or is it something you can just kind of take care of on your own? Should I be a "do it myself" kind of guy with a tick or come see you?

Dr. Madsen: It's not an uncommon question. It's more of these questions where I may have a family member ask me this sort of thing, like, "I went out hiking. There's this tick."

Interviewer: Do you go to the ER for a tick?

Dr. Madsen: I wouldn't. Generally, not. It's probably something you could see your doctor for. But there are certain things you're looking for. When we think about ticks, we think about infections. We're fortunate in Utah that the more serious infections you think about with ticks aren't really such a big issue, like Lyme disease and Rocky Mountain spotted fever, which is funny. It's called Rocky Mountain spotted fever, but it's not so much in the Rocky Mountains. I think it was discovered in Denver and that's how it got its name. But it's more in the Southeast that that's an issue.

But regardless, if someone comes and they say, "Hey, I had this tick on me," I'm asking them, "How long was it on you?" They may not know exactly, but they may say, "Okay. I was camping. I've been home for two days." If that's the case, I'll say, okay, it's probably been on there at least 48 hours. Typically in those cases, we give antibiotics to prevent any kind of infection from the tick. Kind of the rule of thumb is if the tick's been there for 24 to 36 hours, we'll start antibiotics just to prevent an infection.

Now, if you've had a tick and it's been on you and you look at that spot where the tick was located and you start to see redness around there, like a circular sort of rash, maybe some puss in that wound that have kind of built up, then I'm more concerned, number one, about an infection from the tick, like a head being embedded in the wound. Or, number two, an infection that a tick has transmitted to you, like Lyme disease. Again, reasons to see a doctor.

But I think the bottom line is if you see a tick on yourself, let's say you're out camping, you pulled the tick off, you get rid of the tick, you don't need to feel like you need to rush right into the ER. Unless you're seeing some of these other things.

Interviewer: So is that the way to get rid of it? Just pull it out gently with tweezers? My dad used to go to the gas cans. I lived out on a ranch and he'd put gas in a a baby food jar and turn it upside down on the tick until it backed out. Or I've heard maybe nail polish. You put nail polish on them and they have to back out.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, I've heard these things too. Some people have said to put petroleum jelly on it because the tick breathes through its body. I'm not a tick expert. There are probably tick experts out there that are cringing as I say this.

Interviewer: So we don't know if they breathe through their body or not, is what we're saying.

Dr. Madsen: I've heard people say that and then the tick will back out. I think one of the challenges with those is sometimes, it just makes the tick sit there and just makes it kind of moist. And then it becomes harder to pull it out. The thing I've learned is just to grab some tweezers, grasp down by the tick's head.

Interviewer: As close to the head as you can get, close to the skin, probably.

Dr. Madsen: Yep. And then just pull directly back.

Interviewer: Pull straight out.

Dr. Madsen: Pull straight out and then drop the tick in some water, like a toilet or something like that so it's not climbing on someone else or climbing on your pet. Just so you're drowning the tick and getting rid of it.

Interviewer: And if you end up doing that, breaking the head off, then you need to go see a doctor? No?

Dr. Madsen: Possibly.

Interviewer: The body could handle that? Is that what you're . . .

Dr. Madsen: If you did break the head off and you came in, I would probably put you on an antibiotic for a few days and tell you to watch for signs of infection. But the reality is the head's probably not going to be that deep where it's going to cause any major issues. And it's probably just going to work its way out within a few days anyway.

Interviewer: So watch it for those other symptoms you talked about.

Dr. Madsen: Watch for those other symptoms, primarily. You're right. If you came in, I would probably say, "You've got the tick head still in there. Let's just put you on something for a few days just to prevent any infection from that."

Interviewer: But an urgent care could handle that?

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: All right. Or a doctor the next day.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly, yeah. Not an emergent thing to get into an ER.

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