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Scot: Do you ever feel like you're constantly struggling with eating well? Well, we've got some tips to help today. This is "Who Cares About Men's Health," providing information, inspiration, and sometimes a different interpretation about men's health and what you can do to be healthier.

So today's perspectives brought to you by me. My name is Scot Singpiel. I bring the BS. By the way, my guilty nutritional pleasure in is cheap trashy pizza. That's my weakness. The MD to my BS, Dr. Troy Madsen. Welcome him to the show. I understand he has a weakness for drive-thru Mexican.

Troy: I do like drive-thru Mexican.

Scot: All right. Our favorite nutritionist, Thunder Jalili, is with us as well, who has no weaknesses that we're aware of.

Thunder: No. Untrue. I have weaknesses, and I'm happy to share. I love things with chocolate.

Scot: All right. Fair enough. And Producer Mitch is a roller food aficionado.

Mitch: Yeah. I can't quit them.

Scot: Ah, can't quit them. If you want to know where the different types of roller foods are, where to go, he's your hookup. Trust me.

Mitch: Yeah.

Scot: So on "Who Cares About Men's Health," it can be really easy to end up in . . . I don't know we've ever called it this before, but I'm calling it health rabbit holes. You're focusing on these things that don't make a lot of difference to our health, like what kind of supplements should you take and what's the best exercise to be in peak performance. And it could also be really easy to get overwhelmed where to start if you're a beginner as well.

So when that happens, it's always a good idea to return to the basics. And it could be easy to discount the basics, but in football, what are the basics in football, Troy?

Troy: Basics in football? I don't know. Are you referring to just the rules of football or . . .

Scot: No. Tackle. Tackling. Good tackling. Good coverage. Those are the basics, right?

Troy: It's like you actually know what you're talking about, Scot.

Mitch: Yes. Tackle.

Troy: Tackle. Make touchdowns. That's right. That's it, yeah?

Scot: Yes. Those are the basics. So when that happens, returning to the basics is a great place to start. And it could be really easy to discount the impact of activity, nutrition, sleep, and emotional wellness, but they can make a big difference in how you feel now and in the future in your health.

So this is an episode about nutrition. It's our first episode in a series on the Core Four Plus One More: Getting Back to Basics. All of us are going to talk about our relationship with nutrition, what works for us, and where we fail in hopes that it will help you with your journey to eating better as well.

So I think the first thing to say, and I don't know that we've got to go a lot into this because I think you could get 100 men in a room and ask them, "Is nutrition important?" and they would all agree, but why exactly is it important? Thunder, do you have a couple sentences for us, the impact of nutrition on our health?

Thunder: First of all, there are nutrients that we need for optimal health to prevent deficiencies, to make sure we have enough energy to go about our daily business and to make sure all of our body systems function. That's kind of the basics.

The second layer of why nutrition is so important is because there are other things in food that actually help our bodies prevent chronic disease. So we get these chemicals, for example, in fruits and vegetables that aren't necessarily vitamins, but they have extra value in that they enhance our antioxidant defense and they help reduce the risk for things like cancer that involves oxidative damage or heart disease. So that extra layer of protection from eating good unprocessed food.

So those are my two reasons why I think nutrition is important.

Scot: And nutrition isn't just about avoiding bad stuff. It's about eating good stuff, it sounds like, is what you're talking about, to get those chemicals.

Thunder: Yeah, absolutely. And you bring up a good point, because I think too often we get fixated on avoiding this or avoiding that, and we don't think about all the things we should be eating, things that are healthy and we should be increasing.

So if we just focus on the negative of avoidance, then I think nutrition becomes a little harder. So focus on all the things you can have that are good.

Troy: Yeah. I mean, I think it just impacts so many aspects of our lives. It's not just about what we're eating, and weight, or muscle mass. It's about mental health, sleep, I think just performance in our work. It's just one of those things that it translates to . . . I think good nutrition translates just to so many aspects of what we do.

Scot: Yeah, it crosses over the core four. I mean, we do talk about the core four, right? But they don't live in isolation. Each one impacts the other. And when you're eating well and getting the things your body needs, you sleep better, you're able to deal with stress better, and you're more likely to engage in activity.

So we're at the point where we're going to talk about some of the tips that have worked for us to incorporate better eating habits, better nutrition into our lives. Each one of us has three things. Maybe one of these things might work for you. That's the hope.

But before we get to that advice, here are some of the basics when it comes to nutrition.

Reduce or eliminate the amount of processed foods you eat because they really lack the vitamins and minerals and they can have a lot of calories.

Reduce added sugar, whether it's hidden sugar like in yogurt that you didn't realize was there or if it's just getting rid of sodas or trying to reduce sodas or those coffee drinks.

Reduce your alcohol consumption.

Try to stick to a plant-based diet or a Mediterranean-type diet. Those have been proven time and time again as good diets.

So those are kind of the basics, right? Those are the things you should kind of start working through.

Now let's get to the advice that we have that we've either learned through personal experience or learned on this podcast that might help you do those things or that might be just a piece of advice that reframed something for us that made it a little bit easier.

So let's start with you, Thunder.

Thunder: Okay. So my three pieces of advice are, one, focus on adding the foods you really like rather than being fixated on all the things that you cannot eat. So if you like blueberries, find ways to add blueberries in your diet. Mix them with your yogurt, put them in your oatmeal, things like that. Find ways to add the foods you like.

Number two, and I may be kind of stealing from Mitch a little bit, because I have a feeling he may go here, but number two is find creative ways through a cookbook or something to make your food and to make it a social experience, to do it with your family, to do it with your friends where you all get to make a meal together that's healthy and enjoy it. That can be a bonding experience and a very positive social experience.

Number three is utilize the power of the smoothie. Smoothies are great. You can put virtually any kind of fruit or vegetable you want in a smoothie and, miraculously, it always ends up tasting pretty good. My wife puts crazy things in smoothies and I'm oftentimes afraid to drink them, but then they end up being pretty good. So utilize the power of the smoothie to add all those plant-based foods that we're always telling you that you should eat.

Troy: What does it take to make it taste good? Are you throwing in all kinds of crazy vegetables and then . . . I don't know. What's the secret to make it taste good?

Scot: Yeah, like kale and rutabaga. What's going in there?

Mitch: Rutabaga?

Thunder: Extra rutabaga.

Troy: What's the secret sauce here?

Thunder: I'll tell you guys. The secret of a smoothie that'll overcome any kind of weird things you put in there -- pineapple, sweet pineapple.

Troy: Oh, I like that.

Thunder: You can put spinach, kale, chia seeds, rutabaga, but as long as you add pineapple . . .

Scot: What? You act like rutabaga is bad.

Thunder: Well, it's one of those foods I don't typically . . . It's not my first choice. But add pineapple and you're golden.

Scot: And that's good for our digestion.

Troy: So not pineapple juice?

Thunder: Not pineapple juice. Put in the actual pineapples because if you put in the actual pineapple chunks, you're getting fiber out of it, right? And that's one of our benefits of having a smoothie.

Troy: And let me guess. You've got frozen pineapple in your freezer, chunks of pineapple you just dump in there.

Thunder: Absolutely.

Troy: I love it.

Scot: Make it simple.

Troy: Awesome.

Scot: Good three pieces of advice. Mitch, what do you have?

Mitch: So, for me, the biggest thing is to . . . Everything that you can do to make sure that your nutrition is not a chore. That's the biggest thing that I think comes with any of our core four, is that it just seems insurmountable. There are a million things that you've got to remember, etc.

So for mine, one, macros, while they are important to kind of keep in mind, make sure that numbers aren't the only thing that's involved with your nutrition. Whether or not you succeeded in having a good food day is not whether or not you hit your numbers absolutely perfectly. It's whether or not you ate things that helped you do what you want to do.

Second is to find food that you enjoy, right? I think back to our Theresa Dvorak series and our man meals and everything that TD shared with us, is making sure that you not only have the food around that you enjoy eating, but you know how to make, it's easy, it's comfortable, you've practiced. So cooking healthy for yourself is not difficult, is not a chore.

And then I guess the one that Thunder kind of stole for me with the cookbook and the social thing is that make sure that cooking and eating is fun, right? You want to make sure that you are trying new things. You're looking for new ways to kind of eat healthily. Find ways to replace bad foods in your diet rather than just focusing on what to cut out, and making meals this caloric intake that you take two to three times a day. Make sure that it's actually a meal and it's something you enjoy.

Scot: That really speaks to me because for a long time I ate the same things over and over and day in and day out, mainly because I was trying to get those macros, right? I was trying to get my protein, my carbohydrates. I mean, it was good, because I was having chicken breasts usually with just very little seasoning on it. I was eating brown rice. I was eating vegetables. But I'll tell you, it got boring after a while, and I started to stray.

Theresa, TD, really kind of brought me back around to show me that you can still have those healthy ingredients in a meal and you can vary it up. The Buddha bowls were great because you just put a different sauce on it. Boom, different meal.

So in order to be consistent, which is one of the main things with any of our core four, consistency rules, it's got to be something you enjoy. So that really resonated with me, Mitch.

My list here, number one, portion sizes. I think we've been used to such large portion sizes that you've kind of got to reprogram that. I used to weigh my foods, so I have a pretty good idea, but any time I suggest that to somebody, their eyes glaze over. And I don't blame them, really.

So what I've done is in your plate collection, you've got the big plate, and then you've got kind of a smaller plate, and then you've got the little saucer plate, right? So I use that smaller plate now as opposed to the big plate. What happens when you have a big plate? You want to fill it up, right?

Also, I haven't used it, but I've heard a lot of people that have had success with the MyPlate, which is another way to kind of look at your portion sizes and make sure you're kind of getting the right foods on there.

Number two, don't think the objective of eating healthy is to lose weight. It's really to provide your body with the nutrients that it needs. Losing weight is a whole different deal. I think a lot of times we ask our nutrition to do something else, which is lose weight, so then when we don't lose weight, we're like, "Well, what's the point of me eating healthy?"

And a lot of times those benefits of eating healthy can be invisible. Sometimes not so much. I notice a difference when I eat healthy versus when I don't in my energy levels, in my mood, in my ability to sleep.

But I think you need to think that eating healthy, the objective is to get your body the nutrients you need to feed your soul as well, as Thunder has talked about. I really like that. Thunder and Mitch.

And number three, have those four or five simple recipes that have healthy ingredients. Make them in bulk so you have them for lunches for the rest of the week. That's huge for me. Having that stuff accessible is just crucial for not reaching for the stuff that you might regret later.

Troy, what's on your list?

Troy: Well, Scot, the first thing I'm going to say here goes completely against something you already said, but I think here we're talking about things that work for us. The thing that works for me, and again, it probably kind of strays away from the idea of the variation you talked about, but is having a food routine. I find the thing that really works for me is I have the same thing for breakfast, I have the same thing for lunch, I have the same snacks. And I know that's completely different than what you said. For whatever reason, that works for me.

But then I kind of mix things up at dinner, and maybe that's probably the takeaway here, is to find what works for you. That works for me, having the variation at dinner, but pretty much having the same thing breakfast. I know I'm getting a banana in the morning. I know I'm going to snack on some fruit in the afternoon. I know I'm going to have some peanuts in the afternoon. I know I'm going to have hummus and Triscuits for lunch. That's my lunch.

Scot: Wow.

Troy: I know.

Thunder: Wow. You're like the metronome of nutrition.

Troy: I hate to even admit this. I find that I say too many things on this podcast that then I later regret revealing. But that's what works for me for whatever reason. It's not quite the Soylent diet, but maybe it's close.

Scot: Hey, Thunder and Mitch, would that work for you, the same thing over and over again? How would that work for you?

Troy: Probably not.

Thunder: There are a few things that I do eat very, very regularly, like Troy. I have oatmeal and smoothies a lot. But beyond that, I really like to try to mix it up a little bit. But you know what? I think that's another kind of element of good nutrition. We're kind of beating up on Troy.

Troy: Fair enough.

Thunder: And maybe we shouldn't, because you do end up eating the same types of foods fairly regularly when you are trying to go for healthy choices. But you know what? If you eat a unhealthy processed diet, you're probably doing the same thing. You're probably going to those same foods in that diet as well.

Scot: Yeah. And I think maybe that's kind of where this came from. My diet used to be sugary breakfast cereal every day. I thought it was healthy. It was Frosted Mini Wheats, but it's frosted and it's got a lot of sugar. That was my breakfast.

Thunder: That's the giveaway.

Troy: Yeah, that's the giveaway. My lunch every day, I used to buy these chicken strips, these fried chicken strips, whatever, and I would heat those in the microwave and I would make a sandwich that I'd melt cheese on. That was my lunch every day. And so I was kind of doing the same thing with just an unhealthy diet with processed foods and sugary foods.

So again, like you said, Thunder, we may all kind of do that subconsciously where we just kind have our go-tos, and those go-tos aren't healthy. For me, it just works to say, "These are my go-tos," and I crave those things. I get up in the morning and I crave a protein drink and a protein bar. I really look forward to it and a banana. It's just a good way to start the day.

I don't know. That's what works for me. So that's number one for me.

So, number two, and I think I kind of just mentioned a little bit there, is to create good cravings. It's funny. We've talked about being vegetarian and that, and it's funny. I came to a point several years ago where I thought, "I'm a vegetarian and I don't eat vegetables. That doesn't make a lot of sense."

Thunder: That's incredibly skillful that you can do that.

Troy: It's pretty remarkable, but it was a lot of processed foods. So, yeah, it was vegetarian, but it wasn't healthy. So I think creating good cravings.

I really tried to bring more fruits and vegetables into my diet, have a salad every night for dinner, and now I find that I crave those things. I love having a good orange. Before, I just was not into eating fruits, and now I just love having, like I said, that banana in the morning, a good orange, or an apple, or I love having salad in the evening.

So if you can create those good cravings where you look forward to those things, I think that, again, makes the diet much more sustainable and enjoyable.

And then I think the last piece of advice I would give people is something that I've heard people do, and I did, and then I eliminated it and it made a difference, and that's cheat days. So I would have cheat days where I would say, "One day a week, I don't care what I eat." And then I found I was binging on those days.

I was getting the takeout from Domino's, and it wasn't just the pizza. It was also the brownies, and it was also the cinnamon twists, and I was eating the whole thing. And that's probably not a good thing in terms of just diet. And then I would find I really, really looked forward to those days and I would take advantage of those.

So I think eliminating that has also helped to shift those cravings to the healthier foods, like I mentioned. Again, maybe you just need that cheat day just to kind of let loose and have some foods you're not eating otherwise, but I've personally found that eliminating that has been better for me.

Scot: Thunder, do you have a cheat day? Do you do that?

Thunder: Nope. I don't do cheat days, but if I want to have something I know is unhealthy once in a while, I don't beat myself up over it because I recognize that 90% of what I eat falls under what we would consider healthy foods.

Troy: Yeah. And that's something I should say too. It's not like I'm saying, "Oh, I'm never going to have a brownie or a dessert or something," but I found that when I was doing the cheat days, I was kind of starting to binge on those things a little bit.

Scot: It was just an all-day gorge fest.

Troy: Yeah, exactly. Maybe not quite all day all, but . . .

Thunder: Taco Bell in each hand and just going crazy.

Troy: Yeah. It was just like, "Man, I am definitely ordering and we're going for it."

Scot: We're going for it.

Troy: "I'm making up for the other six days of this week."

Thunder: For those same reasons that Troy articulated, I don't like cheat days. And I know there are actually diets out there that have that, like, "Saturday is your free day." I don't really like that. I think you should be mindful all the time, but, again, if you want to have something unhealthy once in a while, it's not a big deal.

If I want to have ice cream, give me the ice cream. I don't care how much fat and sugar is in it. But I'm not going to eat that ice cream every day or even once a week. For me, maybe it's once or twice a month.

I think that's a more healthy way of approaching it. You're not putting up a barrier. But if you have it, you're not going to also punish yourself for it either.

Scot: For me, cheat days are difficult because then I get a taste for all that sweet stuff again and it's hard to switch back. I don't know if it's something maybe like Mitch quitting smoking. If you were to have a cigarette after you quit and then a couple days . . . Like, every Friday you decide, "Oh, I could just smoke as much as want," that would make it a little harder to quit again, wouldn't it?

Mitch: Mm-hmm.

Thunder: That's like the alcoholic example. People who are alcoholics and they don't drink, they don't drink at all because they would just fall back into that behavior. I think maybe some people, when it comes to food, would fall in that same category. If they have a cheat day, they would just totally fall off the wagon, like you were saying, versus just having a little bit once in a while saying, "Okay, I can handle that, but I'm not giving myself a whole free day just to go crazy."

Scot: All right. Before we wrap up here, has anybody's advice changed the advice you would give, or does everybody feel pretty good about their advice?

Thunder: I'm good with it.

Troy: Yeah, I feel good with it, but I think it's worth noting, obviously, Thunder is a nutritionist. He knows what he's talking about. I'm just trying to figure this out. So I think any advice I give, it's always evolving. I have learned so much from the podcast, and from Thunder in particular, that has really helped to refine my approach to nutrition. I think hidden sugars have been a huge thing for me and looking at that. And then also just, again, as we talked about with the Mediterranean diet.

I think anyone's approach to diet changes over time, and I think we refine it and figure what works and what doesn't work. We're not going to be perfect and we might have some failures along the way, but we just keep working on it and figure what we like and what's sustainable.

Scot: Yeah, because that's really the trick, isn't it? I think most of us kind of know what we should and shouldn't be doing. But actually executing that in the world we live in where we're all busy and where there are other things that taste really good and where sometimes we're like, "Well, maybe just a little comfort meal." How to actually do that is trial and error, and it is going to vary for every person.

Thunder: Good keyword that Troy used by saying "sustainable." That's really the ultimate goal of all this.

Troy: Yeah, sustainable. And I like, Thunder, how you also mentioned you don't beat yourself up. It's like, "Okay. I had some ice cream. Whatever." Don't beat yourself up. You're doing well. Keep working on the good stuff and occasionally you're going to have some sweets and all that. Maybe you may take some steps back, but I think as long as you just keep working on it, things continue to improve over time. So that's the goal.

Thunder: Yeah, that's all part of enjoying food.

Scot: What's worked for you? Do you struggle with something in particular? We would love to hear what your strategies are, how you get through it. Or if you have a question, maybe you'd like some insight from somebody on the podcast, let us know. It's really easy to reach out to us.

Troy: Yeah, you can contact us. Email us at hello@thescoperadio.com. You can contact us on Facebook, facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. Give us a call on our listener line, 601-55SCOPE. And check out our website, www.whocaresmenshealth.com.

Scot: All right. And most important, share this episode if you know somebody that would benefit from listening.

The next episode in the Core Four: Back to Basics series is about activity. We'll go through why that's important and some of our strategies to get activity into our life.

Thanks for listening and thanks for caring about men's health.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot: It's a Sideshow episode of "Who Cares About Men's Health," and it's a very festive Sideshow episode. It's our Christmas episode where all three of us pick out three gifts each that you can give to somebody in your life that would help them be healthier. Not like the hardcore healthier, but the kind of health that we talk about on the show. So it might impact the core four or it might impact something else.

My name is Scot. I bring the BS to the "Who Cares About Men's Health Podcast." And to counter that, the MD to my BS is Dr. Troy Madsen.

Troy: I'm here and I've got my gifts with me. I'm so excited.

Scot: And Mitch Sears, Producer Mitch in the mix.

Mitch: I'm ready for today.

Scot: Who wants to start?

Troy: Oh, so much pressure. Who's it going to be?

Scot: All right, Troy. Why don't you go ahead and start since you've probably put more thought in this than the rest of us?

Troy: I've put a little bit of thought into this, but I have based my gifts on gifts that have been inspired by our guests this past year. So each gift relates to one of our guests.

So my first gift I'm going to give, Scot, is a wellness coach appointment. And we kind of said at the start we were going to try and keep these gifts under $40 each. So I looked at Peak Fitness through the University and you can get a 30-minute appointment with a wellness coach for $35. And that's as a member of the general public, not a university employee.

This is a tribute to listener Scott who set up an appointment with a dietician, but I think also was looking kind of for a wellness coach. So that would be my gift. You give this to someone and say, "Hey, it's free. I paid for it. Just do it. Just get whatever you can out of it." It's 30 minutes, and it might be something that helps point them a certain direction in terms of their general health and maybe gives them some ideas.

Mitch: Now, I actually did one of these a while ago. I think we mentioned it on a previous episode about Mitch's personal health journey, and they're great. I mean, in those 30 minutes . . . I ended up doing additional ones with this person, but they were able to take baselines, they were able to give me some directions on where to go, they were able to give me resources on types of workouts that might work best for me, numbers of dieticians to call, etc. And it was really nice. In that 30 minutes, I was able to get at least started in the right direction to improve my physical health and my nutrition. What a great idea.

Troy: That's cool.

Scot: Awesome gift.

Troy: Yeah, I remember you mentioning that now that you said that. That's cool that it wasn't just 30 minutes, like, "Okay, let's get some info." But they really gave you something to work with. So that would be my idea. You give that to someone, they can take out of it what they want, and hopefully come away with something useful.

Scot: One of the challenges can be just getting started or knowing what direction to get started in or getting some resources to get started, because it can be a little overwhelming at first, as we've learned when we've talked to our couple of listeners.

I'm not saying that they were overwhelmed, but I'm saying as we went through the thought process of what kind of advice to give, it's kind of a challenge if somebody has never really ever actively engaged in what they eat or actively engaged in types of exercises. So good call.

Troy: It's a starting point, yeah.

Scot: All right, Mitch. Gift number one from you.

Mitch: In the same vein, I was looking up online . . . One of the things that we talk about a lot is kind of this idea of getting social connections. It's good for your mental health, but I also wanted to mix in how do we make sure that we're doing nutrition and things.

A cooking class. I found some group rates on cooking classes that we can come in under that $50 range, get a couple people, and go learn how to cook something new. It doesn't have to be 100% the healthiest food ever, but just the practice of learning to cook.

I think about the series that we did this year with Theresa Dvorak, TD. And just those recipes that I learned how to do, I'm doing them. And so by getting out, by going and learning how to do another dish, what a great way to start cooking for yourself again.

Troy: Yeah, that's a great way. I was the person in this who had no idea what he was doing, and I think for someone who has maybe no experience with cooking, a cooking class would be intimidating, but I'd be like, "Hey, it's a gift. It's free. I'm not paying for it. I'm just going to go there and enjoy it and then probably walk away feeling more comfortable in the kitchen." So that's a great idea.

Mitch: Well, go with them. If they're nervous, get yourself a ticket too. The two of you can go and cook together.

Troy: Go together, yeah.

Scot: Yeah, that takes care of that emotional health because you're getting some good relationships in there, and then maybe you might learn some skills in the kitchen, what some of those confusing words mean in recipes, some knife skills, that sort of thing. So that's a great idea.

My first one is also about cooking, and it was inspired by our series with Theresa Dvorak, the healthy man meals that you can make in bulk that are easy. I thought maybe some sort of a healthy cookbook with quick and easy recipes.

So we learned that preparing good food not only can help your emotional health, but it helps your physical health as well. For me, it was kind of a meditative state almost when I was in the kitchen and it feels good to make food for somebody else.

And I know Troy's spouse was really excited, and so was mine in a way that I haven't really seen her excited about other things that I've done around the house. I mean, that was really gratifying from an emotional standpoint.

I just Googled "healthy cookbook quick and easy recipes," and started kind of going through some.

Now, if you're not sure what type of cookbook to get, maybe go back to our healthy man meals series, go through those, and you might be able to have a better idea of what to look for.

I found one called "Easy 5-Ingredient Healthy Cookbook: Simple Recipes to Make Healthy Eating Delicious." It looked like she had a spaghetti squash recipe like we made. It looked like she had some sort of a Thai Curry thing like we made. That's $19.

And I'm going to take it another step further. Maybe do what we do. Find a friend and then make them . . . Say, "On Saturdays, we're going to both make the recipes and then talk to each other and compare notes."

It gives you something to talk about. It's good motivation. We know that when you do something with somebody else, you're more likely to do it as opposed to just going, "Eh, that's not a big deal."

And one last option that could be free. Maybe you put together a few recipes, there are a lot of free recipes online, and make up your own little cookbook for a friend, somebody maybe who wants to eat out less or wants to eat better.

I don't know how to package that as a present, though. I don't know if you put it in a physical binder or something like that, but if money is an issue or you have some favorite easy recipes you like, you could go back and use the ones that we offered in our series as a starting point, because we posted those online.

That's my idea.

Troy: Yeah, I like it. And even with that, Scot, maybe you give them those recipes you found online and say, "Hey, I'll come over and we'll make one of these together," or something like that. Make it more, again, that social thing, like Mitch was talking about. Also a great idea.

Scot: Yep. And I'll tell you if you listen to that series, having recipes you can make and then having recipes that you have food in the fridge makes all the difference because then when you're hungry, it's there. You don't have to make a choice. You don't have to go for the poorer options.

Mitch: So one of the things I want to say is being someone who got way into cooking for a while and got a bunch of cookbooks, and my partner is way into cookbooks, if you're looking for a cookbook and you're looking and you're trying to find one for someone who isn't the biggest cook already, stay away from some of the more complicated ones. They look really nice, they look really fancy, but if you get some of these really technical cookbooks, they are so overwhelming even for the more experienced cook.

If you're trying to give the gift to someone who is just starting out, be sure to find to cookbook that's on that level.

Troy: And didn't you mention one on the show? I thought you mentioned one that starts off super easy, like making eggs.

Mitch: "America's Test Kitchen." They have a cookbook series that's 101 recipes, and it really does. It starts out, "Here is an egg. Here is how you cook an egg. Here's what makes an egg delicious." And you kind of roll your eyes at it, but suddenly your scrambled eggs are the most delicious scrambled eggs you've ever had.

It's not just what you made in college, and it's like, "All right. Let's see what I can do next," rather than . . . I don't know. There's a Gordon Ramsay book that I've been handed before and it's like, "I can't even pronounce half the ingredients or know where they are in the store. No, thank you, Gordon Ramsay. I appreciate it, but . . ."

Troy: I'm liking the idea of the "America's Test Kitchen" 101 Recipes. That's a good way to go.

Scot: One last thought I have on that that you maybe think about. The best scrambled eggs ever, it's food that then maybe you will look forward to eating that's just as good as some of that fast food. We all know that the fast-food restaurants have labs and they chemically engineer that food to be addictive. I mean, in order to battle that, you've got to make some decent food. So I like that. That's good.

Troy, circling it back around to you for number two.

Troy: Okay, gift number two. This is inspired by Chris Gee when he talked about "nerd neck." So this is a laptop stand. As I'm sitting here at my desk right now, I'm thinking, "I wish I had one of these," because I hunch over my laptop. A lot of us are working from home in areas that are just not at all ergonomically suited for us, and we hunch over our laptops and now we're spending hours and hours doing this every day.

So these laptop stands lift the laptop up and tilt it towards you to create a more ergonomically suitable environment where the laptop screen is at your eye level and the keyboard is up higher. So it's more comfortable just for your back, your neck, your hands, everything.

You can find these for $20, $30 online, and just a nice gift, something to hopefully prevent the "nerd neck" or help someone treat it if they're already experiencing it.

Scot: Love it, especially because we know that when you have poor posture, not only does it not look right, but we know those muscles get tightened. And in a state of tightened, they start to get weakened, and then you could be more likely to hurt yourself when you do exercise and do those sorts of things. So preventing that is super crucial.

Mitch, gift number two.

Mitch: All right. So gift number two is now thinking a little outside the box. Thinking about sleep hygiene and some of the stuff that Kelly Baron has talked about, one of the original gag gifts, which has significantly changed my life, is a toilet light. Do you guys have toilet lights? Do you know what toilet lights are?

Troy: No. This is a light on the toilet to help you at night so you're . . .

Mitch: Yes.

Troy: Interesting.

Mitch: They're like $10. You can get them on whatever online source. And it seems so ridiculous. They come in different colors. They perch on the side of your toilet. But what happens is in the middle of the night, if you need to go to the bathroom, rather than turning on a light, it has a blue-light-blocking, non-sleep-disturbing light so you can see exactly where the toilet is and you don't have to turn any lights on.

And I cannot tell you . . . It started out as a "ha-ha" funny gift, "thanks for the white elephant gift." That thing has broken and I have replaced it twice now. It is such a vital thing in our environment. We have the bidet. We could go into the bidet. A good bidet is expensive. But just that idea of waking up, not having your sleep being disturbed, go right back to bed. No need to turn on the light.

Scot: You don't have to turn on the big bright lights.

Mitch: Nope. It's wonderful. It's beyond wonderful. Toilet light. Look them up.

Troy: I am looking it up. I'm already intrigued because this sounds great. You stumble in the bathroom at like 2:00 in the morning. Number one, your partner is going to appreciate it because it's probably going to help a little bit with the aim. But number two, it probably makes it that much easier, like you said, to go back to sleep because you're not flipping on lights. And if your bathroom is right next to your bedroom, it's not disturbing your partner or whatever. So it sounds like that's a gift for the whole family.

Mitch: Absolutely.

Scot:All right. That was a good one. My number two is not necessarily inspired by anybody, but it's going to help with sleep as well. I'm completely copying Mitch, it sounds like, because every category he has put out there, I come in with something after that.

Mitch: Did you also get a toilet light?

Scot: No. A white noise machine for sleep. So these things, you plug in. They're $20 to $30, and you can get just the white noise, which is that noise or fans or they make the . . . These things you can change the noise. You could have a brook or sea waves or birds or bonfire or train. I don't know who uses trains, but whatever. I like the sea waves and the rain myself.

I started using it more and more when we got our new dog because our new dog is a little bit of a heavy breather when he sleeps. So it covers that really well, and it helps me get to sleep.

In the summertime, we have fans in our windows that run, so that drowns out noise. And then at the end of that summer season, it's so deathly quiet in the house it's almost disturbing.

They're cool, too, because you can take them along with you. They're very portable. They just use a little USB cord. So if you go to a hotel or something and you need a little help sleeping, they're $20 to $30. So just a little white noise machine for sleep.

Troy: Yeah, I love having white noise. I have an app I use on my phone, but I use it with headphones. I actually have these headphones I can sleep with. I started doing that several years ago. I had white noise before, but doing this, I'm just like, "I don't care. We're traveling, dogs are barking, I'm trying to sleep during the day, I don't care. I can't hear it." I have noise-blocking headphones and I use white noise. Yeah, a white machine, anything like that, I agree, I think it helps sleep for sure.

Scot: All right. Gift number three and the final gift. Troy saved the best for last. This better be good.

Troy: It better be good? So the theme here, it seems we all keep talking about TD, about Theresa Dvorak, and the amazing series she did with us on cooking. This gift would make her proud.

So my final gift is a windowsill herb garden. You can buy these little things. It's like a little herb garden. Just imagine how proud Theresa would be if we emailed her in a couple months and told her we made our recipes again with mint we grew ourselves, parsley, basil, oregano.

I had a hard time finding these things in the store, but it would be so cool to grow it and then use it in your recipe and just be like, "Not only did I make this, I also grew some of the ingredients."

So just a fun little gift, I think, for if you know someone who cooks or even maybe someone who doesn't cook a lot. Maybe even combine that with Scot's gift of the cooking book, or Mitch's gift of the cooking class, something fun like that. It'd be kind of cool to do.

Scot: I don't know if you guys have ever had plants before. Again, we come back to mental and emotional health. I find pleasure taking care of plants and watching them grow. That's just kind of neat. So not only would it help maybe make your recipes pop a little bit more, it might help your emotional health.

Troy: Agreed. Yeah, a little something for the winter months to bring a little life into your home and then make a nice meal in February.

Scot: Yeah. All right. Number three for me is something called YogaToes. I've sent you guys a picture of what they look like, and I'm going to try to describe them. Help me with this. So these are things you put over each one of your toes, but what they do is they kind of spread your toes out.

So I don't know if you ever did this when you were a kid? Put marbles between your toes.

Mitch: No.

Troy: Yeah. And walk around with them? Yeah.

Scot: I mean, I was a weird kid I guess.

Troy: I did it too.

Scot: Oh, you did? Okay.

Troy: Oh, yeah.

Scot: Imagine putting marbles between your toes. What YogaToes are is they spread your toes out in the same sort of way, except it's not marbles. It's a silicone/rubbery sort of thing, and you put those things on.

I'll tell you, when I was training for my marathon or if I had days where . . . I'd take them on trips with me, like when I went to New York one time and I got in 20,000 or 25,000 steps. My feet were just sore.

You put these on, it stretches out your toes, it helps your calves feel better, it helps your toes feel better, the bottoms of your feet.

And I just put them on when I'm watching TV. You put them on 10 or 15 minutes a day and it's amazing what a difference it makes.

I think feet are really ignored a lot of times, and I noticed as I was getting older, my toes were starting to kind of get into weird shapes and I couldn't even physically move my toes separately anymore, which I think could be a problem. I started using these YogaToes and started kind of wiggling my toes and doing toe exercises, and it makes a huge difference in how my feet feel at the end of the day. So that's my gift number three.

They've got various kinds and they're various prices. My only tip is if you use them, use them for only five minutes a day at first. You've got to get used to them. Otherwise, you can hurt yourself, like with any muscle thing that you do. I mean, it's crazy.

Troy: Yeah, I'm looking at that. I want to try those. That looks really cool. Yeah, I think it's that gel kind of stuff, it looks like, and that feel having that between your toes. Like you said, there's nothing . . . I don't know. I'm a huge believer, too, in taking care of your feet, and I think this could go a long way toward helping, like you said, your intrinsic muscles of your feet feel better and really working out some of that soreness there. So I'm thinking if I don't get this for Christmas, I'm buying it for myself.

Mitch: "I would like that."

Scot: Dropping a little hint. All right, Mitch. Gift number three from you.

Mitch: Okay. So being just a touch off-color again, this is inspired by a gift I got years ago from my parents, who are listeners. Hi, Mom. Hi, Dad.

Troy: Hey, Mitch's mom. Hey, Mitch's dad.

Mitch: Hey. Just awkward question, how much have you paid for the pair of underwear you are wearing right now?

Troy: How much have you paid?

Mitch: Yes. Is it a six-pack that you get from Smith's? Is that what you are wearing right now?

Troy: I will say it is not expensive. I will tell you that.

Scot: No. And I will also tell you it's time to be replaced.

Troy: I think this is just a guy thing. Underwear, you're just like, "Who's going to see it? I don't care."

Mitch: Exactly.

Troy: I don't know when I bought this underwear. It's been around a long time. I couldn't put a year on it, but yeah.

Scot: All right, Mitch. You've got us intrigued. Are we going to splurge? We're going to splurge on something?

Mitch: Yes. This is the year that you buy the $30 pair of underwear. I cannot tell you . . .

Scot: I don't know.

Mitch: No, I know you are like . . . I don't know if I've brought this up before, but this is the way that a lot of people respond to it. I was the same way until my sweet parents got me a pair. And they're like, "This has been life-changing. Your father loves them. Try them."

They got me and Jonathan a pair. They're amazing. I cannot tell you, when I started running, there's no rubbing. There are no problems with sweating down there. There's no anything. They're amazing. Everything stays where it's supposed to be, they wash up really good, they last forever, and that's kind of it.

We spend our whole lives doing these cheapo pair of underwear that we just throw away and we don't even look at the options. I'm just going to tell you I've tried a bunch of different brands. I'm not going go too far into them, but SAXX, Separatec, there's a whole bunch of different ones. Some that are more geared towards runners, different activities, but they all are about $30 and everyone just gasps and it's like, "Ugh, $30 for underwear? Why?"

Scot: I don't even pay $30 for dress pants or jeans.

Mitch: I know.

Troy: My shirts are around $20.

Mitch: That's why I'm saying just one. Just one to try it out.

Troy: And are these boxers or boxer briefs?

Mitch: Whatever you need. They come in briefs. They come in boxer brief, loose-fit boxer, long-leg, trunk. I'm a big trunk guy. I love the trunks.

Troy: See, I just feel like if you had that, though, you would wear it once and then obviously you're not going to wear it multiple days, and then you would just be . . . Are you washing these every day, or do you just feel like, "Now I've got to buy 10 pairs of these so I can just have them and have them every day"?

Mitch: I mean, you will eventually find yourself spending a whole lot of money on underwear, but I'm just going to tell you it's night and day. I have never gone back. There's been a time or two when you're on Week 2 of not doing laundry and you're back to the old underwear, and it's like, "What am I doing to myself?"

Scot: "What am I doing with my life?"

Mitch: Right. And that's why I'm saying go out and just get one. Just try it out.

Troy: Yeah. Obviously, women are a whole lot better about this than we are as guys. They clearly will buy nice underwear, and it doesn't have to be like anyone is seeing it or anything. It's just like, "I just want to feel good." And us, as guys, we're just like, "Hey, I don't care. I've got my $2 pair of underwear," or whatever it is from the multipack. But yeah, it's a great idea. Something that you're comfortable in.

Too, like you said, I think if you're participating in any kind of athletic thing, if you're running, whatever, it does make a difference. If you're wearing cotton underwear while you're running, forget it. You're going to be so chafed up. It's just miserable.

Mitch: Exactly.

Troy: And maybe that's it too. Maybe's it's a nice pair, like you said, that you're wearing on a daily basis. And maybe if you know someone who's an athlete who would just like a nice pair underwear, you get them a nice pair of whatever. Nike, Under Armour, they all make some more expensive, nice underwear for working out.

Scot: Well, there you go. Three guys, nine Christmas presents for people that are perhaps interested in becoming a little bit more healthy. So if you get any of these, be sure to let us know. There are lots of ways to reach out to us, which Troy will tell you about now.

Troy: Oh, man. We have not done this in months. You have your little tag on the end, you do, so I've forgotten everything, but I know you can . . .

Scot: All right. I'll go ahead and take care of it.

Troy: I'll try. You can contact . . . we're on Facebook at facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. On the web, whocaresmenshealth.com. You can email us at hello@thescoperadio.com. Or you can call our listener line. We would love to hear from you. It is 601-55SCOPE. Did I get that right?

Mitch: Yes.

Scot: You got it right. You did it all.

Troy: Sweet.

Scot: Nice work. All right. And if you do any of these Christmas presents, let us know how it works out for you. Thanks for listening, and thanks for caring about men's health. "Jingle Bells" me out.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot S: Time for a Listener Scot update. We met Scot back in July. He said he was a little bit overweight. His blood pressure was a little bit high. He felt like he was active enough, but he wanted to get things a little bit more under control, so he asked us what we thought. And boy, did we tell him what we thought.

So, today, it's our Scot update episode. How is Scot doing, and are there some lessons that anyone trying to get a little bit more healthy, lose a little bit of weight, or try to affect those numbers can learn?

This is "Who Cares about Men's Health," providing information, inspiration, and a different interpretation about men's health. I am Scot Singpiel. The MD to my B.S. is co-host Dr. Troy Madsen.

Troy: I'm here.

Scot S: You sound so happy about it too.

Troy: Present.

Scot S: Producer Mitch is in the mix.

Mitch: Hey there.

Scot S: We've got Thunder Jalili, who is our guy that has a PhD in eatology. He's a nutritionist extraordinaire.

Thunder: Hi, everyone. I'm happy to be here, unlike Troy.

Scot S: Good.

Troy: Thanks, Thunder.

Scot S: And our guest today is Listener Scot. How you doing today, Scot?

Scot: I'm doing all right. I'm glad to be here.

Scot S: All right. So, Scot, when we left off back in July, which was when we talked to you, what was the plan of action that you took away from our conversation so you could work on your weight and your blood pressure, which was just a little bit high?

Scot: So the primary takeaways that I had were, one, I really need more minutes of exercise per week, hopefully getting up there towards 30 minutes a day, as well as go talk to a dietitian. So those were the two big things.

There was another one of like, "As you're doing your desk job, make sure you get up and do some exercises. Sit on an exercise ball, if you can get one, for a couple hours a day." So there were those ancillary things as well, but that was my main "This is what I can do at this time."

Scot S: All right. And how did it go on any of those things?

Scot: So, with the exercising, I did quite a bit more as far as more frequently, as well as different things. So I did a lot of running and biking before, and I tried to do more inside cardio. Not really weightlifting, because I don't really have big weights or anything. My body is heavy enough. But that didn't last too long because I just hurt all day every day, and realized that, at very least at this time, I cannot maintain that frequency and duration of exercising. And so I cut it back. I am currently more than I was when we originally talked, but not as much as 210 minutes a week.

Scot S: Okay, so 210 minutes. So you were doing consistently 30 minutes a day at that point?

Scot: I sure was trying. It certainly felt like 210 minutes. And it might have been "instructions unclear" type thing, where I was under the impression that it was 30 minutes of sweating. So a casual walk down the street wouldn't have counted towards my 30 minutes. And maybe that's one of the places where I went wrong.

Thunder: I would actually think that 30 minutes of sweating is a good guide. And you can sweat when you walk as well. It depends on how fast you walk, or whether you're walking uphill, so it doesn't necessarily mean you're maybe out there sprinting for 30 minutes.

Troy: But it sounds like doing that, though, you were feeling it. You're talking sore muscles? Are you talking injuries? Or what did you experience exactly?

Scot: So mostly sore muscles, kind of sore joints. I did notice that the more strength training that I did, the less my knee bothered me as far as, "Hey, if you do a bunch of squats, when you go running, your knee won't hurt you as much." And so I did notice that that improved. It did not go away, but it did improve considerably.

Troy: Interesting. But it sounds like at this point, though, at least you're doing more than you were doing before that.

Scot: Yeah, that's kind of what the exercising happened with. The big things are my weight has gone down. So I was almost consistently like 180 every morning. Well, every morning that I measured. And now I'm generally down somewhere around 177, but it's kind of plateaued there for the last three weeks or so. So it's been an improvement. It went down a little bit more than that when I was exercising a ton, but I just couldn't maintain that.

Scot S: Hey, Thunder and Troy, one of the words that Scot did not mention when he talked about his 30 minutes a day is intensity. And it sounds like maybe the intensity was a little too much too fast. What do you guys think of that?

Thunder: Yeah, I think that's maybe one of the factors. The other thing I was trying to get a sense of, Scot, how long did you give it the 30 minutes of sweating a day before you felt that you were too sore and you can't keep it up? Was that a couple of weeks? How long did that happen?

Scot: Yeah, it was probably about three weeks.

Troy: And remind me again, what exactly were you doing? You said biking, maybe some running?

Scot: Yeah, mostly biking, running, and then kind of strength training. There were definitely some days when heavy yard work would have counted, things like that. But generally, it was sweating. And when I went running and when I went biking, it wasn't really like, "Okay, I'm going to sprint. I'm really going to work hard." It's like, "No, I just want to actually run. I don't want to do the slow foot shuffle."

Troy: So it sounds like intensity was pretty high, and it sounds like . . . Did you ramp up pretty quickly to 7 days a week, 210 minutes a week?

Scot: More or less immediately. I mean, that might have been part of the problem, but . . .

Troy: Yeah, that might have been a part of it.

Thunder: Yeah, I think so. I see where Troy is going with this, and I kind of agree with that. Maybe you started a little bit too fast. There is definitely a little bit of ramping up. Makes it easier to stick to things.

Scot: That might be a part of it. I have noticed throughout my life that recovery from exercise has generally taken longer than it seems to take my peers, which might come up again in part of my dietitian story.

Thunder: So just real quick, one of the things I see fairly commonly in the gym with my friends and other people who start working out is sometimes they'll start out pretty hard, have a bunch of exercises they're going to do, they do three sets, they don't think about their weights. They do that, and then the next day and maybe the next few days, they're crippled.

So there is something to be said for starting slow. And to be honest, if you're going to do a weightlifting routine, it may take you actually the full three weeks to start slow and build up to the point where you're doing three sets of something with the weight that you want to try.

Scot S: It might even be longer than that, Thunder. I mean, I've lifted weights before too. It's amazing how easy it is to get sore if you're not careful when you're first starting out. It could be a couple of months of just doing some easy weight training exercise with some light weights before you start ramping up. I know that makes a huge difference for me, because I've done that, what you said your friends have done in the past, and then it just comes to a screeching halt because I don't want to do it anymore.

Thunder: Yeah, exactly. And that's the downside, is jumping in too fast becomes a disincentive because now you're like, "Oh, I'm hurting all the time. I'm sore. I'm tired. This sucks."

So I guess bottom line is I would say don't give up on it, Scot. Try to incorporate some of that stuff in there. It's totally okay to kind of start easy and slow for a few weeks so you don't go through that disincentive of being too tired or too sore.

Scot: How much does that apply? Before we talked the first time, I was already running a 5k or an equivalent to a 5k two to three times a week. And then it was like, "Okay, I want to try and do six to seven times a week." It's not like I was a couch potato to 210 minutes a week.

Thunder: If you were adding weight training in there, maybe you run three days a week, and you do three days a week of weight training. But those three days you do the weight training has to be a very slow onboarding process, so to speak.

Maybe it should take you three, four weeks to get to the point where you're doing . . . If you have five exercises you want to do in the gym, and you're doing three sets of each, it'll maybe take you three weeks to get to the point where you're doing three sets of each, if that makes sense. And you keep your running, but just two, three times a week. Doing both every day will take more than 30 minutes and you'll definitely be sore.

Scot: Yeah.

Troy: And if you look at it, too, essentially you more than doubled what you were doing. So you said you were doing two to three times a week, and you went up to, it sounds like, seven days a week. So that's a big jump.

Scot S: Yeah, it is.

Troy: And maybe a 20% increase, and then you give it a month and see where you are, and another 20% increase. Again, the great news is you're better off now than you were then. You've lost some weight. You're exercising more. What's your minutes per week right now?

Scot: Probably around 100, 120 of solid sweating, not counting the leisurely bike rides, walking, mowing the lawn, stuff like that.

Thunder: Well, I think leisurely bike rides should count also because . . .

Troy: I do too, yeah.

Thunder: . . . you may not know you're sweating, Scot, because if the breeze is blowing on you, that sweat is evaporating, so you don't really know.

Scot: Well, sweet.

Thunder: Now, what are we up to? What are the minutes?

Scot: That easily adds another 60 minutes, easily.

Troy: Nice. I was going to say I love it. You've truly embraced the Matthew McConaughey Rule. You're going for the sweat. It may be 15 degrees out, but you're going for the sweat. So maybe the better rule is just getting your heart rate up. And sometimes that old Matthew McConaughey thing, he's like, "Yeah, I just break a sweat every day." But I'm sure he has personal trainers, and dieticians, and all that.

Thunder: Troy, it's a lot easier to do when you live in Texas.

Troy: Sure is. He just walks outside and he breaks a sweat. But yeah, I think maybe just looking more stuff to get your heart rate up. And a bike ride, that's going to get your heart rate up, pushing a lawnmower around, things like that. So I would definitely give yourself credit for that time you're investing as well. That's all definitely stuff that's . . . That's exercise, no doubt.

Thunder: You mentioned, Scot, you lost a few pounds, but you kind of seemed to downplay it, like maybe it's only about three pounds, or four pounds, or something. I think that does make a big difference, especially if that's weight that's come off of the abdominal area. If you're thinking about long-term chronic disease risk, that's what increases risk for people, is weight around the abdominal area. So think about that. And maybe three or four pounds has been a really positive change in that regard.

Scot: Yeah, every little bit counts. And I have noticed that my exercise shorts have more of a tendency to low-ride now versus in the beginning. So something has happened.

Troy: Something has changed.

Scot S: Yeah, I think sometimes we can get this twisted perception of what success and progress is. I know for a while on my Facebook feed, I had numerous people that were way overweight, like I'm talking 100 pounds or more overweight, and they're losing 5, 6 pounds a week. Everybody is talking about how great they look. And it was always really frustrating, because I'm a skinny fat guy, so I could lose five pounds, it could be pretty significant, but nobody had ever noticed. Nobody had ever celebrated. And that's just as much of a win for me as five or six pounds was for somebody else a week.

So I think sometimes we get a little bit of a skewed . . . the shows like "The Biggest Loser." You think you have to have these huge changes so fast. That's just not necessarily always the reality, and those little small ones should be celebrated.

And then you also went to a dietitian. What was the goal of going to a dietician, and how did that play out for you?

Scot: So that story is a little bit longer. But the goal of the dietitian was really to see how foods might be hindering me from reaching my optimal goals. If there's something that's fairly easy to cut out, let's do it.

And so I went to a dietitian. For what it's worth, I was able to get my insurance to cover it. All I needed was a note from my doctor that said, "Yes, the last time he was in here, his BMI was over 25." And that referral was enough. I don't know if that's valid for everyone, but it worked for me.

Thunder: That's a really great thing to bring up, because I think that's a message a lot of people need to hear. Sometimes people don't want to pay for that counseling out of their own pocket. So to have it covered with insurance is fantastic.

Scot: Yeah. Well, one of the things that made a lot of sense . . . So I met with the dietician three times, and the first time, they said,"It's interesting that people are willing to go to the dentist every year, but not to a dietitian." And that made a lot of sense to me as far as like, "Hey, check in." We usually go to the dentist, and all it is, is, "Yep, your teeth aren't falling out yet, and you still aren't flossing." The dietitian could be more or less the same thing.

So from first appointment, we sat there and kind of discussed what am I wanting out of this, a little bit of weight, a little bit of blood pressure. And so we talked about four different possibilities. Essentially, there might be some food that is mildly irritating to my body.

The four things that we discussed were cutting out gluten, cutting out dairy, cutting out eggs, and then adding a bunch of probiotics. And so I sat around for a couple days and thought, "Which one of those would be easiest to do?" And we decided to try gluten. So I did a two-week no gluten thing, and essentially nothing changed.

But while I was doing the gluten thing, I kind of realized, "You know what? Maybe there are more things that I need to talk about with the dietician because my digestive health could be a little bit better." So I went back said, "Hey, the gluten thing didn't work out. My digestion hasn't been great, so let's try the probiotics next," and we talked about it.

So I went out. I did a little bit of kefir with breakfast and dinner or dessert, and then some sauerkraut with lunch. Did that for two and a half weeks, and there was a little bit of difference with the digestive health, but generally nothing else seemed to change.

Troy: And help me out here, Scot, when you're talking digestive health, are you talking your stomach feeling unsettled, or are you talking just having regular bowel movements? What exactly were they going for there? I'm just curious what led to that.

Scot: Stool consistency was kind of what I was going for, or regularity.

Troy: So you were kind of feeling constipated, and they said, "Let's try something and see if this helps out," and trying probiotics, that sort of thing?

Scot: Yes, except I'm generally on the other end of the spectrum.

Troy: Oh, okay. So maybe a little too frequently?

Scot: Yeah.

Troy: Frequent visits? No shame in that. I'll readily admit I've had issues with that as well.

Scot: But like everything else, it isn't terrible. Everything that I have is perfectly livable. But I've realized, "Oh, let's talk about it. Maybe this is something else."

Troy: Good.

Scot: And so it's kind of the theme here, that there's some idea of, "Hey, go to the dietician." "Oh, I'd never thought about that." "Try the gluten." And while I'm doing the gluten, I realized, "Oh, wait, maybe I should be considering more than just weight and blood pressure. Maybe digestion too," and kind of opened up the scope of what I'm considering for "What are my measures of health? What is affecting my quality of life?"

Troy: That's an interesting approach, probably different than . . . when we mentioned the dietitian, I think we were thinking more some of those hidden sugars, things like that. But you were really going to them more targeting that, and just trying to feel better digestion-wise, where maybe your stomach didn't feel so unsettled, or you weren't having such frequent trips to the restroom, things like that.

Scot: Yeah, but that was the second thing. I tried the gluten first, which was supposed to be the blood pressure and whatever. But while it was doing the probiotics, I was sitting there thinking, again, about, "Huh, I wonder what is the power of dietitians and whatnot?"

And I had seen somewhere that sugars can affect mood. And so my scope creep opened up a little bit more of, "You know what? My mood could be better." I find that I tend to ruminate. Another thing with sugars can be associated with soreness after exercising. And so I'm like, "Okay, whatever. I'm going to try that."

Because of scheduling conflicts, I wasn't able to see the dietician right after the probiotics thing, so I decided just by myself, "You know what? I'm going to try and cut out everything sweet," including maple syrups. Essentially anything that is sweet and easy to cut out so I'd do it. So my pancakes were peanut butter and bananas, which is not as satiating as butter and syrup and everything.

But I found out that that has almost completely removed all of my rumination. If something negative happens to me, or I find some bad news or something, it doesn't ruin the rest of my day. I mean, it's still bad, I'm still sad, or whatever about it, but I'm able to be like, "Okay, that's great," and move on, which is a really surprising outcome from our original conversation. It might not be correlated. It might be because I've been exercising so much more or whatever, but currently, that is what I am experiencing, which is surprising.

Thunder: That is also an exercise effect, because regular exercise is known to be one of those things that helps people deal with stress and improve their mood. One thing I would ask, Scot, is how long have you been doing the low sugar/no sugar diet?

Scot: So I cut out the sugary cereals before we talked. I did the math, and low-balling it, I was probably consuming as much sugar as is in half a can of soda every morning just in cereal. So that probably had an effect. But the actual cessation of sugar was about a week and a half, close to two weeks ago, and I noticed the rumination benefits within a couple days of stopping.

Troy: Have you seen a tie in there, Thunder, with sugar and maybe some of the mental health benefits, or some of those things he's mentioning?

Thunder: I don't really know what exact ties are maybe in sugar consumption. Like everything else, it's probably related to the amount you're consuming. I mean, I'm not discounting what Scot is saying at all. Just right now on the spot, I'm having trouble kind of drawing a pathway in my mind to try to explain it, if that makes sense.

Scot: So I did talk with my dietician yesterday. That was my last appointment. I brought it up, and she more or less said, "That's great. I have read that high sugar has been associated with depression, and so maybe this is kind of the same thing. I don't know. But if you're seeing benefits, hey, that's great."

Thunder: High sugar is associated with so many negative things, but the key is how do you define high sugar? What level is high sugar? Scot, I'm not sure really how much sugar you had. I mean, it sounds like in breakfast, you would probably have about 20 grams of added sugar or more. Yeah, it's a fair amount. But I don't know in general, your diet, how high was it?

There are tons of studies that show if you feed high sugar, where you get to the point of 10% of your calories to 20% of your calories, that does have specific physiological problems that develop.

I'll give you just one example. If you give someone's calories, say, 10% to 20% of their calories in the form of sugar, their LDL levels go up. LDL is the bad form of cholesterol that's in your blood. And not only that, the type of LDL that's produced is the more atherogenic type. In other words, the type that's worse for heart disease. But that happens with 10% to 20% of your calories coming from sugar.

So taking it back to you, I don't know where you would fall into that scheme, because I haven't seen your diet. And I'm sure there are other connections as well with sugar. I'm just more familiar with the heart disease and obesity issues around it, and also the blood pressure issue. That's another thing. Sugar is known to increase blood pressure and increased risk of cardiovascular disease.

Scot: Yeah. I mean, this is all a great big experiment on myself. I know that I'm probably similar to most people, but I'm also unique in my own ways. And I still need to find out if all of this is just coincidence, or if it's actually correlated, because there are quite a few nights that I'll be laying in bed and tell my partner, "I really just want a cake."

Thunder: Join the club.

Troy: I hear you.

Scot: Not a piece of cake. I want the whole cake.

Troy: "I want a cake." I get it.

Scot S: All the cake.

Troy: Just bring it.

Thunder: Well, everything that's positive that's been happening, it's great. But I think all of us can't fall into the mistake of trying to put the finger on one thing. Because you know what? A lot of this comes back to basically healthy lifestyle. What's part of healthy lifestyle? Trying to get some exercise, trying to find a way of dealing with your stress, trying to eat healthier.

So we may not have to identify one specific dietary change, but the fact that you're changing multiple things and you're having a positive benefit, that's the important take-home message.

Scot: Yep. And that is similar to what the dietitian was saying, of every time we cut out something for a couple of weeks, we gain information. You gain the information of, "If I don't eat this, I see these benefits." And if at any point in time those benefits are worth cutting it out, go for it. That's kind of how I viewed everything, and will go forward under that of, "Let's see how much sugar I can eat while still maintaining these benefits."

Or maybe it's exercise-related. I don't know. But I'm certain when Christmas comes around, there will be plenty of sugars that I eat, and no exercising that will be done, and we'll find out.

Troy: Give yourself some credit. We know you can do it. You can resist and you can keep exercising. It's a challenge.

Scot S: I think, too, the other the other takeaway is you're doing a great job cutting out stuff, but I hear words like "all" or "as much as you can." Everything in moderation, right, Thunder? Every once in a while, you can have a little reward. It's just more of what choices are you making on a regular basis? Would you agree with that, Thunder?

Thunder: Yeah, I totally agree with that. It is really hard to be super militant all the time. And you don't want to fall into the trap of having a piece of cake and then just throwing your hands up in the air and saying, "It's over. Just give me the rest of the cake." It's okay to have stuff like that once in a while.

You have other levers you can operate, right? One of those is the exercise lever. So maybe if you have a little bit of a tougher time with some of your dietary approach, Scot, maybe you try to just ramp up a little bit more exercise for that week, or that day, or something. So I would use all the tools at my disposal as you move forward.

Scot: Definitely. I guess for some context, at least for the dietician that I went to . . . and we're talking about excluding things from the diet to gain information. It is important for two weeks to be very militant about, "You do not eat any gluten," to figure out is it actually bad. I have no intention of living this way for the rest of my life. But for the two-week experiment phase, that's kind of how it has to be.

Scot S: Thunder, what's your take? When I read that Scot went to a dietician and that they went down the route of gluten sensitivity and just different food sensitivity diagnosis, I kind of rolled my eyes a little bit. I feel like that happens a lot, but I don't know that . . . It seems like a little bit . . . I don't know. It's not witchcraft, but I'm like, "Really? That's the first thing, huh?" What's your take on that?

Thunder: It does happen a lot, it seems like. I guess it's one of those trendy things. Everybody wants to immediately talk about gluten.

So the reality is some people are definitely gluten-sensitive and it has a lot of big problems as it relates to their digestive health, and their body weight, and things like that. But you don't really know who is gluten-sensitive, so this is one of the approaches.

If you're faced with somebody who has some of those issues that could raise the flag of gluten sensitivity, then it's an easy thing to try. Go on your gluten-free diet for one or two weeks and see what happens. I think that's part of the reason why it's so popular.

But obviously, not everyone is gluten-sensitive. So in Scot's case, it didn't really make much of a difference one way or the other.

And there are other examples, though, of this in nutrition as well. Salt is another one. If someone has high blood pressure, one of the first knee jerk things that's done is you tell that patient, "Oh, just eat less salt. Reduce your sodium intake. Let's see if we can reduce your blood pressure." There are some people that do respond to that, but not everyone does. But people try it anyway just to see if it works. If it doesn't work, put it aside and move on to a different approach.

So that's my take on gluten sensitivity. I think it's in that paradigm.

Scot S: Mitch, you've been quiet. Do you want to jump in with anything?

Mitch: So the thing that I keep thinking about a lot when it comes to, say, even my own health . . . I've slipped up a little bit recently, but it's that idea of finding what works for you, right? And that's a big problem I think that happens when we talk men's health, and you see the magazines, and you look on Reddit, etc. Everyone swears they found the one way to lose weight, or the one way to drop your blood pressure, one way to lose whatever, when actually there are maybe 50 different ways that could maybe work for you.

And so it's very inspiring, Scot, to hear that in the six weeks you've made a lot of progress, but on top of that, you're trying things. You're taking an active role in your health, in getting yourself to that next level, rather than just, "Oh, I'm good enough."

So trying things out, and trying the elimination stuff, and just getting to know yourself better in your body, in your health, I think that's really the takeaway for me as someone by the sideline who's trying to also improve his own health.

Scot: My partner is very grateful to you, that you . . . "you" meaning the whole podcast family I guess . . . have been the kick in the pants I needed to actually try some of these things that she's been advocating for, of like, "Hey, we eat too much sugar. We should try decreasing that. We should do this." It has been a long time coming, and I guess this was the stimulus that I needed. And she really appreciates it.

Troy: And that's probably the biggest thing. It's not so much what you're doing, it's that you're doing it. Like Mitch said, you're trying stuff. The thing that makes me happiest to hear is you're better off than you were six weeks ago, and you're very comfortable with that. It sounds like what you're doing now is very sustainable and you're happy with it. And I think that's the greatest thing. So I think you've got something you're comfortable with, you're doing well, and you can just keep building on it.

Scot: I absolutely agree.

Scot S: Moving forward, Scot, what's your next plan of action? How are you going to continue this great progress that you've got so far?

Scot: I'm definitely planning on trying to continue to increase the activity level as far as strength training, as well as cardio type stuff, so head in that direction. Hopefully, I can get up to closer to 210 minutes a week. But I'm also going to cut myself some slack as far as leisurely bike rides and stuff like that. So that will make it a lot easier to get up there.

Other than that, I'm planning on playing with this sugar idea a little bit more. So maybe another half week or a week of being serious about it, and then slowly introducing it back to see if symptoms return.

If nothing happens with that, I am planning on trying a dairy cessation for two weeks, and an egg-cessation at some point. Not immediately. I'm kind of getting overwhelmed with all of that. But it would be interesting to see what happens.

I still want to get a personal trainer for a couple of sessions to help me with my gait or techniques when I do squats or something like that. I think that having that feedback would be very important. It just didn't happen over the last handful of weeks.

So that's kind of where I'm going. Kind of more of the same, more of this experimentation, and trying to get a professional to give me personalized feedback.

Scot S: Very cool. Troy, do you have any last thoughts?

Troy: Like I said before, I love what you're doing. Again, I think it's more that you're doing it, and you're trying stuff, and you're finding stuff that works. Just keep it up. I'll be excited to hear where you are in another six weeks.

Scot S: Thunder?

Thunder: Yeah, I agree with Troy. You're making the changes. You're trying different things. Keep it up. It'll take a little while before you land on something that exactly works for you consistently that you can live with, but this is all part of the journey. So, yeah, good for you.

Scot S: And I'm going to tell you, Scot, you actually inspired me. After we talked, that initial episode, I decided I needed to get back into the gym doing some weight training again. So as a result of our conversation, our interaction, and that whole deal, I've been fairly consistent, at least two times a week, which for me is pretty good, if not three times a week, of getting in and doing some strength training.

And it's taken about a month, six weeks, but now I'm starting to notice some benefits. I'm definitely noticing that I'm getting a little bit stronger, and clothes are fitting a little bit differently.

So I wanted to thank you for caring about your health to the extent that it made me care about mine again. Being in the gym was something I hadn't done for a while. And I actually kind of do like weight training in the gym, even though Troy doesn't. So thank you, Scot. I appreciate that.

Scot: You're very welcome. And thank you for being a positive impact on my life.

Scot S: Scot, it's been a pleasure. We look forward to checking in again. And if you have any questions, feel free to reach out anytime, all right?

Scot: Okay. Thank you.

Scot S: Oh, it was so awesome hearing from Listener Scot. He's making some progress. Things are going well. It just takes time. It takes some trial and error, figuring things out, especially finding a type of health that's going to work for you and work for your goals. It doesn't have to always be about being big and buff, and being able to do extreme stuff. So we'll check back in with Scot at a later date.

By the way, if you have any questions or if you'd like to talk to the "Who Cares About Men's Health" crew, a couple ways you can do that. You can email us, hello@thescoperadio.com. You can call and leave a voicemail at 601-55SCOPE. Or you can go to our Facebook page, facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth, and you can send a message there, or make a post on our wall.

Thank you for listening. And by the way, if there's somebody else you think might find this useful that could be inspired by Scot's story or any of the things we talk about to start their health journey, by all means, please share this with them. That's the best way to get this podcast out to as many men as possible.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for caring about men's health.

This week's recipe is Zesty Lentil Salad. If you make it, tell us how it was and post your pictures on our Facebook page.

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Scot: Tasty and easy-to-make man meals you can eat all week. Today, it's a very manly review of last week's recipes, stuffed spaghetti squash and the other optional recipe, the no-bake chewy granola bars. Then we'll also have a recipe for next week as well.

And by the way, hit the kitchen with us and share your story and photos at facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. These recipes are there. You can find links to them. Get in the kitchen, see what you think, see if you like them, see what we can do to improve them. That would be awesome.

I'm Scot Singpiel from thescoperadio.com. I'm learning I enjoy making food, so that's cool. Here's today's crew. We've got co-host, Dr. Troy Madsen. He's the MD to my BS.

Troy: That's right.

Scot: And the guy my wife told me that he should talk more on the podcast, it's Producer Mitch in the mix.

Mitch: I'm here.

Troy: Just keep talking, Mitch. Just keep talking.

Mitch: All right.

Scot: And both of our guests today are from the Department of Nutrition and Integrative Physiology at University of Utah's College of Health. We've got kitchen daredevil Thunder Jalili.

Thunder: Hi, everyone.

Scot: And the person who has the hardest job on the show teaching the rest of us how to cook, it's registered dietician and culinary coach Theresa D.

Theresa: Hello, hello.

Scot: You have just a cool last name. Now, it's just an initial. It's not even your whole name. That's how you know you've made it.

Theresa: I just read an article too about cooking therapists, and I think I should be a cooking therapist. I think that would work with this group.

Troy: Does this mean you are therapy for those who do not know how to cook, or use cooking to provide therapy for other things?

Theresa: I think it could go both ways, but mostly anxiety in the kitchen.

Troy: Oh, sign me up. Since you brought that up, Theresa.

Theresa: I'll call you later.

Troy: I hope you don't mind me starting this out with an analogy. My wife once invited me to a Zumba class, and I went to the Zumba class.

Thunder: I can just picture it now.

Troy: I had never been to a Zumba class before. We were on the back row, but there was a mirror on the front so people could see other people. At the end of the class when it was over, my wife asked me, "Were you making fun of the class, or were you actually trying?"

And I will say that is how I felt last week talking about my experience in the kitchen. Everyone here knows what they're doing. I am clueless. And that's how I felt in the Zumba class. I did not go back to Zumba after that. I have come back here.

Theresa: Yes.

Troy: So I'm still with you.

Theresa: Win.

Troy: I came for my second Zumba class. I'm still here.

Scot: All right. I think you're going to find though, Troy, the more you do this, the better it's going to feel. I think you are.

Troy: I will say that's the case already. Yeah.

Thunder: It couldn't get worse.

Troy: It could not get worse. You're right. Technically, it could. This whole parchment paper thing, as I'm putting this in the oven, I'm like, "Is this going to catch on fire? Is this going to be the next episode about my oven fire?" It could get worse, but it didn't.

Theresa: That's great.

Scot: Thunder is always there for some support.

Troy: Exactly.

Scot: Back-handed support in a way.

Thunder: I'm here for you.

Troy: Thanks, man.

Scot: All right. So let's go ahead and we'll start with a review of the stuffed spaghetti squash. We'll go ahead and start with Mitch. Any thoughts on that? Did you like it?

Mitch: I did. And I think the thing that I was the most surprised about was just how much food it actually made. The spaghetti squash looks small, but when you start to scoop things up and fill it up, I think we ended up getting almost six meals out of the recipe.

Scot: Wow. It's cool too because the spaghetti squash, you can scrape that thing to the shell. You can use every little bit in there. That's pretty awesome.

Troy, how'd it go for you?

Troy: It was great. I am now a fan of spaghetti squash. And this, again, pushed me a little bit. I had to find someone in the store and ask them, "What is a spaghetti squash?"

Theresa: Yes. I love it.

Troy: I did. I had to.

Thunder: Is it in the pasta section?

Troy: "Is it next to the pasta?" So this nice lady in the store then, who works there, of course, she had a couple of smaller ones. She's like, "Oh, let me go get you a good one." So she went to the back room and brought a nice big spaghetti squash out for me. And it's cool. This is cool. It's fun to eat.

Scot: Wow. Special treatment there. I like that.

Troy: Yeah.

Theresa: Troy, did you find the olive bar?

Troy: I did. Our olive bar, though, it's still not an open olive bar. They have an olive bar with everything packaged so they don't have it all exposed, but I did find the olive bar.

I'll tell you the way this happened if you're interested. I went to the store for something else and then I said to myself, "I am really overthinking this cooking stuff. Why am I doing this?" And so I tried to pull up the recipe on my phone and I couldn't get a connection in the store, and I'm like, "I remember what to get." I remember Thunder talking about the olive bar. So I went there. I found olives. They did not have sun-dried tomatoes, but I remembered that. I found that. I remembered the spaghetti squash, so I'm like, "Hey, I can do this."

And so I found most of the stuff. Just remembered what we talked about. I tried not to overthink it and got everything together, and it was much less stressful. It was like, "I can do this." I got the nice spaghetti squash. It was not the cheap stuff. It was in a glass bottle, and so . . .

Scot: The spaghetti squash was in a glass bottle?

Theresa: The sauce.

Troy: I wish the spaghetti squash was in a glass bottle. I just gave it away. No, the spaghetti sauce was in a glass bottle.

Scot: Got it. Sorry.

Troy: Yeah. I think in multiple levels I was just like, "I'm just going to do this. I'm overthinking it." And overall, it was a good experience in that sense. Just not stressing about it, just like, "Hey, I can do this. I remember what I need. I can make this happen." And found the stuff and it all worked out.

Theresa: That's great.

Scot: Hey, Theresa, you teach a lot of cooking classes to people probably at all levels. I think what Troy is discovering is it's really hard to screw things up in the kitchen.

Theresa: Yeah. We can try and take a step back, and a lot of this is this analysis paralysis. We're trying to overthink it. We're trying to be that Food Network chef, that Instagram influencer, or what have you. And we really just need to . . . especially when we're starting out, you need to take that step back and remember those basics.

And if we think about some of the basics that these recipes have introduced us to, sautéeing, chopping things, roasting, buying pre-prepared and then adding a bunch of fresh stuff to it, it can be a lot easier than what we're holding ourselves to these unrealistic expectations.

Scot: Yeah. And even if it doesn't turn out, it's still good. I had a little botch story I'll tell here today, but it still turned out good.

Theresa: That's right. And at least you know that, "Most of the time, well, I know that it may not be amazing, it may not be a Michelin restaurant caliber, but all of the ingredients are good. I followed food safety. It's cooked through. I don't have raw beef in here or something of the sort, and it's probably going to taste better the next time I make it." So learning experience.

Scot: The spaghetti squash. So I've got just a few questions here, and then if anybody else has any questions or comments that they want to dive a little more deeply into.

Theresa, these are just rapid fire. Okay? So how does spaghetti squash freeze? It seems like it's really full of a lot of water. Is it going to not be good if I freeze this?

Theresa: No. Don't freeze it. Awful.

Scot: Okay. So this is one of those ones you've got to . . .

Theresa: Yeah.

Scot: Okay.

Theresa: Do it fresh. You can save the squash. You could save it and not prepare it until earlier or think about your different steps, but don't make this dish and then put it in the freezer.

Scot: Okay. And when a recipe says two cups of spinach, chopped, does that mean I take two cups of pre-chopped spinach and then chop that, or am I supposed to chop up the spinach until I get two chopped cups?

Theresa: I love this. This is so what I was going to talk about during this episode. In the recipe that we're going to make, it has some of this recipe jargon that is helpful to know. It's not the end of the world. Again, it's still going to taste really good if you mix it up, but it makes a little bit of a difference in the taste and quality.

So, for example, the recipe today will call for "one cup parsley, chopped," or if the recipe were to say one cup chopped parsley. So it's a matter of when you measure it. If it says "one cup of parsley, chopped," then you start with one cup of loose leaves and chop that up. But if it's saying one cup of chopped parsley, then you want to chop until you fill up a cup.

Scot: Got it.

Theresa: A full cup of parsley.

Mitch: When do you learn that in your life? Is it just right now or is it . . .

Theresa: Right now is when you learn it, Mitch.

Mitch: Because I've cooked for a long time in my life and I'm just like, "Wait, what?"

Theresa: It's just like algebra. What do you do first?

Troy: It's the order it's in.

Theresa: Is it parentheses? Is it addition or multiplication? That's all. There you go.

Scot: All right. Yes. So, in the squash recipe, it's "two cups baby spinach, chopped." So I take two cups of whole leaves and then chop those up.

Theresa: Correct.

Scot: All right. Yeah. We're rocking and rolling.

Theresa: You would just have a little extra spinach. It probably wouldn't equate to all that much extra, but in some things like parsley or herbs that really chop down fine, it would make a strong difference.

Scot: Yeah, it would make a flavor difference. With spinach, it's just kind of . . . It was a really tasty recipe. I got a ton of leftovers. I looked up how many calories and carbs spaghetti squash has. Literally none. I think one cup is nine grams of carbohydrate and one and one-half of that is fiber. The beans in there have more carbohydrates than the spaghetti squash.

So it was really, really filling and really, really good. I ate it cold today from my leftover and it was great cold.

Theresa: I was just going to ask how did you guys think about repurposing it? Or did you just eat it as was for leftovers?

Troy: I ate it for leftovers. I heated it up in the microwave last night. And it's funny, I just left the whole . . . I didn't scrape it all out. I just left the quarter spaghetti squash there. So I've got a couple of those in the fridge. But I heated it up. The outside of the spaghetti squash really heated up. When I touched it, it was really hot, and the inside of it wasn't super warm, but it was still good though. I enjoyed it.

I will ask something that Mitch wanted me to ask but was too embarrassed to ask. Does spaghetti squash give you gas?

Mitch: It's a legitimate question.

Troy: This was on our group text. Mitch brought it up, if anyone else might have experienced a little bit of upset.

Theresa: I would say no, but it's always possible because there's lots of . . . Do you have issues with other carbohydrates?

Mitch: Not typically. No.

Theresa: Okay.

Thunder: Maybe it was just a bigger fiber load than you're used to eating at one time, Mitch.

Mitch: That could have been it. Sure.

Scot: Because those beans . . . the spaghetti squash has fiber, but those beans also have a lot of fiber in them.

Thunder: Yes, they do.

Theresa: It's true.

Troy: I'll admit too . . . I kind of put Mitch on the spot, but I did feel a little bit of stomach unsettling maybe two or three hours afterwards as well. So I wondered if maybe there's just a lot of fiber content in there, but it sounds like there probably is.

Theresa: That would be my guess, is the fiber piece. If you think about . . . the sun-dried tomatoes are really condensed from a fresh tomato.

Troy: That's probably what did it.

Theresa: The olives, similar thing. The beans, the spaghetti squash, certainly. The greens, depending on how much spinach you put in. It's certainly high on the fiber content from your typical roller food.

Troy: Higher than the taquitos.

Theresa: I have to. Every week, I've got to bring it in, Mitch.

Mitch: That's fine.

Troy: That makes sense.

Mitch: So it's not like anything is wrong. It's just fiber is good for you.

Theresa: Yep. And as you get used to higher fiber content in your meals, that should decrease.

Mitch: Okay.

Theresa: You're training your gut.

Mitch: I guess one of the things that I was wondering was . . . it seemed like I had a bit of sticker shock as I was scanning one jar after another. It just seemed like it was a bit pricier than I was used to.

Theresa: Very valid. And this is where looking at where and how we buy our items and then reusing them . . . So this is sometimes challenging when we're trying a recipe for the first time and we don't know if we're going to like it. So if you're buying jars of these items, it's quite possible that you had some left in that jar. You didn't use the entire jar.

And this is where maybe some of those grocery stores that have an olive bar where you can just purchase the amount that you need for the recipe . . . So if you only needed a half a cup, that's all you have to buy instead of needing to buy the one to two cups' worth that's in the jar.

Look at other store options as well. Trader Joe's does some of these items less expensive. Those kinds of things are a great way to look at some of these alternatives.

So certainly, it's a valid question, valid concern with this particular recipe. I would also argue, though, at the same time when you think about the quantity that it made . . . It gave Troy six meals' worth for one or two. That's a significant amount of food that it made. So pricing it out per meal, hopefully, would be considerably less. Yes, the initial purchase can sometimes be a bit of a shock.

Troy: And I will say I priced mine out, because I'm curious about this too. I priced mine at about $20 for everything. And admittedly, I did forget to get the artichoke hearts. I would have liked to have had those and I didn't remember until I got home. I was like, "Ugh, artichoke hearts." So that probably would have added on another $5.

But you're right. I think if you look at $20 and you spread it over four or five meals, it's not crazy high. But it seems like there are variations you could do on that. Maybe you don't do the sun-dried tomatoes and maybe you just do the olives or something. Because I found . . .

Thunder: Oh, sun-dried tomatoes are the best part.

Troy: Okay.

Theresa: Or if you didn't like the olives . . .

Troy: You're right. They are the best part. Maybe you don't do the olives.

Theresa: Or doing canned olives. You could do canned olives. Artichokes, there are frozen artichokes and those are fantastic as well.

Troy is exactly right. You could certainly modify this and make it a little bit less expensive of an initial punch.

Troy: You're right, Thunder. That was my mistake. I would not remove the sun-dried tomatoes. Those were amazing. So maybe the olives . . .

Thunder: I'm glad you're a convert to the tomatoes now.

Troy: Yeah. Big fan.

Scot: All right. Let's move on to the granola bars. The official title . . . what was this?

Theresa: No-bake chewy granola bars.

Scot: All right. Yeah. How did that go for you guys? Let's start with Troy.

Troy: I did not make it to recipe number two, unfortunately.

Scot: I've got to tell you, it was pretty easy. So if you want to try it at some point, it doesn't take that long and it was pretty simple.

Troy: I would like to, yeah.

Scot: How about you, Thunder? Did you do the granola bars?

Thunder: Yeah. So, actually, like the good parent I am, I delegated and had my daughter do it.

Troy: Nice.

Scot: That's not the point. The point is us make them.

Thunder: Well, I was in the kitchen at the time in a supervisory capacity.

Theresa: And what were you drinking, Thunder?

Troy: Love it.

Thunder: We had one modification. We didn't do the brown sugar. I think it actually turned out really, really good. And we used a special kind of chocolate chip that my wife found that I guess are some sort of baking chocolate chip, but that ended up being one of the good parts of the recipe.

So bottom line is I think it was a bit more crumbly because we didn't add the brown sugar, but I thought they tasted great. And as long as we ate them chilled, they were fantastic.

Scot: I've got to say Mitch's picture of his look like it was straight out of a food magazine compared to how mine turned out. Mitch, talk to us about the granola bars.

Mitch: I find these suspiciously delicious. The question I have, because I don't have it readily available . . . We ended up swapping . . . we did some Kashi Go rather than puffed rice to make it a little more protein-rich. What is the caloric density of these things? I've had to run up to the hospital a time or two. I've been grabbing them just as a quick lunch.

Thunder: It's high.

Mitch: They are so tasty, though. I'm just concerned. I'm very concerned.

Theresa: And especially with putting in the Kashi Go, it's certainly upped it from what it was. So if you just made one batch and cut it into the, I believe, nine servings that it was allotted for, which would be a fairly good size bar, they're about 300 calories.

Mitch: Okay. That's like a meal replacement.

Theresa: So then with the Kashi Go, I'd probably add another . . . probably if you did that fully instead of the puffed rice, it's probably another 25 to 50 calories. So it's a very dense snack, yes.

Thunder: Mitch, did you cut them into . . . did you actually make nine bars or did you cut them into smaller bars?

Mitch: I cut them into nine, and I just . . .

Theresa: Portion control on this one.

Thunder: So you didn't have just one big bar.

Mitch: So one of the things I think I run into a lot with my own nutrition is I get into that health food blindness where I'm like, "These are healthy. Theresa told me I could eat as many carbs as I wanted." And then I have two of these and then it's like, "Oh, no."

Scot: I don't think she said you could eat as many carbs as you wanted. I think she said you could eat the rice, but I don't believe she . . .

Mitch: Yes. All right.

Thunder: Well, one thing to think about is we actually made them into smaller pieces when we did them. They're like bite-sized pieces, so maybe about an inch or inch and a half or something.

Theresa: And also, if you're thinking about having it as a snack, but realizing that you're eating a lot of them, certainly think about how many you portion and take with you. Another thing to think about is that I have something else alongside it. So maybe I have a low-fat plain yogurt.

Thunder: Like an exercise bike?

Theresa: An exercise bike. Hopefully, you're walking around work. Or an apple. Something fresh along with it.

Mitch: I have been having an apple with a full-size bar, so I need to re-evaluate my life. Okay. Cool.

Scot: Well, I don't know if . . .

Mitch: Good to know.

Thunder: Nothing wrong with a full-size bar in the right circumstance. But I think if you're just popping them as a snack, it's probably a bit much as a snack. So maybe half a bar, a third of a bar, or something.

Mitch: Okay.

Scot: I'm treating it as a dessert, really. Just a little something afterwards. And mine didn't come out in bar form. I think where I made the mistake was I put the liquid part in the microwave. It came out bubbly and hot. And then I think I waited a little too long and it hardened up, so it didn't mix very well. So I need to work on my kitchen technique, but they were good. This is one of those cases, Troy, where it didn't come out like . . . it wouldn't be something I'd want to take to a party because they look terrible, but they taste great.

Troy: They tasted good.

Scot: So even though it was a little bit of a failure, it was not a failure because they are absolutely delicious. And I could even see maybe taking these and putting these in the bottom of a bowl, just a few of the crumbles, because mine really crumbled up, and put a little ice cream on top of them. That would be a good little dessert.

Theresa: I was thinking yogurt, but yeah, ice cream works too.

Scot: Yogurt is even better because then you get the protein in the yogurt and the fat in yogurt to help slow down the sweetness in the granola bars. That's brilliant.

All right. On to next week's recipe. It looks really, really good. It looks light and summery. I can't wait to learn more about it. Theresa, what are we making next week?

Theresa: Zesty lentil salad.

Scot: What do you think, guys? Zesty lentil salad.

Troy: I'm already intrigued.

Thunder: It sounds great.

Troy: I like all three of those words.

Theresa: Nothing from Mitch.

Mitch: You like lentils?

Theresa: Mitch, hold on to me. Hold on, Mitch.

Mitch: I'm here.

Theresa: Because it's a salad. However, I don't want you to cringe too much because it's not a salad in the sense that lettuce and iceberg is your base.

Mitch: Yeah. Okay.

Theresa: So hold with me. It's a warm salad. And I use salad a bit loosely because we're essentially just mixing things together like you would, say, a fruit salad. Well, there's no lettuce in there, but we still call it a salad. So we're mixing things together in a giant bowl.

So we had talked I believe the first week about wants or goals or desires of this class and something of this conversation was talking about lentils. And so here is an awesome lentil recipe for you guys to try. And talk about having leftovers. This one is going to give you leftovers. So this is going to be a great combination of lentils and bulgur and some nice fresh veggies as well as a homemade dressing that you'll put on the top.

Troy: So you just said a word there I've never heard before. What was that?

Thunder: Bulgur?

Scot: Bulgur.

Theresa: Bulgur?

Scot: Yeah. It sounds like somebody that was in "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe."

Troy: Exactly. Who's Bulgur and where do I find him?

Scot: Bulgur. Bulgur smash.

Troy: Exactly. What is that? I have no idea.

Theresa: So it's wheat. It comes from wheat.

Troy: Okay.

Theresa: And it is considered a whole grain, less processed than if you were to, say, have wheat pasta, or wheat bread, or something of that sort. But you can find quick-cooking bulgur and it'll cook up in about 10 minutes. It's a two-to-one ratio similar to rice, two cups of water to one cup of bulgur. And it's a really great addition to your grain repertoire. A lot of people think about quinoa or rice or couscous. I put pull bulgur in there as well. It has a nice nutty, roast-y flavor to it without adding a whole lot.

Troy: Where does one find bulgur?

Theresa: You'll find it with the other grains. So Bob's Red Mill makes a really great one. So if you're in either the baking aisle or in sometimes the Italian pasta aisle where maybe they have cornmeal or polenta or packaged quinoa, things of that sort, it should be there. It can sometimes be in the cereals, though, too.

Thunder: I was going to mention, don't give Troy any hints. It'd be more entertaining to watch him try to find it.

Troy: I know. I have learned my lesson.

Thunder: All the places you mentioned I don't think he could find anyway.

Troy: Yeah. Well, number one . . .

Theresa: This could be one that you find that produce lady and say, "Hey . . ."

Troy: Yeah, I need to find that nice lady again.

Theresa: Or look at your store app. If you're at a store that does have an app function, this would be a great thing because you can put in bulgur and it'll tell you exactly where in the grocery store it's located.

Troy: Intrigued.

Scot: I bought the ingredients for this while I was buying the ingredients for the spaghetti squash thing and I had a hard time finding the bulgur. One store I went to, I couldn't find it anywhere. The other store, I found it in their . . . not the health food aisle, but the natural foods aisle is where I ended up finding it.

Troy, like Theresa said, look for the Bob's Mill brand and you're going to look around quinoa and that sort of thing. So it could be in two or three different places just depending on your grocery store.

Troy: Sounds like an adventure. We'll see.

Scot: Yeah.

Troy: We'll see how this . . . Are there any alternatives? Let me ask you that first. Are there any alternatives to bulgur? Rice?

Theresa: Sure. You could do rice. I would more so suggest something like quinoa or couscous.

Troy: Okay.

Thunder: I was thinking couscous would be a good alternative.

Theresa: Or if you really want to go out, millet would be a . . . But that'd be probably just as hard for you to find as bulgur.

Troy: So get wheat and . . .

Scot: No, you're not milling anything, Troy. Millet is a thing you buy. You're not going to go down to the creek where the mill is with the big mill wheel.

Troy: I swear you said, "Mill it." But now I understand what you said. I get it. I thought you were just seeing how far I was going to go with this, but I get it.

Scot: So is this going to be a main course then, or is this a side, or what's your recommendation on that, Theresa?

Theresa: It's both. You'll see on the recipe I have that it makes 6 main courses or entrees and 10 sides. So this is a really great one that you can really multipurpose. So it's great the first night that you make it. Maybe eat it warm if that works with your timing, because it's really yummy warm. But then for lunch the next day, it's awesome cold as well, or putting it into a pita and having more of a sandwich-type or a wrap or something like that would be really great too.

Scot: And if you're using it as a side, what would be a good type of food to eat with this then?

Theresa: Oh, I would do grilled chicken. I could do some sockeye salmon. It's summertime, so throw something out on the grill. That would be really awesome with it for sure. Thunder's sautéed tofu would be a good topper. It's nice and zesty and kind of Mediterranean, Eastern, Middle Eastern, and so you could think about any of those poultries. A lighter poultry or fish would be really great.

Scot: Let's go around the room here. Troy, let's start with you because you have the most questions normally, so maybe we'll get everybody else's questions. Do you have any questions? Any concerns? You got the recipe there?

Troy: I think I'm ready to try it.

Scot: Do you know what an English cucumber is?

Troy: I will probably find an American cucumber, but . . .

Scot: Do you know how to tell the difference between English cucumbers and American cucumbers?

Thunder: Is it the accent?

Scot: Well, yeah. You go, "Hello, governor," and if it goes, "Hello, how are you?"

Troy: Yes. That will be me talking to the cucumbers.

Scot: "Mighty cheeky today, aren't you, Dr. Madsen?" Then it's an English cucumber.

Troy: If it's wearing a top hat, I'll purchase it. What am I supposed to look for?

Theresa: If it's wrapped in plastic, long and wrapped in plastic, it's an English cucumber most of the time.

Troy: Okay.

Scot: All right.

Theresa: They tend to have fewer seeds, they have a lower water content, and so they work really well for something like this. If you were using a traditional cucumber, say, that you were harvesting out of your garden maybe, or your typical American cucumber from the grocery store, they tend to be really waxy. So I would suggest peeling it as well as scraping out a lot of the seeds in the middle, or it's going to make the salad really watery. Find that produce lady.

Troy: I will find the lady. I've got to find her.

Theresa. Or gentleman. There are plenty of good produce men as well.

Troy: I'm sure there are.

Thunder: So my question about this recipe . . . when I was looking at it, it looks like it's going to create a massive volume of food, and I'm pretty sure I can't freeze it. Would it be okay to cut everything in half, and could I still mix everything?

Theresa: Yes, certainly. This one fairly easily could go in half, yes.

Thunder: Okay. Good.

Scot: Mitch?

Mitch: We'll see. I have suspicions also about lentils, but we'll see how this comes together. Troy, the thing that I've been doing lately is that I've just been doing the pickup, the grocery pickup. So I don't even need to hunt in the store to find things.

Theresa: Nice.

Troy: Oh, you just put everything on there and someone finds it for you.

Thunder: That's like cheating.

Troy: It is cheating.

Mitch: Yes, her name is Mary. It's been every Wednesday for the last month. I know her. We chitchat. It's great. So she's like, "Oh, getting something different this week." And I'm like, "Yes, I am." So I will . . .

Theresa: You should share the recipes with her.

Mitch: I might have to, but that's just it. So that's how I've been skipping the "Where on earth is this item in the store?" So that's my tip.

Troy: That's a really good strategy. I didn't even think about that. That's actually a good idea. I may do that. I think I can find most of the stuff.

Thunder: Troy, it's part of the adventure.

Troy: I know. It is part of the adventure. I have to say it is, and I have found some new things I hadn't really found before. So this looks pretty straightforward though. The bulgur, that really threw me off, but everything else on here . . . The English cucumber, now that you've described it, I think I can find that. Everything else looks pretty straightforward.

Scot: All right. Can't wait to try zesty lentil salad. We'll talk about it next week along with another brand new recipe from Theresa. And we would love it if you'd join us in the kitchen. Try these recipes out. You can find them at facebook.com/whocaresmenshealth. We're posting the recipes there. You can post your comments and pictures there. We'd love to have you just be a part of this and let us know what you think in the kitchen along with us with "Who Cares About Men's Health."

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot: Do you have some sort of a tagline when you leave, like "Be skin healthy"? Anything like that?

Troy: Leave and just say, "I'm the balm."

Dr. Johnson: I don't, but maybe I should come up with one.

Scot: Yeah. Like a toast, like, "Here's to your skin."

Troy: "Here's to your skin."

Dr. Johnson: I hope that was skinteresting.

Troy: Skinteresting. Oh, I love it. That's it right there.

Scot: The podcast is called "Who Cares about Men's Health," giving you information and inspiration to better understand and engage in your health so you feel better today and in the future.

My name is Scot Singpiel. I am the manager of thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Dr. Johnson: I am Dr. Luke Johnson. I'm a dermatologist at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Mitch: And I'm Mitch and I care about men's health.

Scot: All right. Today, we're back with dermatologist Dr. Johnson, because we wanted to talk about acne. I've heard a statement that if somebody has acne that there's no reason that they should suffer with that, and we're going to find that out today. So if you have acne, if somebody in your life has acne, maybe your son or your daughter . . . I think I said Acme, which of course is the Road Runner coyote thing. It's Acme.

Troy: Acme with an M. Acme.

Scot: What can be done and is that statement that no one should have to live with acne true? So, first, we want to hit with Mitch's story, because Mitch has had a battle throughout his life with acne. So tell us about your battle and how it impacted you and your health.

Mitch: Yeah. So, during high school, I had really bad acne as I went into like junior or senior year, and it was scarring acne. So every time that I'd have a really bad set of breakouts, all of a sudden I would have these little scabs, I'd have these little marks, and over time I was getting pockmarks all over my face.

And you don't see them these days, but that's because I went through a whole lot of work with the dermatologist. We tried everything from topical creams to everything we possibly could for a year or two before they decided to finally put me on Accutane, which I don't know if that's standard protocol anymore, the isotretinoin. But I was on that for about a year and a half just to try to get the acne to stop so my skin would stop scarring.

I was on that for about a year. It was a pretty miserable process. You're dry all the time. It's like your lips are falling off. And so, my first year of college, I was a bit of a pizza face or whatever. I had really, really bad acne.

And by the time it was all said and done, I was left with some scars and it really impacted my self-esteem, really made me kind of nervous to kind of talk to people. And so I had to go through a whole bunch of treatments. We ended up doing peels and even some sort of beetle poison that they put on my face to try to remove one thing or another.

And after all of that work, after years and years of working to fight against the acne and then eventually to minimize the scars, I now have the clear "broadcast-ready skin" that my dermatologist wanted me to get when I was originally going to go into television.

Scot: That's a great story. So it impacted your mental health because it undermined your self-confidence.

Mitch: Oh, most definitely. I was nervous. Even during treatment, I would not want to go to parties and stuff because my face was covered in scabs. I had all these little scars. I looked a little older than I wanted. Yeah, I didn't feel good about it.

Scot: Dr. Johnson, is Mitch's story common? Uncommon? Where would you categorize Mitch's journey?

Dr. Johnson: I would say it's fairly common, and I'm glad it has a happy ending. I think our current acne medicines that we have available are pretty good and we can give most people a happy ending.

Scot: And the amount of time that it took him to go through this process, is that pretty common or are things a little bit better now?

Dr. Johnson: Well, our treatments are actually fairly similar to when Mitch was going through this, but I would say that usually we can get people better a lot faster than that.

Troy: I was going to say it sounds like . . . I mean, for Mitch, it sounds like things were pretty advanced, Mitch, when you got to a point when you saw the dermatologist. At what point, Mitch, in that process did you see a dermatologist? Then, Dr. Johnson, is this something where if he maybe had an opportunity to see someone like you earlier, could it have prevented a lot of the peels and the interventions he needed down the road?

Mitch: Well, at the time, I went to a dermatologist relatively early when we started seeing the scarring and the over the counter stuff was not quite cutting it. And at the time, the dermatologist said that they would not escalate to Accutane until other things were tried and necessary.

I don't know if that was an insurance thing, I don't know if that was a best practice thing, but we had to try some other treatments for a month or two at a time before we went nuclear, essentially, with the Accutane.

Dr. Johnson: Well, I think probably that dermatologists are a lot more comfortable with Accutane now. There's been a lot of research that's come out showing that it's a pretty safe drug. And also there's been a lot more interest in the last 10 or 20 years in what we call antibiotic stewardship, which means limiting the number of antibiotics we prescribe to people in general in order to reduce the resistant bacteria that exists in the world.

So I have a pretty low threshold to go ahead and start Accutane on people these days.

Mitch: I got my treatment back in 2008/2009, so the last 10 years. I mean, it was a controlled substance. I had to get tested, I had to do a psych evals, everything, every month or two that they would give me my refills.

Dr. Johnson: We're getting a little farther afield here with the Accutane discussion, but what I would like to say about Accutane is that it's a great medicine. I also took it. And it sounds like you had a fairly significant reaction to it since you described yourself as being fairly miserable for a year or a year and a half on it, but that's an extreme reaction. I would say most people definitely get dry, but they don't find it too bad. And then six to seven months later, their acne is better. So it's a great medicine, it's pretty safe, it works well, and dermatologists use it plenty.

Scot: This is a part of the show where Scot goes, "But, Doctor, if Mitch would have just changed his diet, that would have taken care of the problem, right?"

Dr. Johnson: Oh, yeah. You were probably getting too many vegetables.

Troy: Yeah, chocolate. Mitch, were you eating just tons of chocolate? What's your deal?

Mitch: Oh, I did. That's all I ate. Then I'd smear it on my face.

Troy: Take Hershey bars and smear it around . . . you probably never bathed either.

Mitch: Nope.

Dr. Johnson: These are myths, so thanks for bringing them up. There has been a fair amount of research into diet and acne. And lately, there's actually been a couple positive spikes where it looks like if you drink skim milk, not other types of milk, but skim milk specifically, or your diet has what we call a high-glycemic load, which means it's got a lot of simple sugars in it, it might make your acne a little bit worse. So instead of having five pimples a month, you might have six pimples a month or something, but it doesn't make a big deal.

And also cleaning and hygiene doesn't seem to have a lot to do with it either. However, there are particular medicated cleansers that people can use that can really help out their acne.

Troy: I was going to say there's a certain brand that you see advertised all the time on TV. Does that make a difference? Is that something that people should be trying?

Dr. Johnson: So here's one of the heartbreaking things that I see in my practice. Somebody has significant acne and they have spent hundreds of dollars on over-the-counter products to try to make it better.

Scot: Advertised by celebrities, right? Is that what we're talking about?

Dr. Johnson: Many of them.

Troy: Perhaps Kristen Bell.

Mitch: That's what I used.

Dr. Johnson: I won't name any names, but she's awesome in "The Good Place."

Troy: She's awesome in "The Good Place."

Dr. Johnson: So people spend a bunch of money on products that maybe help a little bit, but if they had just come to a dermatologist's clinic, we could get them better a lot faster and a lot better and a lot cheaper.

So there are over-the-counter products that are pretty good for acne, and some of these expensive, fancy products that you see advertised contain some of those ingredients, so that part is good, but you can get them a lot cheaper in sort of generic forms.

My favorite over-the-counter acne treatment is called benzoyl peroxide. It's not hydrogen peroxide. It's benzoyl peroxide. It comes in a lot of different forms. It comes as washes, it comes as creams, it comes as spot treatment pads. I like it best as a cleanser or a wash because I figure most people who care about acne are going to be washing their face anyway, so you might as well put some medicine in there to avoid having something else to do.

This will bleach towels, however, so all of my towels are white or bleached.

Scot: The red ones are now pink.

Dr. Johnson: Yeah. My wife says I owe her a set of teal towels sometime when I stop using this medicine, but I don't think I'm ever going to stop using it.

Troy: And that's interesting that you point that out. This isn't just about maybe someone in their teens or early 20s when a lot of us have dealt with acne, but you're talking as an adult, maybe into your 30s, 40s, this is still stuff that people are using and you're recommending.

Dr. Johnson: I'm 16.

Troy: Oh, I'm sorry. My mistake.

Scot: Were you born on a leap year? What's going on?

Dr. Johnson: I just turned 40. Still get some acne.

Troy: We talked about this in the previous episode, but I think a lot of us are dealing with acne outbreaks right now just for mask use, the whole maskne thing where you have that moisture there and that seems to be leading to some more acne. Is that something you're seeing more of as well?

Dr. Johnson: Yes, and I think maskne is a real thing. Medicines like this benzoyl peroxide can help. So let me offer a couple of specific pointers for your listeners. If your skin is not particularly sensitive, then you can use whatever benzoyl peroxide is cheapest. I just buy the Walmart brand 10% benzoyl peroxide stuff. But if you have more sensitive skin that gets irritated by the benzoyl peroxide, then you want to use something with a lower strength.

So my favorite gentle version is called AcneFree. It's a 2.5% containing benzoyl peroxide cleanser, extremely gentle. And the brand CeraVe also makes a good one called Foaming Acne Facial Cleanser, or something like that. Both very gentle. So if you try the normal stuff and it's too irritating, try one of those instead.

There's another product that I think I mentioned in the last episode called Differin. The medicine is adapalene, which is in there. Also good for acne, good for scars, also good for wrinkles, etc.

So what I normally recommend is you do the benzoyl peroxide cleanser in the morning, you put on something like Differin at night, and that's all you need to do for your acne. Don't use astringents. Don't use apricot scrubs. Don't use random creams from Mexico. Just those two things are the best things you can do that are over the counter.

And if they're not working . . . and give them a few months. It takes four to six months really, so be patient. But if you try it for that length of time and you don't get where you want to be, then see a dermatologist and we can help.

Troy: I love it. And it's such a simple regimen. Like you said, it just gets to the basics. Forget all the expensive products. Forget the mail order stuff. Simple stuff. Like you say, you can buy the cheap stuff at Walmart. It sounds like this is a regimen that in your experience sounds like works for the large majority of people with acne.

Dr. Johnson: If it's mild, then this works pretty well. If it's not mild, then it probably needs prescription medicines, but we have some pretty good ones.

Scot: All right. Well, I guess it is true that you shouldn't have to live with acne. You shouldn't have to go through what Mitch went through. And just to be clear, you could try those two over-the-counter products that you've talked about. You would recommend a patient does that first, and if after how many months they're not seeing success, that's when you'd want to come to dermatologist? Or would you recommend a trip to the dermatologist before you try any of those products?

Dr. Johnson: I would say if you're in doubt, see a dermatologist because we can tell you if all you need is that stuff or if you need something stronger. You can start using that stuff while you wait for your appointment to come up.

Scot: All right. Perfect. Do you have a final kind of thought when it comes to the topic of acne and men and our health?

Dr. Johnson: I 100% agree that nobody should have to suffer with it. We have really good treatments, so come see us.

Scot: All right. Dr. Johnson, thanks for being on the show, and thank you for caring about men's health.

Dr. Johnson: Happy to.

Troy: Scot, a common question I get asked when people find out what I do is "What is the craziest thing you have ever seen?" People love to ask that question. You've probably asked me that question at some point. I think you might have. But you've got to figure if you're going to see crazy things, it's in the ER.

And sometimes I think I've seen just about everything, but then I'll read different case reports about things people have seen in other ERs, and then it's such a unique thing. Then they write about it and publish it in a journal and I think, "Wow, I have not seen that and that's fascinating."

Scot: Have you ever run across one of these crazy cases in the . . . is it a medical journal?

Troy: Yes.

Scot: Have you ever run across one of those cases that then eventually you see and you're like, "Oh, I know how to handle that now"?

Troy: Yeah, I have. And sometimes you will see things and you think, "Wow, this is crazy. I've never seen it. I need some more insight into it." So you'll search for an article and you'll find a case report. That's the beauty of these case reports. You're like, "Oh, wow, someone else saw this and this is what I need to do, and this is their insight into it."

And I've published case reports too of things I've seen, like crazy cases that others haven't seen. So it's a cool thing. It's a process. You publish what you see and then you read what others have published as well. And these are in obviously reputable medical journals.

Here's a crazy case report, Scot. First question for you. Do you like black licorice?

Scot: Not really. No.

Troy: Some people love it and some people hate it. I really like black licorice. I really like it.

Scot: I'm more on the hate side. You can have all my black licorice.

Troy: That's so funny, because oftentimes if I ever get candy, I'll buy Good & Plenty. It's this black licorice coated in candy, and Laura's like, "I think you bought the one that's been on the shelf since 1950 because no one else eats that stuff."

Well, here's a case of a person who . . . this was reported in "The New England Journal of Medicine," one of the top medical journals. A 54-year-old man who came into the emergency department after experiencing a life-threatening heart rhythm.

So he was in a life-threatening heart rhythm. He was unconscious. And as they tried to resuscitate this patient, it sounds like they were able to get a blood pressure back and he improved somewhat, but they're trying to figure out why in the world this happened.

And so they talked to his family and this is what they found. They said this individual did not have a very good diet. His diet seemed to consist only of black licorice. In the past couple of weeks, he had been eating one to two large packages of black licorice every day.

I mean, that was his diet, essentially. His entire source of nutrition was nothing more, it sounds like, than black licorice over the past couple of weeks prior to this.

You might think from a health standpoint that doesn't sound particularly healthy. You're basically just consuming a lot of sugar and that's what's keeping you going. You're missing out on a lot of other nutrition, but besides being unhealthy, what's the risk?

Well, this is something I did not know. Apparently, black licorice contains a compound called glycyrrhizin. I have never heard of this compound before. It's derived from the licorice root, which is what gives black licorice its flavor. And if you consume too much of this, it actually drops the body's potassium levels.

Now, this being said, I have seen people come in the ER with life-threatening low potassium levels, and it does bad things to the heart. If your potassium is low, it affects the heart's activity and it can kill you.

So this person was consuming so much black licorice and so much of this substance, this glycyrrhizin, that it actually lowered their potassium level to a dangerously low level and caused their heart to go into some crazy heart rhythm. They lost their pulse.

The sad ending of this story is this individual went to the intensive care unit and actually passed away 32 hours later. So he did not survive.

But the point of this is there are certain hidden risks in some of these foods and kind of the whole thing of "all things in moderation." You eat too much of one thing, especially black licorice, it can have some kind of crazy, very severe detrimental effects.

Scot: That's exactly what I was thinking. I was just thinking that we think . . . well, first of all, black licorice is natural, so how could that damage somebody? But over-consumption of anything, natural or not, could possibly lead to bad outcomes or something going wrong.

And it just really reinforces when you're doing stuff, taking medications, or whatever, and you're like, "Oh, I'll just take a couple extras," if black licorice can do that, medications can have a quite a larger impact I'd imagine.

Troy: Yeah. The good news of this is at least half of our population is not at risk of this because they absolutely hate black licorice. I think it's like cilantro. There's something about cilantro that it's so polarizing, and black licorice is the same. People just think it's disgusting, and other people love it.

I'm on that side that loves it, but after reading this, I thought, "Well, once in a while I might eat an entire package of Good & Plenty in one sitting," but I thought, "Maybe I should be a little more cautious about that." I'm just kidding. Obviously, it's a huge amount that would take to do this.

Scot: An accumulation over time.

Troy: Yeah, it's an accumulation over time.

Scot: It built up, built up, and built up, and he just wasn't able to get rid of it fast enough I'd imagine.

Troy: Yeah. I think it was that part of it and then also the part of probably not eating the other good stuff, things that would provide potassium. So you've got something that's lowering your body's potassium and then probably just not consuming other things.

There are lots of things that can do this in diets. We see this a lot with alcohol, chronic alcoholics who their only source of nutrition is alcohol and they just drink tons and tons of alcohol. And then that affects their thiamine levels, thiamine and folate, and they can come in with severe nutritional deficits that cause some really severe neurologic issues. So it's not limited to licorice. There are lots of things out there that can do that.

Scot: Time for "Just Going To Leave This Here." It might have something to do with health. It might not. Could be totally random. Just something that might not have someplace else to live on the show.

Troy: Scot, I'm going to go first here. I'm just going to leave this here. I had an experience recently, and you were part of this experience. I have been speaking to you now for, I don't know, 10-plus months. I have not actually seen your beautiful face until just a week ago.

Scot: That's so sweet. Big old sweetheart you are.

Troy: Yeah, it is. It's crazy. It was a kind of a surreal experience to feel like I've been talking to you this long. And it's so funny, because at work that day, I had a little downtime between patients, so I was listening back just to a couple of our recent episodes. It was so funny having listened to you and it just felt like I'd been talking to you all morning, and then to actually see your face, I was like, "Whoa, there's Scot. I haven't seen this guy since March 10th," or whenever it was. So I'm just going to leave this here. It was good to see you. It's been a while.

Scot: Thanks. I appreciate it. I want to clarify. We record on a platform that does not have visuals, so we literally have not seen each other for that long. And it was a little weird for me, I'm going to have to admit. I think I'm a little awkward socially anyway unless it's behind a microphone because I feel comfortable there. So I'm standing there. You're looking at me, I'm looking at you, and I'm like, "Well, I guess that's . . . I don't know. What should we talk . . ." I could talk all day like this, but . . .

Troy: Exactly. We needed to turn away from each other so we couldn't see each other and then we could speak to each other.

So first impression. Any first impression, Scot, after not seeing me for 10 months?

Scot: Your hair is redder than I thought it was, because usually I think you keep your hair shorter. It's a little bit longer. I think there's some red in there that I never noticed before, but you look good. I mean, you had your mask on.

Troy: Yeah, you look good too. First impression, you look healthy. It's like, "You look healthy. You look good."

Scot: Thanks.

Troy: You've been staying healthy. I'm glad to see that.

Scot: Just going to leave this here. I love this little saying that I stumbled across the other day. I'm always trying to think of a new way to look at something to motivate myself or that might motivate somebody else, kind of a new paradigm, because sometimes just even a new paradigm can make a huge difference.

The saying is "You do not design your future. You design your habits, and your habits design your future." I love that, because what that speaks to is instead of thinking about what you ultimately want to accomplish, think about the things you need to do to accomplish it. Make those your habits, and then eventually that's going to become part of your future. Does that make sense to anybody other than the guy talking right now?

Troy: It makes sense. That sounds like something that Nick said recently. And he also kind of said that too. He talked about not just going for the end goal, but being more process-oriented. I mean, it's more enjoying the process and developing that process and then you take whatever comes as a result of that. Hopefully, it's a good thing. So it makes sense.

Scot: All right. Time to say the things that you say at the end of podcasts because we are at the end of ours. First of all, if you want to get in touch with us, you can do it a lot of different ways. The way that would be kind of cool is if you called 601-55SCOPE. That's 601-55SCOPE, and leave us a voicemail with your message, your question, your feedback, whatever. But there are other methods as well.

Troy: You can contact us, hello@thescoperadio.com. We're on Facebook, facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth. Our website is whocaresmenshealth.com. Also, subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. We're on Apple, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, whatever works for you.

Scot: Thank you for listening. Thank you for caring about men's health.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot: "Who Cares About Men's Health," providing information, inspiration, and motivation to better understand and engage in your health so you feel better today and in the future.

All right. Time to do a little roll call here. I need to know who cares about men's health. My name is Scot. I am the senior producer at thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health. Who wants to join me?

Troy: I'll join you, Scot, because I think it's my turn next. I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Dr. Gee: And I'm Dr. Chris Gee. I'm a sports medicine physician here at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Scot: All right, Dr. Gee. Welcome back to the show. Next time, I need a little bit more enthusiasm, though. Say like you mean it, okay?

Dr. Gee: All right.

Troy: Say it like your life depends on it.

Scot: That's right. Today, we're going to do a listener question episode. Some listeners have sent us some questions for Dr. Gee, who is a sports medicine physician. Why do I get cramps in a muscle, and can I fix that? We're going to talk about rotator cuff rehabilitation without surgery and is KT tape for real?

But before we get to the main topic, I have a question for you, Dr. Gee, or Chris, or whatever you want me to call you. Do you do time-restricted eating? Do you even know what that is? Like, fasting?

Dr. Gee: I've done some fasting, but I'm not very good at it. I hate fasting, let's put it that way.

Scot: So what does fasting look like? Because it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Dr. Gee: The basic premise behind this is that it's probably not great for our bodies to get huge boluses of food and to eat just kind of grazing all through the day. And so the idea is to have a time for your body to kind of process things. Some religious groups do it routinely with monthly fasts and ceremonial fasts. But obviously, the time-related eating is more that you eat certain times through the day, and then at night, you stop eating overnight, or whatever it is that you decide to do.

Scot: Yeah, that's exactly right. It's that time-restricted eating. We've had another guest on who's a nutritionist. He's a big proponent of it, like 12 hours of eating, 12 hours of not eating. Or if you want to try to lose a little bit more fat, you can make that 10 hours of eating, the remainder not eating, or 8 hours. So you have done that time-restricted eating and just don't like it?

Dr. Gee: Yeah. I am probably the worst nutritional person out there as far as my diet is just not great. I've done a little bit of it and tried it and I have a hard time. Let's put it that way.

Scot: Yeah. What's your challenge to that? Because I just started doing it again. I did it for a couple weeks before COVID and then COVID came along, and every routine I had went out the window. But I felt better even after two weeks, and I feel good now after just a few days of doing it. So how did it impact you?

Dr. Gee: For me, whatever the problem is, I tend to be really great with a diet or with some time restriction or something like that for a couple of days. And then it just goes out the window for whatever reason. I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just have this snack. I'll just break it this one time." And so I don't know. I've kind of done that. I know I need to kind of adjust that, but for me getting through the first day or two is just hard.

Scot: Yeah, it is a little tough. Troy, have you been sticking with it? I know you had talked about doing it.

Troy: I have been sticking with it, yeah. I do 12 hours, Scot. That seems to work for me. And I just tell myself I'm not going to eat after 8:00 p.m. and I'm not going to eat before 8:00 a.m. Just restricting it to 10 hours of eating, I think, would be really tough because then I'd be looking at stopping eating at 6:00 p.m. So I find 12 seems to work and it seems to be working okay. But I agree, it's tough.

Dr. Gee: Can I ask Troy a question?

Troy: Yeah.

Dr. Gee: How do you do that with your shifts? Do you still do a number of shifts in the ER?

Troy: I do, yeah.

Dr. Gee: I always have a hard time with that.

Troy: You're right. Yeah, that's what really throws me off, is if I work . . . As you know, Chris, we'll do these shifts that are evening shift. We call it an evening shift, but you get out of there at like 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and get to bed at 3:00. So those days, I'm probably not eating after 11:00 p.m. and I'm not eating before 11:00 a.m. So it's probably still working out to 12 hours because I'm trying to do better at eating at work. That's what I found. If I don't eat consistently at work, I get home and it's like 2:00 a.m. and I'm so hungry that I eat a ton, and then my stomach just hurts when I go to sleep and I can't sleep well. So that's how I've tried to adjust it, just by bringing plenty of food for work and trying to be consistent about eating so I don't come home hungry. But it's hard. With shift work, it's really hard.

Scot: And have you noticed a benefit, Troy? What does it do for you?

Troy: I have, Scot. When I first started doing it, I did feel like it did reduce my body fat somewhat. The other thing I like about it, I feel like I don't have to pay as much attention to what I eat. I know that's bad, but I kind of feel like it kind of gives me a little wiggle room there where I'm like, "I can eat more stuff that I was a little more concerned about eating before."

And then just going to bed, sometimes I would eat at 9:30 and then maybe I'm asleep at 10:30. And it wouldn't be until about 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning that my stomach would really feel okay, because that food just kind of sat there. So I felt like it's helped my sleep as well.

I feel like it's made a difference, and I feel like I've done okay with it. I've tried to do this since we first talked to Thunder about this. It must have been a year ago or so. And it's one of those things I've kind of taken from these talks we've had with Thunder that I feel has definitely been beneficial.

Scot: Well, I just was curious because I was curious to know, Chris, if you did anything like that as well and what your challenges were. I guess now we know. I feel like I wake up a little bit more clear-headed for sure and a little bit more alert.

By the way, I did see a documentary that talked about fasting. And there's some research out there that says even if you do it five days out of the week and two days you're not as religious, you still get the same benefits. So for somebody who works Monday through Friday, and then the weekends maybe they let themselves go a little bit. Maybe that would help. Chris, you think we can get you onboard or just no way?

Dr. Gee: You're tempting me for sure. I'll have to try it.

Troy: Maybe just three days.

Dr. Gee: I need to have a new plan. And so that'll be good. If I can only do a few days a week, maybe I'll start with that.

Troy: Scot, if there's benefit to five days, there's got to be benefits just to even three days, you know.

Scot: You would think.

Troy: You'd think so. Maybe you could say, "Hey, this is going to be my Monday, Wednesday, Friday thing," and start there. Don't eat after 8:00 p.m. Don't eat before 8:00 a.m., or whatever works, 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. Because I feel like 12 hours for me is doable. I feel like beyond that like, to consistently do it is . . . there are definitely days where I'm maybe restricted to 10 hours, but it's hard to do that consistently.

Scot: All right. Let's get to the topics here. So our listener questions, lots of ways you can get in touch with us. There's email, there's our listener line, and that's how we got a hold of these questions right here.

Dr. Gee, let's go ahead and start out with listener question number one. This individual says they get cramps, and they're wondering why they get cramps. What does a cramp mean, and is there something you can do to fix it if you have a muscle that's kind of consistently cramping? I've had this with my legs, my calves, for example.

Dr. Gee: There are a number of different reasons why a person may have cramps. First of all, and the most common, are related to maybe dietary things, or you're dehydrated, or you've been working out a lot and at a certain point during your workout or your run or whatever, you're getting cramps. So those are more nutrition-based recommendations where make sure that you're well hydrated, that you're not getting dehydrated through the course of your day or your workout.

Also looking at making sure that you're getting electrolytes with that, so some kind of Gatorade or something like that, that you're using to replenish those electrolytes as you are sweating.

But then the second group of cramping, the way I look at it at least, is that there are times where your muscle maybe isn't as strong as it should be. And so, if you imagine maybe you've got a calf cramp or something like that, and as you start to run and work out, maybe you're well-hydrated and you have good electrolytes, but the muscle is a little bit fatigued, it can't quite keep up with the demand that you're putting onto it, and it basically has to go into a bit of a spasm to hold the demand that you're putting onto it.

And that will often happen during workouts and things or even kind of after the fact as people are walking around. Those cramps, depending on where they are and what's going on with them, they can benefit from doing some more dedicated directed exercise at those areas.

There are different types of strength within muscles. A lot of times, the way we think of strength, we think of, "Oh, I can pick up this really heavy weight," and that is a type of strength, but there's also dynamic strength, which is basically where your muscles are holding your joints and your body through the course of motion. And if they are fatigued, if they are not up to where they need to be, they will basically have to go into spasm to try to hold that dynamic control, and that's oftentimes when people will start getting cramps.

Troy: Chris, imagine that you're mountain biking somewhere or you're running or competing in some kind of event, and your leg just cramps up. It's kind of like related to what Scot said. Do you recommend just stopping at that point and trying to massage it, or stretching, or just slowing down a bit, or just pushing through it? What's your typical advice when that happens?

Scot: What I love about that is Troy never, ever said, "Or just quit?" He never even offered that as an option.

Troy: I'm imagining, Scot, you're somewhere where you probably have to get home. You're on a trail. You can't just call Uber. You've got to get home somehow. So, yeah, how do you get through that?

Dr. Gee: Yeah, that's the next version of Uber, the mountain bike Uber.

Troy: The mountain bike Uber, just a little trailer on back.

Dr. Gee: That's a really good question. And I think all too often as weekend warriors and just recreational athletes, we tend to push through those things. And what I find is that that tends to make it worse. You really tend to have more problems as you continue to work out. And so I do suggest that you stop, you rest, try to stretch out that muscle, do a little massage. Think back on what you've been doing with your hydration. Have you been hydrating well enough? Have you urinated recently?

That's always a good sign to see where you're at with your hydration. If you've been pounding a ton of fluids and you're urinating really clear, you might be going a little too hard hydrating. But if you haven't peed for a while, and when you do try to go it's really dark, then you need to really try to push some fluids and recover and then kind of build your way back into your exercise. Try to maybe go just below that threshold at which you were cramping before, which can definitely be difficult if you're pretty far out and you're trying to work through a cramp as you're trying to finish.

Scot: So, in that situation, just want to make sure I understand correctly, and it's cramping, you should stop. Did you say you should rub it, try to massage? No, stretch it. You should stretch it.

Troy: And massage it sounds like, yeah.

Dr. Gee: Both. Yeah. Oftentimes, I find that when it's acutely in spasm . . . so we'll have an athlete come off the court or the field and they're acutely in spasm, really the only thing that's going to help or the thing that helps the fastest is to stretch that muscle. So really just try to stretch it back out, and then some gentle massage to try to work fluids around through that muscle to kind of break down some of the more tight areas that might be more likely to spasm.

Troy: That's good to know, though. Yeah, start with the stretch, though.

Dr. Gee: I've had people try, both personally and professionally, to just massage that cramp, and it takes a while to get it to release. And so I find stretching it first and then working into a massage is probably a better route.

Scot: If hydration was the issue and you started drinking some water, then would that clear itself up pretty quickly, the cramp, or not very quickly?

Dr. Gee: It can definitely help, but it's really hard, I find, once you start cramping to kind of turn that around, or at least within that exercise or that particular workout window. Usually, it's going to take some time for your body to try and correct the electrolytes and the fluid balance as such that it's going to ease it up.

So even as a recreational athlete, really listen to your body and know at what point you're going to start feeling that cramp come on. And if you can get to that point and say, "Okay, now I'm pushing it a little too hard," and start correcting those either fluid issues or technique issues, making sure that you're not pushing beyond that, it usually helps to prevent you from having cramps throughout the workout.

Scot: All right. Question number two. Boy, this is probably going to be a tough one. Rotator cuff rehabilitation without surgery. So do you see a lot of rotator cuff injuries? I find it fascinating that the rotator cuff is called one thing, but it's actually four different muscles.

Dr. Gee: Exactly.

Troy: This really hits home for me, because in high school I injured my rotator cuff. I never saw anyone for it, but I'm certain that's what it is. And I've convinced myself over the years, "I can do this without actually seeing someone for it." So I'm curious what you have to say, Chris.

Scot: You can hurt your rotator cuff like doing sports, but even if you fall, you could hurt it, right?

Dr. Gee: Exactly. Yeah, it's a very interesting joint. And it's one of those things that I see a lot of. We all hit the new year and we say, "Hey, I want to lift and get some definition in my body." So we go and we overdo it with shoulders and start getting some pain in the shoulder, or even getting out and biking and things like that we'll have people crash and have a trauma to the shoulder.

So, in general, just as kind of an educational piece with the rotator cuff, basically, when you look at the shoulder, you have the ball and socket joint. Now, the socket is really very shallow. I make the analogy it's more like a golf ball and a tee. So you have a big humeral head, or a big ball, that's trying to fit into this small little depression of the shoulder blade. And so there's a group of four muscles that come off the shoulder blade, and they surround the humeral head, and they move it around.

Now, because there's not a lot of bony restriction, it gives us great motion of the shoulder, but it's at the compromise of stability. And so that's always the problem, is that if those rotator cuff muscles aren't working together, and they don't have that dynamic strength and control I was talking about earlier, they will allow that ball to slide off the socket and cause things to get stretched and cause pain and impingement and other problems.

And so, when we're younger, when you're in high school and you injure your shoulder, usually that rotator cuff will just stretch. It'll stretch out. It'll cause some instability problems. But unfortunately, as we get older, ages . . . the rough estimate is 35 to 40, which that throws me in the old category. I don't like that. But as we get older, the rotator cuff doesn't tend to stretch as well, and it tends to tear.

And so those little things that maybe you can recover in a day or two as a teenager are going to do more damage as an adult and you can tear part of the cuff, and that may require more treatment than what you had as a youngster.

Troy: So when you say treatment, are you saying you definitely need surgery, or is it something where physical therapy or strengthening or those kind of things are going to help you recover?

Scot: Yeah, this listener is hoping without surgery.

Troy: Hoping you're going to say no surgery.

Dr. Gee: Honestly, I find the vast majority of these do not have to have surgery, which is great.

There are a few different buckets that these fall into with these rotator cuff injuries. If you're young and otherwise healthy and you haven't . . . like I said, it takes a lot of force to tear the rotator cuff when you're young. So most of the time, we'll put those people through some physical therapy working on rebuilding the rotator cuff. Working on shoulder blade positioning and posture helps with that rotator cuff, and that allows them to progressively get back to normal.

Even when you have an older patient that maybe . . . I've had patients that are in their 70s that are just pulling up something, maybe the sheet on the covers of their bed, and they've torn part of the rotator cuff. So, at that point, as everybody's rotator cuff gets weaker, believe it or not, you can do therapy with that group too. So getting out and getting some physical therapy, strengthening that rotator cuff, what's left of it, or the muscles around it, will actually calm their symptoms down and they do pretty well.

It's really the ones that have an acute traumatic injury. You fall really hard when you're skiing or you dislocate the shoulder and you acutely tear the rotator cuff. Those are the ones that more often need surgery. And the rest we're pretty successful with being able to rehabilitate the muscles and maybe doing an injection to calm down inflammation, but they do fairly well.

Scot: And I also think it's just always good if you have hurt yourself to go see somebody just because you start making those accommodations and then who knows 20 years down the road where that's going to get you. I think it's kind of gotten me into a bad place, and I'm trying to undo some of those things. It's not going to get better if I don't do some actively with it.

Dr. Gee: Exactly. Yeah.

Scot: All right. Question number three is KT tape for real? So this KT tape, this is the tape that sometimes you see athletes . . . I went to a chiropractor once and they put some KT tape on me. They cut it up and made it into some tribal looking design on my shoulder and my bicep. Is that the real deal? Is that legit or not?

Dr. Gee: KT tape has kind of been the rage over the last number of years and you see a lot of athletes doing it and Olympians doing it. When you look at really what it's doing, it's not going hold the joint into place because it's not connected to any muscle. It's not connected to any bone or anything like that. What it is doing, though, is giving a little bit of feedback through the skin, through the nerves that are in the skin, just to kind of remind you a little bit about that position.

So, for example, in the shoulder again, it's probably not going to keep your shoulder from sliding out. It's not going to prevent you from using your shoulder wrong. But what it can do is remind you as you start to slip into maybe a bad position, you start to feel a tug on your skin, and you go, "Oh, okay, I've got to bring my shoulder back, and I have to kind of get that better position."

The way I try to use it is maybe using it early on just to remind people of positioning. We'll use it sometimes around the knee and the shoulder just to kind of help people to think about positioning and activation of muscles. But over the long term, I definitely want people to get dynamic control and strength of their joints so that they don't have to use those things.

Troy: And do you find, Chris, it's more helpful than just wearing an Ace wrap or some sort of thin brace on your knee or something? I mean, does it seem like it does better than that kind of thing to provide that reminder that maybe you need to do things differently as you're going through those motions?

Dr. Gee: It can help in certain scenarios. So, for example, if somebody has an unstable knee, meaning their kneecap is kind of wanting to drift off to the side, sometimes taping it a certain way can help to encourage that to stay back and it can remind people. But you can get the same effect with even a sleeve over the knee that has a hole in the front that kind of encourages that kneecap.

So, as far as when you look at studies, they really say that any kind of proprioceptive feedback with an Ace bandage or a sleeve or a brace can help just to remind you of positioning of that joint, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the tape.

Troy: Duct tape?

Dr. Gee: Yeah, there you go.

Scot: I think it doesn't stretch as well as KT tape, right?

Troy: Maybe not as good, but . . .

Scot: In a pinch? All right. Dr. Gee, again, awesome job answering our listener questions. Sure do appreciate having you on the show. And thank you for caring about men's health.

Dr. Gee: Yeah, it's always a pleasure to be here. I love getting the questions and hopefully got some things answered.

Scot: All right. Welcome Producer Mitch to the show. I guess Producer Mitch has a question for Dr. Troy Madsen. Mitch, what was your question?

Mitch: I've been going to doctors and I've been reading the after notes in my chart. Is "generally pleasant" code for anything? I've been described by two doctors now as a "generally pleasant 32-year-old male."

Troy: That is great. It's not code for anything.

Mitch: All right.

Troy: It just cracks me up when people use that.

Scot: Hold on. This is in your chart? What medical purpose does this description serve, Troy?

Mitch: It's at the top, right?

Troy: It's so funny. Yeah. I never use adjectives like that to describe anyone because it's just . . .

Scot: In the ER, do you have to describe people?

Troy: I never use that. No, some people just do that. It's just habit, I think, just because the average person who is nice, who comes in, who they enjoy talking to, they will describe as, "This is a pleasant 30-year-old male who comes in with a chief complaint of," whatever. It's just habit for them.

It is not code for anything. It doesn't mean they think you're weird or something. Yeah, it's funny when it's in there because when I see that, I always think, "What are they going to say about the person who's not pleasant? Are they going to say, 'This very unpleasant, 40-year-old man'?"

Mitch: And that means something.

Troy: Yeah. Exactly.

Scot: I love how they use the word "generally." Mitch, does that concern you that in that short interaction that there was possibly a moment where you were not pleasant?

Troy: That is the one piece that jumped out to me. Typically, they'll say, "This is a very pleasant 30-year-old man." The fact that they said generally, yeah, that's a little bit of a red flag, Mitch.

Mitch: Oh my god. It was an ENT too. I'm like, "What did I do?"

Troy: Yeah. "What did I do wrong? What do I have to do to get very pleasant?" Ask them that the next visit, like, "What does it take to get a very pleasant description?"

Mitch: "What do I have to do?"

Scot: Yeah, "What can I do to just have you drop generally, just so it says a pleasant?"

Troy: Yeah, just need "a pleasant." "This is a pleasant."

Scot: Oh my gosh, that's fantastic.

Troy: Oh, yeah. It just cracks me up when I see that. It's kind of like this old-school thing. Yeah, like I said, I never use adjectives like that, but it's just funny.

Scot: But some doctors do and there's no purpose to it, Troy?

Troy: Yeah, there's really no purpose to it. It's not like I look at that and say, "Oh, good. I'm so glad I'm going to see him now, because if he hadn't said pleasant, I would not want to see this patient in my clinic." So it's not some code between doctors. Don't worry.

Mitch: Well, it's almost embarrassing, because I'm trying to read all their instructions, but I can't. In that first line, I'm like, "What did they mean? What did they mean by generally pleasant?"

Troy: You're trying to decode it.

Scot: You don't actually make it to the important stuff about your health.

"Just Going To Leave This Here." It could be a random thought, it could be something to do with health, or it might just be something that really couldn't find its place elsewhere on the show that we wanted to share.

So, on Instagram, I follow some health accounts. They're not your typical health accounts. This one is @letstalk.mentalhealth, and they have this little graphic that I love because I think it sums up the things that we're never taught that we should have learned at some point in our life that are so crucial.

This says, "What I learned in school: How to multiply eight times seven, and what H2O stands for. What I wish I learned in school: The importance of mental health, mindfulness, self-esteem, reframing negative thoughts, self-care, emotional regulation, personal finance, and the importance of sleep." And that's why we talk about some of those things on this podcast and some of those other things that we don't talk about. It's never too late to learn something new about any of those areas. They will pay dividends.

Troy: I'm going to add two more to that list: home maintenance and car maintenance. I wish they taught those things.

Scot, I'm just going leave this here. I'm just going to let you guess. What is the top-ranked diet of 2021?

Scot: Well, if you're bringing it up, I know you're a fan of the Mediterranean diet, and you probably want to give it some props. So that's my guess, Mediterranean diet.

Troy: No, it's the see-food diet. I see it and I eat it. Just kidding. It is the Mediterranean diet. We always come back to the Mediterranean diet. It's come up many times as we've talked about different diets. It is the number one ranked diet of 2021 by "US News and World Report."

The thing I love about the Mediterranean diet is it's such a straightforward diet. It makes sense. And then there's good research to back it up looking at heart benefits, weight loss, general health, all those sorts of things. Really good research to back it up.

So, if you're looking for a diet for 2021, and trying to switch things up a little bit, look into the Mediterranean diet. Again, we've talked a lot about it. But it's a very straightforward, great diet.

Scot: All right. Time to say the things that you say at the end of podcasts because we are at the end of ours. First of all, if you want to get in touch with us, you can do it in a lot of different ways. The way that would be kind of cool is if you called 601-55SCOPE. That's 601-55SCOPE, and leave us a voicemail with your message, your question, your feedback, whatever. But there are other methods as well.

Troy: You can contact us, hello@thescoperadio.com. We're on Facebook, facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth. Our website is whocaresmenshealth.com. Also, subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. We're on Apple, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, whatever works for you.

Scot: Thank you for listening. Thank you for caring about men's health.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot: Just go to facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth.com. That'll get you there.

Mitch: No.

Scot: No?

Troy: Dot com.com/.com.

Scot: You don't have to have a Facebook page, Troy.

Troy: You just threw it in several dot coms.

Scot: All right, take two. I love how the guy that doesn't even have a Facebook page is lecturing me on how I did it wrong.

Troy: I know too many dot coms when I hear it. I know that much.

Scot: The podcast is called "Who Cares About Men's Health." We provide information, inspiration, and motivation to better understand and engage in your health so you can feel better today and in the future. My name is Scot Singpiel. I am the manager of thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health.

Troy: I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah, and I care about men's health.

Dr. Galli: I'm Dr. Nick Galli, an Associate Professor in the Department of Health and Kinesiology at the U, and I care about men's health.

Scot: Today's show is called "Perform Like a Pro." So whatever it is that you do when there's that moment that you've got to do it and you've got to do it well, but maybe you don't all the time, are there some things that we can learn from professional athletes and how they have to perform when they're on the spot? And that's one of the things Nick does. Do you continue to work now, still with the U.S. Olympic speed skating team?

Dr. Galli: I do. Yeah. I'm a performance consultant for short track and long track national speed skating teams. They're based out here in Kearns, Utah.

Scot: Yeah. And you were at the Olympics four years ago?

Dr. Galli: Yeah, almost. Yeah, two and a half years ago in 2018.

Scot: So they've got their own physical coaches and probably their speed skating coaches, but they take you along to help with the mental performance aspect. Do I have that right?

Dr. Galli: Correct.

Scot: I sure hope so, because this is the whole basis of this episode. So some of the other things that Nick does not only consulting the U.S. Olympic speed skating team, he's a certified consultant for the Association of Applied Sports Psychology. He has a PhD in the psychological aspects of sports from University of Utah, a master's in sports study, a degree in psychology. He's a professor and a researcher at the University of Utah, and the last time I think you got a full eight hours of sleep was like six years ago. Sounds like you're awfully busy. You getting that sleep you need, because it is one of the core four?

Dr. Galli: Yes. I think I do a pretty good job with that.

Scot: So when you're working with athletes, what are some of the mental things that you encounter with these high-level performing athletes?

Dr. Galli: In some ways, it's very similar to the challenges that a lot of us face every day in our other roles, but these athletes, they spend the majority of their time across several years preparing for this thing, you know, really this once every four years thing, and for some of them, they'll only get one opportunity for it. So, you know, it's this they have everything dialed in, but there's still the matter of can I bring my best performance when it matters the most.

And in a sport like speed skating, there's a lot of differences between a normal performance, certainly a practice and performing at a world championships or Olympics, because it's not a big spectator sport. So all of a sudden you have eyes on you, there's more media, there's just more buzz about the performance than you're used to, and it feels different. And so, you know, being able to acknowledge that, recognize that, even welcome that, but also just, you know, do your thing. That's the trick.

Scot: Do these athletes get inside their own head, like I get inside my own head when it's time to do it?

Dr. Galli: Absolutely.

Scot: And what does that look like? What are some of the things that you run into there that you have to work them through?

Dr. Galli: Sometimes it's a matter of, oh, it just doesn't . . . I don't feel 100% perfect today. This thought that they have to feel 100% perfect or look at that guy or look at that guy or look at that lady, you know, look how good they look going around the track or how good they look warming up or, you know, in a sport, like speed skating and there's some others too.

Ooh, my equipment doesn't feel totally dialed in, You know, there's these just little seeds that under stress can, you know, become much larger issues if the athlete's not prepared to deal with them.

Troy: And what's the . . . yeah, I guess I kind of imagine this scene before, you know, an event. I'm wondering, are people just like super anxious? Do they look pretty chill or they just have headphones on relaxing? Like what's the usual vibe in that sort of scenario?

Dr. Galli: It's a range. For some, you wouldn't know by just looking at them, you know, that they're nervous. Some are pretty casual. Some will isolate. Generally, you are going to see a more intense look in the hour or two before they have to get to the line. And for the most part, at that point, the work is done and the athletes are just, you know, most folks other than maybe their coach, you kind of lay off of them and let them do their own thing.

Some do like to socialize a little bit more, and that's actually part of the challenge that we deal with is it's an individual sport, but all these athletes train as a team and they also have to learn how to deal with one another on these high-pressure days, because some people will like a little bit of small talk and chat. Others just don't want to be messed with at all. And so we have to help them learn about each other's tendencies and preferences as well.

Troy: That's what I wondered. Yeah. I read a book recently and it talked about Michael Phelps' routine prior to events and, you know, he'd have this period I think about . . . . Well, he had the exact same routine he would go through every time and then, you know, had about a period, I think, of an hour where he just, you know, got his music in. And then when the time came, he would step on, there was the same process. So I just wondered if that's something speed skaters incorporate that you see, or if it's just kind of a range.

Dr. Galli: The good ones do. The good ones do. I mean, in terms of like within-person, right, they're going to be doing the same thing again and again because that's what's comfortable. And at the same time, they're also flexible and know how to adjust if they have to, because, at an event like the Olympics, things never go completely as planned.

Scot: So you talked about, you know, some people just look completely chill, like they're not even phased by it. Is that because they've done training with a coach like yourself, or is that more of a personality thing? Or can it be a combination of both? Is this a skill you can learn?

Dr. Galli: Absolutely. It's a skill you can learn. There are some who are gifted. I mean, we have some athletes who actually require very little work with me. We might chat on about specific things that come up, but, you know, they've been fortunate to have the genetics and the life experiences that have empowered them to really know how to control their emotions and focus. And so, you know, they may be nervous on the inside and that's okay, but they're also in some ways unfazed, and some are just kind of gifted in that way and others need a lot more help.

Scot: You said that the really good athletes do the same things. They have a sequence of events. They do the same things over and over again. Why is that? What is it about that sequence that's powerful?

Dr. Galli: Well, I think some of it is, you know, as simple as these are the things that I need to do to feel ready. I've got to eat, have these nutrients. My body has to get warmed up in this way. I've got to prime myself for performance. So some of it is just like it's what works, but there's also the psychological effect of this is what's familiar, this is what's comforting.

And that's something I preach to our athletes. You have to find that sequence of events early, and you have to be using it even in, you know, benign situations like, you know, go into practice so that when you bring it to a foreign environment or an environment that's very different, when everything else feels unfamiliar, the routine still feels familiar and comforting.

Troy: And one thing I heard too along those lines in this, like I said in this book I read, they talked about how when Michael Phelps, who was like, by the time he was on, you know, up there ready to start his race, you know, he was already, you know, 90% of the way through his routine. Like his previous routine, everything had been successful in that, the race was just the next step in that.

So it was almost like, you know, this preconditioning something he imagined many times in his mind, the success in the race, following his success and going through this routine beforehand. So I thought that was kind of interesting that it, you know, kind of played into that of saying, "Hey, you know, I've already succeeded up to this point. Now I just go out and do my race and I finish it up."

Dr. Galli: One interesting thing about him was that he had a coach who really knew and understood what Phelps would need to be able to do. I mean, he knew that Phelps obviously was physically gifted, but he also knew what type of preparation Phelps needed mentally so that he would be totally unfazed.

So Phelps' coach would really test his focus. He would break his goggles, hide the backup pair. I mean, and these are only things that you would only do if you had a pretty solid relationship, of course, with your athlete, because sometimes we'll throw this stuff out, you know with the coaches and athletes I work with, but, of course, you have to be careful when you do things like that.

But he wanted to make sure that Phelps not only would be prepared in the event of kind of an unthinkable circumstance, but also as importantly was that Phelps knew in his mind that he could handle anything that might come up because sometimes it's the fear of what might come up that actually holds you back more than something that actually does come up.

Scot: They would . . . the goggles thing. Would he do that in . . . he wouldn't do that during competitions. That was practice, right?

Dr. Galli: I think practice. I'd have to go back . . . maybe like a lower-level competition. No, probably not like the most important.

Troy: In the Olympics. Hey, let's mess with Phelps, guys.

Scot: That's not the time.

Troy: No.

Scot: All right, Nick, let's pivot this here for a second. Now you work with athletes who, you know, like you said, prepare for four years for one performance. The rest of us sometimes have to perform. We know that maybe we'll get another shot, but still, it's, you know, just as stressful. Troy, do you have any instances in your life where you have to perform like a pro while you have to go and just, you have to get it right.

Troy: Yes, I do.

Scot: Now, you're an ER doc, so I'd imagine that that's probably going to be your story.

Troy: The answer is yes.

Dr. Galli: No, not really.

Troy: Yeah. It's pretty chill at my job. It's pretty low stress. Yes, I do. Obviously, I have a lot of very high-stress scenarios I deal with, but there's one in particular that I think for me, you know, certainly raises my anxiety and I think across the board raises people anxiety.

And if there's one time I have to perform and I just have to get it right is intubation. So intubation is a procedure where you stick a breathing tube into someone's throat down through their vocal cords. Typically, I'm doing that if a person is unable to breathe, you know, they're struggling, or they're so out of it, either from a head injury or some reason that I have to put that in to protect their airway.

And it's a high-stress procedure. I mean, it's one of those things, oftentimes, you know, people are really, sick or else there's a lot of chaos in the room, it's in traumas, but it's . . . yeah, I think if there's one procedure I would say where it's like, okay, let's do this and let's get this right, that's it.

Scot: And you probably already have that figured out after your years in the ER, I'd imagine,

Troy: You know, I do, but it's one of those things I practice it on a regular basis. And the reason I do that is for exactly these reasons. It's one of those things when you're in that situation, you just want it to feel like, okay, I've done this, I've done it many times. I'm comfortable with this.

And, yeah, there are a lot of different variables that can go into this. Maybe this person is actively vomiting. Maybe they have blood coming up from their stomach, you know, stuff I'm having to deal with. But when it comes right down to the procedure, I want to feel comfortable with it.

But it's . . . yeah, it's one of those things, when I was in residency, it was probably the most anxiety-provoking thing for me was being comfortable intubating and doing that, because essentially, when I do that procedure, I take away a person's ability to breathe. I give them a medication that paralyzes them, and the only way they're going to be able to breathe if I can squeeze a bag and squeeze air into their lungs. And if that bag doesn't work and I can't get air into their lungs, I got to get some way to get a tube in there. So it's something that often has to happen quickly and you have to get it right.

Scot: You practice this? Like, you'll just go in on your own time. Like an athlete would practice their sport and practice this procedure?

Troy: I practice it every day. And this is a funny thing probably for even my colleagues if they heard me say this, but it is a procedure, like I said, over the years caused enough anxiety for me. I practice it every day, and I have a little simulation, you know, sort of things I have that I just go through that muscle memory of, okay, here's the laryngoscope. I get my laryngoscope, I get my endotracheal tube. These are the medications I'm giving. I preoxygenate, give them oxygen before the procedure. Just to walk through that process and I spend a couple minutes every day just practicing it.

And I know it's again if my colleagues are listening to this are probably laughing, but it's one of those things. It is the procedure probably in my profession that can go south pretty quickly and as is probably the most anxiety-provoking procedure. So yeah.

Scot: Producer Mitch, why don't you grab a microphone and join us? So the plan on this show is for each one of us to talk about, you know, that moment that we have to perform like a pro, but I don't want to follow that one. So Mitch, what yours?

Mitch: You're going to make me follow it?

Scot: Yeah. Maybe we don't. Maybe we just go to Nick's advice at this point, because I have a feeling Troy does a lot of the things that Nick might recommend. Like what's yours? What's yours, Mitch? Go ahead. I'll do mine.

Mitch: For me, I always try to . . . I maybe even over practice. I find myself preparing for when I give my lectures in class. So I teach at the community college these days, and I'm teaching a new course that I haven't taught before. And it's a curriculum that I haven't done myself, and I find myself having even nightmares sometimes about like, oh no, am I going to say the wrong thing? Am I going to sound stupid? Am I not going to remember some of the facts that I'm trying to share?

And so I find myself reading the content over and over and over again. But for me, at least, I don't know if it's actually helping. I find myself still kind of stumbling every now and then when . . . you know, I had a student ask, quiz me on some riot that I did not remember that was in a strange sidebar in the textbook I didn't get. So I don't know.

Scot: All right. Mine is kind of silly, but so difficult words to pronounce or difficult names stress me out. And I've been in performance long enough that when I see one, I will practice it before it's showtime. I will say it out loud numerous times. And then in the moment leading up to where I know on the sentence before now I'm in the sentence, I'm coming up on that word, I'm going to screw it up. And a lot of times I do, and I really wish that I could get away from that because I just totally psych myself out.

So, Nick, let's go over just kind of all three of these stories and give us some tips on what regular people, Troy excluded because he's like some sort of superhuman, ER doc.

Troy: I'm not.

Scot: What regular people . . .

Troy: I'm far from and that's why I practice every day.

Scot: What regular people can do in these situations where they have to perform to maybe, you know, help them not necessarily guarantee, but help them, you know, do better.

Dr. Galli: Yeah. I mean, and as I hear these three stories, it's great because there's contrast there. There are some similar things that would benefit all three of those scenarios, and then I think there's also a slight variation there unique maybe to Troy's experience.

One thing that there really is no substitute for is to prepare and practice, and that's what Troy was saying. You have to make sure that you feel comfortable and confident in what you're tasked with doing, and you also have to try it out maybe in different circumstances and situations with distractions, without distractions, maybe handicap yourself.

You have to really not only to keep it interesting for yourself, but also just to make sure that there's some transfer from, you know, the practice to the performance, and that's something I talk with my athletes a lot about is that's great that you can go out there and nail it in a very casual, low-key environment, but why don't we try and amp up the energy and practice a bit so that it more closely simulates what you're actually going to feel and see in a competition. So no substitute for preparation and varied preparation.

Troy: Yeah. I always enjoy the stories like a football team is practicing with the loudspeakers out there, just with this loudest like it can possibly be, so they can't hear anything. And, you know, like you said, it's one thing to do it in a low-pressure situation where there's no crowd noise or not that intensity of it, you know, some sort of Olympic event, but certainly something else when you throw those variables in.

Dr. Galli: The way I describe it is, you know, we're never probably going to be able to completely replicate the emotion that comes with high-pressure performance in a practice setting. And at the same time, we're never going to be able to make that high-pressure performance setting feel like a practice setting, but is there a way that we can . . . and if you could see me right now, I'm using my hands. Is there a way we can take that high-pressure situation, make it feel a little bit more comfortable, and take the really low-pressure settings and make them feel a little less comfortable so that, you know, we close the gap between them and they're not such different situations.

Scot: So number one there is prepare. It applies to Mitch. It applies to myself. It applies to Dr. Madsen Troy. What are some other tips that you would have?

Dr. Galli: Another tip would be to just, you know, take a new perspective on the situation. And I think even for Troy, I mean maybe especially for Troy, it's like, yeah, this is a big deal and it's very important, but again, this is also a really privileged position to be in, to be trusted to essentially save people's lives, or for Mitch, you know, it's a privilege to be able to sort of guide the learning process, or for Scot, it's a privilege to be able to, you know, give people a voice and educate the listeners.

So, you know, being able to take a step back and think about your situation in less of a threatening way and more of a way that, hey, this is a challenge that I look forward to tackling.

Troy: That's great, yeah. I love that advice because then it is sort of takes it off you. It's like, hey, this is not all about me. This isn't all about my performance. This is about someone here. Think about the people you're trying to reach out to, the people they're trying to help. I'm trying to help this person, or I'm trying to reach out to these people or connect with them, and I think that I agree. I think that really helps performance is like, hey, you know, this isn't about me. It's about me helping them, and this is about them.

Scot: Yep. I wonder if that perspective too might contain . . . sometimes I get a little self-involved. I don't have quite the right word, but I think, "Oh, I'm the DJ, I'm the one interviewing. I should get this right." And maybe that is a little, maybe I should take it a little less seriously that way maybe.

Dr. Galli: In psychology, we call that shoulding on yourself.

Scot: Well, I'm covered in should.

Dr. Galli: Can we leave that in?

Scot: Yes. We're leaving that in. So prepare, develop a new perspective so it doesn't seem quite so threatening. It's more of a privilege. What else do you have there?

Dr. Galli: Where we start to diverge a little bit, for Scot and Mitch in that situation, you know, I feel it's appropriate to, you know, make sure that you're also, you know, enjoying the experience, having fun with it, being a bit lighthearted.

I think that looks a little bit different in Troy's circumstance, because certainly you can't make light of the situations that you find yourself in, but I think have fun or enjoyment maybe it means something different. In that setting, it's more being fully immersed. You know, it's that flow experience of like, you know, the balance of skill challenge, and really, you know, just feeling at one with what you're doing.

So it's not like ha-ha this is fun, giddiness necessarily, but it's more like this is, you know, what I was put on this earth to do, this is what I was meant to do, and I am lost in this right now. So I still think it's about getting fulfillment and enjoyment, but it maybe looks differently across those situations.

Troy: It's interesting though, Nick, you mentioned that. And something I noticed, when I started my training in medicine, is that we would be in very, very high-intensity situations like codes. So you've got people you're doing CPR and you're doing these procedures, intubation, central lines, like all these high-pressure things, trying to get someone back to life essentially. And people would be cracking jokes sometimes. I mean, they were focused on the task, but, you know, it was almost like this pressure relief valve.

Dr. Galli: Yeah. That's true. They were talking about the possibility of my wife, you know, before having our first child, you know, for, in case of a C-section, you know, talking about do you want the doctors listening to music and chatting? And she was adamant that, "No, I don't want that. I want them to be focused." And my input was, "Well, you know, if that's what they do, then that's what you should want them to do." So I'm glad you brought that up.

Scot: It kind of comes back to the Michael Phelps thing, right? Trying to create some sort of normalcy in abnormal situations. Something that's familiar and comfortable.

Dr. Galli: Yep.

Troy: One of the more surreal experiences for me in med school was being at Johns Hopkins, you know, in inner-city Baltimore. And being in the surgery suite, doing these kind of high-intensity surgeries with the chief of surgery there, and he's got country music jamming. He had his favorites, Garth Brooks jamming there while we're in surgery, you know, in the operating room. And that's how he performed his best is, you know, having something like that to diffuse the tension a little bit.

Scot: All right. So prepare, try to bring a new perspective, think of it in a less threatening way, have fun, be lighthearted, or try to get into the task that you're doing. If you're Troy, get into that flow state, just be totally in the moment. It sounds like what you're talking about there. And how about a fourth one? How about one more?

Dr. Galli: This is where I feel it will be interesting to get Troy's take on this one as well, where it diverges also. I think as a teacher, as a host, I think it's okay to be vulnerable. And, you know, Mitch, I can really relate to your story because teaching is something I do a lot of and I've done a lot of for the last decade. And I can remember early on feeling like, man, I cannot make a mistake in that room. I'm going to kill my credibility.

But actually, you know, almost always I did know more, I was mostly one step ahead of my students. But the other part of it was at some point I let go of, okay, this is 2020, Dr. Google is really in charge of the facts. Everybody has access to the facts and the dates. That's not my job anymore. My job is to help my students learn how to ask the right questions and to think about things in different ways.

That takes a lot of the pressure off, and it's not my job to always get it right. But when I get it wrong, it is my job to acknowledge that I was wrong and talk about why I might have been wrong, and how we can get the right information.

Be okay being vulnerable, be okay with that. And I'm not saying try to make a mistake, but acknowledge that you're human. People appreciate that. People appreciate when their teachers are, when there's that power differential knowing that, like, that person's human too and that they're going to make mistakes.

And then similarly, Scot, for you, even if you've prepared for the name, there's still some trepidation about I might get this wrong. So it's okay. I think when you're going to introduce somebody to sort of couch it in, "Okay, I want to make sure I get this right. Is it . . ." And then you almost sort of build in some leeway to you're acknowledging that, like, you're not totally sure you have this and maybe you do nail it and then you look great. And if you don't, at least you didn't give the sense that, oh, you thought you knew it and then you didn't know it.

Scot: Or didn't care or whatever.

Dr. Galli: Or didn't care. Now I think, and this is maybe where I'll be interested in Troy's point of view, if I was in the kind of situation that Troy finds himself in, I really want to be talking myself up a little bit more and making sure that I understood for myself I'm the best person to be doing this right now. This person needs me, and I'm going to deliver because that's what I do. And, you know, there's not maybe as much room for that outward expression of vulnerability in the ER. But let's hear Troy's take on that.

Troy: Yeah. That's an interesting point you make Nick, and it's funny, something I have learned to do over my career and I have consciously tried to do, and I've told myself is allow yourself to make mistakes. And by that, I mean recognize that I will make mistakes and feel comfortable apologizing for that or reaching out in those situations where I've made a mistake.

I used to beat myself up over those things. I used to expect perfection of myself. And if someone contacted me and pointed out a mistake, I would sometimes become very defensive, and I think that affected my performance.

So honestly, I think that, you know, you talk about not expecting perfection of yourself. I think being able to acknowledge when you make mistakes and feel comfortable doing that, then helps performance because, you know, you say to yourself, "Yeah, I could make a mistake," but at the same time, like you said, you tell yourself, you know, "I've got this. I'm comfortable with this, I'm going to give this my best shot and do my very best with this." And then, you know, again, I think the outcome is often better than if you're just telling yourself, "I can't screw this up. I can't screw this up," when you're thinking that.

Dr. Galli: And there's degrees of mistakes. I guess maybe that's what I was missing there. And that's kind of the nuance that goes with different, you know, fields of expertise. In my mind, it's like, wow, you can't afford to make any mistakes, but really there's also a range even in the work that you do.

And I like what you said about kind of combining the, yeah, I've got this, I'm trained for this, I'm ready for this. And you know that you might slip up, but you've also got a team around you to help you, and you know that you're good enough that most mistakes or slipups you make, you're going to be able to rectify those.

Troy: Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I think is helpful. You don't want to make the big mistakes. You don't want to do it.

Dr. Galli: Which could happen because you're guarding against, you know, some mistakes. That's sometimes what happens.

Troy: Yeah, exactly. Or because you're so focused on the little things and not screwing those things up that, you know, you kind of lose the forest for the trees, that kind of thing, where it's just you get so worked up about the small stuff that you'll lose that big picture and like, hey, this is what really matters.

Scot: So some solid advice, I think, from the athletic world to the personal world. So prepare, try to take a new perspective, have fun, be lighthearted if at all possible, or at least in the moment. And then be okay, be vulnerable, realize that you might make a mistake. If it's a high stakes situation, you know, then realizing you might make a mistake, it's save somebody's life, because now you're going to start to account for it. So that's good.

Mitch, do you have anything you'd like to add? Do you feel a little bit better going in the classroom tomorrow? Are you going to be able to use any of this, do you think?

Mitch: I think so. I think that the idea of, you know, being able to be vulnerable and, you know, I don't have to know anything. That's right, Dr. Google exists. So why am I putting so much pressure on myself to be absolutely perfect? It is. It's really helpful.

Scot: All right. And Troy, you learn a little something today?

Troy: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think just talking through these things, it kind of helps reinforce for me a lot of, you know, a lot of what I think. I've learned the hard way honestly. A lot of this stuff has just been stuff, you know, over time I've just said, "Hey, I got to find a better way to deal with this. I've got to find a better approach." And so it's nice to have, you know, really, I think for anyone listening, have Nick just summarize this stuff that's been sort of a long process for me to try and learn.

Scot: Nick, you have a podcast that you participate on as well called "Becoming Headstrong." You talk about a lot of this kind of stuff.

Dr. Galli: Yeah, absolutely. Myself and three colleagues of mine. We put out three episodes a week, and they're typically very short, 5 to 10 minutes, and it's sort of designed for the athlete, but also just the regular person and tips on how to perform your best when it matters most.

Scot: All right. So check that out wherever you get podcasts, "Becoming Headstrong." Nick, thank you so much for being on the show, and thank you for caring about men's health.

Time for odds and ends on "Who Cares About Men's Health?" And we've got one item that we want to talk about. The Urology Q and A, where we asked for your questions for our urologist, went so well we've decided we're going to do it with a sports medicine doctor this time, because I know that there's a lot of people that have different types of orthopedic, muscular issues, bone issues, those sorts of things that they might want to learn a little bit more about.

Troy, I need you to clarify though what does a sports medicine doctor do and, you know, help our listeners too so they can start thinking about the kind of questions to ask.

Troy: You know, it's interesting. I think sometimes people misunderstand a little bit what they do because it's called sports medicine. So I think people think, well, these are for athletes, like high school, college, you know, whatever. Really the best way to think about sports medicine is just orthopedics doctors who don't go to the operating room. It's kind of like John Smith, our urologist, who described himself as a non-operative urologist. He's a urologist who doesn't work in the operating room. He sees patients in clinic.

Sports medicine, same kind of thing. They don't go to the operating room, but they'll do all sorts of procedures in clinics. So if it's anything you would want to see an orthopedic surgeon for anything to do with the bones, the joints, the muscles, the ligaments, the tendons, you know, your neck, your back, any sort of bony or muscular structure, that's what they do. That's their specialty.

Scot: All right. So I have cramps in my calves, sports medicine doctor could help me with that?

Troy: Absolutely. Cramps in your calves, back pain, knee pain, wrist pain, you know, anything like that. That's what they do.

Scot: All right. Mitch, what would you ask a sports medicine doctor?

Mitch: I slept weird and I feel old and because now everything hurts.

Scot: Oh, that's something that you could ask a sports medicine doctor?

Troy: They might want some more specifics, Mitch.

Mitch: All right. Well, we'll get a referral.

Troy: What hurts? Your neck? Your back? Everything hurts. We do get that in the ER occasionally like, "Okay, let's start somewhere. Like help me out here."

Scot: What about like tingling extremities, like randomly tingling? A sports medicine doc would understand that because they look at nerves and musculature, right?

Troy: Yeah. They would understand that, you know, sometimes tingling we think with more neurologic things, but if it's more just like tingling in one hand, absolutely. If it's like tingling all over your body, that's a little bit more neurologic. So, but yeah, like tingling in your hand, like weakness in your hand.

Like I've got this pain in my left hand that I finally got x-rayed and I didn't break it. I thought for sure I'd broken my hand, but, you know, that's the kind of thing I'd see a sports medicine doctor for. I've had this pain for two years. What do you think it is? What should I do about it?

Scot: Even though it wasn't even sports-related so that's good.

Troy: It was sports-related.

Scot: Oh, it was. What'd you do?

Troy: Or if it wasn't, I fell while I was trail running, but it's like one of those things, but I could say it's not because every time I type a lot, I feel it in my thumb. So yeah, so maybe it's . . . yeah, even though at this point it's nothing related to sports, they'd be great people to ask about that.

Scot: Okay. So you can ask your questions by a lot of different ways. The way that would be cool is we have this listener line. You can record your message at 601-55SCOPE that 601-55SCOPE. If you want to email us, you can do hello@thescoperadio.com and you could also do it at our Facebook page, facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth. Did I cover all the ways to get ahold of us, Mitch?

Mitch: Yes.

Scot: They're increasing. There's more and more of them. So it really you're taxing my memory here. Mitch keeps going, "We should let our listeners contact us this way." Like, who cares?

Troy: Maybe we should just give out our personal numbers. Let's just throw it out in there too.

Scot: Troy's cell phone number is . . .

Troy: Here's my number.

Mitch: You can follow us at TikTok. No, let's never get onto TikTok.

Scot: All right. So get those questions to us, and then next week, we will have them on the show. Just going to leave this here. It might be something to do with health. It could be something totally random. Troy, do you want to start, or you want me to start? I know you told me last time you feel the pressure of always going first. So I, you know.

Troy: I'm ready. I am ready. Trust me. I listened to what Nick said, and I prepared and I visualize what I'm going to say.

Scot: All right, go for it. Let's hear it.

Troy: I'm going to say it. So I'm just going to leave this here. You know, Scot, we've had Thunder on here, and one of my favorite episodes we've done was hidden sugars. So I tried to use hidden sugars to my advantage. Before I go out on a long run, it's funny like, you know, if you're running, you really fuel yourself with sugar. I don't know if you did that when you did your marathon, but, you know, you eat a lot of gels. You drink Gatorade. It's really just a lot of sugar.

And before I run, I like to have something with sugar in it and something with a high concentration of sugar. So I tried to find the one thing that's reasonably palatable that has a ton of sugar in it that I could eat before I run. And I didn't want to be eating candy, I didn't want to be eating gels. Guess what I found, best stuff to have before you run?

Scot: Wow. Okay. So a good food with hidden sugar that's not candy. It's not a sports bar. There's nothing like that. I'm just going to say, like a yogurt. Was that it?

Troy: Applesauce.

Scot: Oh, okay.

Troy: Cinnamon applesauce. Ounce for ounce, the cinnamon applesauce I found has the same amount of sugar as a Mountain Dew. It's remarkable.

Scot: Wow. That's crazy.

Troy: It's crazy. This is stuff that people are putting in their kids' lunches for school. Like, hey, here's your serving of fruit for school. Ounce for ounce, same amount of added sugar. I'm talking added sugar. Yeah. There's the natural sugar from the apple in there. This is the stuff that's added on top of it. And you can find variations across brands, but this is one of the most popular brands of applesauce. But like I said, I've used it to my advantage. That's what I eat before I run now. It tastes good. Sits well on my stomach. But the flip side of that is prior that episode with Thunder, you know, I never would have thought about this, but I looked at applesauce because of some of the stuff he told us about some of these foods we never would think of with sugar, and I was amazed at how much sugar was in it.

Scot: Just going to leave this here, do you have any white crew socks, Troy?

Troy: I have just kind of short ankle socks. I do not wear the white crew socks.

Scot: I've worn those pretty much my whole life. I think I might be retiring white crew socks for good.

Troy: Please tell me you wear white crew socks with like Birkenstocks.

Scot: No, I don't.

Troy: And shorts.

Scot: I wear them in the appropriate times, but I might be off white socks forever. I'm down to my last few. And it's hard to find a pair anymore because the levels of dirtiness don't match. So I might have one that's . . .

Troy: It's a bit more like a gray sock now.

Scot: One that's a little bit more white than the other.

Troy: Gray-ish, yeah.

Scot: They're starting to get pretty thin in the bottom. So I might be getting socks, other types of socks at other places, so I might be off white crew socks.

Troy: Well, you know, Scot, I don't know what this says about this podcast or about us, but this is now the second time one of us has used socks for our just going to leave this here.

Scot: It's the one fashion thing I think guys have permission to talk about.

Troy: Exactly.

Scot: We can talk about socks.

Troy: We can talk about our socks. Well, I've got black socks now. I went with the black socks, the black kind of ankle socks and I like them. They feel good. They're nice.

Scot: Yeah. And they hide the dirt so that's good.

Troy: They're great for dirt. Yep.

Scot: All right. It's time to wrap this up with the things that people say at the end of podcasts because we're at the end of ours. Go ahead, Troy.

Troy: Thanks for listening. Be sure and subscribe. You can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts, whether it's Apple, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, whatever works for you. We'd love to hear from you. You can contact us at hello@thescoperadio.com or reach out on Facebook, facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth.

Scot: And the phone number if you want to reach out now, this is not toll-free, but if you're calling on a cell phone, a lot of cell phone, you know, have unlimited long distance, it's 601-55SCOPE, 601-55SCOPE. And if you have any feedback, leave a message right there. Thanks for listening and thanks for caring about men's health.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot: All right. Is this thing on? Check one, check two, check three. Troy, are you there?

Troy: I'm here. Can you hear me?

Scot: Yeah.

Troy: You hear me good. Okay. Made me nervous there.

Scot: Caleb. Check-in, Caleb. Are you there?

Caleb: Hey, I'm here.

Scot: All right. I guess I'm the one that makes a bigger deal out of the check. You guys just like Troy is like, yeah.

Troy: Here, here. Exactly.

Scot: "Who Cares About Men's Health?" The podcast that provides information, inspiration, and motivation to better understand and engage in your health so you can feel better today and in the future. My name is Scot Singpiel. I'm the manager of thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health.

Troy: And I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I'm an emergency physician at the University of Utah, and I also care about men's health.

Caleb: My name is Caleb. I'm a certified strength and conditioning coach. I work at PEAK Health and Fitness in the College of Health here at the University of Utah, and boy, howdy, do I care about men's health?

Scot: And it's great to have you on today, Caleb. I'm going to clap for you. Troy's probably not. He's a little harder to win over than I am. I tend to give it up to the guests right away. So we'll find out at the end of the podcast how you did if Troy gives you a clap so.

Troy: Yeah. Here we go. Yeah, we'll see if you're earning the clap. You got to earn the clap.

Caleb: I respect that. I respect that.

Troy: Thank you.

Scot: Getting back into our fitness routine, so I talked to Caleb last week at PEAK Fitness. I went in, Troy, Caleb saw me in compression shorts last week because I went in for one of those bod pods. You know, those are those tests. You sit in that little like canister and it checks your body fat, right?

Troy: I thought you were going to say that's like your usual workout gear. You just walk around in compression shorts.

Scot: Oh, man. I wish. No.

Troy: I was going to say I'm glad I have not spent more time in the gym with you, but yeah.

Scot: I was chatting with Caleb though when we were at PEAK Fitness, and he had an interesting story, I thought, that it would be really worth sharing with everybody because I think with COVID, our routines have been flipped upside down. A lot of us, that means . . . me especially, that means that my fitness routine, like I haven't strength-trained since March, I'm pretty inconsistent with exercise, and I want to get back into that fitness routine.

Troy: Because that was really a big thing for you too, I remember. You were doing strength training several times a week, and you had your walking routine. It sounds like it's . . . I mean, it's got to be tough to have that drop off like that.

Scot: Yeah. Well, it is and it's not. That's one of the things I liked about Caleb's story is I could kind of relate to what he went through.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: So Caleb, let's get to your story. So I asked Caleb the question, how has COVID disrupted your fitness routine? And your answer was . . .

Caleb: Entirely.

Scot: Yeah. So first of all, give us a little background of like what you used to do for fitness and staying in shape and some of the activities that you did.

Caleb: I actually used to play professional rugby, and I was playing professional rugby until literally COVID hit and canceled our season. You know, I was working at 24 Hour Fitness as a personal trainer, I was teaching fitness classes for seniors through the county, Salt Lake County, and then I would go to practice and we would train and we would bang some weights, we'd bang some bodies on the field online and, you know, late into the evening and then it was, you know, back home and it was rinse repeat for the next day. So yeah, I went from having a serious purpose, having a serious goal specifically in the realm of fitness, I went from having a very serious accountability process to having nothing.

It was actually really nice for a hot second there. For a while it was like, man, I'm being able to sit down and relax for a second here, this is kind of great. But you know, as that spring wore on, I was like, you know, if I'm going to play rugby again next season, if this is going to go, I can't do this for too much longer. I got to take advantage of this time, you know. This is a good time for me to be in the gym to be working out. And so the gyms opened up again, oh, I don't know what was that? Late June, something like that and one day I was getting ready to go back into the gym and the general manager for the team that I was playing for called and he said, you know, he's like, "Hey, well, so we as a club, we're actually going to go a different direction. We're not going to resign you, but you can, you know, you're a free agent now. You can sign . . . you're free to talk with whoever or field any emails or phone calls from any other club," and that was kind of the point where I was like, "Well, you know, I wonder if this isn't just kind of the right time to hang it up."

I was getting ready to start school here at the U, a fully funded and paid graduate assistantship program, you know, get my masters. Basically, get paid to get my master's degree and I was like, you know, I don't know if I can . . . I don't know if I can turn down a free master's degree for a few couple of more years of rugby. So I decided to officially retire, and it was kind of funny because right after that, I was on the way, I was getting ready to go to the gym that day and my, you know, the general manager calls and I have that conversation with him and I thought about it for about, about eight seconds and I, you know, I was like maybe this is the time to hang it up. And I just slid my shoes right back off and I slid right back into the couch. And then all of a sudden now any accountability I had for getting back into the gym was completely gone. And so from late June until, you know, early August, mid-August, I didn't do anything, and that was an active choice at that point. That was just like, that was me just deciding like I don't want to . . . I don't have anything to do here.

Scot: I was shocked when we were talking before, Caleb, a little bit because, you know, you were doing so much in the realm of health and fitness, and then COVID came along and it just all kind of came to a screeching halt and you said it was even a decision like I'm not going to exercise for a while. And you said you just really need to have that thing to drive you. Otherwise you just tend to sit around, which I can relate to because that's me. Like I think by nature, I'm lazy. I'm not saying that you are, but by nature, I think I'm lazy unless I have a reason to go exercise. I just won't. I would just as soon sit around, I think, and not do anything. Is that kind of your case as well?

Caleb: Yeah, I definitely identify with that. I mean, you know, as you can tell by . . . You know, you don't just start working 17-hour days just like for the fun of it. You know, that's kind of a process that you grow. And so, I mean, I had been doing that, you know, working tons of hours every day, every day of the week for, you know, I was in the Marine Corps for five years and that was a whole nother . . . That was, you know, 14 hours a day of whatever. So, you know, that's just kind of the lifestyle that I led, and I realized that I kind of . . . I like living like that to a certain extent, but the problem is that because I live like that, I don't know how to like keep myself accountable because I'm so used to having everything else in my life keeping me accountable. Does that make any sense?

Scot: Total sense.

Caleb: Like, you know. So yeah, so I'm kind of in that same boat. If I don't have something telling me what to do or if I don't have an accountability process, then yeah, I'm very much . . . I enjoy being lazy if I can for sure.

Troy: I don't think that's anything really unusual. I think it's just our nature as humans. Like it's what leads to innovation. It's what leads to, you know, technology so much advancement is because we're lazy and we want to make our lives easier.

Scot: That path of least resistance, right?

Troy: It really is. Yeah. It's just how we are, and you're right. It's a struggle, there's no doubt.

Scot: So, Caleb, now you're looking at actually trying to make a change. Like there was a turning point now that's happened. What was that turning point that made you decide, "Maybe I need to start exercising again"?

Caleb: Well, I mean, it's hard to call yourself a strength and conditioning coach and then be neither strong nor conditioned. So, you know, finally at a certain point I was like, you know, like I don't have to do it the way I was doing it, and that was kind of exciting, a little bit like there's an opportunity for change here, there's an opportunity for growth, there's maybe an opportunity to do things differently than I've done them in the past and see if they can get me to where I want to go. And I, you know, at a certain point, I think I went and I played in like a fourfold rugby tournament up in Pocatello or something a couple of . . . like a month ago.

Scot: Oh, ringer. Nice. Yeah.

Caleb: Well, yeah, you can call it a ringer if he's able to like cross the field once without, you know, passing out from asphyxiation. And so, yeah, that was an eye-opening . . . that was an eye-opening moment for sure. I was like, "Man, I am out of shape. This is who I am now?" You know, "I got to get this turned around." So yeah. So I just finally came to that conclusion that look, I know I need certain things in my life in order to make things happen. So I started arranging those things, you know, finding a workout partner, finding a program that I wanted to do, finding a goal, finding a new methodology, you know, whatever, removing certain barriers, adding in certain accountabilities, and really just get myself going.

Scot: Up until this point, rugby, I would imagine, was a lot of the driving kind of, you know, why you were engaging in fitness. What's the driving thing now? Like what is your, why? What's your purpose?

Caleb: There's a few different reasons. The first one being I want to set a good example for my son. I want him to see that, you know, like taking care of your body is a good thing and, you know, being strong isn't a bad thing. And, you know, I've always wanted to be the dad that is capable of still doing things with his kids. So I didn't want to let those days get away from me and that's where they were going. I could feel it in my back there for a little while, you know, you start to feel old.

And so there was that, but then there's also just the . . . I just think human beings were never meant to get old in the way that we get old in today's world, you know. We get old these days because essentially, our bodies get forgotten about and we stop using them and what you don't use, you lose, right? If you don't use it, you lose it. And we don't use our bodies, so we lose them.

And I think, you know, that time that's a fairly recent development in human history and human physiology. It used to be your body broke down from overuse. Eventually, you just used it so much and it just got worn out and it got tired and it just broke down. And that's kind of how I'd rather go. I want to be strong as long as I can. I want to be capable as long as I can. I want to work as long as I can. And I don't want to let anything pass me by. I don't want opportunities to get away from me simply because I didn't keep my body in a position to do anything with them.

Scot: One of the things we talk about on this show is the importance of getting some activity, right. And that does not have to be going into the gym and lifting heavy weights. It could be good getting out and doing a hike. Dr. Madsen likes to quote, who was that? That actor that said, "Get out and sweat a little bit."

Troy: It's the Matthew McConaughey rule. I heard him call . . . I heard, yeah, it's, you know, he's not someone I often quote, but I did read an interview once where he said his goal is every day to do something that makes him sweat. So it's not about getting in the gym. Maybe it's just about working in the yard, you know, maybe you're digging something or, you know, you're climbing or you're running or you're hiking or biking or whatever it is, something that makes you sweat. And so that's his rule and that's kind of his way he stays fit.

Caleb: Yeah, definitely. And that's a great methodology because it really takes the pressure off, right. It's like I don't have to go home and change clothes. I don't have to put on a special set of shoes for this. I don't have to go to a special location. I don't have to drive anywhere necessarily special. You know what, if I just get out and like take my kid to the park and he . . .

Scot: And play Frisbee.

Caleb: Exactly. Just go . . .

Scot: Right, or chase him around.

Caleb: Exactly. Go chase him around in the jungle gym whatever for a hot second, you know. Now you're being a parent and you're being active, you know. It's like it really does take the pressure off.

Scot: Hey, Caleb, I want to . . . Let's break it down for somebody who is struggling. Your story was a story of struggle. It was a story of you are very much engaged in your fitness and activity. And then the reasons went away and you had to kind of reevaluate. And a lot of people, myself included, have probably gone through that and you had to find a new way forward. So if COVID has disrupted somebody's fitness routine, how can they get back into it? Give us some solid steps based on what you know as a trainer and what you've learned through your personal experience.

Caleb: Well, I guess, number one, I'd find a reason. So that's the big thing. What do you want to do? It can be tough too because sometimes people will say, "Well, I don't want to do anything. That's why I'm sitting here."

Scot: I want to Netflix, that's what I want to do.

Caleb: Exactly. So find something, you know, find a reason, find a goal, find a reason to get off of that couch, find a reason to get outside, find a reason to do something. And then once you've found that reason, I think step number two, and this is kind of an all-encompassing term here is schedule. So find that time in your schedule and then write it in there. I actually . . . I'm not one for scheduling. In previous lives of mine, I've never really kept any kind of timeline of my day or anything. It was just kind of, well, when I finished one thing, I'll just get to the next one and, you know, just kind of went with it. But I specifically set aside two hours of my day, every single day for fitness. My time personally is 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. I schedule in time for travel and like that's my time frame, two hours right there. And I know that like when that notification hits, there's no . . . like I'm doing it. That's what's happening here.

Scot: And I should say you do a lot more than what they kind of advise for the average person. You don't have to get in and do two hours.

Caleb: Oh, no. Not at all.

Scot: Thirty minutes of sweating a day has been proven to be enough so.

Caleb: Sure, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. But then I guess along with that scheduling is like that's, you know, keeping that commitment, finding ways to remove those barriers that would keep you from that schedule, finding accountability. So not only taking away things that are going to get you out of the gym, but also adding things that are going to get you into the gym, right. And then number three, don't be afraid to reset the little bit. Reset the foundation, right. You got to be . . . you're on a journey here. You've got to find your new, or maybe you're finding it for the first time, you got to find your level, your ability, your whatever.

For me, man, you know, doing a couple of squats was enough to get me breathing pretty hard when I got back in for the first time, and so I knew I needed that body weight. I knew I wanted to reset that foundation and get myself back into it. Again, in a kind of no pressure situation, right, once you start stacking plates on bars and doing all kinds of stuff, now you're competing with your old self and you're ticked off because well, you know, I used to be able to do this and now I can't do. It's like, well, that's just . . . so don't even do it. Right. That's my thing. I just put it down, put the weights down, let me just move my body again, let me just find a way to move.

And so that's what I would say is focus or find the goal, find the reason, and then up that level of focus so you can keep that commitment to that reason and then find the best way to get to that reason, right. For me, it was going back to body weight, right? For some people it may be a national park's pass, right? Somewhere they can hike with somebody else. It may be, you know, a membership at a climbing gym, you know. Whatever it is, find your reset button, get back to what you want to do.

Troy: And Caleb, I think what you said about just being realistic about where you are, I think that's huge, you know, because I think sometimes we do feel like we've got to go out, okay, I've got to start exercising. It's got to be this heroic effort. You go to the gym that first day and you just do tons of whatever, and you come home and you're just dead the next day. And it's just like in my mind, you know, I just always feel like make it realistic, make it sustainable, keep it consistent. And yeah, in doing that, just say this is where I am right now and this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to be consistent with it and then reevaluate in a month.

Caleb: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Keeping it consistent is also . . . that's so big. One day I kind of had this revelation. It was after like a good workout and I had been very fickle. It had been like a week in the gym, and we got to the gym, two weeks back, you know, half a week off, you know, I had no routine, I had no plan. And then I had a particularly good workout one day, and I finished that workout and I was like, "Man, imagine if I did this every day for one year. I feel good right now. What if I did this 300 times and check back in a year? What would that . . . That would be incredible." And so that is a huge piece of that puzzle is like you with your running, right Troy, like having that consistency and that kind of stick-to-itiveness, right? Like some days it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. But imagine what happens when you fight off enough of those days and you string together enough days that all of a sudden now we start to see some real fun.

Scot: Yeah. You know, I probably wasted your time, Troy, because finding motivation or getting back into routine is not a problem you have. I don't know how you do it, but Troy has run now for how many days straight without missing a day?

Troy: Well, Scot, I looked back and I tried to figure when I started running every day, and it was about five and a half years ago. So I figure it was about a week ago, maybe a week and a half ago, I hit my 2000th day in a row. So I was proud of that, I was proud to get to that point. But it's funny though. We talk about this, and this is something I have absolutely struggled with. I mean it's, you know, through COVID, through a lot of other things that have happened, I have continually had to kind of reset that motivation and refine that motivation.

So I think that's a process where, you know, maybe there are people listening who are saying, "Well, yeah, when COVID hit, I didn't completely drop my routine. But at the same time, it just doesn't mean what it used to mean to me, or I'm not putting the effort into it that I was before." And I think I've gone through that process where there have been many times in the last six months I've asked myself, "Why do I do this?" Like all the races were canceled, so there was that extrinsic motivation. You know, my wife and I were running races, running marathons and traveling, and, you know, making trips out of it. All of it was canceled. I had qualified for the Boston Marathon. The Boston Marathon was first rescheduled for September and then canceled. It was made a virtual marathon, where we just went out and run a marathon and say, "Well, that's the Boston Marathon." So it's like this big thing you work for is gone. So it's been a challenge for me too.

So I think a lot of it is this process you've talked through as well, Caleb, of finding what do I just get out of this? What is the intrinsic value in this activity for me that I do every day and is it worth it? And, you know, the conclusion I came to is, yeah, it is worth it. I enjoy this. It means a lot to me. This is worth doing. And I even, you know, I even tried to say I'm going to up my game a bit. I tried to up my mileage. I've upped my mileage in the last three or four months to get more miles in just to try and find that more and, you know, obviously stick with it, but even try and build on that a bit.

Caleb: Yeah. That's incredible.

Troy: Yeah. But it's a challenge though. I think no matter where you are in this process, I think you always face those times where you question why you're doing it and you just have to just reset and continually go through that and find why exactly you're doing it.

Caleb: Yeah. Totally agree, totally. And I think that's the thing for people is they think that, you know, they look at somebody like you, Troy, and if sometimes, I mean, I wouldn't even look at somebody like you and be like, man, you got it all figured out, you know, your life, you got like the social media life, right? Like everything hunky-dory, there's a smiling family, couple of kids, it's beautiful, you know. But like that's the thing is everyone's fighting their own battle here, and there's always going to be reasons not to do something, right, like running or just physical fitness in general, right. It's like why is this even a conversation? We know it's good. Everyone knows it's good for you. Why are we even talking about this? We shouldn't have a problem with this, but we do, right, because there's always reasons. There's always a reason to not do something.

And so it's important to focus on those things, those reasons why you should and why I want to and why can't I? Right. Like it's such a huge thing finding that positivity and focusing on that and allowing that to be the driving force behind your motivation rather than it being, well, I don't want to get fat, so I should run, you know, or like, I don't, you know, finding those negative aspects of motivation are just as bad as having no motivation at all. So we want to find ways to get yourself there and be kind to yourself in the process, right.

People are always like, well, there's always tomorrow. I can get my health in line tomorrow. It's like, well, but then if you start . . . but if you started today, then tomorrow would be day one and not day zero, you know? And then that would make day 365 come a lot sooner. And so if you just keep putting things off, it'll never happen, but you know, the journey of 1,000 miles takes a single step, right? So that's, I think, a huge piece of that puzzle is finding the reason to make today the day. That's a huge . . . and once you figured out, "Hey, today's the day," and then that makes every day, every day, man, now you're making some serious strides and now you can start to see some changes.

Troy: Yeah. And I think too, I think a big thing, and sometimes we've talked about on here is congratulating yourself for what you've done. Like sometimes you think, "Oh, I've got to do more and more and more." But that's been part of this process for me too, is just saying, "Hey, I'm really happy with where I am." Like I got my . . . I went to my doctor back in August. I got my cholesterol checked, and it wasn't really time to get it checked again. And he's like, "Oh, we'll do some blood work because I couldn't get my lipid panel." He goes, "Okay, we'll do it." And I was so excited to see my numbers because I have struggled with that, and so just seeing my HDL is high, my LDL is low, stuff like that it's just like . . . I think it's good to have that just to say, "Hey, this is worth it," you know. Pat yourself on the back a little bit, recognize what you're doing, and then keep building on it.

Scot: Couple of the takeaways that I got that I really enjoyed here, try to find the positive reason. Don't just look while I'm doing this because I don't want to get fat. I think I look at it that way. So I'm going to start looking for positive reasons. But I'm going to really also look for just that intrinsic thing. What is it intrinsically beyond the health and fitness is it that I get out of these things? And I'm kind of excited about trying something new with COVID. So I got some kettlebells and in a future episode . . . have you done kettlebells before, Caleb?

Caleb: Oh, yeah.

Scot: Okay. I need . . .

Troy: I haven't. So this is going to be good for me. I've never done kettlebells.

Scot: Yeah. I've done a little research into kettlebells, I'm intrigued by them, but I need some professional advice. So on a future episode, will you talk me through how to get started with kettlebells so I don't do something stupid?

Caleb: Yeah, let's do it.

Scot: Troy, is there any takeaways you'd like to hit up?

Troy: My takeaway from this is, Scot, it's a song, and Caleb kind of mentioned this and it's a song I often think about. It is on my run playlist that I listened to Baz Luhrmann, "Everybody's free to wear sunscreen."

Scot: Oh, that's a great song. Love it. Yeah.

Troy: Great song. It was for the class of '99. That's the year I graduated from college, so it's on my playlist. But one thing he says in there I often remember is the race is long, and in the end, it's only with yourself. And Caleb, there's something you said there too. It's not about competing with others. It's about just saying, "Hey, where am I today?" You know, it's a long race, so let's just try and, you know, move forward. Let's try and build on where I am today and not look at what others are doing, and, you know, not try and beat someone else out. So that kind of stuck with me what you mentioned there, Caleb.

Caleb: Yeah. Hey, I'm glad to have inspired you back to the '90s, that's great.

Troy: Absolutely. Anything to quote songs from the '90s.

Scot: Caleb, thank you so much for taking time to share your story, and thank you for caring about men's health.

Caleb: Yeah. Thanks for having me, I really appreciate it.

Scot: All right. Time for Odds and Ends on "Who Cares About Men's Health?" And Troy, do you have your party hat and party horn ready?

Troy: I am so excited for this moment. I have missed producer Mitch so deeply, and we get to hear from him now. I'm so excited.

Scot: We're on Skype with producer Mitch, and we have him on the show because we want to say congratulations for being one year smoke free. Now we're going to see if that gets a clap out of Troy. It definitely gets claps.

Troy: Oh, absolutely. Congratulations, Mitch, for one year. That's awesome.

Scot: That is amazing. One year smoke free. So for real, you've gone a year without smoking a cigarette. You didn't even have a moment where you had one in a moment of weakness.

Mitch: No. No cigarette, no JUULpod. No, no nothing.

Scot: All right. I mean, be honest after the earthquake you must have.

Mitch: Oh no. No, no, no. I just grumpily drank coffee and looked at all the other people smoking.

Troy: Come on, Mitch. You after COVID you must have.

Scot: Yeah. After COVID you must have.

Troy: Come on, after the wildfires, you must have.

Scot: And after the wind storms.

Troy: After the wind storm, you must have.

Scot: Hundred-year-old trees here in Salt Lake City, you must have had a cigarette.

Mitch: I didn't. Nope, not a single one.

Scot: That's amazing.

Troy: Talk about a year to quit smoking. I mean, you really made it tough, man. You really set yourself up, but you did it all through the joys of 2020. You've made it.

Scot: Do you feel better after a year of not smoking, physically better?

Mitch: I do. I do. I sleep better. But I guess the more part of it is that like craving still happens. I mean, I still . . . if someone were to offer me, it would still be a challenge. But at the same time, I don't have a shortness of breath, you know. When I do choose to go running these days, I can. I can go out and I can run and I'm not heaving and feeling like I'm going to die, you know. I don't have these random chest pains that I'm terrified or a heart . . . or like a cancer or a heart attack or something like that. That fear is gone and just having that little anxiety not there, that's what it really is. That's really the change so.

Scot: It's interesting though, you said you still have the cravings. I wonder, have you talked to others who say that goes away at some point, or do they say that's always there? I'm not sure. I don't know.

Mitch: So to answer that, like, I don't know. It seems like every person I've met who's smoked for a long time, they all say that they still to this day, it doesn't matter how long they've quit, they've had those cravings. So I don't know. Maybe they'll go away, maybe they won't, but at the same time I at least know that it will feel . . . that I appreciate not having the anxiety. I appreciate not being nervous every day that I'm going to just suddenly die of a heart attack or find cancer the next day. And I think it's that relief that keeps me from dipping back into it so.

Troy: Congratulations, Mitch, just incredible that you've done this. It's great to hear your voice too. We haven't had a chance to talk to in a couple of weeks, but so glad you've been successful and happy one year anniversary on quitting smoking.

Scot: Congratulations. Thank you for sharing your story. And like we say to all our guests, thanks for caring about men's health.

Mitch: No, thank you.

Scot: Time for just going to leave this here. That's where we might have something to do with health that's on our mind, or it might just be something completely random. Just going to leave this here. Troy, have you ever gotten toothpaste in your eye before?

Troy: I kind of have. Like, I have an electric toothbrush, and when I first started using it, sometimes I forgot to like completely turn it off when I pulled it out of my mouth and I'd have to say I do remember getting some toothpaste in my eye, but I'm guessing there's more to this than just a little bit of toothpaste.

Scot: No. I got toothpaste in my eye. So you got kind of diluted toothpaste. You got the toothpaste after it'd been in your mouth for a while. I don't know what happened, but I put toothpaste on my electric toothbrush, I turn it on, and then I had this tremendous stinging in my left eye. And it's got to . . . it had to be, it had to be toothpaste, you know. I went and rinsed my eye out. Was that the right thing to do?

Troy: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Rinse your eye out.

Scot: That's okay?

Troy: Yeah, just run it under cold, yeah, just kind of lukewarm water, and yeah. That's the best thing. Anytime you get anything in your eye, if you can just tolerate, just tilting your head to the side, let that water run in there and wash it out.

Scot: Oh, should I have gone to the ER?

Troy: Yes, please. I wish you had come in during my night shift. It would have just given me so much joy to see you there because you had toothpaste in your eye. Well, Scot, I'm just going to leave this here. You know, I have to give a shout out to my crew for my virtual Boston Marathon. I know I've talked about this before, but they canceled the Boston Marathon. They did this thing where they said, basically go out, run a marathon, and then we will count it as your Boston Marathon. This was the 124th Boston Marathon. They've never missed a year so . . .

Scot: That would have been your first Boston Marathon.

Troy: Yeah. It would have been my first. Yeah. So basically, what I did . . . So Laura, my wife, she drove me up to the top of the Mirror Lake Highway, 10,777 feet at the Bald Mountain trailhead, and that's where I ran my virtual marathon. I ran down the Mirror Lake highway. Charlotte, my dog, she ran with me the first half, and then Laura and Sally and Itty Bit, Itty Bit is our other dog. We have those three that were in the car the second half, and she was there obviously the first half as well leapfrogging me, giving me water, encouraging me. She even had a trophy for me at the end for the COVID Marathon. Did you see it?

Scot: I saw that trophy, yeah, I did.

Troy: First place.

Scot: Was that a surprise? Did you not expect the trophy?

Troy: I didn't expect it, but my favorite part of the trophy was she had it engraved so it said first place COVID Marathon, but she didn't have my name engraved on it because as I thought about it afterward, there must have been a chance that maybe someone else could have gotten first place in the COVID Marathon. I do remember passing someone at one point on the road, so maybe they were in this as well, but I beat them. I got first place. So anyway, it was, you know, it was kind of a bummer with Boston getting canceled, made it a fun experience so.

Scot: Well, congratulations. So now it's done, like if they run the Boston Marathon next year, your qualification, even because of COVID is no longer valid?

Troy: It's kind of weird. You can use your qualifying time for this year and resubmit it for next year, but it's really a bummer like if your qualifying time maybe didn't beat the time by a lot, by more than maybe a minute or two, it's possible that you would not qualify for the 125th Boston Marathon. So you just have to resubmit it with everyone else submitting stuff so.

Scot: You're going to do that.

Troy: Oh, yeah, yeah. I'll submit it, but it's funny. Normally, that would be happening right now where you submit your time and you see if he got in, but they're delaying it because you know, because of COVID. They don't even want to start to make plans for next year, which would typically be mid-April. So we'll see what happens. I wouldn't be surprised if they can't run it. I don't know. We'll see.

Scot: All right. Time to say the things that you say at the end of podcasts. I'm going to start that over. All right. Time to say the things that people say at the end of podcasts, because these people, Troy and I, are at the end of our podcast. So thank you very much for listening. Subscribe, whatever podcatcher you like would be great and if it has the ability to rate and review, that'd be much appreciated as well because it does help other people that would enjoy this find it.

Troy: You know, you can reach out to us. Reach out to us. You can find us on Facebook, facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth. Our website is whocaresmenshealth.com. You can email us, we'd love to hear from you, hello@thescoperadio.com. We even have our call-in number. Scot, can you give them the number?

Scot: 601-55SCOPE. Go ahead and write that down, Troy, and write that down, everybody else. 601-55SCOPE. If you have any questions, comments, you just leave your message right there. Is that it? Did we cover everything, Troy?

Troy: I think that covers it. And if you call that number, you can hear Mitch's very encouraging voice to encourage you to leave a message for us. So call in, let us know what's on your mind. Let us know what you'd like to hear us talk about. And thanks for listening and thanks for caring about men's health.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

With the end of the season upon us Scot, Troy, and Mitch take a look back at the past six months, discussing their favorite episodes of the season, their accomplishments, and the big realizations they've come to about their health and life in general.

• EP44: The 4 Rules of Rest with Dr. Kelly Baron
• EP55: Surprise! It's Hidden Sugar with Thunder Jalili, PhD
• EP50: Putting Runner Controversies to Rest with Shane Thoreson and Laura Lamarche

• EP48: Get to Know Your Macros - Protein with Thunder Jalili, PhD
• EP33: New Year Resolutions Suck with listener Jay
• Ep51: Do I Need an Antidepressant? with Dr. Kyle Bradford Jones

• EP41: At Home Genetic Test - Listen Before You Spit with Karin Dent
• EP45: Three Tools for Your Mental Health Toolbox with Listener Ben and Kevin Curtis
• EP52: Carbs Aren't Bad with Thunder Jalili, PhD

Troy is coming to the realization that there is no "magic bullet" or "secret sauce" to health. After speaking with guests over the past two seasons, he's learning it's all about holding to a core set of simple principles and keeping consistent to the health behaviors where you can.

Scot has learned how to eat again. He used to weigh food and scheduled eating times every day with a very strict macronutrient breakdown By speaking with Thunder about nutrition, he's letting go of a lot of the "baggage" he's gained over years of not so practical diet advice.

For Mitch, the shelter in place has forced a lot more self-reflection in his day to day, especially taking stock of his mental health. This has led to an improvement in communication and relationship with his partner that he works alongside all day since the shelter-in-place.

Troy has seen the impacts of COVID-19 first-hand in the ER. The only real defense against the disease right now is being generally healthy. While this podcast often speaks about health and the benefits that will pay off in 30 years, the pandemic is making the immediate importance of health very apparent.

Keeping consistent with your health can be just as hard as making big changes. Despite the stresses that come from being an ER physician during COVID-19, Troy has stuck to his daily running routine and is celebrating 5 years of running every single day.

Sometimes accomplishments aren't obvious until you take a look back at where you've come from. While Scot originally felt he had nothing to celebrate, after looking back and reflecting, he realized he has done quite a bit in the past 6 months. Whether it be completing another class towards his Master's Degree, converting his classes online, learning to speak in front of a camera, or just getting out and working on his photography with his wife.

A special thank you to all the friends and listeners of the show that participated in the 5k last weekend. It was a long journey for producer Mitch. Even with the setback of a major injury, he reached his goal of going from couch to running a 5k. He shares his experience and what the event meant to him.

See more photos of the event and the listeners who participated on our Facebook page.

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Mental health issues impact one in five adults in the U.S. and up to 35% of American men are struggling with some sort of mental health condition. Despite its prevalence, it seems like men are unlikely to talk about their mental health with others.

Listener Ben first realized he was struggling with mental health issues roughly 10 years ago. Some big changes at work early in his career started making him feel like his life was getting out of control and unmanageable.

Ben was unaware of the extent of his trouble until his father approached him during a family dinner. He mentioned that Ben didn’t seem like the same person he used to be. This was Ben’s wake up call to seek professional help.

Ben’s entry into mental health services came through the Employee Assistance Program (EAP) that was included in his insurance plan. He learned that the service was created to be a short-term treatment with outcome-focused results. He called the number, made an appointment, and his handle on his mental health dramatically turned around.

Kevin Curtis is a licensed clinical social worker and one of Ben’s good friends. According to Kevin, it is pretty common for people to not realize there is a problem with their mental state until someone in their lives mentions something.

It can be extremely difficult to self diagnose mental health problems. "Most people can see when other people are not doing well," says Kevin. "But they are poor at judging when they aren’t doing well themselves." Even Kevin, as a therapist, uses a mental health professional to work through his troubles. Building Your Mental Health Toolbox

Ben met with a licensed clinical therapist through the EAP program. He appreciated the objective outside perspective and the tools, techniques the therapist provided. After just a few sessions, Ben had the starting of what he calls his "Mental Health Toolbox." A set of techniques he uses to this very day.

In just a few short months Ben notes the marked improvement the therapist had on his life.

Kevin explains that it’s quite common for people to mistake mental health as something that is approached differently than physical health. When a person talks about typical physical health, they understand that there is a broad spectrum of the type of help available depending on the ailment. Primary care physician for maintenance. Specialists for specific issues. Emergency room for a crisis. But when most people think of mental health, they assume you only seek help during a crisis.

He likens this misconception to utilizing a financial planner. You don’t only go to a financial planner when you are in bankruptcy. It’s better to go to a planner before it’s an emergency so they can help set you up for success.

"It’s not what are the problems you are experiencing you want to solve," Kevin explains. It’s more a question of how could your life be better, and what are you willing to do to make it better?" How to Find Help

If you feel you could use some professional help with your mental health, Kevin shares a few avenues you can use to find care.

• Most people that are employed with insurance have some sort of EAP program included with their benefits. Reach out to your employer to find out what services are available to you.
• For people without insurance, there are plenty of low-cost counseling services and organizations available.
• Ask the licensed clinical social worker, therapist, or psychologist, if they use a "sliding scale." Many providers offer services at a cost that is relative to your financial situation. Asking that question should help you find help that won’t break the bank.

Troy received an email from a listener. Apparently this individual found a bat in the woods and played around with it. His family is now insisting he needs to go get a rabies shot, even if he wasn’t bitten. So he reached out to Dr. Madsen to ask what he should do.

Short answer: Better safe than sorry. There is no treatment for rabies, only a preventative shot. The series of shots are not the terrible ones you may have heard of that go into the stomach. The rabies vaccine goes right in the arm like any other injection.

Bats should not be played with. Rabies can be passed not only from a bat bite but from their saliva as well. The chance for infection is so serious, the CDC recommends you get a rabies shot if you wake up in the same room as a bat.

Additionally, it’s smart to avoid playing with wild animals, especially ones that eat meat. These creatures can be asymptomatic carriers that can transmit the disease to humans even if they don’t show any signs. Odds and Ends

The Who Cares About Men’s Health 5K is on June 20. We encourage anyone who wants to join this virtual race and show support for Mitch as he gets closer to his goal of going from couch to 5K. The virtual race can be completed any way you’d like, whether it be running, biking, walking, skipping, whatever you can do to get in your physical activity that day.

Troy shared a photo of him and his corgi in their race bibs to show support for Mitch and his goal of running a 5k. Visit our Facebook page to get your 5k race bib. Download and print the file so you’re ready for race day. Take a photo of yourself in the bib and post them to the Who Cares Facebook page or using the hashtag #WCAMH5k to show your support. Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Troy has finally joined social media and is afraid he won’t have any friends and Scot wishes he looked as cool as his shadow does when he runs. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

It seems like everyone is trying to cut carbohydrates in their diet. Yet, carbohydrates are one of the three major macronutrients the body needs every single day. Are carbs really the enemy to your nutrition goal? Nutrition expert Thunder Jalili is back to clear up the myths about carbs.

Carbs are a category of macronutrients that are built around glucose, starch, and other naturally occurring sugar compounds. They are used by the body as an energy source. These compounds are fundamentally the same whether you get the carb from an apple or a soft drink, but they differ in their potential benefits and how the body can use them.

Thunder breaks carbs down into two categories: natural, plant-based carbohydrates, and refined carbohydrates that are added during food processing. He wanted to make it clear that this is not the typical "good" versus "bad" dichotomy that a lot of fad diets try to create. Think of Carbohydrates Like a Drug Dosage

"Think of it kinda like a drug dosage," explains Thunder. Compare the carbs contained in a sweet potato versus a big gulp soda. First, when looking at the form the carbohydrate takes, the sweet potato's carbs are in a food matrix that slows the body's absorption. The highly processed sugar in the soda absorbs much faster and produces a much more robust insulin response.

Secondly, consider the concentration in these two carb sources. Besides being a quickly absorbed form of carbohydrate, the amount of sugar contained in a large soda can be as high as 30-40 teaspoons. To get a similar amount of sugar from a plant-based source like an apple, you would need to eat five whole apples. Most people wouldn't sit down and plow through five apples in a sitting, but sucking down a large soda over 30 minutes is not unheard of. It's much easier to "overdose," or consume too many carbs (and calories) from highly processed sources and foods with added sugar.

Finally, it's important to take into account the other "good stuff" that the unprocessed sources of carbohydrates have in them. Fruits, vegetables, beans, and even whole-grain bread and pasta have fiber, phytochemicals, and micronutrients that are part of a healthy diet. Processed carbs like Pop-Tarts provide very little nutritional value beyond their high dosage of carbohydrates. Carbs Are Best in Moderation

It can be easy to get too many calories or sugar from non-natural sources. High sugar and high caloric diets can lead to weight gain, obesity, and other cardiovascular diseases. In fact, some research studies have shown evidence that high sugar diets can lead to higher cholesterol and cancer metastasis.

On the other hand, extremely low-carb diets have their own dangers. A diet with no carbs often lacks those important micronutrients and fiber that makes for a healthy body. Additionally, most low carb diets contain more meats and fats, and there are plenty of potential health complications that can come from high meat and high-fat diets.

The rule of thumb is for carbohydrates to make up 40-60% of your daily caloric intake. But Thunder says worry less about the number of carbohydrates you're consuming daily. Instead, focus on the type of carbs you are eating and the rest should figure itself out.

The simple rule is to "live on the fringe" when shopping. In the grocery store, most carbs on the outside edges of the store will be better for you than the refined carbs from the snacks and candy aisles in the middle. Odds and Ends

We broke 1000 likes on our Facebook page. Our community is growing and we want to thank all of our listeners for being a part of it. If you like the show and how we approach the topic of health, please share it with someone you think may appreciate it.

The Who Cares About Men's Health 5K has been moved to June 20. We encourage anyone who wants to join this virtual race and show support for Mitch as he gets closer to his goal of going from couch to 5K. The virtual race can be completed any way you'd like, whether it be running, biking, walking, skipping, whatever you can do to get in your physical activity that day. Stay tuned for our updates for the event.

This week you can visit our Facebook to get your 5k race bib. Download and print the file so you're ready for race day. Take a photo of yourself in the bib and post them to the Who Cares Facebook page or using the hashtag #WCAMH5k to show your support. Just Going to Leave This Here

With all these Zoom meetings, Scot finds himself looking at himself a lot more often. It's making him pretty self-conscious about his posture

Troy is dealing with a new kind of goatee that has been bubbling up with his new constant use of face masks at the hospital. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

New York City has been one of the hardest-hit communities in the United States during the pandemic. Doctors from around the world have been volunteering to travel to New York and help out where they can. Pulmonologist Dr. Scott Aberegg from University of Utah Health has just returned home from his voluntary tour in one of Manhattan's intensive care units battling COVID-19 on the frontlines.

"When somebody says they need help, I just go help them," says Dr. Aberegg. He volunteered despite the fear that comes from knowing the high rate of infection facing doctors treating patients suffering from coronavirus.

Dr. Aberegg explains what the situation is like in New York City. From the eeriness of empty streets to the varying degrees of chaos healthcare institutions are facing. He shares his perspective and gratitude for the extraordinary efforts being made from everyone helping out on the frontlines: from the newly retrained ICU nurses to the construction workers making building adaptations necessary to meet the demand and save lives.

In this episode, learn the reality of what the doctors in New York are facing and the bright successes they have achieved. The Secret to Resilience is a Tell Yourself a Good Story

Why do some people seem to recover from adversity better than others? Scot shares an article from Brad Stulberg that claims resilience lies in how we frame events and incorporate those into the story of who we are. Housekeeping

We are nearing 1,000 Facebook followers. Scot and Troy encourage current members to reach out to a friend and encourage them to join the community of men who care about their health. If you have an episode a friend might like, encourage them to subscribe to the podcast at WhoCaresMensHealth.com.

The Who Cares About Men's Health MidMay 5K has been moved to June 12. We encourage anyone who wants to join this virtual race and show support for Mitch as he gets closer to his goal of going from couch to 5K. Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Scot tells us how he responds when he ends up with too much shampoo in his hand. Troy tells a story about why he makes a better ER doc than a mechanic. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Scot received two at home genetics testing kits last Christmas. He wanted to share his second test, but producer Mitch had already taken one, and Troy was adamantly against taking the test. He decided to give away his second test to one of our listeners. Seemed simple, but over the past month the Who Cares guys have been looking deeper into the realities of consumer genetic testing. What they've found is worth talking about.

The winner of the competition is listener Matt. Matt is a father with one young daughter and a son on the way. Matt wanted to take the test because he was curious about his genetic predisposition of certain health conditions and the likelihood of passing them on to his kids.

Karin Dent is a certified and licensed genetic counselor at the University of Utah. We brought Karin on to discuss with Matt the realities of consumer genetic testing and have a conversation about whether or not he still wanted to take the test. You Cannot "Un-know" Your Genetics

The first question we asked Matt was whether or not he had read the terms of service for the genetic test. He had not. It was important to share one term that many people don't think about when it comes to their genetics:

Once you obtain genetic information, the knowledge is irrevocable. You should not assume that any information we may be able to provide you whether now or as genetic research advances will be welcome or positive. You may learn information about yourself you do not anticipate. This information may evoke strong emotions and has the potential to alter your life and worldview.

According to Karin, this is something a person should think about taking the test. The goal of genetic counselors is to help people understand the medical, familial and psychosocial implications of genetic data and how it can impact their health and overall well-being.

She explains to her clients they can't "unknow something." Once you learn you may be genetically predisposed to a health condition, you will always know that bit of information. It may change your life in ways you don't realize.

Karin says as a patient and consumer, you have the right to not know something just as much as you have the right to information about yourself. A DNA Test May Not Provide the Answers You Seek

The main purpose of genetic counseling is to make sure the patient is fully aware of the limitations, benefits and risks associated with genetic testing. Many people are like Matt, and looking for a potential genetic predisposition they may have. Unfortunately, genetic tests today don't test for every single condition.

Karin suggests that if a person is wondering if there is a specific genetic condition you are curious about, make sure the test you are taking actually provides results for that condition. Tests may be limited in the diseases and conditions they test for. No test on the market covers everything. Additionally, most tests available will only provide results for a small subsection of known genetic factors that may contribute to developing a condition. Your DNA is Not Your Destiny

Matt is specifically curious about conditions like Parkinson's disease as well as a predisposition to obesity and diabetes.

Most conditions these at-home genetics kits report on are complex conditions that form in adulthood. While there may be a research backed genetic predisposition for these conditions, lifestyle and environmental factors play a large role in whether or not a person will develop the condition.

"[The test] gives you an assessment," says Karin, "but it isn't a black and white result."

Despite how these tests are marketed, there is more involved in the development of a condition like obesity.. While a limited set of genes may suggest a predisposition, the diet and lifestyle of a person likely plays a bigger role in whether or not a person becomes overweight.

"One thing I like to tell everyone I meet with, patients, clients friends, is that your genetics is not your destiny." says Karin "Even if this came back and said you have an increased risk or there's an increased association with obesity based on the genetic factors that you have, remember, that is only a small subset of the genetic contributions we know currently that contribute to obesity."

There's a limitation on the information genetics test can provide. The results are not - and should not - guide your healthcare plan. These test results should not replace routine healthcare screenings. Just because your genetic results say you have a reduced chance of developing prostate cancer, that doesn't mean you should stop getting your screenings.

As such, some professionals have begun to refer to direct-to-consumer genetic testing as "recreational genomics." Meaning, the results of the test may be interesting, but shouldn't guide how you approach your health. You Are Ultimately Testing Your Whole Family

After getting your genetics results, you may be faced with not only a personal dilemma but an ethical one as well. If you found out you have an increased risk of a certain cancer, that can have a huge impact on your relatives too.

"When you take a test, you're testing a family," says Karin.

It's rare that a genetics test will find something that only impacts one person. You share much of the same genes as your parents, siblings, and children. The results you receive may be present in others. Some members of the family might not want to know. On the other hand, if you find something is there an obligation to tell the rest of the family? It's important to consider what you are willing to share with these people, and how it will impact them

Matt has had discussions with his wife about how this information may impact their family. She might have to deal with his genetic results as a wife, and as the mother of their kids. The two of them have discussed how they would approach those topics as a family. He is also considering how he will share his results with his brother. There Currently Isn't a "Professional" Option

Direct to consumer testing is unique in the genetics world because it is a test that targets healthy people. These tests are often marketed as a way to keep healthy people healthy by giving them knowledge about themselves so they can take the steps necessary to prevent different health conditions.

Clinical genetic testing isn't typically for "healthy" people. Clinical testing is used to find the cause of a severe health condition or birth defect already present in a patient. There currently isn't a readily available clinical test for healthy people who are merely curious about their genes.

There are "adult healthy screens" available in some clinical settings, but these are often very specific tests that are screening for specific conditions for rare circumstances.

With this in mind, genetic counselors do not typically suggest getting an at home test due to the limitations of the information these tests can provide. Consumer genetics testing companies are ultimately targeting you as a consumer, not a patient. There Is No Rush to Get Tested Today

Karin personally refuses to take an at-home genetics test despite her genealogically minded father's urging. For Karin, she feels there are too many limitations in the testing right now and the information it may provide is not of any value to her.

"[A direct-to-consumer genetics test] is not going to tell you anything that will change your life in a positive way," says Karin. She has met with people that have regretted what they have learned from these tests. They feel that it has changed a part of their life that they can't get back. There's a time before they learn something, a time after.

With that in mind, Karin explains that there should be no rush to go and get your DNA tested today. Unlike a lab value, your genes don't change. You will have the same genes five, ten, fifteen years from today. As genetic research advances there may come a time when the results given by genetics testing will be more valuable - and perhaps cheaper. There's no reason you can't wait to get the test later in your life. Will Matt and Scot Take the Test?

After all of this discussion with a professional, it comes down to this: Will they still take the test?

Matt still wants to take the test. He has spent a lot of time considering the realities of this kind of testing. He understands the limitations. He understands he can't unknow his results. He knows his test will impact not just him, but his whole family.

But for Matt, he reasons that he's still young. Knowing his genetics may be able to help him better understand steps he can take moving forward in his own life. He's thought about what he would do with the information and his kids. He's making an informed decision about his genetics, and that's what Karin supports.

After spending the last few months considering it, Scot has decided he isn't going to take the test. For him, he was moved by Karin's discussion of not being able to "unknow" something. He works hard to live a healthy life. He has a good understanding of his family history. He feels that there is nothing the test will tell him today that would positively impact his life.

Scot may consider taking the test in the future, but he recognizes that there's no pressure to take the test today just because it's trendy. Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Scot challenges Troy to guess what's wrong with his ear and Troy hates shaving so much he jokingly considers laser hair removal. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Dr. John Barrett is a family physician and the Executive Medical Director of the Community Physician Group for University of Utah Health. He reached his own health turning point over a decade ago.

Dr. Barrett found himself giving in to the anger and frustration that comes with being a physician. Like many men, this stress and frustration was actually a sign of depression. He was able to identify the symptoms in himself and seek help.

After reaching out to loved ones and working with professionals, Dr. Barrett was able to work through his mental disorder. It took over a year of talk therapy and medication to get his mental health back to a place where he could thrive.

"Down south I was what we would call 'a mess,'" says Barrett.

These days, Dr. Barrett is always on the lookout for signs of his own mental health. Whenever he notices a warning sign he focuses on self-care, focusing on his physical health, and reaching out to professional help before things get worse.

Like most health concerns, Barrett's mental health is something he's continually working on, but he feels more in control of his own mental health and wellbeing today than he did a decade ago. Telehealth: More Options for Medical Access

Dr. Barrett works with the Telehealth group at University of Utah Health, and he's seen first hand some of the applications emerging technology can have in the healthcare space. But first, what exactly is telemedicine.

Telemedicine is the means of providing healthcare access from a patient to a health professional using digital means like text or video chat through a computer or smartphone.

At University of Utah Health, in-state patients can call in via an app or web portal to speak directly to a general practitioner through a video call. For University of Utah employees and patients with a University of Utah Health insurance plan, these video calls are covered by insurance. For other patients in Utah, there's a flat $49 fee that will be refunded if the call is escalated to an in-person visit. What Can a Doctor Do Over Video Chat?

According to Dr. Barrett, the best way to think of a telehealth video call is like "virtual urgent care." Half of the patients calling in are given advice and counsel about whether or not they need to see a doctor in person. The other half are given a diagnosis of a relatively minor medical condition. And a very small percentage of patients contact telemedicine services with a concern that needs to be escalated to emergency care.

When a physician diagnoses a condition over a virtual visit, they can prescribe medications necessary for treatment. Dr. Barrett shares a story of a woman who was out on a camping trip in the Wasatch Mountains. After suspecting she had a urinary tract infection, she drove her car back down far enough to get cell reception. She was able to call a physician, get a diagnosis, and a prescription for an antibiotic right over the phone.

A large portion of the phone calls the telehealth team receives is from young new parents. When your kid is sick, it can be stressful. It can be difficult to determine if it's an emergency or if you can wait to seek help the following day. A quick video call to a physician can help to diagnose most pediatric concerns and help put a parent's mind to rest.

Other growing telemedicine fields include dermatology, where specialists can diagnose rashes and moles with pictures or videos. New services are also developing ways for people to access mental health services through text and chat. How Can I Access Telemedicine?

For Utahns, you can use the digital health services at University of Utah Health through the MyChart app if available, or visit healthcare.utah.edu/telehealth for more information. ER or Not: Broken Nose

Scot recently came across a skateboarder on campus whose face was covered in blood. There were no signs of a head injury, but the kid had broken his nose. Scot tried to help but he wasn't sure where to send him. Urgent care or ER?

According to Troy, a broken nose is no reason to go to an emergency room or an urgent.

As long as the person with the broken nose has not been knocked out, nor are dealing with a head injury, a broken nose is nothing serious. These days, if a patient comes to the ER with a broken nose, there's not much they can do to treat it. No big tubes of cotton stuck up the nose. No "setting of the broken nose." Nothing.

In most cases of a broken nose, the amount of swelling present limits the options doctors have for any type of treatment. The swelling must go down before any corrective measures can be taken.

Troy suggests that if you have a broken nose, wait a week for the swelling to go down, then go visit an ear, nose, and through (ENT) specialist. They will be able to better assess the damage and create a treatment plan after the swelling has gone down.

There is one caveat to this advice. If you look in the mirror up your nose and there's something on your septum that looks like a grape, you may need to go to the ER. This type of growth is called a nasal septal hematoma. It's essentially a big sac of blood that forms after an injury. When one of these hematomas grows in the nose, it can potentially erode the septum leading to potential structural problems. These hematomas are rare, but need immediate treatment if found. Housekeeping - We Have a Winner!

We announce the winner of the Who Cares About Their DNA Giveaway. For the last 6 weeks the guys at the Who Cares Podcast have been looking into the complicated issue of at-home genetics testing and calling for submissions for people interested in winning one of these kits and the opportunity to be on the show.

Our winner is listener Matt. Matt is thirty years old and he says this about wanting the test:

"I want to know more about my body, based on the things that are out of my control. A genetics test can help me understand what chances I have of developing certain disorders or what ones I could pass on to my children."

We'll be reaching out to Matt to speak with him about the aspects of these tests we've been exploring and have him on the show.

Thank you to everyone who participated! Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Scot has made a serious caffeine mistake. Troy muses about the first dog in space. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

A recent study released by the Harvard Department of Environmental Health claims an association between the number of pushups a person can do and the likelihood of suffering from a cardiovascular event. According to the study, participants were able to do 40 or more pushups were 96% less likely to have cardiovascular disease than participants who could do 10 or less.

With the findings of this study in mind, the guys at Who Cares About Men’s Health wanted to learn how to improve their pushup form and learn the best strategies to increase the amount of pushups they could do. So they brought in an expert.

Dr. Ernie Rimer is a certified strength and conditioning coach and the Director of Sports Science for University of Utah Athletics. He works with the elite athletes on the university sports teams and as such, happens to know a bit about pushups. What Makes a Good Pushup?

According to Ernie, the technique of your pushups is more important than the number you can do. The form is crucial to get the strength benefits of the exercise. Doing fewer pushups with good technique will be more beneficial than doing a lot of pushups with bad form.

In general, there are a few things to keep in mind with your pushup form:

• Keep your body straight during the full movement. One of the biggest benefits of a pushup is that it can work your whole body if done correctly. Make sure your abs and core are engaged in a plank position during the pushup.

• Put your elbows in a neutral position. Elbows should be bending at a “neutral position” or somewhere around 45-degrees from the body. If the elbows are too close or too wide, it can put undue pressure on your joints, especially when you’re first starting strength training.

• Chin Up, Chest to the Ground. To really work your chest and feel that stretch, focus on getting making your chest touch the ground before your chin. Try looking ahead of you rather than down at the ground.

• Don’t let your hips dip. As the body starts to tire, you may find it difficult to keep your hips in a straight line with your body. If your hips touch the ground first, you’re not working your chest. Try engaging your abs more or take a break between sets to make sure you keep proper form and really condition your upper body.

For people who struggle to do even ten pushups, Ernie suggests two strategies to train your body to do more:

1. Start From the Knees
   If your upper body is not yet strong enough to do a high volume of pushups, modify the pushup by placing your knees on the ground. This will reduce the amount of weight your arms are pushing until they’re strong enough to handle your whole body weight.

It’s important to keep the same form as a regular pushup when doing these modified exercises. Make sure to keep your upper body straight, chin up, and don’t let your hips dip.

2. Work Up to Your Goal with Cumulative Sets
   Ernie loves going back to the “Arnold Encyclopedia” when it comes to strength training. If you have a goal in mind of how many pushups you’d like to do, rather than modify the exercise, try breaking your goal into multiple sets.

Say you want to set a goal of 40 pushups in one set. Start by doing as many pushups as you possibly can with good form. Write down the number, and take a break. Once you’ve recovered do another set until failure. Repeat these sets until you reach 40 pushups total. It may take a bit of time, but you’ve worked your body through the same volume of pushups as your goal.

Next time you work on your pushups, review the number of reps and sets, then push yourself to complete the total number of pushups in fewer sets. You’ll eventually find that you’re able to do the full amount of pushups in fewer and fewer sets until one day you’ll be able to do your goal in a single set.

Another thing to consider when starting with strength training is that the “negative portion” of an exercise builds a lot of strength. These “eccentric muscle contractions” can help your muscles as much as the positive movement. If you’re having difficulty completing the exercise, try focusing on just half of the movement to start.

For example, Scot is working to increase the number of pull-ups he can do. He has difficulty pulling himself up, so instead, he will jump up for the first part of the exercise, then slowly lower himself while engaging his muscles. By completing the “negative portion” of the exercise, he’s still building strength and it will eventually help him do the full exercise.

“Remember, you gotta start somewhere,” says Ernie. Don’t push yourself too hard at the expense of good form just to hit a number you think you should be doing. A pushup with bad technique doesn’t build as much strength as a pushup done correctly, and bad form can lead to injury.

You don’t have to do 40 pushups right now to be “healthy.” It’s important to focus on increasing your activity level and getting in the practice of good habits. Start by being a little more active. Start doing however many pushups you can then work up to that magic number of 40. ER or Not: Trauma to Your Testicles

As a man, if you’ve ever been kicked in the groin or racked yourself on your mountain bike, you know it hurts. A lot. But is that testicular trauma something that needs to be seen at an ER.

According to Troy, if you’ve severely injured your testicles, go to the ER.

Don’t go to an urgent care. Don’t wait three to four days to see your primary care doctor. Go to the emergency room.

If your groin hurts and continues to hurt for more than an hour after the initial injury, you may have testicular torsion. Testicular torsion is when the testicle twists in such a way that it cuts off the blood supply to the organ. This is a serious condition.

Without blood supply, you have a six-hour window to get the torsion surgically corrected to save the testicle. The only way to tell if you’re experiencing a torsion is through an ultrasound, which the emergency room will have available.

If you’re experiencing bad pain in your testicles for more than an hour, have difficulty walking due to the pain, or have a large amount of swelling in the area, it may be a torsion. Go to the ER and get it checked. Housekeeping - The 40 Pushup Challenge

Scot and Troy actually did complete the 40 pushup challenge, but it was cut for time in the episode. If you’d like to see the pair push themselves in the studio under the watchful eye of the elite athletic trainer Dr. Ernie Rimer, visit our Facebook. There will be a video there of the challenge

We are still giving away an at-home genetics test to one of our listeners. Stay tuned as we look deeper into the complex issues surrounding these tests and interview a professional genetics counselor about these direct to consumer tests.

If you'd like to participate in the discussion feel free to comment on Facebook or enter to win a chance to win the test and take it with Scot. Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Troy finds that not every person respects the Rules of the Trail while hiking in the great outdoors. Meanwhile, Scot has been experimenting with bird photography and learning it may just be easier to get shots of landscapes. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

One of the primary goals of the Who Cares About Men's Health podcast is to make our listeners aware of potential health threats they may face. For the most part, younger men don't face too many threats to their health, but there is one thing that will suddenly kill a young, healthy person: a pulmonary embolism.

A pulmonary embolism is a blood clot that typically starts in the deep veins in the legs or arms. This blood clot can break free and travel through the body towards the lungs. Once the clot reaches the lungs, the patient can experience extreme chest pain with a high chance of cardiac arrest. What Does a Pulmonary Embolism Feel Like?

Up to one-third of patients with a pulmonary embolism (PE) will die of cardiac arrest before the dangerous clot is identified in a hospital or emergency department. A big reason for the high mortality rate is that the symptoms of PE are typically non-specific until it progresses to an emergency situation.

Patients have described their pulmonary embolisms as feeling like indigestion, a strange calf pain, or even unexplained shortness of breath over a week. All symptoms that could understandably be confused for something more benign.

More severe symptoms of PE may include:

• Sudden onset of breathing issues
• Chronic shortness of breath that appears overnight
• Pain or pressure in the chest
• Dizziness
• Fainting
• Temporary loss of consciousness
• Coughing up blood

According to PE specialist Dr. Stacy Johnson, the problem with these clots is that the symptoms are not only non-specific, but they're also unpredictable. Dr. Johnson has seen patients with relatively mild symptoms, but when the tests come back, the patient has an extremely large clot. On the flip side, some patients with extreme pain have a relatively minor embolism that can be treated with medication. Do Not Wait to Go to the ER if You Suspect a Clot

Again, over one-third of patients with pulmonary embolism don't make it to the hospital in time. Unless it's caught in time by a physician or - in some extreme cases - another person witnesses a patient as they enter cardiac arrest, it's hard to prevent or catch a pulmonary embolism.

"Unfortunately, that's the nature of the disease," says Dr. Johnson.

So what's a patient to do? There are some descriptors of symptoms you can keep on the lookout for:

• A charlie horse that will not go away no matter what you do
• A pulled muscle accompanied by uneven swelling
• An unexplained pressure or pain in your chest

According to Dr. Madsen, f you have any of these symptoms, go get an ultrasound or a CT scan at the ER as soon as possible. Don't wait to schedule it a week or two out.

"It's definitely a killer of young people," says Troy. He explains anecdotally that if a young person comes into the ER experiencing sudden cardiac arrest, pulmonary embolism is the first thing he thinks of.

If these symptoms hit you or a loved one, do not wait to seek treatment. There is No Single Cause for Pulmonary Embolism

Dr. Stacy Johnson explains that pulmonary embolisms can be caused by a long list of potential risk factors including:

• Long, sustained airplane flights
• Undergoing surgery
• Injury
• Cancer
• Diabetes
• Smoking
• Age
• Testosterone supplements

Genetics does play a role in some cases of pulmonary embolism. There has been a lot of research during the 1990s and early 2000s looking into a potential genetic or familial link and risk of forming PE. There are multiple genes and mutations that have been shown to increase a person's chance of forming blood clots. Several of the current at-home genetics tests even screen for some of these mutations.

However, there is no way to apply these genetic findings clinically. Recent studies have identified as many as 100 different genes involved in the clotting cascade process and potential 5,000 mutations that can increase or decrease a person's chance of forming a dangerous clot.

Considering most DNA tests only test for five or fewer of these mutations, it's important to realize that a negative result will only give a false sense of security. Life After Pulmonary Embolism

The life-long repercussions following a PE event are not as bad as it used to be. If you've heard of the terrible "rat-poison" that used to be prescribed, rest assured those days are long behind us.

Physicians stratify the risks of each PE patient, both before and after treatment. They identify the severity of the clot, what level of risk it presented, potential recurring causes, etc. etc. This stratification informs the type of treatment and after-care a patient can expect.

For lower-risk patients, the PE can be treated with a blood thinner medication and sent home either the same day or after a few days of observation in the hospital.

For higher-risk patients, the clot will often be treated immediately through "heroic efforts," including clot-busting medications and/or surgery.

After treatment of the embolism, patients can expect a certain level of after-care depending on the same type of risk assessment they had for treatment.

Patients with a low risk of forming another clot can expect to take blood-thinning medication for just a few months after treatment.

For patients at a high risk of forming a clot again, they can expect to be on long term medication treatment.

Lucky for patients, the blood-thinning medications available today are safer, simpler, and more effective. These medications are taken as a one or two pills a day and don't require the frequent blood work or dietary changes the older medications required. Considering the Realities of At-Home Genetic Testing

Scot is still on the fence about taking the genetics test he got for Christmas. He was originally a little concerned about whether or not he wanted to know about his likelihood of forming particular diseases and what that would mean for his future. But as he does more research into consumer genetics tests he's learning there's a lot more he has to consider before spitting in that cup.

Scot shares with Mitch and Troy a recent Cracked.com article entitled The Horrifying Reality of Consumer Genetics Testing that lists 6 of the lesser-known concerns with at-home genetics testing.

If you're interested in knowing your DNA or engaging with the results, go to our website, Facebook, or use this link to take a short 5 question survey and be entered to win your very own DNA kit. Housekeeping — Mitch's 100 Day Quitversary

It's been one hundred days since producer Mitch started his latest attempt to quit smoking. This is the longest he's gone without smoking and he's committed to making it stick.

Since Episode 26: Trying to Quit for the 7th Time, Mitch went through two more nicotine patch steps downs. He explains that they were both pretty rough and miserable. He suffered from strong cravings, extreme irritability, and physical side effects of withdrawal. But he made it through.

He still experiences craving now and then, so he will occasionally turn to low-dose nicotine gum to help get him through potential stress triggers.

Mitch says he learned that everyone is on their own personal journey. Just because some people had an easier time quitting doesn't mean you've failed. It's important to keep that perspective and judge your own success against the success of others.

He admits that quitting this time was hard, but the light at the end of the tunnel is the piece of mind knowing he is more likely to have a long and healthy life without cigarettes and vaping.

"Yes I still am irritable. Yes I still have cravings," says Mitch, "But I'm taking control of my future and my health and that's what it's all about." Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Troy laments the pains of getting a new smartphone after his old one died, and Scot has been diagnosed with a particularly not-so-manly orthopedic issue. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.