Search for tag: "coronavirus"

Dr. Tarbox:Ho ho ho and happy holidays from Skincast. We at the Skincast crew are going to take a few weeks to celebrate with our families but we hope that you’ll turn back in in the new year to learn again how to take the very best care of the skin you’re in.

Dr. Johnson: L’chaim! Happy holidays, everybody. Enjoy this episode from our archives.

Dr. Tarbox: Hello and welcome to "Skincast," the podcast for people to learn about skincare. I'm Michelle Tarbox. I'm a dermatologist in beautiful sunny Lubbock, Texas. And I'm being joined by . . .

Dr. Johnson: I'm Luke Johnson, dermatologist at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Dr. Tarbox: I like it. Dermatologists are medical doctors who specialize in the care of the skin and of the hair and the nails. We're going to talk about skincare in the COVID era. So, Luke, what do you think is the most important aspect of skincare in this very unusual time we're all living through?

Dr. Johnson: Well, everybody is washing their hands a lot more because of the Coronavirus, which I think is a good idea. But a lot of people have noticed that their poor hands just get so dry and chapped afterwards. We say they have irritant contact dermatitis. Dermatitis, inflammation of the skin, because of contact with an irritant, in this case water. And it's helpful to know what to do if your poor hands get all dry and chapped.

Dr. Tarbox: And that definitely can happen in this day and age when we're all having to clean our hands very frequently. I think now more than ever it's really important to have a good skin care regimen that helps protect the integrity or the intactness of your skin, because our skin is important. It helps to protect us from the world, from bacteria, and viruses, and chemicals, and so we need to take the very best care of it. So what's your favorite moisturizer, Luke?

Dr. Johnson: Well, I love just plain old petroleum jelly. The brand name is Vaseline, but you can buy just the generic brand petroleum jelly. It's great for so many reasons. I have written a small love letter to Vaseline. It doesn't rhyme or anything. But first of all, it's super cheap, especially if you buy the generic version. You can get a big tub of it for about $3. It does a great job moisturizing the skin. So, in dermatology, we talk about transepidermal water loss, the water loss through the skin, and petroleum jelly prevents 99% of it. Also, nobody gets allergic to petroleum jelly. Love it.

Dr. Tarbox: It's easy to find, most people have access to it, and it works very well. Now, I know some people aren't always comfortable using petroleum jelly for various reasons. So, if you're one of those people, and we just can't convince you with our passionate love of Vaseline, we can . . .

Dr. Johnson: It's great.

Dr. Tarbox: It is fantastic. But we can recommend some other things as well. For some patients who don't want to use Vaseline or petroleum jelly, the nut butters may be beneficial. So shea butter can be helpful. Some of my patients have liked a product called Waxelene, which is actually derived from beeswax and is sort of a crunchy granola replacement for Vaseline or petroleum jelly. But the important thing is just to use it regularly.

Dr. Johnson: Waxelene?

Dr. Tarbox: Waxelene. I know. That's what it's called. You can find that usually in health food stores or Whole Foods markets.

Dr. Johnson: What I tell my patients often is that I know Vaseline is not for everybody. It's kind of messy and greasy. So, if you don't like it, use something you like. So just find the thickest, greasiest thing that you kind of like putting on your skin. In general, things that you have to scoop out of a jar are going to be more effective than things that squirt out of a bottle.

Dr. Tarbox: I kind of love that analogy, and that's definitely true. So you want your lotion that you're going to use to moisturize your hands in this unusual time to be more like icing and less like chocolate syrup. So when we are talking about moisturizers, if you're wanting to use something that's more of a cream, there are several over-the-counter products that I think Luke and I can agree on are very helpful to the skin and are very minimally irritating, so they don't have any excess fragrances or harsh preservatives.

Dr. Johnson: Well, if people don't buy into Vaseline, I usually don't have anything specific in mind. But the point of all this is not just to make your hands feel better, though it will. But there is a little bit of concern amongst some dermatologists that if you've developed little cracks in your skin, that could actually be a portal of entry for the Coronavirus. So the Coronavirus likes to attach to certain proteins in order to get into cells and those proteins might be present in those cracks in your hand. We call those fissures. So helping them to heal up is important, and these moisturizers will help that happen.

Dr. Tarbox: Absolutely. Now, a lot of people are using hand soap to wash their hands. Your choice of soap is also very important. Some soaps are going to really strip the natural oils from the skin, and others may be irritating because of fragrance or chemical content. So using a soap that's designed to be gentle is a good choice. What's your favorite?

Dr. Johnson: Well, as far as I can tell, the party line among dermatologists across the world is white Dove bar soap. Everyone seems to really like it.

Dr. Tarbox: I like that one. I also like . . . Vanicream makes a bar soap as well that's very hypoallergenic. Another good product is CeraVe Hydrating Cleanser. This is a cleanser that won't foam. It doesn't have the ingredient that makes soaps foam, which is usually something called sodium lauryl sulfate, which can be a little bit more dehydrating to the skin. But you don't actually need the foam to cleanse. It's just something we associate with cleanliness. So that's a great product as well and it's very gentle.

Dr. Johnson: Though I'll admit at my home I use just random generic liquid soap because my hands don't seem all that sensitive, but I do put moisturizer on them afterward.

Dr. Tarbox: It's a good idea. There's also, of course, hand sanitizer that people are using. And remember that it has to have a certain percentage of alcohol in it for it to be effective against the Coronavirus. Now, alcohol is naturally dehydrating. That's one of the ways that it actually works against enveloped viruses like the coronavirus. But that same property where it can be dehydrating can make it a little bit hard on your skin.

Dr. Johnson: And of course, in general in terms of the Coronavirus, as you'll hear everywhere, if you can avoid touching your face, that's great. In dermatology, we learned that people just touch their faces all the time for no good reason. In fact, I think I touched mine over the past two minutes like five times. So just bear in mind that there could be dirt or other nasty things on your hands that you don't want to put on your face.

Dr. Tarbox: Yeah, I think that it's something that we all have to kind of monitor our subconscious activities with and really try to pay attention to that behavior and stop it before it potentially transmits a virus we really don't want to deal with.

Dr. Johnson: Well, we mentioned moisturizers in general earlier, but this is a special spot where my favorite Vaseline really outperforms. So something nice and greasy will help it heal. Wounds heal best when they're kept moist and greasy. So I've talked to a number of patients who have said, "Won't my wound heal better if I leave it to dry?" And it's interesting because the medical community used to feel that that was the case. But something like 20 years ago, we realized it's not. If it's moist, then the new skin cells can crawl across the surface more easily. So, if you remember hearing, "You should leave your wounds dry for them to heal," that's outdated knowledge. Now, keep them greasy with Vaseline.

Dr. Tarbox: I like to think of it like trying to regrow a dead patch in a yard. So, if you think about where you've got your grass and you want it to grow back over a place where the grass has been lost for some reason or another, is it going to grow better if you have a nice moist soil that's easy for the grass to grow back through? Or is it going to grow best if you have hard, dry dirt?

Dr. Johnson: I do not have a green thumb, but I'm guessing the moist one.

Dr. Tarbox: Exactly. So I think that that's a very important thing now.

Dr. Johnson: Just don't wear a mask.

Dr. Tarbox: Ah, ba-dum.

Dr. Johnson: No, a joke. I mean, I guess if you can avoid wearing a mask because you are staying at home or whatever, that's fine. But masks are pretty important to prevent the spread of the Coronavirus, so they're a necessary evil. Avoiding other stuff that's on your face under the mask, specifically makeup. So I admit I don't wear a lot of makeup.

Dr. Tarbox: What?

Dr. Johnson: But it seems to me that if you are going to be wearing a mask anyway, then why put makeup on the part of your face that's going to be covered? It can exacerbate the problem. It also kind of messes up the masks and makes them harder to reuse if we end up needing to do that.

Dr. Tarbox: I agree. I've actually taken this whole time as a little permission to be a little less involved with my beauty routine. So while I'm paying very good attention to my skin health, and I'm trying to kind of baby that skin and be gentle with it, I'm really not using makeup hardly at all, because what's the point? It's underneath the mask and no one is going to see it. So I don't understand why I would do that anyway.

Dr. Johnson: How do you wash your mask, Michelle? Do you just throw it in the washing machine with everything else?

Dr. Tarbox: The masks that I've had, I've had some that have actually been made by people in my community, who are just wonderful, lovely volunteers. So, in my free time, I actually enjoy participating in community theater. And when this whole outbreak began, the seamstresses and costumers that are a part of the theater made this beautiful effort and sewed all of these fantastic masks out of 100% cotton and then took them to the hospitals and gave them to the doctors and nurses there. And I thought that was a wonderful thing that they did. I found that just washing them like you would wash normal clothes is a very appropriate way to take care of them.

Dr. Johnson: I like that one, and I like the Costco version of it. I don't remember what it's called. Kirkland brand Free and Clear, or something like that.

Dr. Tarbox: I found that the Tide cleansers are a little bit more harsh to the skin, and even their Tide Free and Clear still causes problems for me and some of my patients. So I tend to avoid that one.

Dr. Johnson: Sometimes it's not time to do laundry and I still want to wash my mask. So we've just washed them by hand just with a little bit of laundry detergent on our fingers, or wash them in the kitchen sink and then put them in the dish dryer to dry. That seems to work okay.

Dr. Tarbox: I think that's a great way to do that. And then you also want to make sure that if you are having to wear a mask every day, your skin can get really irritated. There are some adaptations that you can make. Some of the masks tie behind the headset instead of behind the ears. So potentially altering the style of mask you wear day to day might help protect that skin behind your ears. There are also little straps or buttons on headbands to clip behind the head that will hold the ear loops of the mask.

Dr. Johnson: And for anybody out there who's an aspiring dermatology nerd, there are medical, fancy terms for all this stuff. So the medical term for maskne is Acne Mechanica, and it can also occur with anything else that's sort of rubbing or lying on the skin. I know it's seen in military recruits who have to wear backpacks all the time, for example. And then the medical term for your poor sore earlobes after you've been wearing a mask all day is acanthoma fissuratum. There you go. We make up words to sound smarter than we are.

Dr. Tarbox: Science! So, before this outbreak, the most common place that I would see what we call maskne, what we technically call Acne Mechanica, was in my football players who were wearing chin straps and masks because they were playing football. And it being Texas, you see a lot of that.

Dr. Johnson: And the other thing I think is that's helpful to know is if you do get some of the acne stuff onto your mask, one of my favorite over-the-counter products is benzoyl peroxide. It's in a lot of acne treatment products. So look for that particular ingredient. It comes in a lot of different ways. It comes as little spot treatment pads or gels or cleansers. I kind of like it as a cleanser, because I figure you're washing your face anyway, might as well put some medicine in there, but it works fine as a spot treatment if you just have one or two spots.

Dr. Tarbox: It will bleach your towels.

Dr. Johnson: And potentially your clothing.

Dr. Tarbox: And if you have lighter colored hair, it can get your hair.

Dr. Johnson: And I want to agree with everybody that the Coronavirus sucks. I'm sick of it.

Dr. Tarbox: One hundred percent. It is not our favorite thing. If you are treating the acne, you want to be a little bit more gentle than you normally would be. So I wouldn't go for the mega acne control hot lava cream. Use the sensitive skin products right now. Take it a little bit easy on your skin.

Dr. Johnson: Yes, I'm very proud to be part of the University of Utah Department of Dermatology. It's a great place to live, Salt Lake City. It's great place to work. And if you are a super dermatology nerd and are interested in sort of some of the research behind it, Michelle and I have another podcast. It's called "Dermasphere" and it's really intended for dermatologists. Maybe you're a dermatologist. What do I know? But maybe you're just dermatologically curious. If so, you can check out "Dermasphere" on your podcast platform as well.

Dr. Tarbox: Well, we'll be releasing a new episode in two weeks and we hope to see you there. Thank you for learning with us about the skin today here at "Skincast."

Mitch: From University of Utah Health and The Scope Presents, this is Clinical.

I'm Mitch Sears, producer for The Scope Radio, and you're listening to Episode 9 of our series "Unit on the Brink." This is a multi-part story that is told in order. And if you haven't listened to our previous episodes yet, we highly recommend you go back and start with Episode 1 in your podcast app.

"Unit on the Brink" is a story that intimately explores the firsthand experience of medical frontline workers during the coronavirus pandemic. The stories that are shared are raw and occasionally deal with personal trauma. Listener discretion is advised.

For the frontline workers in our story, as the number of COVID patients continued to grow throughout the winter, there were moments where the end of the pandemic seems so very far away. If our visit to the unit on December 10th was any indication, the presence of SARS-CoV-2 had settled into the unit, establishing a new normal that tested the resilience of everyone in the unit.

The extensive safety protocols that had seemed so novel months prior had become second nature. That daily repetition of safety briefings with the rote recitation of COVID diagnosis after COVID diagnosis, the whoosh of PAPR is becoming the background noise of every patient interaction. The threat of infection becoming a gnawing thought in the back of the mind, but much quieter than it had been back in March. Day in, day out. COVID.

Hope it seemed was becoming hard to come by, but on the morning of December 15th, in a large exam room at the university hospital, things began to change. At 11:32 a.m., Utah's very first dose of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine was given to MICU charge nurse Christy Mulder. For those in the room, they describe an electric moment of excitement that seemed to jump from person to person as the needle pierced her arm, and a small round of applause broke out among the few people gathered there.

From the footage and photos of the event, you can see smiles break out on the face of everyone there, even if those smiles were covered by masks. Finally, a glimmer of hope, of protection, of an end to all of this. On this episode, we tell the story of one Christy Mulder, the woman who was the recipient of the very first dose of vaccine in the state of Utah. Her story is a reminder of the need for resources and a support system that every nurse, provider, and family member so needed to draw on in the face of the onslaught of cases.

And how faith, no matter what forms it takes, whether religious or simply the comfort to be found in Utah's landscapes, can provide a source of guidance even in the darkest of times. Hosted by Clinical, and written and reported by Stephen Dark, this is Episode 9 of "Unit On The Brink," "Keeping The Faith."

Stephen: When Christy Mulder graduated from nursing college, she knew she wanted to work in an ICU, having fallen in love with the fast-paced frontline work while a critical care intern at the Huntsman Cancer Institute. She applied to work at the Medical ICU in University Hospital, only need to be asked a question in her initial interview that would come back to haunt her.

Christy: And I remember in my interview, MICU, I remember being asked the question, "How do you cope with pain and suffering? Because you are going to see a lot of death and it's not going to be an easy place to work. So how are you going to cope with that?" And I was 21 when I graduated nursing school, I had no idea. I mean, I didn't even know anything about life, let alone death and pain and suffering.

Stephen: The MICU hired Mulder, and after a break to clear her head hiking with her father and then doing some global health work in Nepal, she started at the fourth floor Medical ICU. Like all newbies, Mulder found her first year on the unit a daunting daily visit, the fire hose that left her beyond exhausted.

Christy: You're running around just trying to keep people alive. And then I think after the first year, it kind of settles in and you're able to process a little bit more.

Stephen: A sense of where she was working became ever clearer that second year.

Christy: Just because, once everything settles in, you can actually open your eyes and process the death and suffering that surrounds you.

Stephen: And with the advent of the COVID 19 pandemic, that pointed, direct question from her interview would gain ever greater urgency and poignancy. It would force her, as it has done all who work there, to draw on resources, on personal strengths she might otherwise never have planned. And in Mulder case, it led her to draw on her spirituality.

To understand Mulder's journey, both as an ICU charge nurse and a person of faith, you have to go back to the roots of where she grew up. Mulder's parents came over from Vietnam. They were refugees, but not in the common sense of urgency you might associate with the boat people. They came years after. First her father, later her mother.

Christy: I mean, in one sense, yes, they came as refugees. My uncle came as a refugee right after the Vietnam War in the '70s, but my parents didn't come until '90s.

Stephen: Not that it wasn't for the want of trying.

Christy: My mom would tell me these amazing stories of when she was a young girl and trying to escape and get out of there. She would sneak out with her friends in the middle of the night and buy her way onto a boat to like leave. And she was unsuccessful. But no, I guess they didn't officially come as refugees, but in a sense, yes, because Vietnam was a terrible place to live when they were there.

Stephen: She grew up in Salt Lake Valley.

Christy: So I was raised in Vietnamese home, Vietnamese culture, which means, my parents were not really . . . they were kind of nominal Buddhists. So my dad grew up Catholic. My mom grew up Buddhist. And I guess a nominal Buddhist would look like a lot of ancestor worship, but just around a certain time of year.

Stephen: According to Mulder, her experience with Vietnamese culture isn't necessarily one that prioritizes warmth and human touch.

Christy: You don't touch each other. You don't . . . My mom tells me she loves me once a year on my birthday. Do I doubt that she loves me? Absolutely not, but that's just like we just don't. Vietnamese people don't share their emotions in any capacity. And it's very much like you just deal with it, you move on.

Stephen: Growing up in Utah, she struggled with the demands of the local culture and her place in it.

Christy: And I'm so ashamed and embarrassed to say this, but I think growing up here, I always wanted to be white. Like all my friends are white. Everybody I know is white. Why am I not white? I don't get it. Why is my family different? Why do I speak a different language? I mean, I didn't learn English until I went to school.

Stephen: At preschool, she confronted the unyieldingly pervasive nature of English beyond the walls of her home.

Christy: I have these like very short vivid memories of speaking Vietnamese to my teachers and had no idea what I was saying obviously. And I remember being so discouraged by that and just feeling like, wow, I feel really out of place here.

Stephen: As she grew older, so she started to carve out a sense of herself in the English language.

Christy: But then, you know, you adapt as most young kids do. I learned English very quickly. I learned cultural social skills very quickly, and then it became less of a problem. And now, I mean, I love that I grew up in a home that is very culturally Vietnamese. And then in a place in a city where it's also very culturally Utah, I don't know, American culture and Vietnamese culture mixed together and I love that. I love that I get to have both of that.

Stephen: As much as she came to know, through her social circles, a sense of Utah's unique religious culture, she nevertheless found far more questions than answers.

Christy: But of course, like growing up in Utah, I was very much exposed to the LDS culture. And so a lot of my friends were Mormon, and I grew up going to all the youth activities with them and hanging out with them. And I really wanted to be Mormon, because I wanted to fit in with that. But I think as I entered into young adult college, I started to question a lot of things and felt like I'm not quite sure I understand this. I just had lots of questions. I was pretty open to all sorts of worldviews and interested in different worldviews.

Stephen: In college, she met a friend who was Christian.

Christy: The biggest thing that stood out to me about her was she had a deep friendship with God that seemed very genuine and very personable. And that was very foreign to me because I was like, whoa. I think in my head, God was always like somebody who was far off, like watching you and telling you to do these things. And then you do these things and then you like earn your way. But this friend, she just, she was very clear that, you know, this is my relationship with God. I don't have to earn my way before him. He loves me just as I am.

Stephen: That friendship was also composed of many conversations about the possibilities of faith.

Christy: I think ultimately I really came to believe that I have nothing to offer God and yet He still loves me and cares for me and desires to know me. And I think that's been freeing, you know, not to have like this expectation to be a certain way or live a certain way or whatever. And He doesn't see us as these people who need to be perfect. It's like if you are broken and if you are needy, like even more so does He want to draw closer to you.

Stephen: It was that understanding, that coming to terms with the messy complexities of life that, in some sense, helped her confront the challenges of caring for COVID-19 ravaged patients. And for her then colleague charge nurse Cat Coe, Mulder's strength in the face of the virus' onslaught, helped her face those same difficulties.

Cat: She definitely turns to her faith consistently to help sort of make sense of and cope with everything that we see. And she . . . I would not consider myself religious, but I do find that talking to her about these things, whether she brings religion into it or not is very helpful.

Stephen: Something in the strength that helps anchor Mulder through the pandemic also helps deepen the bond between the two friends.

Christy: One thing that Cat and I have really grown in our friendship together is to be able to look at the situation we're in and realize like this is hard stuff that we're seeing. We're seeing people die, we're seeing people suffer, and we don't have to put this perfect bubble wrap over it and say that everything is fine because it's not. And that's okay to just take that as it is.

Stephen: Friendship is what nursing is all about, says the MICU's nursing manager, Naydean Reed.

Naydean: That's one of the things that I've noticed, like especially with critical care, but in all nursing, I think. You go through these extremely traumatic events and, you know, the traumas happening to other people, but you you're there witnessing it. You're living through it. You're trying to save their lives. And I think when you go through something like that with somebody, there's an intimacy that forms between you and your coworkers that I can't . . . I mean, I can't even explain it other than to say it's an intimacy and a bond.

Stephen: Nursing creates bonds of strength, of love the last decades, even a lifetime says, Reed.

Naydean: And I have people that I worked with, I don't know, close to 30 years ago that they call me up randomly and say, "Hey, I need this." And you would drop everything and go do it for them, because there's just like this bond that you can't even, I don't know. I can't even explain it, but it is. It's an intimacy that you have with your coworkers when you're trying to save someone's life.

And like these nurses that have been through this for this last year, I definitely see that with them. And I would see it when they would come to my office and just like almost in tears because they're so worried about their coworkers and, you know, "Hey, I talked to this person last night. I don't know if they're going to be okay. Will you please check on them?" And you would see that before, but they just care so deeply for each other now. It's they've been through so much trauma together.

Stephen: Each person reacts to patients suffering in their own way.

Christy: I think a lot of nurses it's easier for them to just not feel that pain. Like we all cope differently. We all respond so differently to these situations. And for some, it's just numbing themselves. They go to work, they do their thing, they leave, they cut it off. And however you cope, that that's how you're going to cope. And I think, over time, I've seen nurses, healthcare workers who are just jaded. And I think if you're jaded, you shouldn't be in the ICU. And that might be a way of coping, but I don't think it's a healthy one.

Stephen: By her second year at the MICU, Mulder's uneasy relationship with the pain and suffering around her was one she managed to push largely to one side.

Christy: I think for a long time I didn't know how to process it. And it was easier to not. It was easier to just not think about it, to just go home from work and just move on with your life.

Stephen: But towards the end of her second year, a really bad flu season hit.

Man: Coughing, sneezing, body aches, and fever are impacting a lot of people in Utah right now.

Man 2: In this country, the flu has reached epidemic proportions. The CDC reported today that the virus is now widespread across the entire continental United States. Twenty children have died. Just over 100 died last flu season.

Man 3: The Utah Department of Health is now saying influenza is on the rise. More than 400 Utahans had been hospitalized because of the flu. Most of them older than 65.

Stephen: A confrontation with death proved unavoidable.

Christy: It felt like every shift I worked there was somebody who died. And that's when it really hit me hard, and I remember like just feeling so low and not really like being able to like process through it very well.

Stephen: At her Salt Lake City church, one Sunday in February 2018, during this deeply troubling time, it seemed as if her pastor was in some way speaking directly to her from a passage from the Book of John.

Christy: It was a sermon on death and suffering essentially, which was everything I was going through in the MICU. And the sermon helped me process through a lot.

Stephen: Mulder found in just two words an answer to her struggles.

Christy: I just remember it so distinctly, a sermon about how Lazarus dies and Jesus feels that weight and that suffering and that pain. And I think, and then he cries. It's like Jesus wept. I think that's the shortest verse in the Bible or something. I don't know. But Jesus wept, and I think that to me, it was like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah. This was not like . . . this is meant to be painful. This is meant to be heavy. We are supposed to cry. We're supposed to be broken over death because it's a painful thing.

Stephen: Two years later, in the early spring of 2020, as COVID-19 hit hard and held onto the lives of MICU staff with ever-growing tenacity, that lesson came back to her.

Christy: And so I think that has played in my head through COVID a lot because I had a feeling, when COVID hit, that I would feel that same kind of heaviness that I felt two years ago. It's different, but I think a similar idea of needing to hold on to this hope.

Stephen: Many of Mulder's colleagues reached out to therapy or embraced nature for support, says Reed.

Naydean: They got really tired. And I think some of them looked to each other a lot, I think. They organized different exercise groups outside of work. They would go on hikes. One of our nurses, Jared, was fantastic with trying to get people together. He'd have them out in his backyard and they'd have cookouts. And he did a really good job. I think they looked to each other.

Stephen: Reed relied on audiobooks to escape into her own little world. But as summer came with it rising rates of infections, she too struggled.

Naydean: But you, my son, Ruben, who you met in the beginning when I'd come home and I'd like to take my shoes off, my husband would bring me a glass of wine. I'd go out on the back porch. I wash down all my stuff, and I would just sit out there and I would just like cry.

And when my son came home from Costa Rica, I overheard Ruben talking to him and he's like, you know, "Mom's different, right?" He's like, "Well, what do you mean?" He's like, "Well, she just comes home from work, and she sits on the patio. And she drinks a glass of wine, and she cries for a little while, and then she comes in and has dinner."

Stephen: And then the virus hit home to her in a way she never would have expected.

Naydean: I had a really close friend take his life in February. And he was at an ER physician, and COVID was just too much for him and he just couldn't do it anymore. And then when that happened, that kind of put me over the edge.

Stephen: One thing was COVID-19's devastating impact on her unit's patients. Another learning that the horrors of the pandemic had cost the life of someone she loved.

Naydean: Yeah, it was just so personal and so close and somebody that I loved and admired so much. And I mean, I think it just brings home that, you know, even though so many people are dying of COVID, there are also have been so many suicides over this last year.

And, you know, I know of the two that affected me personally, but I just think there's a lot. So much mental health, and, you know, it's just, I don't know, just all the isolation and everything. It's been hard to watch.

Stephen: In an article on the website, Kevin MD, a palliative care doctor described the deeply erosive feeling of powerlessness that came from watching his patients die from the virus. The provider wrote, "We are morally injured and unable to reconcile what we have experienced with who we are as healers." Through the suicide of her friend and all that her nurses and she have gone through, Reed understands these words all too well.

Naydean: It's just hard to watch that time and time and time again. And I think that that helplessness of not being able to stop this disease, not being able to do anything for these patients, and just watching so many of them just die in front of you. And I liked how he articulated in the article that like these are good people.

Stephen: That phrase, "moral injury," sounded the depths of the despair that the virus has driven so many to.

Naydean: It makes you question, why you're . . . why am I doing this? Why do I keep coming day after day when I . . . am I even making a difference?

Stephen: Mulder saw her colleagues struggling with those same questions.

Christy: Truthfully, it's just, that has been, I think, more than the death and the pain and the loneliness. The hardest thing for me about all of this is seeing people that I love, like Cat, just go through a really hard time. And it's sweet because we get to go through this hard time together, but that's been a bigger weight for me.

And so I think to see friends feel very depressed and very at their wit's end, that's been the hardest and the best part about all of this, because it's provided for a deep opportunity to grow our friendship and care for each other and love each other well during a hard season.

Stephen: She is more than aware that faith isn't for everyone and that others have different ways in the face of the pandemic of coping, of fortifying themselves, or blocking out what they've been through.

Christy: Some people are going home and numbing themselves with alcohol or TV or video games or whatever they're numbing themselves with. Other people are numbing themselves with, you know, staying busy, whatever that looks like for them outdoors. I think, you know, obviously, the outdoors are amazing. They're beautiful, especially here in Utah.

Stephen: It was in the outdoors that Reed found a measure of comfort after losing her friend.

Naydean: I think there are a lot that rely on nature and getting outdoors. A lot of the staff on their days off, they're down in the desert, they're out in the mountains, and that is their spirituality. That is their escape. I was finally able to get out to the desert about two or three weeks ago. I just went overnight by myself, sat in the dirt, and went for hikes and it's just like so healing.

I mean, I think if I had anything, that would be the closest thing to my religion. And I know, Eli, one of our nurses, he goes every single day off he's down there in the desert. Sam, same thing. He's out doing things. Kirk and Jared and a lot of the nurses climb.

So I think, you know, Christy has her spirituality and I think that for a lot of these nurses, that is their spirituality. However you say it. That's where they go to find their refuge and where they refill their buckets and make it so that they can come back and do it again.

Stephen: Reed drove the two and a half hours to the wedge overlook in Emery County, Utah. She pitched her tent along the ridge of what's called the Little Grand Canyon, a timeless red rock canyon formed by millions of years of erosion by the San Rafael River.

Naydean: Yeah. I just went and went for a hike and built a campfire and listened to my book and drank some whiskey and went to bed and got up the next morning and went for a nice long hike. It was really, really nice. It was very peaceful just to get out there by myself and think.

Stephen: By the end of 2020, as the attrition rate in staff departures at the unit continued to climb, even Mulder started to think about leaving.

Christy: I'm part-time. So instead of working three days a week, I work two days a week. And I think that makes a huge difference. I'm just not there as much.

Yeah. I think when I have friends that a lot of my dear friends have left. Cat resigned recently and she put in her two weeks. So when people you love and respect and care for are starting to be done, naturally you're going to question the same thing.

Stephen: On the days when she felt too exhausted to keep going, her Wisconsin-born husband supported her through prayer.

Christy: He prays for me every morning before I go to work. Sometimes I don't even have the energy or desire to pray. Just like, I'm just like, okay, here we go.

I'm so wrapped up in this like mountain I have to climb up the workday. It's good to have somebody like my husband, who is just like, hey, before you walk out the door, like God help Christy to be a good nurse today. That's all he says. And that's like enough to just remind me that, you know, I desire to be a nurse that's honoring before God with integrity and do what I do with intentionality instead of just this thing that I do.

Stephen: Mid-December, 2020, Reed asked Mulder if she was interested in being the first person in the MICU to receive a dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

Heidi: Light at the end of what has been a very dark tunnel. That's how Utah frontline workers are describing the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine today. Ginna Roe kicks off our team coverage this evening. Ginna.

Ginna: Yeah, Heidi in the last half hour, I actually heard from U of U Health, and they tell me they have vaccinated 80 healthcare workers so far today, and they are still vaccinating right now. Now, that some of these healthcare workers held back tears today. They said they're emotional. They're proud to be getting this vaccine out and to be getting this message out to Utah public.

Christy: It feels like a weight lifted off.

Ginna: Christy Mulder, the first Utahans receive the Pfizer vaccine says she's overwhelmed by what this means.

Christy: As healthcare workers, on one hand, it's, it's an honor to be able to care for our community during this time.

Ginna: For the frontline workers who have been at the heart of this battle today is the beginning to an end.

Stephen: After nine months of the pandemic, the dramatic arrival of the vaccine proved a game-changer for the MICU staff.

Christy: I think the vaccine coming has been a huge morale booster for our unit, a huge ray of hope, and a next step for all of us. Just a pretty clear vision of, okay, this going to end at some point. We're making huge progress towards that, so I think it's been really encouraging for everyone on the unit to have the vaccine.

Stephen: It brought her a measure of fleeting fame. Interviews with media, local and national, and also a curious Utahan honor being drawn by The Salt Lake Tribune's legendary cartoonist, Pat Bagley.

Christy: Honestly, I didn't even know who Pat Bagley was. And then Hatton was like he is very famous. I was like, oh, cool. Like, that's awesome. That's really exciting, but I didn't know who he was before.

Stephen: She didn't feel anything with the first shot, something she attributes to the excitement.

Christy: Lots of cameras. I just like, I think there were more cameras on my second dose. Lots of people like constant photos, several news stations, videos, like it was a pretty big deal. Lots of cameras at the first one too.

As far as getting the vaccine itself, no pain. Like I didn't even feel the needle. I think it was all the adrenaline. I didn't feel the needle at all. Now that we're 25 hours out, like I have a headache. I feel very tired and just achy.

Stephen: That Mulder was first in line didn't come as a surprise to her friend, Cat Coe.

Cat: Christy is universally well-liked on the unit. She is a charge nurse. She's been there for, I don't know, maybe four and a half years, and she has been a huge reason why I have stayed in that job. She's wonderful.

Stephen: Despite the glimmer of hope the vaccine represented, Mulder didn't want to simply rush away from what's happened.

Christy: I think it's still going to be a long road and a lot of recovery from, you know, even if we are on the downhill. I do think that is still important to keep processing. Not like be in a hurry, to blow past everything, you know, but actually take time to process.

That's what I've been really like talking to Cat a lot about was like, hey, you're not at MICU anymore. Like I need like take time to process because you're coming down from heavy, heavy stuff. So don't just blow past it and move on to your next job. Like actually take time to think and reflect on the last year of life and really just your time on MICU as a whole.

Stephen: On May 6th, Mulder completed her last day at the MICU. The following day, she graduated as a family nurse practitioner before heading to Alaska with her husband to go backpacking, along with taking time to simply rest and reflect.

Cat Coe was never far from her thoughts. In part, because she was a reminder of how important processing the past year they spent together really was.

Christy: And I've appreciated my friendship with Cat and a few others in that way of just like being able to confront it and face it. And it's not easy, but I think that's better than, you know, looking forward to something else constantly that you're never really processing what you're going through right now. Or hiding it so deep down and covering it up with so many whatever various coping mechanisms, jokes, laugh, being jadedness. It's just like, I don't think that's as helpful long-term for the PTSD that we may be feeling.

Stephen: Mulder and Cat Coe are bound together by more than simply nursing during a pandemic.

Christy: I mean, Cat has said that to me several times, like, man, I feel like I have this wartime camaraderie with you. And I guess I didn't think about it that way until she said it, but I was like, yeah, that's true.

Stephen: Even though many have left, it's the experience of providing care during the coronavirus pandemic that binds these men and women to each other in a way that few say veterans of wartime conflict can truly understand.

Christy: We have gone through things. I mean, as nurses, we experience things together that normal people don't experience together with their coworkers and colleagues. So there's this pretty . . . just COVID aside, I think there's a pretty profound relationship that nurses can have through their job together. And I love being a nurse and I'm so thankful that I get to be a nurse during COVID, even if it has been really hard. I think it's an honor.

Mitch: Clinical is part of The Scope Presents network and brought to you by University of Utah Health. If you liked what you heard, please be sure to subscribe and share with your friends.

And if you'd like to see images from our visit to the MICU from the extremely talented photographer, Bryan Jones, take a look in the show notes for a link to the "Keep Breathing" multimedia story written by Stephen Dark and designed by Stace Hasegawa.

And to all the nurses, doctors, admins, interpreters, operators, technicians, and all the other hospital employees out there, we know you're listening, and we want to hear from you. Do you have a frontline story, message for us or someone in our story? Feel free to share it at our listener line at 1-601-55SCOPE. Again, that's 1-601-55SCOPE. Or email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Clinical is produced by me, Mitch Sears, and Stephen Dark. Music in this episode by Annie Zhao, "Beneath The Mountain," The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Ian Post, ANBR, and Yehezkel Raz. News clips provided by FOX13 and KUTV.

And of course, our heartfelt thanks to the men and women who have shared their stories with all of us and fight to this very day to keep each and every one of us safe.

Dr. Tarbox: Hello and welcome to "Skincast," the podcast for people to learn about skincare. I'm Michelle Tarbox. I'm a dermatologist in beautiful sunny Lubbock, Texas. And I'm being joined by . . .

Dr. Johnson: I'm Luke Johnson, dermatologist at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Dr. Tarbox: So we're making this podcast to help educate people about how to take the very best care of their skin, and we plan to release an episode every two weeks. On this podcast, we will mention specific skincare products that we have found in our medical opinion to be very helpful and beneficial to our patients. We are not sponsored in any way or supported by any of the manufacturers of these products.

Dr. Johnson: Nope, but we are medical doctors.

Dr. Tarbox: I like it. Dermatologists are medical doctors who specialize in the care of the skin and of the hair and the nails. We're going to talk about skincare in the COVID era. So, Luke, what do you think is the most important aspect of skincare in this very unusual time we're all living through?

Dr. Johnson: Well, everybody is washing their hands a lot more because of the Coronavirus, which I think is a good idea. But a lot of people have noticed that their poor hands just get so dry and chapped afterwards. We say they have irritant contact dermatitis. Dermatitis, inflammation of the skin, because of contact with an irritant, in this case water. And it's helpful to know what to do if your poor hands get all dry and chapped.

Dr. Tarbox: And that definitely can happen in this day and age when we're all having to clean our hands very frequently. I think now more than ever it's really important to have a good skin care regimen that helps protect the integrity or the intactness of your skin, because our skin is important. It helps to protect us from the world, from bacteria, and viruses, and chemicals, and so we need to take the very best care of it. So what's your favorite moisturizer, Luke?

Dr. Johnson: Well, I love just plain old petroleum jelly. The brand name is Vaseline, but you can buy just the generic brand petroleum jelly. It's great for so many reasons. I have written a small love letter to Vaseline. It doesn't rhyme or anything. But first of all, it's super cheap, especially if you buy the generic version. You can get a big tub of it for about $3. It does a great job moisturizing the skin. So, in dermatology, we talk about transepidermal water loss, the water loss through the skin, and petroleum jelly prevents 99% of it. Also, nobody gets allergic to petroleum jelly. Love it.

Dr. Tarbox: It's easy to find, most people have access to it, and it works very well. Now, I know some people aren't always comfortable using petroleum jelly for various reasons. So, if you're one of those people, and we just can't convince you with our passionate love of Vaseline, we can . . .

Dr. Johnson: It's great.

Dr. Tarbox: It is fantastic. But we can recommend some other things as well. For some patients who don't want to use Vaseline or petroleum jelly, the nut butters may be beneficial. So shea butter can be helpful. Some of my patients have liked a product called Waxelene, which is actually derived from beeswax and is sort of a crunchy granola replacement for Vaseline or petroleum jelly. But the important thing is just to use it regularly.

Dr. Johnson: Waxelene?

Dr. Tarbox: Waxelene. I know. That's what it's called. You can find that usually in health food stores or Whole Foods markets.

Dr. Johnson: What I tell my patients often is that I know Vaseline is not for everybody. It's kind of messy and greasy. So, if you don't like it, use something you like. So just find the thickest, greasiest thing that you kind of like putting on your skin. In general, things that you have to scoop out of a jar are going to be more effective than things that squirt out of a bottle.

Dr. Tarbox: I kind of love that analogy, and that's definitely true. So you want your lotion that you're going to use to moisturize your hands in this unusual time to be more like icing and less like chocolate syrup. So when we are talking about moisturizers, if you're wanting to use something that's more of a cream, there are several over-the-counter products that I think Luke and I can agree on are very helpful to the skin and are very minimally irritating, so they don't have any excess fragrances or harsh preservatives.

Dr. Johnson: Well, if people don't buy into Vaseline, I usually don't have anything specific in mind. But the point of all this is not just to make your hands feel better, though it will. But there is a little bit of concern amongst some dermatologists that if you've developed little cracks in your skin, that could actually be a portal of entry for the Coronavirus. So the Coronavirus likes to attach to certain proteins in order to get into cells and those proteins might be present in those cracks in your hand. We call those fissures. So helping them to heal up is important, and these moisturizers will help that happen.

Dr. Tarbox: Absolutely. Now, a lot of people are using hand soap to wash their hands. Your choice of soap is also very important. Some soaps are going to really strip the natural oils from the skin, and others may be irritating because of fragrance or chemical content. So using a soap that's designed to be gentle is a good choice. What's your favorite?

Dr. Johnson: Well, as far as I can tell, the party line among dermatologists across the world is white Dove bar soap. Everyone seems to really like it.

Dr. Tarbox: I like that one. I also like . . . Vanicream makes a bar soap as well that's very hypoallergenic. Another good product is CeraVe Hydrating Cleanser. This is a cleanser that won't foam. It doesn't have the ingredient that makes soaps foam, which is usually something called sodium lauryl sulfate, which can be a little bit more dehydrating to the skin. But you don't actually need the foam to cleanse. It's just something we associate with cleanliness. So that's a great product as well and it's very gentle.

Dr. Johnson: Though I'll admit at my home I use just random generic liquid soap because my hands don't seem all that sensitive, but I do put moisturizer on them afterward.

Dr. Tarbox: It's a good idea. There's also, of course, hand sanitizer that people are using. And remember that it has to have a certain percentage of alcohol in it for it to be effective against the Coronavirus. Now, alcohol is naturally dehydrating. That's one of the ways that it actually works against enveloped viruses like the coronavirus. But that same property where it can be dehydrating can make it a little bit hard on your skin.

Dr. Johnson: And of course, in general in terms of the Coronavirus, as you'll hear everywhere, if you can avoid touching your face, that's great. In dermatology, we learned that people just touch their faces all the time for no good reason. In fact, I think I touched mine over the past two minutes like five times. So just bear in mind that there could be dirt or other nasty things on your hands that you don't want to put on your face.

Dr. Tarbox: Yeah, I think that it's something that we all have to kind of monitor our subconscious activities with and really try to pay attention to that behavior and stop it before it potentially transmits a virus we really don't want to deal with.

Dr. Johnson: Well, we mentioned moisturizers in general earlier, but this is a special spot where my favorite Vaseline really outperforms. So something nice and greasy will help it heal. Wounds heal best when they're kept moist and greasy. So I've talked to a number of patients who have said, "Won't my wound heal better if I leave it to dry?" And it's interesting because the medical community used to feel that that was the case. But something like 20 years ago, we realized it's not. If it's moist, then the new skin cells can crawl across the surface more easily. So, if you remember hearing, "You should leave your wounds dry for them to heal," that's outdated knowledge. Now, keep them greasy with Vaseline.

Dr. Tarbox: I like to think of it like trying to regrow a dead patch in a yard. So, if you think about where you've got your grass and you want it to grow back over a place where the grass has been lost for some reason or another, is it going to grow better if you have a nice moist soil that's easy for the grass to grow back through? Or is it going to grow best if you have hard, dry dirt?

Dr. Johnson: I do not have a green thumb, but I'm guessing the moist one.

Dr. Tarbox: Exactly. So I think that that's a very important thing now.

Dr. Johnson: Just don't wear a mask.

Dr. Tarbox: Ah, ba-dum.

Dr. Johnson: No, a joke. I mean, I guess if you can avoid wearing a mask because you are staying at home or whatever, that's fine. But masks are pretty important to prevent the spread of the Coronavirus, so they're a necessary evil. Avoiding other stuff that's on your face under the mask, specifically makeup. So I admit I don't wear a lot of makeup.

Dr. Tarbox: What?

Dr. Johnson: But it seems to me that if you are going to be wearing a mask anyway, then why put makeup on the part of your face that's going to be covered? It can exacerbate the problem. It also kind of messes up the masks and makes them harder to reuse if we end up needing to do that.

Dr. Tarbox: I agree. I've actually taken this whole time as a little permission to be a little less involved with my beauty routine. So while I'm paying very good attention to my skin health, and I'm trying to kind of baby that skin and be gentle with it, I'm really not using makeup hardly at all, because what's the point? It's underneath the mask and no one is going to see it. So I don't understand why I would do that anyway.

Dr. Johnson: How do you wash your mask, Michelle? Do you just throw it in the washing machine with everything else?

Dr. Tarbox: The masks that I've had, I've had some that have actually been made by people in my community, who are just wonderful, lovely volunteers. So, in my free time, I actually enjoy participating in community theater. And when this whole outbreak began, the seamstresses and costumers that are a part of the theater made this beautiful effort and sewed all of these fantastic masks out of 100% cotton and then took them to the hospitals and gave them to the doctors and nurses there. And I thought that was a wonderful thing that they did. I found that just washing them like you would wash normal clothes is a very appropriate way to take care of them.

Dr. Johnson: I like that one, and I like the Costco version of it. I don't remember what it's called. Kirkland brand Free and Clear, or something like that.

Dr. Tarbox: I found that the Tide cleansers are a little bit more harsh to the skin, and even their Tide Free and Clear still causes problems for me and some of my patients. So I tend to avoid that one.

Dr. Johnson: Sometimes it's not time to do laundry and I still want to wash my mask. So we've just washed them by hand just with a little bit of laundry detergent on our fingers, or wash them in the kitchen sink and then put them in the dish dryer to dry. That seems to work okay.

Dr. Tarbox: I think that's a great way to do that. And then you also want to make sure that if you are having to wear a mask every day, your skin can get really irritated. There are some adaptations that you can make. Some of the masks tie behind the headset instead of behind the ears. So potentially altering the style of mask you wear day to day might help protect that skin behind your ears. There are also little straps or buttons on headbands to clip behind the head that will hold the ear loops of the mask.

Dr. Johnson: And for anybody out there who's an aspiring dermatology nerd, there are medical, fancy terms for all this stuff. So the medical term for maskne is Acne Mechanica, and it can also occur with anything else that's sort of rubbing or lying on the skin. I know it's seen in military recruits who have to wear backpacks all the time, for example. And then the medical term for your poor sore earlobes after you've been wearing a mask all day is acanthoma fissuratum. There you go. We make up words to sound smarter than we are.

Dr. Tarbox: Science! So, before this outbreak, the most common place that I would see what we call maskne, what we technically call Acne Mechanica, was in my football players who were wearing chin straps and masks because they were playing football. And it being Texas, you see a lot of that.

Dr. Johnson: And the other thing I think is that's helpful to know is if you do get some of the acne stuff onto your mask, one of my favorite over-the-counter products is benzoyl peroxide. It's in a lot of acne treatment products. So look for that particular ingredient. It comes in a lot of different ways. It comes as little spot treatment pads or gels or cleansers. I kind of like it as a cleanser, because I figure you're washing your face anyway, might as well put some medicine in there, but it works fine as a spot treatment if you just have one or two spots.

Dr. Tarbox: It will bleach your towels.

Dr. Johnson: And potentially your clothing.

Dr. Tarbox: And if you have lighter colored hair, it can get your hair.

Dr. Johnson: And I want to agree with everybody that the Coronavirus sucks. I'm sick of it.

Dr. Tarbox: One hundred percent. It is not our favorite thing. If you are treating the acne, you want to be a little bit more gentle than you normally would be. So I wouldn't go for the mega acne control hot lava cream. Use the sensitive skin products right now. Take it a little bit easy on your skin.

Dr. Johnson: Yes, I'm very proud to be part of the University of Utah Department of Dermatology. It's a great place to live, Salt Lake City. It's great place to work. And if you are a super dermatology nerd and are interested in sort of some of the research behind it, Michelle and I have another podcast. It's called "Dermasphere" and it's really intended for dermatologists. Maybe you're a dermatologist. What do I know? But maybe you're just dermatologically curious. If so, you can check out "Dermasphere" on your podcast platform as well.

Dr. Tarbox: Well, we'll be releasing a new episode in two weeks and we hope to see you there. Thank you for learning with us about the skin today here at "Skincast."

Mitch: For University of Utah Health and The Scope Presents, this is Clinical.

I'm Mitch Sears, producer for The Scope Radio, and you're listening to Episode 8 of our series "Unit On The Brink." This is a multi-part story that is told in order. And if you haven't listened to our previous episodes yet, we highly recommend you go back and start with Episode 1 in your podcast app.

"Unit On the Brink" is a story that intimately explores the firsthand experience of medical frontline workers during the coronavirus pandemic. The stories that are shared are raw and occasionally deal with personal trauma. Listener discretion is advised.

For nurses and providers working in intensive care, death is something that comes with the vocation. After all, medical workers in ICUs across the nation are tasked with treating the sickest and most severely injured patients, yet the severity of the COVID-19 virus and the safety protocols enacted to contain its spread was testing the emotional limits of even the most battle-hardened veterans in the medical intensive care unit, people like charge nurse Alisha Barker who had served through the H1N1 pandemic of 2009.

Throughout the winter surge, COVID death rates for Utah were increasing. Despite new and refine treatment procedures and protocols showing real promise in improving survivability, the sheer number of new SARS-CoV-2 cases were filling up Utah hospitals with extremely ill patients.

Where Utah had seen a statewide average of 1 to 5 daily deaths between March and August, those rates more than doubled throughout the cold winter months, with a high of 36 Utahns passing from the virus January 26, 2021.

We now return to the morning of December 10, 2020. Shift change in the medical intensive care unit, the frontlines during the winter surge of cases in Utah, to share what it was like for frontline workers that found themselves bidding farewell to more patients than many had ever had to before and how they found the courage and resilience to carry on and maintain hope through the dark winter months.

Presented by Clinical and written and reported by Stephen Dark. This is episode 8, "Saying Goodbye."

Stephen: By 7:40 a.m. that December 10th morning at the University Hospital Medical ICU, the charge nurse had finished going through the roster of patients. Nurses had chosen their patients for the day shift, and all that was left was to send them on their way.

Nurses and healthcare assistants fanned out to talk to the night shift about the patients they were taking over for more detailed insight into how the night had gone. The transfer of care complete, the unit went eerily quiet for a while as nurses busied themselves attending to their patients.

Then, at 10:00 a.m., proning began. That's when sedated patients on ventilators are turned over. Proning helps patients with their breathing because it aids delivery of oxygen to parts of their lungs that aren't otherwise reached when they're on their backs.

But staff knew that as more patients needed to be proned, some more of them were edging closer to not coming back from the brink that COVID-19 had pushed them to.

Being put on a ventilator, after all, was in no way a guarantee that they would survive the virus, but rather a reflection on how much damage the virus had inflicted on their lungs.

As more COVID-19 cases filled up the MICU's roster, staff had to organize into groups to do seemingly endless numbers of exhausting pronings. For larger patients in each of the equipment-crowded rooms, that means three nurses each side, along with the primary nurse or attending provider reading the protocols, and the respiratory therapists, if available, managing the patient's airway.

The physical energy and mental concentration that goes into each half-hour proning, especially when you have to repeat the process at the end of the shift, leaves staff drained.

One shift, charge nurse Alisha Barker recalls it was simply overwhelming in the number of patients who had to be proned.

Alisha: This was a couple of weeks back where it was a hellacious shift and we had a lot of patients to prone or unprone at the beginning of the shift, and then we had to flip the patients back over, like prone them again at the end of the shift. We were just exhausted, and it's 5:30 p.m., 6:00 p.m. We're all a bit delirious by this point, just going from room to room to the next room to prone these patients.

Stephen: As they moved from room to room to room end of shift, the mood was becoming increasingly brittle. Physical, mental, and emotional exhaustion had already exacted so greater toll on Barker's colleagues. She had to find a way to rally the troops to get them through these last pronings.

Alisha: So by the third patient, we're proning and we're all just like almost in tears. We don't want to be doing this anymore. I got the bright idea to start reading the instructions in a different accent, and it completely changed the mood of the room.

And everybody was talking back to me in their own version of the Russian accent that I was doing, and there was no other place in the world that I would have rather been in that moment than in that room with my coworkers, because we turned a very dismal, miserable situation into something that was really, really fun.

Stephen: Caring for a patient who can't communicate because they are sedated with a breathing tube down their throat leads some nurses, like charge nurse Cat Coe, to worry that they are losing sight of who they are caring for because of the very nature of the treatment they are called on to provide.

Cat: I think it's more the nature of the disease makes it pretty impossible for us on the MICU because a lot of them desat if they talk. So that means that basically their blood oxygen levels go dangerously low if they talk or eat or sit up or, God forbid, stand up. So I think it is hard to form relationships with them when some of them really can't talk without desating.

And this is not just with COVID, but I think in the ICU in general, it can be very hard because the patients are so sick that they can't communicate very well. It can be very hard to have any concept of what they are like as a human being outside of the hospital. And I think that that can actually be dangerous for a nurse to stop seeing a patient's humanness. You know what I mean?

Stephen: Nurses facilitating family members by using an iPad to allow them to talk to their sedated, intubated loved one can be one way of getting around relatives not being permitted to visit COVID patients due to safety policies.

But, Coe says, FaceTiming can also open the door to secondary trauma when it comes to being the only physically present witness to someone's death while assisting relatives in saying goodbye virtually.

Cat: Witnessing FaceTime conversations that would normally be a private conversation with families around the patient's bed, we're now facilitating these conversations and oftentimes having to stay in the room to deal with whatever technical difficulties. Or if it's a Zoom meeting, admitting another person to the meeting, or whatever. And we're witnessing these goodbye conversations or the families trying to get the patient to engage in a "Do you want to keep going?" sort of conversation and/or decision.

I think being in earshot of that often these days is just heavy. It's sad. It's so sad to see these families on FaceTime not able to touch their loved one and trying to figure out what is the best thing to do for them.

Stephen: Nurse Megan Diehl has also struggled with the realities of supporting relatives through the process of shifting a patient to comfort care when those relatives can only be present virtually. Helping loved ones say goodbye online, she says, as difficult as it is for them, is uniquely challenging for nurses who have to attend to facilitate these farewells.

For weeks, while a patient has been sedated and on a ventilator to battle the pulmonary ravages of the virus, they have been reduced to a silent slumbering form. Suddenly, in their last moments of life, as families say goodbye, the nurse learns who the patient was and how much they mattered to their loved one.

Megan: Being on a FaceTime call with a family, they will talk about the type of person that their loved one is, or they'll share stories. And it's different with each patient, but a lot of patients that I've done FaceTime calls with while they're saying goodbye . . . Death takes a little bit of time sometimes, and so we stay there the whole time to be able to give medications and do things and, with FaceTime, make sure the camera is pointed the right direction and things like that.

And they'll sit there and talk through stories about, "Oh, so-and-so, remember when we did this?" or talk about other family members that have also passed, like, "Oh, when you see grandma, you guys can do this together."

Stephen: If a patient up to that point has been a mix of numbers, heart rate, ventilator settings, and drug administration, all the medical information that has to be monitored to assess their health, suddenly all that falls away.

Megan: But it turns it from looking at those things into looking at the person, and it kind of takes all those numbers and things away. So you don't have to worry about any of that other stuff as well, which is part of it. When someone is passing away, you don't care what their heart rate is doing because you don't have to fix it. You don't care about ventilator settings because you're not going to add oxygen. You're not going to intervene and do treatments.

So instead of thinking about what treatments you can do, you don't have to think about that. You just think about whether or not they're comfortable and then you listen to the family. I think it's that, taking away everything else and making them more of a person, that makes it really hard.

You have to displace yourself from it almost because otherwise you can't handle it. Especially if you're in a PAPR, which we usually are. If you cry in a PAPR, you can't get to it. There's no sticking a tissue up underneath it and wiping your tears away. You're just crying, so it's so awkward. And then you don't want the family to see you crying because you're supposed to be strong for them too.

Stephen: Key to these online farewells are the stands on which the iPads rest.

Megan: We have some now that are on little stands and I usually try to get one of those. Or if it's something like that, I try to get one that I'm not holding because if you need to give medications or do anything, you want to have your hands free and not be like, "I'm going to lay you down for a second. Hold on."

So there's a little stand with the wheels on it and it has a bendy arm. And so you set it up and get them to where they can see the patient. And we'll call in a couple of different people, so it's three or four different little boxes on the screen, and then they're talking to their loved one and telling stories about them and telling stories about them.

Stephen: It's a delicate virtual process, trying to bring the family as close to the patient as possible.

Megan: So if the family can't be there, which usually they can't, we'll take the breathing tube out. Everything is turned off. We can put the monitor so where we can see the numbers, but it's not going to beep at us and make noises and everything because you don't want to distract from the moment.

And then I try to get to where they're just looking at their family member, like pretty close to their face. I don't usually do a full body. You want them to be close enough to see them.

Stephen: Relatives sometimes ask a Nurse us to physically connect with their loved one. Hold their hand, comb back a lock of hair from their temple, touch their cheek so they can say goodbye to them in a physical sense, leaving the nurse as the most intimate witness to their relative's departure.

Megan: It's things like that. The family will ask you to do things because they can't. And so you kind of have to step in and be there if that's what they want from you. Other people will just talk and you just tell them . . . you walk them through the steps of what's going to happen, how things are going to go. I always tell them, "If you think they look uncomfortable, let me know. We can give more medication."

Stephen: In such an intimate, painful space, a nurse finds herself a spectator to a farewell that feels almost unbearable.

Megan: It just breaks your heart to see these people. It's just us. It's a nurse there and then their family talking to them, which is better than nothing, but I can't imagine saying goodbye over a FaceTime call, being so far away or giving that to someone else to be there while my loved one died.

Stephen: In the face of so much trauma and so many patients' deaths, many nurses have found themselves for the first time seeking help. Whether that has meant connecting with the University of Utah's Resiliency Center or an independent therapist, Barker stresses how important being straight with yourself and others about your mental health needs has been during the pandemic.

Alisha: It's more so how are we dealing with the day-to-day? How are we getting through each day? And I will have some thoughts about that. How am I going to be when this is all over? I don't think there's anything wrong with needing to seek help from outside sources, whether that's therapy or medications or a combination of different resources. I think there's absolutely no shame.

And I think that one of the positives of this is that mental health will be more accepted and regarded and there will hopefully be less shame with people having mental health issues, being open about them, and dealing with them.

Some of the most meaningful conversations that I've had with my coworkers lately have been about being honest about how we're really feeling and how we're doing and how we're coping. And I feel like it benefits everybody when you are honest about how you're really doing and the things that you are doing to help cope with it.

Stephen: Simply through the process of reaching out for advice, for help, for sounding boards to answer her own doubts, Diehl found colleagues in the same troubled place as her.

Megan: I don't know. You have to step back and analyze yourself more than you did before. So I came to a point a couple weeks ago where I was like, "Maybe I need to start talking to someone. Maybe I need to start thinking about therapy or thinking about a way to figure out how to organize my emotions and how to deal with some of the stuff that I'm going through."

And I talked to another one of my coworkers about it because she was at that point. I had texted her about something and she had kind of let it out to me that she was not feeling okay emotionally. She told me that she had found someone to talk to that she really liked. And so I've started to try to reach out and find someone to talk to as well.

I reached out to a nurse we used to work with who was really open about going to therapy, and this was pre-COVID. I reached out to her and I was like, "How did you find someone that you felt comfortable talking to?" She gave me a bunch of information and she said, "There have probably been 10 other MICU staff that have reached out to me about this."

Stephen: Those last eight months taught many nurses that the defenses of gallows humor and camaraderie was simply no longer adequate to deal with the added stresses of the pandemic, particularly when it came to witnessing another way of saying farewell to a patient by a loved one that in some senses was even more grueling than FaceTiming, says Cat Coe.

Cat: I think the part that is still really heavy is seeing the families and just seeing them . . . if it's a COVID patient, they can't go in the room. I think it's one now that is allowed to stand outside the room while the patient is passing away, and seeing them have to do that is really heartbreaking.

I often put myself in their shoes and think how hard it would be to stay outside the room and how sad I would be to watch my mother, father, brother, whoever, pass away alone. It's heavy. I think a lot of us are going to therapy right now.

Stephen: One shift when the pandemic surge was pressing down on the MICU, Coe experienced an unfortunate personal record. She accompanied three patients down to the morgue, two of them having died from COVID-19 complications.

Cat: So there were I think two patient transporters, and they were super nice. I mean, they were just like, "Wow, we'll be back, and we'll be back." I don't know. I mean, it's part of the job. We go to the morgue a lot as MICU nurses. We have one of the highest death rates in the hospital, if not the highest, and we're all very familiar with the death packet.

We've had nurses float to us before, like nurses from other units, not familiar with the death packet or haven't had to fill it out in a year and a half or something, and we're all like, "Welcome to MICU."

Stephen: Charge nurse Alisha Barker finds a sense of comfort in the process of escorting a patient on their final journey.

Alisha: It's a very strange journey. I never have gotten used to it in my 13 years of doing this job. There are two transporters who bring a special cart up and we place the patient's body in what's called a post-mortem bag. And we place them on the cart and then we put a sheet over the cart.

So you wouldn't necessarily really know what it was if you were just a lay person walking through the hospital and you saw this cart with a sheet over it being pushed by two people. And then it's followed by the nurse because you've got to go and provide some paperwork and log the patient into the morgue.

Stephen: For Barker, each time she goes to turn away from having brought a patient to this way station before the journey that will lead to their final resting place, she can't quite let go.

Alisha: It's weird. You leave them there, and I always have this hesitation when you leave. Once you do your paperwork, you can leave and the transporters will take care of that patient's body from there. They just will put it in a holding area until the funeral home that the family has selected comes to pick the patient's body up.

And I always have this weird hesitation. It's almost like I'm dropping my kid off to school and I want to stay and look at them through the window or something, or the doorway. There's a weird hesitation there, and you just kind of have to take an inhale and an exhale and release and walk back to the unit.

Stephen: By the beginning of February 2021, like an eternally building tsunami that had finally crushed down onto land only to begin to recede leaving so much damage in its wake, the numbers of new daily infections began to drop along with the numbers of new hospitalizations.

The healthcare system, all its providers and nurses, both ICU and general floor, felt the first signs of pulling back from a brink that at moments had seemed close to, but never quite did, overwhelm it. Not that things would ever be quite the same, including at the MICU where familiar faces had departed or announced their decision to move on.

Charge nurse Cat Coe resigned, her last shift on January 2. She left for a change of pace working at U of U Health's ski injury clinic at the Snowbird Resort. There, she could continue working in critical care, but with the added bonus of backcountry skiing before work and hill laps during her lunch break.

Charge nurse Alisha Barker said she too was leaving in April to pursue her ambition of becoming a nurse anesthetist. If there's one thing that COVID-19 taught her, it's that now is the time to live your dreams.

For those that remain at the MICU, like newly appointed charge nurse Megan Diehl, they look forward to that growing glint of light on the horizon when the pandemic can finally be declared under control.

That December 10 morning, as the safety briefing heralded yet another change of shift, Diehl prepared to wrap up on B50. She considered the impending ramifications of vaccinations both soon and long term, and yet still she managed to joke.

Megan: Maybe. It seems so far away, because they say we're getting a vaccine, but that's only June or July maybe and that's so far away. So I don't know. Maybe eventually we'll be back to floating all over the hospital and complaining about floating instead of complaining about COVID. I don't know.

Stephen: And for some nurses, like 23-year-old Reagan Lowe, who began her career as a nurse in the MICU in May 2020, there are personal celebrations to look forward to. On May 1, 2021, she's getting married at the Highland Gardens in Utah County. Her fiancé is an electrical engineer and he's always careful, she says, to pay attention to how she's coping with work.

Reagan: Sometimes it's kind of hard to describe things the way he . . . like, when he describes his job and the math he has to understand, it goes straight over my head. And it's the same when I'm talking about certain procedures and situations and trying to explain. But also, it's nice to just . . . he's a break from the COVID. A breath of fresh air. It's kind of nice to have someone that just doesn't feel it and see it the same way.

Stephen: Whether it's in Lowe's commitment to her marital future as well as a nurse or Barker's decision to realize her long-held dreams, it's the resilience of the human spirit in the face of adversity that lingers most in the mind after months of talking to nurses at University Hospital's Medical ICU.

But there's a sense in something that charge nurse Barker argues that speaks to nurses, not only at the MICU, not only in University Hospital and so many other clinics and hospitals within The U's system, but indeed nurses across the globe. Even at the lowest points of the pandemic, she says, she and her colleagues were still able to find the strength to go on.

Alisha: Where you can find resilience in the pit of despair, in the bottom of feeling like you absolutely can't go on, and then all of a sudden you're laughing and having a great time, I'm like, "Wow, that's a miracle." That's a miracle of the human spirit, I think. And I hope that my coworkers can recognize that.

Yes, it's very hard and there are things that aren't fair about this and things that will make you angry if you let them, if you think about them and wish that things were being dealt with differently. There are always things we wish that could be different, but we also have the capacity to be extremely resilient in this.

And so, hopefully, people are experiencing their ability to do that and to realize that they're a lot stronger than they thought they were and that we're making it through.

Mitch: Next time on "Unit On The Brink," December 14, a mass vaccination effort in the state begins for frontline workers. Charge nurse Christy Mulder was the first person in Utah to receive the COVID-19 vaccine. We share her story and how the promise of vaccination was providing not only a boost of morale for the medical workers at University Hospital, but a glimmer of hope for a return to normalcy for everyone in the state, whatever form that new normal may take. Join us next time for "Unit On The Brink," Episode 9, "Keeping the Faith."

And if you'd like to see images from our visit to the MICU from the extremely talented photographer Brian Jones, take a look in the show notes for a link to the Keep Breathing multimedia story brought by Stephen Dark and designed by Stace Hasegawa.

Clinical is part of The Scope Presents network and brought to you by University of Utah Health. If you liked what you heard, please be sure to subscribe and share with your friends.

And if you haven't yet, why not give us a rating on Stitcher or Apple Podcasts? Those ratings really help new podcasts like ours and it makes our day to read them.

And to all the nurses, doctors, admins, interpreters, operators, technicians, and all of the other hospital employees out there, we know you're listening and we want to hear from you. Feel free to share at our listener line at 1-601-55SCOPE. Again, that's 1-601-55SCOPE. Or email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Clinical is produced by me, Mitch Sears, and Stephen Dark. Music in this episode by ANBR, Vortex, the Dave Roy Collective, Ian Post, Laurel Violet, and Yehezkel Raz.

And of course, a heartfelt thanks to the men and women who have shared their stories with all of us and fight to this very day to keep each and every one of us safe.

Mitch: From University of Utah Health and The Scope Presents, this is Clinical.

I'm Mitch Sears, producer for The Scope Radio, and you're listening to Episode 7 of our series "Unit on the Brink." This is a multi-part story that is told in order. If you haven't listened to our previous episodes yet, we highly recommend you go back and start with Episode 1 in your podcast app.

Unit on the Brink is a story that intimately explores the firsthand experience of medical frontline workers during the coronavirus pandemic. The stories that are shared are raw and occasionally deal with personal trauma. Listener discretion is advised. This is Part 7 of "Unit on the Brink."

Welcome back to "Unit on the Brink," voices from the COVID frontline. We last spoke with frontline workers at the medical intensive care unit at the end of September 2020. At that point, there was a looming fear of a sharp increase in cases that could potentially overwhelm the state's medical system. The surge.

Back then, case numbers of coronavirus infections and hospitalizations were higher than they had been in the summer, averaging between 1,000 and 1,200 daily cases but at least the numbers seem to be holding steady. Yet just a few weeks after our previous episode ended, the situation started to take a turn.

Male: In Utah, COVID patients flooding ICUs. Doctors say they're now two-thirds full statewide, a few patients away from what they're calling unmanageable.

Female 1: This morning, Utah's doctors are sending an urgent warning. Hospitals are running out of ICU beds.

Female 2: We don't have the ability to continue to provide in unlimited amounts of care.

Female 1: The Utah Hospital Association telling the governor, they're less than two weeks away from having to ration care.

Female 2: If you have a heart attack or you get into trauma and all the beds are full, I mean, if you have a stroke, we can't care for you.

Mitch: On October 22, 2020, the Utah Department of Health reported a record number of hospitalizations for the state, 314, with more than a third of those cases needing critical care.

According to the Department of Health, the state's rising case count of COVID-19 patients was quickly becoming unsustainable. University Hospital was soon forced to reopen B-50, the COVID overflow unit, yet COVID hospitalizations continued to rise.

Throughout November and December, Utah broke one record after another. Two thousand, 3,000, 4,000 new cases a day with a record 5,662 infections on November 22. The surge that healthcare workers had been so anxiously awaiting for all of 2020 had finally arrived.

In December, Stephen Dark, a photographer, and myself were given the rare opportunity to visit the Medical Intensive Care Unit to experience firsthand what conditions in the unit were like during the winter surge. Over the next two episodes, we'll share what was going on in the hearts and minds of frontline workers during the time of ever-increasing pressure in the unit working to persevere against the wave of new patients.

A quick editor's note, you may notice a change in audio quality from our recordings and interviews from inside the unit due to safety protocols and the background noise that comes from a very busy unit as well as the sound of our photographer's equipment. With that all in mind, we now take you back to the University Hospital Medical Intensive Care Unit with Episode 7 here with the COVID.

Stephen: By 7 a.m., more than a dozen nurses and healthcare assistants in scrubs, masks, and protective eyewear were finding their way to the conference room at the medical ICU on the fourth floor of University Hospital for the morning safety briefing.

Amidst the din of caffeinated voices and laughter, they found seats at a long table or stood against the wall all the while looking down the list of current patients in the unit.

Nurse: Okay. Welcome, everyone.

Stephen: The charge nurse who had led the night shift started going through the patient roster stating their diagnosis and a thumbnail sketch with their medical status. Nurses picked their patients. If they worked the day before, they took their patient assignment back for continuity of care. As he went down the list, the charge nurse repeated the same diagnosis.

Nurse: Two, we have COVID on the vent volume control, 70% on [inaudible 00:05:04] is prone. In seven, we have here with COVID is prone and they're on the vent volume control 60%. Nine just came here from the floor with COVID. Three, we have he's here with the COVID. In six, we have he's here with the COVID. In 14, he's got COVID. Fifteen is here with COVID. Yes, 16 is Covid, 18 is here with the COVID.

Stephen: Out of 24 patients that night, 17 had COVID-19 and some were losing the battle.

Nurse: In 10 we have 78-year-old guy and we're just trying to address goals of care. And in 12 we have 70 years old DNR, but intubation is okay and she is walking that line in there. DNR, DNI. We're letting him eat and stuff and kind of moving in a palliative direction.

Stephen: Even as COVID-19's presence seem to weigh ever heavier in the room, the charge nurse still managed to crack a joke.

Nurse: Seventeen I left off his diagnosis. Can anyone guess?

Nurses: COVID

Nurse: Yeah, COVID.

Stephen: The unit was dealing with the aftershocks of Thanksgiving. Utah having achieved notoriety of sorts as ranking one of the highest states for holiday road trips despite nationwide advisories not to travel. And there were still the weeks after Christmas and new year to come with their anticipated further peaks in new infections.

Veteran MICU charge nurse Cat Coe was particularly concerned about how young nurses new to the unit were coping with the onslaught of COVID patients.

Nurse Coe: I can't imagine coming in . . . I think the ones that I worry about the most are the ones who are either new grads or they're fresh from the floor. Like they worked on the floor for a year, and now they're just starting to work on MICU and they're like in their early 20s.

And I just can't imagine coming in to all of this with very little experience and trying to make sense of it all and like being under the impression that this is normal, because like that's what they're training in. They're training in this environment. I don't know. I like if it were me, I would have been real worried about myself.

Stephen: One young nurse was finishing her night shift that December morning. Post-shift May 2020 nursing school graduate Reagan Lowe, who had chosen the MICU to cut her teeth on, was struggling with an even bigger decision, her choice of career.

Nurse Lowe: Sometimes I get overwhelmed. I think part of being a new grad is being kind of scared to show up to work and kind of scared that you'll miss something. Thursdays, where I dread coming. And sometimes I would worry is this going to be my life? Did I choose a career where I'm going to dread every day? Is it going to be a job that I don't want to come to anymore?

And it's hard, especially because I love the people I work with and I hate like feeling that way. So in those moments, I do kind of worry that I'm regretting it, and then I remind myself of all of the opportunities that I have to learn and to grow and to develop skills and interpersonal skills. And I feel really lucky to be here even when it's a terrible day. Even when it sucks to show up, I feel really lucky that I'm able to because I know a lot of people would kill for an ICU job straight out of school.

Stephen: As a certified nursing assistant in the last year of nursing college, Lowe had worked at the MICU in a support capacity for nurses. The MICU nurse would typically care for two patients a shift and often get to know them quite well since MICU patients tended to be there for weeks, if not months.

Lowe on the other hand, as a CNA, might cover up to 8 to 12 patient rooms a shift. So preparing a deceased patient she didn't have a deep connection with or their trip to the morgue was something she had become used to. Being a nurse, however, brought a starkly different perspective.

Nurse Lowe: But as a nurse, you have such a different responsibility and level of interaction with the patients where it is much more involved.

So as a nurse, helping people with death and through death and their families, I wish we could have more family around those situations, but as a nurse, you're there giving them the medications to make them comfortable as they've pass or you're holding their hand as they pass. And it's your patient and you know everything about them. You've built a relationship with them on a deeper level than you typically do as an aide. You kind of help with the process of passing more. You're a lot more involved in the process of passing instead of the process after passing.

I just think I'm lucky to have been a CNA before I was a nurse. Otherwise, I feel like I would have been shell-shocked starting as a nurse and seeing so much death, but it's still hard.

And my friends will kind of ask me like, "Oh, have you seen a dead body?" I'm like, "I've seen dozens. I've touched more than 50 dead bodies. I don't even know how many I have helped clean up." People kind of are shocked by that, and like I work in an ICU at a level one trauma hospital, I see death.

Stephen: As a child, Lowe's parents shared with her the joys and the challenges of nursing. Her father began his career as a nurse before later going to medical school, becoming an anesthesiologist.

Nurse Lowe: He was initially a nurse and worked as a nurse while he was in med school, and I think I was born while he was still a nurse. And I think a lot of it too was my mom telling me, "Oh, your dad's helping the people. Your dad's like, maybe dad's not home, but it's because he's taking care of people so that they can go home to their families."

Stephen: Like so many of her colleagues, Lowe came to nursing out of a desire to help others.

Nurse Lowe: And I like healthcare. I like taking care of people. I like being able to help people. And then my senior year of high school, I got my CNA while I was doing classes and loved that. I loved it so much. Just like watching what the nurses did. I want to do that. I want to help people. I want to make a difference in people's lives.

And so it was kind of just like all these steps that just kind of fell into place that allowed me to do it, and like all the steps felt right and I liked it so here I am.

Stephen: She had to learn extremely fast how to negotiate that line between compassion and self-care that all nurses learn. Although only those who started from the spring of 2020 onwards did so under the increasingly unrelenting weight at the pandemic.

Nurse Lowe: It's kind of like this tight rope where you're trying to balance like on this one little spot of the perfect amount of compassion and the perfect amount of personal protection.

You teeter one side and you care too much and you're over-involved and you teeter the other side and you seem cold. You worry that your patient thinks you don't care. You have to try to figure out how do I make them comfortable and let them know that I'm here without it coming home with me every night and it's hard. Sorry, sorry.

Stephen: No, you're fine. Take your . . .

Nurse Lowe: I'm sorry. Just a little tired.

Stephen: It's just the most exhausting time . . .

Nurse Lowe: It is.

Stephen: . . . in your life, I would imagine.

Nurse Lowe: Mm-hmm. And especially being a new grad and it's already an overwhelming job and you're learning so much and just watching people suffer is something that's really hard for me, but it also motivates me to be a better nurse to minimize that suffering.

Because we get patients that like remind me of like my family or remind me of a friend I know or who are young and or who are disabled and don't understand what's happening or don't know what COVID even is. And you're trying to tell them to lay on their stomach so that they breathe better and it doesn't make any sense to them, but you're not supposed to identify with that.

And they teach us in nursing school that you're not supposed to really focus on those patients. You're not supposed to focus on that resemblance because it hits too close to home and it can cause issues and can muddy the waters of patient and nurse relationship.

Stephen: That doesn't get in the way though of the many small acts of compassion that a nurse like Lowe brings to her vocation. In the mid-evening hours of December 9, Lowe had cared for a young man with a developmental disability.

Nurse Lowe: I feel like the ones that are difficult are often very rewarding. Not that he was difficult to care for, it's difficult for me to understand exactly what he's going through. Such an easy and kind and patient patient. And just putting myself in his shoes and being like, what are the things that are probably going to scare him the most? How can I prepare him for the things that are going to scare him? How can I mitigate the fear? How can I make him comfortable? I ended up finding . . . he wanted to watch this cartoon. And luckily our burn unit had it because they have pediatric patients, so I got the movie for him and played it for him. And he likes "My Little Pony."

Music: My little pony, my little pony.

Nurse Lowe: So I found the movie for him, and I figured out in a different room how to play it just because I didn't want to just get it in there and not be able to play it because I felt like that would be so mean. And so I figured out how to play this movie for him and then just, even just like the little things. He just wanted a bite of a graham cracker, so he had a bite of a graham cracker and watched this cartoon and went to bed. And that's all he needed was just a little bit of handholding and a little bit of patience and somebody to figure out what would make him comfortable.

Stephen: This small gesture of concern brought the patient joy.

Nurse Lowe: It made him happy. The laugh he gave me when I set it up, he got so excited and he let out this little squeal. It makes it all worth it.

Stephen: So he has COVID. Is that right?

Nurse Lowe: He does.

Stephen: And kind where is he in sort of the spectrum of sort of the evolution of the disease?

Nurse Lowe: So he's on the high-flow nasal cannula. So it's kind of other than our BiPAP and CPAP kind of the last line before we would need to intubate him. And our provider was saying really just don't want to because that would be traumatizing for him physically and emotionally because he wouldn't understand what we were doing.

So he was just kind of on that edge where we need him to lay on his stomach so it'll help his oxygen, but if he doesn't tolerate it and he gets worse, he might need to be intubated and have a breathing tube.

But for some of these patients that can be a death sentence or they're just on it for so long that they don't really get better or they have permanent deficits. And so it's this fine line of how long do we wait before we do these interventions? Are they going to help long term, or are they just going to be a death sentence?

Stephen: Charge nurse Robby Thurman joined the MICU in 2013. As with Lowe, the medical ICU was his first full-time nursing position. Spend some time at the MICU and it's quickly apparent, Thurman is one of the gang exchanging repertoire with other nurses, always upbeat and optimistic and clearly passionate about where he works.

Nurse Thurman: I get to be intellectually challenged all the time. I'm always learning things. I always have the ability to go and learn new things every day, you know, for a long time, still try to, you know, make a note of like something they learned new, like that day.

There's so much to know, and I really enjoy being able to spend more time with my patients even though like they can't talk all the time. I still like enjoy being able to spend time with them, just care for them. Taking care of them and turning them and giving them their baths and the camaraderie like the family that we have as a staff is great.

I don't know how we've been able to do it. We have such a high turnover with staff. We've always had people leaving for school and other things, but I feel like the list of phenomenal nurses that I've worked with just keeps getting longer because everyone's leaving but we still keep getting these great nurses that come here and become part of our family and I don't know.

Stephen: But even his buoyant, lively personality and his love for his profession was facing increasing challenges from the grinding weight of the pandemic.

Nurse Thurman: I don't know. It doesn't feel like these are some of the harder things that I've had to do. I get my, you know, in my weekend and I'm, you know, physically drained, I'm mentally exhausted, and I just don't have any more emotions to give sometimes, you know, where it's trying to provide for these patients physically.

When families are there, it's great because I don't become responsible for almost like caring for them emotionally, you know, because they have their family members and their loved ones that they are there with. But I feel like a lot of times we as nurses get tasked with caring for patients emotionally now too where we become the ones that they can talk to.

And it's like I've held more people's hand dying than I've ever wanted to. I don't like being the person in the room when patients die. If their family's there, I can do it, but I've done it more times than I have ever even thought I would have to, you know, because nobody deserves to die alone.

Stephen: Caring for patients who are approaching death, especially when they are younger than you expect, can undermine even battle hardy veterans like nurse Megan Diehl. By early December, she felt angry and frustrated at the isolation her unit was experiencing.

Nurse Diehl: And I feel like the general public is sick of COVID. I mean, we're all sick of COVID. Everyone is. People want to get together with their families for Thanksgiving and for Christmas and all of this, but when it comes down to it, it's not gone yet and it's more of a threat now I feel than it was before.

And I don't know if I just hit a point where it changed for me, but I feel more stressed about my family and about people that I care about now getting COVID than I did six months ago, which is weird. I don't know why.

Stephen: The spiking case numbers, the pressure on the number of available beds for coronavirus patients, the lack of attention among some members of the public to protecting themselves and each other from contagion, it all added up for nurses struggling to cope with the surge in COVID-19 patients. And then sometimes just like for nurse Lowe, a patient's death will strike too close to home.

Nurse Lowe: I had a patient a couple of weeks ago that was younger than my parents and had no other health problems and, you know, he was overweight and that was it. And he was younger than my parents. And I think I don't know what happened, I don't know how it happened, but I looked at him and it was like, I looked at how sick he was. I'm like, I saw for the first time I think I saw like this could be my dad and I think that's kind of what broke me.

And I don't know why it took so long, but it was awful. I just remember thinking like this person's five years younger than my parents, less of a health history than my parents, and is here and is just so sick just from COVID.

Stephen: The patient who had so underscored for her the vulnerability of her mother and father unexpectedly died after she had completed a shift. When she returned to the unit, she learned of his demise. She reached out to her parents.

Nurse Lowe: I texted them the next morning and be like, yeah, that guy that I told you about, he died. I don't know if that's what triggered me into this like less sense of security and this like constant anxiety with my family, but it was really hard. It was really rough. And I think a lot of us have, you know, if not that patient, there's another one where you have an experience and it just like changes. It changes you.

Stephen: Part of the wearing, grinding nature of the pandemic for MICU nurses Coe explains was that they never got to see patients recover. When nurses and providers talk about saves, that's to some degree what they mean, namely, patients who they've managed to turn away from the brink of becoming another SARS-CoV-2 casualty.

As soon as attendings felt a patient was well enough, they were quickly moved off the unit to go to B-50 or elsewhere in the hospital to make space for new cases.

Nurse Coe: The saves are happening, they just, unfortunately, have been happening less on MICU and had been moving to B-50. Now that has changed just very recently, just in the last like 10 days. B-50 is operating as more of a super sick ICU patient unit. They are taking patients that have to be proned still.

And when a patient's being proned, they are still very tenuous. The outlook is very much in question if they're still getting proned. That might start to level the playing field a little bit as far as like if we can keep some of our successes on MICU. Unfortunately, I don't think . . . I think that we will still have to push those less acute patients out somewhere because MICU is the epicenter of all of this and the sickest patients probably need to be there so that they're closest to our doctors.

Stephen: Which begged a question, where do you find joy when there seemingly is none to be had? For Coe, it was on B-50.

Nurse Coe: An example of like an aha moment seeing a patient get better, that made me feel like, "Wow, I am doing something that's really good." Unfortunately, I'm just not seeing that on MICU enough. I had a patient who had been on MICU very sick for at least a month. She had finally made her way up to B-50.

She was trached. She was being fed through a feeding tube through her nose, and patients get trached typically after they've been intubated for a long time to kind of preserve their trachea somewhat, and it also gives them a chance to like start moving their mouth again. And anyway, her trache had been downsized several times, so we're kind of moving in the direction of the trache being removed completely.

And she was at the point where the trache was small enough that she could put what we call a speaking valve on it and use that to start to make words again. And we're talking for like the first time in like five or six weeks and start using her mouth to chew ice chips again.

Stephen: That may not sound like much, but for a COVID-19 patient who's starting down the road to recovery, chewing ice chips is huge. A speech therapist came in while Coe was at the patient's bedside to teach her how to use the speaking valve.

The patient called a much-loved relative and Coe got to listen into the call. While the relative was overwhelmed, the patient was too exhausted to muster any real signs of emotion.

Nurse Coe: She wasn't very emotional. She was just trying to make words but hearing that family member on the other end of the line and her reaction to hearing the patient's voice for the first time in over a month and like that indication that she was getting better was huge. And I think I really needed that as a nurse. Her family obviously really needed that, but I also really needed that to like kind of remind me that some of these people are getting better.

Stephen: As the year headed towards the Christmas festivities, the growing pressure on the unit came not only from the medical needs of the COVID-19 patients but also from the MICU's role as a place of last medical resort. Robby Thurman saw firsthand of exhaustion from COVID-19 care, then coupled with other MICU functions only added the cumulative stress and exhaustion of his colleagues, including physicians.

Nurse Thurman: And our poor doctor who was on overnight, he was on service that week, and so Sunday day he was up all day doing his job. And then, you know, sometimes, you know, most times when they're on at nights, they can, you know, do their thing, take a nap, wake up to phone calls. This poor guy never got to lay down. They took like seven rapid responses from the floor. So like the nurse feels like they're unsafe on the floor, but they're not coding it. So they still have a heartbeat, so breathing on their own, but there's like, oh no.

So they call rapid response. We took seven of those, and I think they had a couple other admissions from other places. And then, so he was up all night and then up all day. Like we're just having more of those experiences where it's like I don't know how much more we can do.

We had beds, but it's like how much staff. I think that's the thing is, you know, a bed's great when we can throw them, we fill them all up but we're all getting tired. We're all working. I'm used to working overtime. I'll pick up extra so my wife can stay home with the kids so she doesn't have to work outside the home.

So I'm used to the, you know, one or two extra shifts a month and we're all tired. And, you know, we're all going to keep doing it because it's like we're there to care for patients. But I feel like it's like we're all getting a little more, we're all just getting more tired as it goes on.

Stephen: Try as he might, as the winter nights drew in and the yuletide season beckoned, optimism is proving evermore elusive, but still in those moments when it was just him and a patient when he could provide that intimate gesture of concern, of love for his fellow man, he found some glimmer of hope.

Nurse Thurman: I think while it's been harder to be cautiously optimistic, like it's just those little things of, you know, even if it's for a little bit like getting people off their breathing tube so they can have a conversation with their family. We've had a lot of patients where they've just had to be reintubated, but they're having, you know, FaceTime calls at night with family or just spending time in a patient's room, combing out their hair and braiding it. It's those little things that I get to do. I have the privilege of doing.

Mitch: Next time on Unit on the Brink we return to that shift change in the medical ICU in December. We witness what happens when a giant wave of cases finally begins to receive, leaving casualties in its wake. Meanwhile, news of widespread vaccine rollouts begin to show a glimmer of hope that one day the unit may return to normal, whatever normal looks like now.

Female 2: Like they say, we're getting a vaccine, but that's so far away. Maybe eventually we'll be back to floating all over the hospital and complaining about floating instead of complaining about COVID. I don't know.

Mitch: Join us next time for Episode 8, "Trial by Fire." And if you'd like to see images from our visit to the MICU from the extremely talented photographer, Bryan Jones, take a look in the show notes for a link to the "Keep Breathing" multimedia story written by Stephen Dark and designed by Stace Hasegawa.

Clinical is part of The Scope Presents network and brought to you by University of Utah Health. If you liked what you heard, please be sure to subscribe and share with your friends. And if you haven't yet, why not give us a rating on Stitcher or Apple Podcasts? Those ratings really help new podcasts like ours, and it makes our day to read them.

And to all the nurses, doctors, admins, interpreters, operators, technicians, and all the other hospital employees out there, we know you're listening, and we want to hear from you. Feel free to share at our listener line at 1-601-55SCOPE. Again, that's 1-601-55SCOPE. Or email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Clinical is produced by me, Mitch Sears, and Stephen Dark. Music in this episode by Vortex, the David Roy Collective, Ian Post, ANBR, Rousseau Music, and Tristan Barton. Audio news clips from CNBC.

And of course our heartfelt thanks to the men and women who have shared their stories with all of us and fight to this very day to keep each and every one of us safe.

Interviewer: The challenge to provide expanded asymptomatic COVID-19 testing for 62,000 Utah university students, faculty, and staff. The solution is a story about innovation and collaboration, and a group known mainly just to researchers called HSC Cores. Dr. Michael Good, CEO of University of Utah Health, the dean of the University of Utah School of Medicine, and the Senior Vice President of Health Sciences, visited HSC Cores to learn how they made it happen.

Dr. Good, what was the main challenge when it came to making asymptomatic testing more widely available, and how did HSC Cores help solve that problem?

Dr. Good: We started that program last year, with those that lived in our dorm residence but were having trouble getting the capability, enough tests at an affordable cost and was really pleased when, through Dr. Andy Weyrich, our vice president for research, Dr. John Phillips, and other members of our research community pointed out that we do PCR testing in our Core laboratories, that we could probably scale this up. But, also, you know, this innovation starts with this capability in our lab, but it is surrounded by our clinical operations team, who set up a methodology that specimens could be obtained in a very efficient manner. And then our IT teams had to come together, the notifications are automated, people get an email notice back with results typically in somewhere between 4 to 10 hours, almost always same day. And there's a . . . so there's a really neat, and I think, uniquely Utah story there, with related to IT, with related to clinical operations, with related to Core Lab PCR capabilities, are all coming together to offer this great service to our team members throughout the university.

Interviewer: Just a great example of cross-campus collaboration to make more testing happen. But there is also some innovation going on, I understand, at HSC Cores in order to do the number of tests that were needed. Tell me a little bit about that. You saw what this system looks like, and I guess it was pretty incredible.

Dr. Good: First of all, kind of at the heart of this, if you will, is a very clever, it's about a oh, an inch tall, and maybe 3/8 of an inch wide, a very small collection tube that has a orange cap on it. In the little bag with the collection tube is a funnel and a toothpick. When you first see that, you say, "Well, what's that for?" and then later on you say, "That is so amazing."

So, first of all, you take the cap off of the . . . the orange cap of off the collection device, you drop the funnel in, and as the team will tell you, they'd actually like you to drool, rather than spit. We do know that saliva carries the coronavirus. Work by our faculty showed that actually saliva is a reliable source for doing these tests.

So anyway, put the funnel into the little collection tube, and then drool until the one inch or so tube is filled up. Now, this is where the toothpick comes in handy because on occasion you'll get an airlock. Your drool, your saliva will be in the funnel, but it won't make in its way down into the collection device. So you take the toothpick and just kind of help break that airlock and get the saliva into the tube. And that is, kind of, if you will, the clinical operations piece of this on the front. You know, the risk of the shoutout is I'm going to miss a whole bunch of people. But this is Dr. Richard Orlandi and Cameron Wright, a key member of his team, Michael Bronson, Nikki Gilmore. We've got a group of about 8 or 10 people that work on the frontend of this, if you will, the collection.

Interviewer: So then you got to see what happens after you drool in the tube and how it gets processed on the backend. Tell me about that.

Dr. Good: And that's where the Core Lab team really comes to work. Again, a lot of innovation has gone into this. So I believe the number's 96 tubes are loaded into a cartridge, into a rack. Now, they're going to add the reagents that are necessary for the test. But think about it, you got 96, 1-inch tubes, sitting in this rack. So the team went to work, and to help with throughput, actually acquired a decapper, D-E-C-A-P-P-E-R, decapper. So the cartridge goes into the decapping machine where a whole bunch of mechanical hands come down, if you will, and literally unscrew the caps off of these 96 specimens, and then from there, the decapped specimens go in, under a hood, and that's where our Core Lab team goes to work.

Derek was on point, running the bench the day I was there, as he explained about . . . I think they mixed it 10 times, if you will. A micropipetter first put in the reagent and then pulled it in and out of the micropipette 10 times to make sure it was mixed. Back in the decapper, now the recapper, R-E-C-A-P-P-E-R, those caps come back down on the cartridge, the cartridge goes into a heat deactivator, the heat both deactivates, if you will, the virulent properties of the coronavirus. It also deactivates enzymes in our saliva. If we don't deactivate those enzymes, they could potentially degrade the coronavirus that they're trying to detect.

From there, that cartridge with the reagents for the PCR reaction go into the analyzer, and then the machine goes to look for the specific genes that have been identified as being most reliable to detect the coronavirus. If one of those tubes start to show a positive reaction, if they start to detect coronavirus, the instrument knows which sample, and which individual that ties back to. And the tray I was watching be analyzed, I think three or four specimens were starting to show coronavirus as the machine cycled, and they kind of floated up to the top, if you will, so that the team there could take a look. And they get a really nice visual display that they can look at the pattern coming off the machine and visually confirm that, "Yeah, that looks like . . . that is the pattern we see when coronavirus is in the specimen."

Interviewer: Just amazing. Amazing innovation. The toothpick thing, I can wrap my head around all the stuff you explained, I don't even know how people come up with that. Just an amazing group at Cores, to be able to not only do that type of testing, but then when called up to scale it up, it sounds like they just responded in such a great way.

Dr. Good: I am so impressed and I just want to reiterate how helpful this is to our campus. I've received numerous thank you's and compliments from all across the campus. Any member of the University of Utah team, with or without symptoms, can now get a test. And, you know, the piece of this, has been taking the Core Laboratory capability, particularly the PCR capability, and then the team that just really came together. I mentioned Dr. Weyrich and Dr. Phillips. Derek Warner was the one mixing the reagents under the hood. Really a shoutout for Derek, I think he's put a lot of the pieces of this puzzle together. James Cox, another member of the Core Lab team who helped my tour, who led me around, introduced me to members of the team. Michael Powers, Brenda Smith, Elliot Francis. This isn't just one or two people coming together. This is three separate teams, the Core Labs, the clinical ops team, and the IT team. Within each of those teams, there's probably six or eight people that played a leading role in making all this happen. So this is uniquely Utah, and it's so important and such an important service, now available here on campus.

Pandemic fatigue, we all have it. However, it is affecting children more than adults in many cases.

Pandemic fatigue by definition is the mental exhaustion caused by being in a state of heightened awareness and alertness in the face of COVID combined with the uncertainty of how the pandemic will develop. Parents are struggling to continue to juggle working from home and teaching their kids who are doing online school. Healthcare workers are getting burned out from the stress of working with COVID patients and seeing the numbers of infected patients continue to go up.

Kids are becoming more anxious and depressed, not just about isolation and not seeing their friends, but I'm having parents bringing their kids to me about anxiety over things they've never been anxious about before. This is especially true because just as COVID numbers started to increase locally, we also had a major earthquake. I have some patients who if they get a cold are asking me if they're going to die. I have others who are terrified of germs and think they will get COVID if someone touches their dog or they will change their clothes as soon as they get home from being out of the house, even if they just went to a store.

People are tired of wearing masks. People are tired of physically distancing, of not having normal life milestones being able to be celebrated in the way we have done for years. So since this is not showing any signs of slowing down anytime in the immediate future, how can you help your children do the best they can while dealing with COVID in the long haul?

First, continue to make mask wearing fun. I've said it before, and I'll repeat it again. If the mask is something fun, kids will want to wear them more. Have fun characters on their masks. Let the kids have enough variety in their masks that they can coordinate them with their outfits. That's exactly what my younger son does every day. His teachers comment all the time about his cool masks and how they match what he's wearing.

For hand sanitizers, have seasonal scents. If your child doesn't have eczema and they're not sensitive to different fragrances, let them choose what they want to smell on their hands all day long.

Empower kids. Let them know it's okay to tell family members and friends that if they just aren't masked or they're not social distancing, then your kid can't play with them. It's okay to remind others of the rules. Just make sure it doesn't turn into a daily battle and they don't turn into the germ police.

Let kids connect with friends online. I know we didn't use to be a video game family, but when the pandemic hit and schools went online, I caved. I bought an Xbox for my boys and I let them have a certain amount of time to play with friends every day. It helps them still feel connected to their friends, but in a safe way. It also lets them get a break from school and just play and be kids.

Finally, remember that it's okay for them to be bored and figure out new things to do. It's okay to let them cry, even if they can't tell you what they're sad about. It's okay to have breakdowns and just get angry and need you to hug them until they're screaming turns into crying and then I'm sorrys. As long as your child isn't disrespectful or violent, let them express their emotions. Then, if they want to talk about their feelings, if they don't want to, that's okay. Let them have their space. The bottom line is everyone is feeling pandemic fatigue in one way or another. If we all help each other, then we will get through this together.

Well-child visits are still happening during COVID. What can you expect during your child's visit?

When COVID first hit hard, the American Academy of Pediatrics had a big concern that came true for a lot of pediatric providers -- well-child visits would come to a screeching halt. We also became concerned that there would be outbreaks of diseases again due to kids, especially babies, not coming into the office to get their vaccines.

Well, the good news is, in most cases, your doctor's office is probably one of the safest places to be outside of your house. Every office is different, but most of us are trying to divide the waiting room into sick and healthy sides. At check-in, every person is asked screening questions to see what area they need to wait in and also to make sure if someone is sick, that our staff takes appropriate precautions.

Only one parent is allowed in a visit per child. Parents are informed of this when they schedule the appointments, and I know we welcome the parent who couldn't be in the clinic to be involved in the visits through FaceTime. I've actually done two visits today where the parent who couldn't be in the visit was involved via FaceTime, and we were able to have a great conversation. Everyone is wearing eye protection and surgical masks also, and if there are concerns about COVID, we have complete PPE gowns and respirators that we wear.

We disinfect chairs, table, and toys in between each patient, and I have several rooms, so we are able to let the room sit for about 15 minutes to let the disinfectant dry by rotating which rooms we have patients in. We have separate exits for the patients who do not need to go back to the front of the clinic, and there is abundant hand sanitizer. We also have strict precautions for when we think somebody has COVID in terms of letting the room settle with the droplets, cleaning everything including the floors, and using special filters to cycle the air through.

What about virtual well-child visits? Some providers are doing them that way if there are no vaccinations needed. Others are doing only in-person. It's best to check with your pediatrician's office to see what they're doing.

So the next question is, how do you know if your child is due for a well-visit? Well, at our office, we do what is called outreach, meaning that our computer people can generate a list of all the kids that are coming due for well-visits or shots. We call and send letters reaching out to those families to have them schedule appointments. Not all offices have this ability though. If you're not sure if your child is due, please call your pediatrician's office, and they can let you know if an appointment is due and help you schedule at the same time. Your child's health is very important to your pediatrician. Please be sure to keep up with all of their necessary visits during this crazy time.

Mitch: From University of Utah Health and The Scope Presents, this is Clinical.

Here at Clinical, we strive to bring you the stories of the people that make a hospital a hospital. Not just the talented doctors and nurses, which we definitely have, but also the compelling lives and efforts of the often unsung workers that make up the complex ecosystem of healthcare.

Over the next few episodes, we'll be taking a look at a group of professionals that have been on the frontline against dangerous unseen pathogens well before the COVID-19 pandemic. Armed with an arsenal of cleaners and a regiment of protocols and a wealth of knowledge about microscopic enemies, it's the technicians and custodians of Environmental Services that ensure the safety of the facilities for every single person that enters those doors.

At a time when the world seems to rush ever faster by, we wanted to get to know the people who we see in the hospital keeping it spotless and germ-free without ever knowing their names or the often arduous journeys that brought them here.

Presented by Clinical and written and reported by Stephen Dark, this is "Keeper of the Keys."

Stephen: It's 5:00 p.m. in the north stairwell in University Hospital, and Jacobo Lucero is hard at work. As doctors and nurses go up and down the stairs past signs inquiring, "Did you get your steps in today?" Lucero digs into corners of the steps with his broom.

In his gray tunic and black pants uniform of Environmental Services, the 60-year-old keeps mostly to himself as he cleans the 6 stairwells and 10 visitor lifts assigned to him.

The Guatemalan native is a shy, quiet man with a soft, melodious voice that draws you in as he describes work he's done for more than a decade. He's taking English classes, but prefers to speak in Spanish.

Interpreter: I've been cleaning the staircase for 13 years.

Stephen: How many?

Interpreter: Thirteen years cleaning only the staircase. It's funny, isn't it? Time just passed by. I like cleaning because I didn't have to force myself to study English.

Stephen: Doors slam and American voices echo down the stairwell. Lucero wields his broom and mop exchanging only the odd word in English with those who take the time to say hello.

Interpreter: They all go passing by. Do I say hello to anyone in particular? No. After so many years, that doesn't happen. There are a few that I say hello to with two or three little words, but nothing else.

Stephen: Outside of his friends in EVS, no one knows his name, where he came from, how he got here. But like so many of the 235 people who work as Environmental Services Technicians at University of Utah Health, the journey that brought him to the beehive state was far from easy.

Lucero was born to farm laborers in Asuncion Mita, a sleepy little rural town in Guatemala, on the border with El Salvador. His parents moved him and his six siblings to the capital when he was 4.

Man: Good evening. A UN debate was dramatically interrupted Friday afternoon with the emergency announcement that 5,000 Indians in a Guatemalan village were about to be murdered by government troops.

Man: [foreign language 00:04:23 to 00:04:36].

Stephen: In the early 1980s, Guatemala was in the end stages of a 36-year civil war that saw over 200,000 killed and 45,000 disappeared, the vast majority indigenous Mayan civilians. The United Nations attributed 90% of the atrocities committed during the war to the military dictatorship, which was determined to stamp out dissent among the rural poor. Lucero was 23 when two of his older siblings vanished.

Interpreter: I don't know what to say because they were kidnapping everybody. There were so many disappeared. My brother was at the university, and my sister had graduated from beauty school and was already cutting hair.

Stephen: And what happened to them?

Interpreter: We never saw them again.

Stephen: Lucero had a little store. And together with his sister, they adopted the siblings' orphaned children. He and his sister, he says, did the best they could for their niece and nephew. His sister immigrated to the United States and settled in California and told Lucero to come and join her. He traveled from Guatemala through Mexico to cross the border into the United States. It's a trip that over 30 years on he still can't bring himself to talk about.

Interpreter: Extremely difficult. For me, it was very difficult.

Stephen: In what way? If you want to talk about it. You don't have to talk about it.

Interpreter: I don't want to talk about it.

Stephen: Roughly one-third of EVS staff are refugees who came to United States seeking asylum, shelter, food, and the opportunity for a new life. Some came here from childhoods of trauma. Others fled violence, genocide, civil war. Some came from Eastern Europe, others from Asia and African nations. Many also have come from South America, most crossing the border with Mexico without papers at some point in their past. They can only work at the hospital or neighborhood clinics if they have since secured work permits, green cards, or citizenship.

In total, Environmental Services boasts employees from 30 different nations, making it the most diverse department in the healthcare system. What they all have in common is finding a stepping-stone, an opportunity at EVS to build a better life for themselves and their loved ones.

Alisha Barker is the charge nurse in the medical ICU. The MICU takes the sickest of the sick, and during the pandemic became the COVID-19 unit. EVS plays a fundamental role at the MICU, Barker explains.

Alisha: They are on the frontline. They're handling a lot of . . . they're emptying the trash, whereas I can't tell you . . . I throw all kinds of gross stuff in those garbages or the linens. It's incredible. I mean, I have just a great sense of respect for the EVS personnel. I mean, they make our jobs possible.

I'm so grateful when if we have a very sick patient, and we're doing all kinds of things in the room, and we're filling up the trash cans, and opening packages, and frantically working and your garbage can gets full and then you start to have to throw things on the floor, most of the time they're very aware of which rooms are busy and they will come and get the trash for you. Just that simple task is huge to making our job easier.

Stephen: While to some staff and visitors EVS technicians are invisible, for others, there are opportunities to forge relationships, discover commonalities, even if language isn't one of them. Barker found common ground with one EVS employee from Ethiopia, Simret Hagos.

Alisha: She's from Africa, and we talk about kids. We show each other . . . she shows me pictures. I show her pictures of ours. So we have that connection.

Stephen: Hagos' nickname is Mimi, one that her dad gave her. The 35-year-old was born in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. When she was 19, family and friends brought her over to the United States. She came to the U.S. to help her family back home and to get to grips with the English language.

Mimi: Just to learn the language, and to get a job, and to work, and to help my family.

Stephen: Her father passed away. She supports her mother, she says, and her siblings in Ethiopia. That role has necessitated getting a second job as a cashier at a big-box store.

Mimi: My mom, she no work no more. I'm the one helping her. But my sister . . . I have a younger sister and younger brother. They live in my country. They go to the university, and I'm the one who helps them.

Stephen: She started working for EVS in 2008 in the hospital emergency department. She did nighttime shifts, which proved challenging.

Mimi: So when I came in the night, I have to clean every OR detail, like the ceiling, the walls, the trash, the table, everything, sweep them up.

Stephen: A lot of blood.

Mimi: A lot of blood I have to clean. I just don't touch the instrument, but I have to clean everything. I think I have three ORs every night I come in.

There is a lot of blood, especially I remember room 16 or 14. It's a big room because that room is for heart surgery. It takes a long time. So when they finish, they have a lot of blood we have to clean. So it takes you a long time than in other ORs.

Stephen: She reserves a deep passion for the staff at the Medical ICU from which she was reassigned over a year ago.

Mimi: Oh, I really miss . . . I can't even . . . I don't know. Working in MICU is really good. That's like my second home. I really love MICU. I don't know how to say thanks to them, the doctors, the nurses, the manager, the nurse manager, and the physical therapy, the pharmacy, the CNA, the hack. Everybody loved me crazy and I love them crazy.

Stephen: The Roman god Janus was the keeper of the keys, a two-faced deity who marks beginnings, endings, and doorways. The word janitor finds its roots in Janus, someone who guards entrances and, metaphorically, keeps the keys to the kingdom. A custodian performs a similar duty guarding, cleaning, and protecting access points, record, stores, and individuals.

At University Hospital, with the advent of the COVID-19 pandemic, Mimi and her fellow keepers of the keys found themselves thrust onto the frontline with critical care nursing staff and providers, medical specialists who have vast tracks of knowledge to draw upon when it comes to understanding the virus they face. But for EVS stuff, some rely on more abstract notions to keep them safe.

Mimi: It's not new training. But when COVID came in, I have to be careful. The training is the same.

Stephen: Were you concerned or worried about it?

Mimi: I worried too much because I say, "I'm the one cleaning COVID room in ED." I'm really scared when I clean the room. But I leave it to God.

Stephen: Over time, she's got used to it a little.

Mimi: Yeah. When I clean those rooms, I'm stressed. Stressful, because I'm thinking, "Oh, while I'm cleaning, I know I'll be careful, but you don't know sometimes what's going to happen." So maybe I'm going to have these COVID, but right now no. But when they start, I was so scared, but right now it's okay.

Stephen: They are essential workers without whom the very fundamentals of hospital care simply could not continue. They weren't always seen this way, however.

Man: Despite the temporary imposition of martial law, the Shah's new government appears determined to press ahead with liberal reform.

Man: University students demonstrating in Tehran shouting, "Death to the Shah," pledged allegiance to the Islamic movement of the ayatollahs.

Man: The number of killed in Tehran since the beginning of the month is probably well over 100. But people in this crowd were saying and believing 7,000 have been killed. Emotions over the . . .

Stephen: 1979, the Shah of Iran had fled abroad, leaving his supporters to their fate as a brutal coup swept away the former regime. For University of Utah foreign student [Abbas 00:15:22] Bakhsheshy, overnight he had been severed from his past and his country. Over 11,000 kilometers away in Salt Lake City, Utah, he felt alone in the world. Shy, timid, and extremely introverted, he nevertheless had to find work if he was to eat. That first job was washing pots and pans at a kitchen in University Hospital.

Abbas: If you think that dishwashing is as noble as it is, it's not something that anyone wishes to pursue as a career. Dishwashing is actually a promotion to pot washing.

So I remember that the very first day that I was washing pots and pans and my skin was red and my fingernails were so soft, I really decided that this is not the life for me. I had a difficult time. I was shy, bashful, timid. So I was really incredibly devastated. I didn't know how to go about living in this country and I missed my parents.

Stephen: His colleagues in the kitchen saw how hard he was struggling, one in particular.

Abbas: More than anything else, I remember the very gentleman who taught me how to wash pots and pans. His name was Kurt, that had so much patience, and so much love and care. He was telling me how important it is to fill out this massive metal sink, put certain amount of chemicals in there, make sure that the temperature is the right temperature, and make sure to let all these pots and pans be soaked before you actually get in there and try to clean them. I still remember to this day that he told me, "If you do the job right the first time, you do not have to redo it."

Stephen: They taught him a lesson that stayed with him all his life.

Abbas: It's the pride and satisfaction that you take in achieving those series of goals that happened to be your responsibility.

Stephen: Not only did he learn valuable life lessons in the kitchen, Bakhsheshy also found a support system among his colleagues.

Abbas: Those were truly genuinely my heroes because they're the ones that supported me. They stood by me. They tried to coach and mentor me so that I did not end up doing something drastic, such as ending my life.

Stephen: For the next four years, he worked his way up the ladder with the help of his new friends.

Abbas: So because of the kindness, empathy, compassion, and love of these individuals, I was promoted from pot washer to the dishwasher, to working on tray line when you put food together and send to patient. Then I became team leader. I became assistant supervisor, supervisor, manager, assistant director, associate director.

Stephen: Until finally, in 1983, he took over the newly named Environmental Services. The department had struggled with high staff turnover for years.

Abbas: The perception came from the fact that these are the lowest paid individuals, the perception that these are not important people. They're a dime a dozen. They're expendable. They come and go.

Stephen: Bakhsheshy knew he needed to change the culture at EVS and how employees felt about their work. To do that, he used the lessons he'd learned in the kitchen.

Abbas: At that time, it was like a revolving door. People would come and people would go. It's not a glorious job. People don't want to stick with it unless you develop some sort of pride in what they do. You give them meaning associated with that contribution. You give them the feeling that you are as important as a physician, as a hospital administrator. Once they find meaning associated with their contribution, they become inspired. They become motivated.

Stephen: Since the majority of his employees did not graduate high school, he sought to educate them in air quality, hygiene, safety, cleaning supplies. In essence: why when it came to removing germs and bacteria, that job mattered so much. And then to further support his own staff, he set up a coaching and mentoring team to provide additional training on the job. He hammered home, "If you get the job right the first time, then you don't get called back."

Abbas: So, if you do the job right in the first place, you do not have to receive a call from a nurse manager or from a supervisor to say, "This room was not vacuumed properly," or, "These equipment are not cleaned properly, so come and redo it."

Stephen: Which brings us to 10 coins. Every morning, Bakhsheshy would put 10 quarters in his left trouser pocket. Those coins were there to remind him, as he walked around the hospital, to look for 10 employees living up to the hopes he had had for all his staff.

Abbas: And the moment I will see one of the employees doing something nice for another employee, or a patient looking confused trying to find a particular location and this custodian put the vacuum aside and says, "Sir/Ma'am, can I help you? Which department are you looking for?" and then he or she would take that visitor or that patient to the right floor, to the right room, after that I would go and tell him, "Thank you very much for going out of your way to help patients and visitors."

Stephen: And he would move a coin to his other pocket, one coin for each act of generosity, kindness, thoughtfulness, and caring. And each night, he put the coins on the table and he'd sit down in his office and write 10 thank you letters to the loved ones of the employees that he had seen do a good deed that day.

Abbas: But then I also wanted their wife, husband, children, and others to know that his wife or her husband is such a wonderful contributor to the overall wellbeing of . . . and I will say, "Thank you for supporting him. Thank you," because I felt that the moment they go home, they could be hero in the eyes of their wife, husband, children, others. As a matter of fact, employees would tell me that this is much more significant than anything else that we have done for them.

Stephen: By 1990, employee turnover had shrunk.

Abbas: Our turnover dropped dramatically. I believe, in less than four years, our turnover from somewhere between 60% to 70% dropped to about 10% to 15%. And that 10% to 15% were mostly associated with being promoted to different position within the same institution, outside of the department. So it was really significant.

Stephen: And they were no longer invisible. The evidence for that is on a wall adorned with citations and awards in Bakhsheshy's office in the David Eccles School of Business. The dapper professor, folded handkerchief peeking out of his jacket lapel pocket, singles out one photograph as one of his most meaningful achievements: 200 people from 30 different races smile up at the camera that April 1990 afternoon, the white borders of the image covered in signatures of his former employees. That was the day Environmental Services was named best department in University of Utah Health Sciences Center for "its loyal and dedicated service."

Among those upturned faces on Bakhsheshy's wall is Connie Becerril. Then a supervisor, 30 years on, Becerril is about to retire after almost half a century in Environmental Services. It's a department that different disciplines of which still fascinates her, as it did when she began.

Connie: You weren't just in radiology, you weren't just in maternity, and you weren't just in an intensive care unit. You became an integral part and a requirement to know everyone's purpose within the hospital. So that's what intrigued me and I stayed with it.

Stephen: Ask her why she stayed so long in one profession, one department, and she says that it's because of the people she's worked with. They matter to her as they matter to the hospital, which is why she gets upset when she hears people using the word housekeeping to describe her employees.

Connie: So we have continued to evolve. Matter of fact, no one in my organization is permitted to use the word housekeeping. They know that very well in front of me. If they do, they owe me a dollar. If anybody uses the word housekeeping, they are to pay a dollar. It goes into a fund for the custodians.

Stephen: There's so much more than that, she says.

Connie: A housekeeper may be someone that you hire to come to your home to help you do the dishes, and clean the dirty bathroom, and vacuum a carpet. They do much more than that in Environmental Services. They go hand in hand with our medical team. The medical team may be eliminating bacteria/organisms that live internally, and our Environmental Services staff eliminate those bacteria and infections that are in the environment. They manage the environment. If we don't do well, then our physicians and our nursing staff aren't able to do their best either.

Stephen: She sees her department much as Bakhsheshy did: as a stepping-stone for those who want to advance, as well as a place to build new lives. Some, she knows, were highly educated, white-collar workers in their home countries, but the United States government doesn't always recognize their educational credentials. Others found the work a stepping-stone into medicine.

Connie: I've actually had people who have come in and are now nurses. I have one gentleman that went on to be a doctor.

Stephen: Becerril has worked hard to modernize her department. Four years ago, she secured funding for eight ultraviolet cleaning robots to help support her staff, a squadron of machines she calls her R2-D2s.

Connie: The robot can actually . . . the UV light, it breaks down any residual. It is probably the final piece when you're cleaning and turning over a discharge room.

Stephen: Imagine a tall cylindrical robot that spins out purple beams hazardous to life. It's locked away inside a patient room, zapping proteins and bugs after an EVS employee has finished cleaning it post-discharge of the patient.

Connie: So the robots were our last piece of defense to ensure that we were not exposing the environment to harsh chemicals, something that could cause other people to be sick. And it has been championed by all of our medical pathologists throughout the country and outside of our country, and so . . .

Stephen: For all the hardware she's managed to secure to bring EVS into the 21st century, it's her people that she's proudest of, like Lynette Nelson. Nelson grew up in Gary, Indiana, and came to Utah when she was 21 to find work. Seventeen years ago, Becerril hired Nelson to join her staff of frontline workers. One patient was so moved by Nelson's attentive, caring manner, a family donated money to the university in her name.

Lynette: The donation was I took care of a patient, a mom patient in the family. I guess they really liked me. And then Connie said, "Lynette, you got a donation from that family." So, yeah, I felt pretty proud, but I'm not a bragger or nothing. I don't know. It wasn't talked . . .

Stephen: Becerril identifies something crucial in that story when it comes to understanding the impact EVS has on the hospital.

Connie: She made such an impression on them, was such a kind soul. She's just a sweet girl. She was very genuine. She would do whatever it took to make them happy. And she took time out of her day to talk to the patient.

I think that's what many people don't understand, is that the patient in, I would say, a very, very high percentage has more of a connection with the person that's cleaning their room than they do with the care provider. They see that person every day. That person speaks to them every day. They sometimes tell them things that they would not tell their nurse.

Stephen: If Nelson epitomizes the idea of how employees in EVS fulfill Bakhsheshy's philosophy of always trying to do more, then Jacobo Lucero is, in many ways, the nightly living embodiment of that gift.

More often than not, when employees of University Hospital use the stairwell in the late afternoon or evening, they'll hear a voice that belongs more in a church or a cathedral than in such a utilitarian space as a stairwell.

Jacobo: [singing]

Stephen: For many nurses and other carers in the hospital, Lucero provides a moment of respite, even solace, during difficult times. He offers them spiritual care in his own anonymous church as he sweeps and mops the floor. Charge nurse Alisha Barker finds Lucero's voice almost bewitching.

Alisha: It's just an escape and it's calming. And he just has a beautiful voice. I've tried to make eye contact with him and to be friendly with him. You walk by and he's very closed off. And he'll stop singing and you walk by and you're like, "No, keep going. Hi. I can't tell you how much I love your singing and how much it helps me."

Stephen: Lucero has never had a singing class. He laughs at the idea. In Guatemala, he sang popular songs by Latin American artists for his own amusement. In Utah, he found a church on North Temple that he liked, and it was there he sang for the congregation with a guitarist from Honduras. He sings, he says, to relax. He finds peace in his singing. That's because he's singing to someone else.

Interpreter: To sing, for me, is to communicate with God. For me, one has to worship God all the time. Even if I'm sad and I'm with someone, I still have to praise God because that is my responsibility as a good Christian. Thus, "What's it worth?" the Lord says. That you have to praise him all the time, in time of illness, in time of poverty, in time of prosperity. And singing is a way to praise him.

Stephen: Praising God through his singing, he says, brings him a sense of freedom.

Interpreter: And when one sings where the spirit of God is, there is freedom. If someone can't sing, it's because he isn't free. The enemy doesn't want him to sing. The devil has him tied up so he can't sing.

Stephen: So you're expressing . . .

Interpreter: The freedom that God gives me.

Stephen: In the months since the pandemic has taken an ever-tighter grip of the University Hospital and its critical care staff, his songs of compassion and love have created their own oasis in this otherwise nondescript stairwell.

If Lucero sings to his God, he's also singing for God's people. In this echoing chamber of steps connecting one lifesaving floor to another, he treats wounded hearts, offering no more than the precious, priceless gift of his melodic balm.

Jacobo: [singing]

Mitch: Next time on Clinical, we revisit the self-described maverick, Jessica Rivera, and share her journey to becoming a director of the many teams at the University of Utah Health clinics and explore not only Environmental Services' response to the COVID-19 pandemic, but also how the managers are balancing not only being caretakers for the hospital, but how they care for the workers that they're responsible for. Join us next time for A Bushel and a Peck.

Clinical is part of The Scope Presents network and brought to you by University of Utah Health. If you liked what you heard, please be sure to subscribe and share with your friends. And if you haven't yet, why not give us a rating on Stitcher or Apple Podcasts?

And to all of our doctors, nurses, admins, interpreters, operators, technicians, and all the other hospital employees out there, we know you're listening. Do you have a story that you would like to share with us? A message to the workers that you've heard about today? Feel free to reach out to our listener line by calling 1-601-55SCOPE. Again, that's 1-601-55SCOPE. Or email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Clinical is produced by me, Mitch Sears, and Stephen Dark. A very special thanks to Francisco Soto and Interpreter Services for providing translation and voice acting for this episode.

Music by Bottega Baltazar, Vortex, Giants & Pilgrims, Ian Post, Muted Artist, Nadav Coehn, and Ziv Moran. Audio news clips from PBS NewsHour, C-SPAN, and the American Archive of Public Broadcasting.

And of course, a heartfelt thanks to the men and women who have shared their stories with all of us and work to this very day to keep each and every one of us safe.

We are several months into this pandemic, and schools are back in session. For some, they're online only. For others, they're in person. And for some, they are a mix of both.

Several schools are closed because of outbreaks. So how do we keep this up, and how do we keep our kids and teachers safe? First, I think there are a lot of kids doing a terrific job wearing their masks. I have been really impressed with how kids as young as 18 months have kept their masks on. We need to praise them when they're following the rules and let them know we appreciate how they're helping to keep themselves, their friends, and their teachers healthy.

Speaking of teachers, I've spoken to several since before school started. They're doing such a hard job of trying to keep our kids educated and everyone safe. In many cases, they're doing double duty by preparing in-person lessons and online lessons. I'm not sure if this is something that could still happen, but I think it would be great if teachers would be able to wear masks that are clear over their mouths so the kids can see them talking. My son has a mask like that that is for his American Sign Language class. Also, another option is to make sure they have face shields, especially the elementary school teachers. As we all know, kids that age don't necessarily cover their noses or mouths when they sneeze.

With a few exceptions, kids love their teachers. I think that became even more apparent when distance learning started. I know my kids really miss certain teachers. They are working long, long hours. If your child is a distance learner, please make sure they are logging in and doing their work. I know my kids are doing in-person, four days a week, and they are struggling with keeping up with all of the assignments given to them. It seems like some teachers are overloading them, but I think they're just trying to get as much in as possible in case the kids get sick. If kids are doing distance only, there's a tendency to get a little further behind because you don't have that in-person accountability. I've heard that phrase from a lot of parents whose kids are doing distance learning.

The only thing we know for sure is that this situation isn't going away anytime soon. We all need to adjust and figure out what works best for our kids and their teachers to keep them both safe, keep kids on the path of getting their education, and keep the teachers from burning out.

Interviewer: This Thanksgiving and Christmas, it's going to be very different than Thanksgivings and Christmases in the past. It used to be you would get together with family and friends, and now health officials are saying that perhaps you should reconsider that because of the spread of COVID-19, that you should maintain that family bubble.

However, even within families there are a lot of different opinions on how dangerous the virus is and what kind of safety precautions could be taken. So having those conversations with family members about whether or not to come to Thanksgiving or get the whole family together could be very, very challenging.

Dr. Benjamin Chan is a psychiatrist at University of Utah Health and in communication, communicating your thoughts and feelings is referred to as assertive communication, and it can be a very challenging thing to do. And I wanted to find out how somebody could be an assertive communicator, not aggressive, but an assertive communicator in talking about plans for Thanksgiving and Christmas. So is that what you call it? Is that what you call it, is assertive communication in your field?

Dr. Chan: Yes, Scot. And again, we're all in the middle of a pandemic. This is historic, unprecedented, and incredibly challenging. And in years past, Thanksgiving dinner would be a time that we get together, see and talk to long-lost cousins, aunts, uncles, grandmas, grandpas, maybe some neighbors, family friends. That is not safe this year.

And there's a lot of disagreement in the community about how to get together for Thanksgiving. A lot of people have different thoughts and feelings about COVID, and what social distancing is, and what masks are. And this time more than any other is the time for you to be assertive because you have to protect your own health. You have to protect your family and your loved ones. And COVID is silently transmitted. This is not the podcast that goes into it, but you can listen to many others. But there's a lot of different research and data out there that shows how pernicious and silent COVID can spread.

So assertiveness means behaving and communicating in a manner that equally values your rights and opinions on par with other people's rights and opinions. And the opposite of assertiveness is passiveness. And passiveness is when you put someone else's rights and opinions above your own. So now is the time to be assertive.

Interviewer: Have those assertive conversations beforehand. What does that look like? Because I mean, some people, myself included, we don't like conflict, right? So it's really difficult for us to know . . . I'm going to be talking to somebody in my family who thinks that COVID maybe isn't a big deal, that we should still get together, and it's going to be tough for me to express, "No, I disagree." How do you do that in an assertive way?

Dr. Chan: You do that in an assertive way by first recognizing that the other person has a different opinion and feeling than yourself. And then you segue into statements that start with, "I feel." So, "I feel scared for my own health because when I hear that you're going to host a Thanksgiving get-together and not everyone there is going to be wearing a mask or socially distancing, I feel scared that I might get COVID." And you frame things where you recognize the other person's belief or values, and then you maintain your own beliefs and values.

And people want to be heard, they want to be listened to. So my experience has been if you immediately start talking about what you believe and do not give the other person the recognition for what they believe, that's where conflict really starts escalating because the two parties don't feel like they're being listened to or heard. But if you can restate perhaps in their own words or maybe a summation of what you understand what their belief is and then give your belief, that gives an opportunity for that person to feel that you actually listened to them, an acknowledgement, and then you can present your belief.

Interviewer: I tell you what, I can see the spiraling for me pretty quickly, because I think people that do believe that COVID is a serious threat to the health, when they hear somebody that does not necessarily have that same belief, we just want to go, "Well, I understand you don't think this is a big of a threat impact as I do." Would that be the restating? Is that fair enough? Is that all I need to say? I mean, it's so hard not to do that judgmentally.

Dr. Chan: I agree, Scot. And it's credibly difficult. It might take practice. And I think when you, like, your example you just gave is a very quick response and people's responses tend to be much longer. So if you say, you know, "When I hear you, it sounds like you do not feel that the COVID pandemic is as serious as some of the public health officials have said or as serious as some of the hospital officials have said. I do believe those individuals, and this is why I believe them." I agree, it could start spiraling, but to me the key is to reframe it through core values. Just go back to values.

So people want to feel safe. They want to feel heard. They want to feel that they're being listened to. So if the core value is health, you can talk about like, "What is your value about the health," and they'll talk about the memories and the mental health of getting together for Thanksgiving. And you can use that as a springboard of, "Okay, this is my conceptualization of health. I'm worried about COVID. I'm worried about the fevers and the respiratory problems and everything else associated with COVID." If you have a discussion about values, the vast majority of people have core similar values, and then you can just explore those basic values together.

It's hard, Scot. It's incredibly difficult because people are drawing upon information from a wide variety of sources. Some of these sources might not have the same beliefs that you believe or might have different versions of facts. But you need to be assertive during this moment because if not, you will open yourself up to potentially being exposed to COVID and then a lot of hurt feelings will stem from that.

Interviewer: You know, being assertive doesn't necessarily mean the other person is going to react in a positive way. And if they don't, I guess you just have to go away with, you know, "I tried my best, but I have to make this decision for myself, or for grandma, or for grandpa, or for whoever." How do you deal with that? So again, I don't like conflict. I don't like it when somebody, you know, doesn't like me anymore. How do you deal with that? Is there a closing phrase you would use? Like, "I'm sorry we couldn't come together on this, but I still love you and care about you very much."

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Again, Scot, you did a great job. I think it's like you want to normalize this as best as you can during a pandemic. So this is an important holiday coming up. It's very important to a lot of people, but it's simply one day out of the year. And we have talked about previously, we're in a marathon. This is not a sprint. There's a lot of things happening in the country as we're trying to address this. So in my attempt to normalize, it's like, if everyone got together for Thanksgiving there's going to be disagreements. We've always had disagreements over the Thanksgiving table. Sometimes it's about the Dallas Cowboys and the Detroit Lions football teams. Sometimes it's about someone's political beliefs. Sometimes it's about someone not doing well at school or their job. It's normal to have conflict during Thanksgiving time.

This is a time when it might be normal to have a disagreement if we should really get together, or if we get together, it needs to be socially distant and safe with masks, or maybe we don't get together this year, or maybe we do a Zoom Thanksgiving and a virtual Thanksgiving. And that's okay because the most important thing is safety and health. And we want to stay together as a family in the coming months, and there's a light at the end of the tunnel. We all feel that. We all believe that. We want that to happen. That's still very much many months away.

So I try to end all these difficult conversations kind of like you gave with positivity. Let's say something nice. Let's say something that we can all agree on. I always like in these tough discussions kind of like a U shape. You start off high, you kind of go low, you go really deep, you kind of talk about feelings, emotions, values, and then you rise back up. You never want to end these discussions at the bottom of the pit. You want to rise to the top and say some nice things to each other, and agree to, you know, let's talk about something that's not as emotionally taxing, like the Dallas Cowboys or the Detroit Lions. Let's talk about something that we can agree on because these are difficult conversations. It's really hard to be assertive, but now more than ever it's really required.