Search for tag: "postpartum"

Interviewer: You've likely heard of postpartum depression in regards to the mother of a new baby. But did you know as many as 10% of fathers face their own sort of postpartum depression? And it can happen before or after their child is born. But unfortunately, men are unlikely to discuss it or get support. And untreated, it can impact the emotional health of the father and his ability to be available for his baby and the mother.

Jamie Lea Hales is a licensed clinical social worker, and she specializes in helping couples with their mental health during and after pregnancy. I didn't know postpartum depression was a thing that men could have. Does it have a particular name when men have it, or is it just male postpartum depression?

Jamie: Actually, it really doesn't have its own special name. You would think that it might, but the reality is we just refer to it as perinatal mood and anxiety disorders because it can hit moms, dads, partners, grandparents, and caregivers really just in general. So it's much more broad than I think we initially realized.

Interviewer: And what causes it?

Jamie: I think it comes from a combination of life stressors, changes, loss of identity, and also the fact that your brain can change as you become a parent.

Interviewer: Wow, that's really interesting. So is it all in the brain? Is it all chemical related or are there other factors that can contribute to male postpartum depression?

Jamie: Outside of the changes to the brain, realistically when you have a new baby enter your life, whether it's your first or your fifth, there are going to be some compounding psychosocial stressors that come along with that. It is one of the biggest changes that you can go through.

Interviewer: And what kind of stressors are the most common to contributing to perinatal mood disorders or postpartum depression in men?

Jamie: First and foremost, lack of sleep. I cannot hit that one enough because it is the thing that I see over and over again. If you are not taking care of yourself, if you're not getting enough rest . . . And when I mean enough rest, I mean four- to five-hour chunks at a time. For both parents, this is probably the key to keeping yourself well.

Interviewer: Are there other types of stress guys talk about that can lead to male postpartum depression?

Jamie: When we look at some of our male patients, the pressure to provide financially can actually increase stress quite a bit because there are dueling priorities between being home, helping out, and being more involved, which we are seeing a lot more men being more actively involved in their child's caregiving, but also the dual pressure of having to be at work as well.

I mean, I don't want to completely gender that because that can 100% be the reverse as well. But it's just a lot.

Interviewer: And I've heard another major form of stress for men can be these expectations about what it's like to be a father or the kind of father they want to be. Can you tell me more about that?

Jamie: We all have this idea maybe in our heads of what parenting is supposed to be or should be. And when you actually get into the thick of it, a lot of the time, it doesn't line up with exactly what you thought it would be. And so there can be kind of an interesting grief reaction.

If you had a difficult relationship with your parent, you may have a lot of pressure on yourself to do better than they did. Or if you feel like you had the ideal parenting situation and it's not . . . And some people do. I mean, some people really do feel like, "My dad was the best. He was the best that I could possibly hope for." And then when they feel like they're not living up to what those expectations might be, that can be really, really difficult for people to accept.

And it takes some time I think, especially if you're not going to therapy or talking with somebody openly about this, to be able to resolve and say, "Okay, but I get to decide what type of parent I am going to be," and whatever that is, is okay.

Interviewer: Right. It doesn't have to be what you see on TV or in the magazines or what the guy down the street is doing.

Jamie: Absolutely.

Interviewer: We create those own realities ourselves.

How do most men experience this when they describe to you how they're feeling? What are the words they use?

Jamie: A lot of the time, it's just "I'm not feeling like myself." There's a loss of identity, I think, coming into being a parent.

And some of the symptoms that we see more frequently with men is irritability. Lots of "I've been really snappy with my partner a little bit more, just quick to anger in general."

We also see an uptick in use of substances. So more frequent use of whether it's prescribed to things that they've been given to help with sleep or anxiety, or even just increase in alcohol use because there is that stress and trying to figure out how to kind of mellow out. That's something that we see pretty frequently.

Interviewer: Are some fathers more likely to be impacted by male postpartum depression than others? Are there some things we know?

Jamie: Definite risk factors are preexisting mental health conditions. You are far more at risk for experiencing a PMAD if you are already struggling with mental health conditions.

Now, that being said, it does not mean that it will necessarily get worse. It's just something to be very much aware of, which is why we talk about a lot of this from a preventative standpoint.

Also, if you are somebody that has struggled with depression or anxiety prior to having kids, staying on your medication and continuing to work with that is going to be pretty key.

Another risk factor that I would definitely want to touch on is when a pregnancy is unplanned or unwanted and you haven't had adequate time to truly process through that and kind of wrap your head around it, that can be a risk factor as well.

So I highly encourage people who are in maybe a situation that they're not 100% sure about to talk with their partners about it well in advance during the pregnancy so that you can work on communication and really just work on trying to set yourselves up for a healthy plan for self-care once baby actually gets here. It's important for both people, and I always like to include both partners as much as I can in our process.

Interviewer: At what point, if a guy recognizes some of the symptoms you talked about, should he be concerned and seek some additional help to get some tools to help get through this time?

Jamie: If you notice it at all, if it's really impacting your day-to-day life, it's impacting your relationships, impacting your work, that's a great time to reach out and get some help. I think that there is benefit potentially to getting on the internet and looking at some just online resources, just trying to understand it better and get some education.

Interviewer: And of course, make sure that the resources you're reading are reputable from medical institutions, that sort of thing. Are there other resources online you like?

Jamie: The online resources I do really enjoy because I think it's a good way for dads to find a community of people who are struggling with the same things and are being open about it without having to search too hard or run the risk of feeling like the person in their life is just going to say, "Well, suck it up."

If it looks like it is getting worse or you just don't quite know how to wrap your head around it, I think that speaking with somebody who is in the mental health field could be very warranted.

This is a really common thing. We see this. Statistically, it could be 10%, but I think it's much higher than that. So please reach out for help if that's something that you feel like you could be struggling with or even if you're just unsure. There is no shame in that.

Interviewer: For men that aren't quite to the point where they feel they need to see a professional, you've talked about an acronym called SUNSHINE that can help with postpartum depression. Does this apply to both women and men?

Jamie: Absolutely.

Interviewer: All right. Let's go through this, because this is a tool right now that our listeners could take away and start implementing right now and see if it helps. So let's talk about SUNSHINE.

Jamie: One of the wellness acronyms that we use quite frequently in our work is actually SUNSHINE. So what it is, is a series of different things that you should be thinking about when it comes to your mental and physical well-being during pregnancy and the postpartum period.

So it stands for sleep, understanding, nutrition, support, humor, information, nurture, and exercise. So those are all points that I think would be helpful in the preparation phase for having a kid, to think about, "How am I going to still try to get some of these things?"

And it's going to vary depending on where you are in that process. During the early stages, your focus may be on one of those things. And throughout the process, it might be able to expand into something else.

So I always advise my patients not to think about it as if you're not doing each and every one of these things, you're failing at your postpartum experience or you're failing at therapy. But just make sure that you are keeping them somewhere in the back of your mind because you are still an important person and your relationships are still important, whether you've got a baby in the picture or not.

Interviewer: So just give us one sentence for each one of the items in SUNSHINE. So sleep.

Jamie: Four to five hours as often as possible. Uninterrupted.

Interviewer: Uninterrupted. And try to get the standard eight to nine, otherwise?

Jamie: Absolutely, if you're able to. What that will likely look like, however, is especially in the early days taking turns potentially with your spouse, because they also need that time.

Interviewer: What about understanding? Expand on what that means.

Jamie: Understanding can mean a couple of things. You could again reach out and try to get a better idea of what other people's experiences have been like. Or you could also just get some education around what perinatal mood and anxiety disorders actually are.

Interviewer: And then what about nutrition?

Jamie: Nutrition, that's a tricky one. So this is not a great time to start a brand new diet plan. It's probably not going to be the top of your list of things. What we do want to make sure is that you are making sure you're actually eating and fueling your body. It's really, really easy to put your focus all on everybody else and sort of forget that you have needs also.

Interviewer: All right. So make sure you're eating and try to get as much nutrition as possible, knowing that maybe you might have to use some convenience foods.

Jamie: Absolutely. And preparation going into this can be really helpful for that, making sure that you do have some healthy things around the house. But I'm certainly not going to judge you if the thing you ate for lunch was a bag of M&Ms. Just get something in your system if you can.

Interviewer: Support.

Jamie: Support is something that we should start generating right from the get go, whether it's our family, improving our communication with our spouse, whatever that looks like. It's good to try and bring your support system in as long as that's a safe thing for you to do.

Interviewer: All right. And humor. Crack lots of jokes?

Jamie: Definitely. Hey, dads are known for their dad jokes, right? That's a thing for a reason. But being able to laugh at the situation sometimes really can help. Not only does it increase your endorphins and just make you feel better in general, but sometimes being able to find humor in the absurdity that can come along with parenting is not a bad thing to do.

Interviewer: Good tension release a lot of the times, yeah. Information.

Jamie: Information. Get good information about these things. Get good information about your mental health. When I say go to online resources, I think finding ones that are specific to dads' mental health through Postpartum Support International are great. I would suggest don't go down the social media rabbit hole of things that will probably make you feel worse about your parenting.

Interviewer: Does information also include just learning more about what it is to raise a child?

Jamie: Absolutely.

Interviewer: Because to me, that would be a major stress point. I have a friend that I don't know how many books he read before his child arrived, and he said it just made him feel so much better.

Jamie: Yeah, I think it can be a real help to people just having a better idea of what that could look like. The caution I will put on that is that there is a perspective for pretty much anything you can find out there. So maybe get some guidance from your pediatrician before you just delve into something.

Interviewer: Yeah, make sure you're getting some of the good books. Nurture.

Jamie: Nurture comes back to the self-nurturing piece of this. It is okay to talk about how you are feeling.

Interviewer: And feel. It's okay to feel. A lot of guys struggle with just even doing that or identifying what the emotion is.

Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. Or feeling like a dad in general. It's a big shift and we want to make sure you're taking care of yourself.

Interviewer: And it's okay to say, "Hey, I'm doing okay. I'm an okay dad." I mean, if you can't say, "I'm a great dad," go with, "I'm an okay dad," I suppose.

Jamie: Being a good enough dad is good enough. It's different for everybody. And people always balk a little bit about that idea, but there is a whole theory around the good enough mother, and so we do actually talk about that quite a bit. Dads fall into that category too.

Interviewer: And finally, in SUNSHINE, you have exercise.

Jamie: Again, I'm not saying go out and start a whole brand new plan and get a gym membership and do all the things that you've been trying to accomplish, but get some movement. That movement can just be going out for a walk once a day just to get some vitamin D and stretch your legs.

Interviewer: It's good for the body and the mind.

Jamie: It is.

Interviewer: Exercise, like you said, releases all those endorphins and makes you feel good, helps reduce that stress.

If those things aren't working, what's the next step that you would recommend a man take?

Jamie: I would recommend reaching out to even if it's just your primary care physician to say, "I'm struggling with this. This is hard." If you are actively involved in child's doctor's appointments, you could even talk to your kid's pediatrician about how you're feeling. They have a lot of really great resources.

Interviewer: Jamie, this has been a very informative, great conversation. I know it's going to help a lot of dads-to-be. Any kind of final thoughts as we wrap up this conversation that you would really want somebody to take away after listening?

Jamie: There are times when you're in the early stages where it just feels like everything is falling apart, but you're definitely not by yourself. You're not the only one that has struggled with becoming a parent or feeling like it's going to be like this forever. It's truly not. Get some support, and at the end of the day, it will get better and you're not by yourself.

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Scot: Hey, Troy. What was one of the things that everybody said about being a new dad, and you're like, "Eh, really?" and it turns out it's true? What was the one thing? Do you have something?

Troy: I think the anxiety that comes with it, that's probably the one thing. I heard people say, "You will lie there at night, and you will just listen to her breathe. And you will just make sure you are hearing her breathe." And I was like, "No way. I would never even do that." I have absolutely done that. So, yeah, that's definitely true.

Scot: Oh, man. Transitioning into fatherhood, like any chapter, can be really, really challenging and it can have an impact on your health. I mean, how many times have you heard guys say they stopped exercising or eating right after they've had kids, or their sleep is just constantly impacted after that? Or just even emotional health issues. It's a big change in your life. And we have a guy that has just become a new daddy, Dr. Troy Dadsen.

Troy: Dadsen, with a D.

Mitch: Dr. Troy Dadsen.

Scot: With a D.

Troy: There we go.

Scot: And this is a Sideshow episode of "Who Cares About Men's Health," where we're going to get a new daddy update, where Troy is going to tell us some of his experience as it relates to his life, and back to the Core Four that might be able to help other new dads.

"Who Cares About Men's Health" provides information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health. My job, I bring the BS. I'm Scot Singpiel, and I chose not to have kids because I was afraid I'd screw them up. So that's why I don't have kids.

Troy: Scot, I was deathly afraid I would screw them up too. But I have a kid now, and hopefully I don't screw her up.

Scot: Now that is the MD to my BS, new daddy, Troy Madsen.

Troy: Yeah, that's me, bringing the baby to the show.

Scot: And nieces and nephews are enough for now, says Mitch Sears. He's on the show as well.

Mitch: Yeah. I'm good for a bit. Yeah, I'm good.

Scot: Okay. Because I just made that up to be clever in the intro, and then I asked myself, "I wonder if that's true. I wonder if he actually wants to have kids at this point."

Mitch: I don't know. No.

Scot: No?

Mitch: No. We'll see. I mean, we'll figure it out at one point or another.

Scot: Okay. All right. Troy, it's great to have you back on the show for a new daddy update. So I've got one question for this episode of the podcast. Tell us all about being a new dad.

Troy: So I'm just going to go into a 20-minute monologue now.

Scot: Actually, just give us an update to start off with. How's it going so far? How long's it been and how's it going?

Troy: So things are going incredibly well. It's been two months. She just turned 2 months old. Her name is Adeline. We call her Addie. That's her nickname. So she goes by Addie. She was born just over two months ago.

And I will say the delivery experience itself went incredibly smoothly. It was funny. It was just about . . . Well, it was one week before she was due. And Laura, my wife, was at the vet with one of our foster dogs, Arthur, who, Scot, you know well. You saw pictures of him at least. Very cute little guy. And Laura calls me and says, "Well, Arthur is doing well, and I think my water just broke."

Mitch: She buried the lede? Ugh.

Troy: Yeah, she totally buried the lede. She started with, "Well, Arthur is doing well. Everything is good. And I think my water just broke."

Scot: Well, from a comedic standpoint, that is the delivery. So good for her.

Troy: Yeah, exactly. From a comedic standpoint, yeah. So she came home. We went in to the hospital. So we got in there about noon. Addie was born about 2 in the morning. Came out with her eyes wide open and just the most beautiful little girl I've ever seen. Obviously, I'm very biased.

Scot: Of course you are.

Troy: And then I had about an hour with her alone because they just had to watch her over just in the pediatric . . . just the neonatal care unit. So I had about an hour in there with her alone, just sitting there with her, and just looking at her and just thought, "Wow, this is absolutely remarkable."

And every day since then, I've felt the same way. Every day it is just . . . Just to see her grow, and develop, and her mental development as she's become more attentive and more focused on our faces. Just in the last two weeks, she'll smile. I'll look at her and she'll see me and she'll smile, and look at Laura and smile and laugh. We'll laugh and she'll laugh, and it's just the cutest thing in the world.

And she's just my little best buddy. We walk around during the day. She loves to ride around in this pack. I've got this little pack that sits on my chest, and she's facing me and she just loves that. She'll ride around all day.

Some days, after a long run, my legs are tired and I'm like, "I don't know if I can be on my feet for another three hours carrying this kid around." But she loves it, and she'll fall asleep. And she'll look around, look outside at the squirrels and birds and whatever else.

It's like I've got this new little best friend at home now. And quite honestly, just really enjoying it.

And I think probably the biggest surprise in all this has just been how smoothly everything has gone. Again, me being kind of the pessimist, where I see so many things that go wrong in pregnancy just throughout my medical career, and just being aware of those things. And so I think just every day I'm so grateful that everything has gone as well as it has, and everything continues to go well, and just really enjoying the time I have with her.

Scot: You know what? As you were talking and as we're having this conversation, Troy, it just dawned on me talking about the new baby and going into depth about details about the new baby is something that we tend to think that women do, right? That's my perception.

Mitch: Yeah.

Scot: But then as you're talking about this, and I'm sitting here and I'm listening, I'm like, "I don't know if guys talk about . . ." Do you get asked by other guys about how it's going, and are they expecting an in-depth update? Are they just expecting, "Eh, it's great"? What's your experience with that?

Troy: Yeah, I think it is definitely less of a guy thing. I have had one friend in particular who has seemed genuinely interested, who has texted me. And we really haven't talked. It's been more just text. But he's always like, "Oh, send me pictures." I don't know if he's just being nice. I think most guys it's kind of like, "Hey, how are things going?" And you're like, "Oh, things are good. She's great." But he has seemed a little more interested.

But I think it is not a conversation I would say I've had a lot beyond having the same sort of conversation with my parents or siblings. Kind of telling them about things. And even then, when I say siblings, I'm talking about my sisters.

So, yeah, I don't know that guys have that sort of conversation a lot, but we'll see.

Scot: Yeah. I want to jump in and ask, this friend of yours that has shown some interest, does that make you feel different? Do you like that? Do you like talking about her? I guess what I'm trying to get at here is maybe we should do this more often for our friends that have become new dads, because they would enjoy talking about it. It would make them happy.

Troy: I think it would make them happy. But I also kind of feel like I don't want to be the guy who is always saying everything about his cute little girl and showing everyone pictures because I'm kind of like, "Do they really care? Am I over-sharing? Is this too much? Do they really want to know all this?" So there is that sort of guy thing in me too, where it's kind of like, "Do they really want to hear me say all this stuff?"

Scot: If the shoe was on another foot, if it was not you with the new baby, but a friend of yours that you would consider a close friend, would you want to hear about it?

Troy: That's a good question. Probably at this point I would a lot more than I would have a year ago. I think as you're going through it, and you're having those experiences, and then others share that with you . . .

I think six months down the road, if I have a friend who has a new baby and they're sharing their experiences with me, I think then there's a certain amount of nostalgia and reminiscing that you would experience as you hear their experiences.

But let's say a year ago, I don't know that I would've been that interested. And that's just simple reality, just because it wasn't really part of my life. I didn't really have a lot to relate to there.

So that's kind of where I'm sometimes hesitant to say too much and feel like I'm over-sharing, or being that kind of irritating person who's showing them 100 pictures of my new baby and they just don't care.

Scot: I mean, I am actually genuinely interested. Even though we're doing this for a podcast episode, I'm genuinely interested in hearing about your experience and hearing about it in depth. Although there are other people in my life that I would not be, but I consider you a much closer friend.

So I think I want to flag this as a little takeaway. At least my observation is if you have really close friends and you're not having these discussions, maybe open up because it's really going to make that other person feel really good. They want to talk about it, I would imagine.

Troy: They do. Yeah, I think so.

Scot: You say you want to talk about it.

Troy: I do. I love talking about her. I really do.

Scot: Don't just peg this as this is something that women do. Men can do this too.

Troy: Yeah. There are so many cool experiences just on a daily basis, just little tiny things. Again, like I said, when she started to just focus on us more, and you could tell her eyesight was improving and focusing on our smile, just the laughs, and the little sound she makes. And talking to her, her looking at me and then her moving her mouth and making little noises like she's trying to talk too.

It's just silly little things like that, but it's just like, "Wow, this is so cool." Every day she entertains me. I'm not bored at all. Every moment I spend with her I find interesting and entertaining in some way.

Scot: So you said what's been surprising for you, and definitely it sounds like you've been blessed how well things have gone, because that doesn't necessarily happen in all cases. But what's been kind of challenging?

Mitch: Sure.

Scot: What do you deal with there?

Troy: Yeah, I think some of the challenges . . . Fortunately, I think I did have some preparation for them. I will say this, and I don't want to say this in a negative way at all, but leading up to this, I received more unsolicited advice than I have ever received at any point in my life.

I can only think of a couple cases where I might have asked for some advice, but the amount of advice I have received was astounding, as people found out we had a baby on the way. But that's a good thing. I think it helped me out a lot.

But I will say one of the things that has been a big adjustment is just expecting everything is going to take a whole lot longer. If we're getting ready to go out anywhere, you just expect it's going to take a lot longer to do that.

There were some unexpected medical issues very early on. Not major issues, but just some things that came up where it was, in that first week, multiple visits to the pediatrics clinic. The first couple days, we were just down there every day. It was a little stressful. No question about it.

Scot: Yeah, I didn't know about that.

Troy: Yeah. It wasn't big stuff. I mean, it was just stuff that comes up.

Scot: But at the time, it probably was, right?

Troy: It wasn't. I mean, that's the thing. Again, I knew of so many things that could possibly go wrong that I felt very grateful that that was all that we were dealing with. It wasn't big stuff. It was just like, "Okay, I've seen this in the ER. I've dealt with this. This is what we do." But it was an added level of just a little more complexity.

Scot: Yeah, it makes your life even more busy because you've got all these appointments and more traveling and stuff.

Troy: Yeah, exactly. So that's why it was a relief to just kind of get through that first week. And then at the end of the week, the pediatrician was like, "Hey, everything is good. We'll see you back here in a couple weeks." So I was like, "Great. We have two weeks where we don't have to come and see a doctor." So that was nice.

But yeah, I think in terms of just unexpected things that have come up, I think it helps having . . . Working in the medical field definitely helps to at least kind of know a lot of what you could deal with.

I will say, though, maybe one of the most unexpected things I have dealt with is how you truly as a medical professional lose all objectivity when you're talking about your own child. It's very different.

I may see a rash in the ER and be like, "Oh, that's what it is. No big deal." I see a rash on her, I'm like, "Oh, wow. It could be this, this, this, this, and this, and I'm really concerned." I'm a little different because I'm overthinking it.

But I will say, I think every parent runs that risk of turning to Dr. Google. You Google stuff and you see every awful thing that it could possibly be. And that's kind of where my mind has gone at times, like, "Oh, it could be this, this, this."

Yeah, I think we all face those anxieties as this little person who we just are so involved in, and care so much about, and don't want to mess things up on, that we might overthink certain things. So I think that happens to everyone, regardless of whether you're in the medical profession or not.

Mitch: So one of the things that I'm finding really interesting hearing about this kind of dialogue is being someone who has not really thought about kids much. When I was younger, there were some medical things going on. I was told I might not be able to have them, etc. If you were to have talked to me a couple years ago about any of this, I probably would not have been interested. I just would've been like, "Uh-huh. Babies."

Scot: Even with Troy?

Mitch: Even with Troy. I would've . . .

Troy: No offense, Mitch. I would've felt the same way.

Mitch: I would've been appreciative of his excitement. But me, myself, I'd be like, "Cool. Let's see what else we can talk about."

But in the last few years . . . We made the joke about nieces and nephews, and I have some, and I've interacted with them. I was the youngest of my family. I didn't have babies to hold, and there was no real child interaction until just recently in my life. And there's kind of an excitement about it, right? They're new. They're trying new things out.

And so it's so exciting to hear Troy, someone I've worked with, someone that I care about, my friend, having these things for his own baby, and his own experience. So it's different and I appreciate it.

Troy: Well, thanks, Mitch. I will say that, too, in terms of what other people have said . . . and I've heard it for forever. Everyone has always said, "When you have kids, it completely changes your life." I never heard anyone say it changes your life for the better. They always just said it changes your life. I feel like my life is a lot better. I love it.

Scot: Oh, that's awesome.

Troy: This has been good. I will say this has been great. It has absolutely been a huge change.

And it's so funny because that weekend she was born . . . She wasn't due for another week. We had planned out at least five different activities we were going to do that weekend. We were going to go to the symphony. There was a Gorillaz concert that Monday. We were going to go to that. We didn't buy any tickets. We were just like, "We're going to wait until an hour before." So obviously we canceled all . . . we didn't do any of those things.

We haven't gone to any concerts, no shows, nothing like that since then. It completely changes your life. There's no question. But those are minor things.

Scot: The trade-off is worth it.

Troy: It's well worth it. I'm absolutely enjoying it.

Scot: All right. Well, let's jump to the Core Four check-in, because fatherhood does change a lot of things, right? Your life is flipped, turned upside down. And sometimes it can be hard to maintain some of those things, and a lot of stuff changes. So, Troy, how are you doing with the Core Four? Let's go ahead and start with eating. Has the eating changed at all?

Troy: No, it hasn't, and I feel fortunate there. The one big change I will say early on is that I wasn't eating as much. And it's funny, I actually lost a few pounds in the first month. I think I just wasn't eating as much. Just busy. And then with kind of sleep patterns being off, for me personally, I wasn't eating at night.

So in terms of the time-restricted eating, intermittent fasting, whatever you want to call it, usually I'm doing 12 hours. So then I was actually having nights where I was going 15, 16 hours.

Scot: Without eating? Okay.

Troy: Without eating. So I think that may have been part of it. But it's been good. I have tried to focus on that, on making sure I'm not eating a lot of sweets, or stress eating, or snacking in the middle of the night if I'm up, things like that.

Scot: So you have had to make a conscientious kind of effort?

Troy: Oh, for sure. Yeah, there's no question. And I knew that was potentially going to be an issue with snacking in the middle of the night if I'm up with her, or, like I said, kind of stress eating, turning more to sweets, that kind of stuff. So I have tried to make a conscious effort to say, "Stick with what you're doing." And it's been going well, so that's good.

Scot: How about activity? I think I already know the answer to this. You've been such a dedicated runner, and you've had such a running habit that I'd imagine that it's been pretty easy. Or no?

Troy: I would not say easy, but fortunately, it has been consistent. And I'm still fortunately . . . Again, this had to be a conscious effort, and I feel like we're in a good spot now where I feel like I'm good with keeping going with this. But I really wanted to say, "I'm going to keep doing this and I don't want this to be something that I just give up."

I think it was John Smith . . . He said a couple things that stuck with me. Number one, he said, "With every child, pick one of your hobbies and forget about it. You're going to lose it." So I was like, "I don't want it to be running."

But then he also said . . . He offered to go to Buffalo Wild Wings with me or something. And he said, "You just need to do stuff just so you feel like yourself."

And so kind of tying those two things together, I just thought, "I want to keep running," because when I run, that's how I really feel like myself. I just love that time. I enjoy it. I'm out there with my dog. And so I've been able to keep that going and be consistent.

It's been something with Laura where it's like, "Hey . . ." We both say we want to support each other to do these things we enjoy. She loves going to classes, like exercise classes, fitness classes, so I'm here to help her do that. She helps me to make sure I have the time that I'm going out going running.

Scot: That's awesome.

Troy: So that's been a conscious thing to make sure we're doing that. That's been good.

Scot: Yeah, communicating with your spouse and just planning out how that is going to be possible.

Troy: Yeah, exactly. It is so much more complex when you've got a little one at home, and you're trying to balance childcare and all that. It's a whole lot different than when you're just kind of doing your thing and like, "Hey, maybe I'll go running at 6 this morning. Eh, maybe I'll go running at 7. Maybe 8." It's much different when you're making sure you . . .

So, anyway, so it's just been a matter of organization, and making sure we're communicating, and sticking with what we like to do.

Scot: It takes more work, man.

Troy: Yeah, it does.

Scot: Not only are you bringing more work home with that kid, but it just takes more work doing the things you did before the kid. How about your emotional health? How's that doing?

Troy: It's been good. There certainly has been an element of anxiety. There's no question about it. Anxiety of making sure I'm not doing anything that would ever put her in harm's way, doing anything stupid, anything that . . . I don't know. You just read so much, like, "Put the baby back to sleep. They have to lie on their back. They can't lie on their stomach. Nothing in there that could suffocate them." I can't have any blankets in there, no toys. Stuff like that. I don't want to do anything like that, and I want to know everything I need to do to make sure there's nothing that could potentially harm her.

And these are just little tiny things. I'm not talking about dropping the baby. I'm talking about making sure there's not a blanket that she could somehow bunch up in her face and suffocate. So there's definitely that element of anxiety, and I think every parent experiences that.

So, yeah, from an emotional health standpoint, I think a little more anxiety. But at the same time, I think there have been so many positive things from an emotional health standpoint too. Just the reward and joy in being able to interact with her.

You asked about running and fitness. I think this kind of thing brings so much more meaning to just health and diet and all those things, just because I want to be a healthy dad for her. I want to be healthy. I want to be here for her in the long-term. I want to stay healthy. It's not just about me running marathons or trying to qualify. I want to keep running because I want to stay healthy.

A lot of things we talked about on the podcast have had a lot more meaning as I've thought about those in terms of just healthy lifestyle, and being healthy, and doing that for her too.

Scot: So there's a lot of extra overhead you have to deal with. If you think of the mind . . . And this is just an analogy, right? It's flawed like all analogies. But if you think of the mind as a computer, everything you have to keep track of is just another processing unit, right? You've added so much more, all the things you talk about that you're just trying to pay attention to make sure that your child is safe. So that kind of fills the cup.

Are you doing anything additional to help with your mental health or help bring a little bit of relaxation from that kind of anxiety or that stress?

Troy: I've been watching a ton of sports.

Scot: That's what you do, huh?

Troy: Watch so many sports. And it's been a great time to have a baby. The month of October and November, it's just like sports heaven. There was the World Series. NBA starts up. College football and NFL are in full swing. That's kind of my release in a lot of ways, watching sports. It's distracting.

Scot: It helps turn your brain off for a little bit.

Troy: Yeah, it turns the brain off. Yeah. And it's fun too, because it's time we're kind spending together. I'm carrying her around, have the TV on, walking around with her with the little pack on, and she really enjoys that. And so, yeah, that's probably been my thing.

But you're right, I think you do need that sort of release where you just be . . . And not to go down on the dark side, but you have to be aware that some people, it just becomes so overwhelming. And the sad part is, again, as a healthcare practitioner, I've seen the cases where it's become completely overwhelming and you see the shaken babies and you see those who have been abused, and it is just absolutely horrible. And you just ask what led to that? How did people get to that point? I don't know all the dynamics there.

And then there's postpartum depression. We've talked about it in men, as well as in women. So that's something. And I worried about that going into this. I wondered, "Is Laura going to experience this? Am I going to experience this?" I've had many patients in the ER, women in particular, who have experienced postpartum depression.

So, again, I think you do have to have that release. You do have to have those other things where it's a distraction. And we've tried to have other activities, like planning activities every week with her where we're going out on walks. We're planning this week to go do this little drive-through Christmas light thing where you drive through and see Christmas lights. Just little things like that that you can look forward to, activities you can do together.

And as I'm saying this, I kind of feel like a jerk. I'm sounding like I know what I'm doing. I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. Let me just say that up front.

Scot: Fair enough.

Troy: I have no idea what I'm doing. We're just trying to figure this out. But this seems to be working. And again, two months into it, so far, so good.

Scot: Yeah. And I think the important message is I think sometimes people feel guilty if they're not 100% with the new child all the time. But you still do have to take time for yourself, whether that's something you enjoy doing, or just even some downtime where you can just turn the brain off for a little bit.

And if you're having struggles with that, that's an important thing to talk to a professional about and get some tools to help work through that.

Troy: That's it. And I've had to tell myself that a few times. I've had to just say to myself, "If I'm not in a good place emotionally, I cannot be emotionally available to help her out." I've got to be in a good place. Laura needs to be in a good place. I think every parent needs that.

Yeah, you've got to be able to . . . whatever that means. Like you said, if you need professional help, if you're just turning to family members, whatever, friends, to get some help, being able to . . .

Scot: No shame in it.

Troy: Yeah, no shame at all. You've got to be the best parent you can, and that's how you do it. You've got to be in a good place emotionally.

Scot: All right. Core Four check-in, the last one. I think I know what the answer to this one is going to be. That's why I saved it until last. Sleep.

Troy: Sleep. Again, this whole process has been so pleasantly surprising. I dreaded the sleep piece of this just because I've struggled so much with sleep. I really just thought, "This is going to be awful. We're not going to sleep."

So what we did very early on in the first couple days is we decided we're going to split up the night shift. So Laura took the 9:30 p.m. to 3:30 a.m. shift, and I took the 3:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. shift. And I set my alarm. Every night at 3:30, I got up, took over for her. I was then able to bottle-feed her. Laura had dedicated sleep time. At that point, she was feeding like every hour or two. She wanted to eat, and she needed to eat. She's growing a ton. So that's how we did it.

We did that for six weeks. And then at that point, she got to a point where she's sleeping more consistently and much longer stretches. So we haven't done that since then.

And Laura . . . thank you, Laura . . . has been the one who gets up with her at night now, which some nights it may be once or twice, fortunately.

But it was interesting doing that regular sleep schedule. So I was falling asleep at like 9:30, sometimes 9:00 before Laura's shift started. Doing that consistently, it actually worked out pretty well.

And I thought a lot about what Kelly Barron talked about, about sleep hunger. If I've ever had trouble falling asleep before, I now know if I get up every morning at 3:30, I will not have trouble falling asleep because I had no trouble falling asleep.

So it actually worked out pretty well, where just having that regular sleep schedule . . . It was kind of nice in a way. It was always tough to get up that early, but . . .

Scot: But it's consistent, which is . . .

Troy: It's consistent.

Scot: . . . not a thing you've ever really had before.

Troy: Yeah. I mean, in stretches I . . .

Scot: You're taking the male paternity.

Troy: Yeah, exactly.

Scot: Do you get crap for that from the other guys?

Troy: I sure do.

Scot: Do you?

Troy: Sometimes it's very subtle, like, "Wow, they didn't have that when I had my baby."

Scot: "Well, yeah, how lucky am I?"

Troy: I'm like, "I'm so glad I have it." So I'm very fortunate. Yeah, I have been on paternity leave. That's something the university offers, and I am so grateful for that. This would've been much different trying to do crazy shifts along with this for the last two months.

Scot: And it's something that not everybody has, so it's just one of those great things.

Troy: I know. I mean, that being said, I think most people, at least you can . . . Yeah, you take FMLA time, but . . .

Scot: It's whether you get paid.

Troy: I mean, I get paid. Yeah. For me, it's like eight weeks. Well, it's really six weeks paid, and then two weeks of just leave. That's technically how it works out.

Scot: You highly recommend it if it's available to people and they can make it work.

Troy: I will say that. I will tell anyone if you have that option, take it with no shame whatsoever. Do not feel ashamed. Do not feel you have an obligation as a man, because you're a man, to say, "Well, I'm not going to take it because I'm a man. I'm going to keep showing up at work. I'm not going to take paternity leave." Absolutely take it.

And I think it's a number of reasons. Number one, I feel like it's really helped me to be available to kind of do that shift schedule and help Laura out. It's been great for just being there with Addie, with my baby, to bond with her.

But then also, we've kind of been a little bit isolated. We're not really going out. And this is something our pediatrician told us, like, "Keep your circle tight. Don't be going out and doing a lot of things out in public. There's a lot of flu. There's a lot of RSV. There's COVID."

So it's been, I think, a good thing for her health too, where her immune system is very susceptible, where we've just got kind of our tight little circle here and we're not out in public a lot.

I think, again, don't be ashamed to take that time off for a number of reasons.

Scot: All right. As we wrap up this episode, what would you like to learn from our experts? Do you have any experts you'd like to have on the show to talk about dad issues?

Troy: We need pediatricians on here. I think every episode we have going forward should be pediatricians. What do I expect three months, four months? I know that's not practical.

I would love to have Kirtly on here more. I think she's so insightful. I thought so much back to what she talked about with pregnancy, and what to expect, and how to be emotionally available. And I think that's a really important thing going forward. How do you continue to do that as a husband and a parent?

Beyond that, I think diet and exercise are always going to be a challenge, because there are going to be different challenges at every phase of her life in terms of just her needs and the time investment. So I think anything we can continue to talk about there. It's just a great reminder and motivation to keep focusing on those things.

Scot: Yeah, reminder to keep focusing on maybe ways to make it simpler, or easier, or less time consuming, which isn't always possible. I mean, you can only shave it down so far. But those are good insights.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Well, Troy, congratulations.

Mitch: Yeah.

Troy: Yeah, thank you.

Scot: I'm so excited and happy for you, and every time your wife posts pictures on Facebook, I love it.

Troy: So many pictures. So many.

Scot: That's all right. It's a well-documented growing up she'll have.

Troy: There's no question about that. Yeah, no doubt.

Scot: All right. Well, Troy, thanks for sharing your insights about being a new dad. I hope that that is helpful to you if you're a new dad, and maybe you can take one of the things Troy talked about and apply that when you are expecting your child, whether that's, "Listen, I've got to make a conscientious effort to make sure that I still exercise, or that I find something that I can do that gives me a little break with my brain for a few minutes a day."

What were some of the other things you talked about? Don't have those stress foods in the house if you think you're going to eat them. But on the other hand, if you need some stress food sometimes, then go for it.

Troy: Yeah, go get those Oreos.

Scot: Everything is just kind of in the middle, in balance and moderation.

Troy, congratulations on being a new dad. Thanks for sharing your experience, and thanks for caring about men's health.

Troy: Thank you, and thanks for talking to me about it. Like you said, it's fun to talk about it. And this is the most I have talked about it since she was born and it's really fun to talk about it. So I appreciate you listening to me and letting me chat about it.
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Scot: Hey, Mitch. Troy's got an announcement that he wants to make, something he wants to tell us.

Mitch: Oh, really?

Scot: Are you excited about it?

Mitch: I'm quite excited. I always love surprise announcements.

Scot: All right, Troy. What's the big announcement?

Troy: Well, Mitch, I'm going to preface this by saying, do you remember that episode we did a while ago about Dr. Turok's male contraceptive gel?

Mitch: Yes.

Troy: It doesn't work.

Mitch: Oh, no.

Troy: I'm just kidding. I was not part of his study. But I'm having a baby. My wife and I are having a baby.

Dr. Jones: Yay. Congratulations.

Troy: This is our first child.

Dr. Jones: Congratulations. Oh, are you in for a ride.

Troy: Oh, I don't think I have any idea what I'm in for. I'm extremely excited. Yeah, honestly couldn't be more excited, but definitely a bit nervous. Baby is due in September. We are just super excited. And I have to tell you the way we announced this baby, and I think, Scot, the way you found out.

Scot: I mean, I'd kind of call it finding out. There were still a lot of questions.

Mitch: Exactly.

Troy: Like, "Really, is this a joke?" Yeah, so we ran . . . Laura had this all planned out. When she told me, I came home from this late shift at 3 in the morning, and she gave me this gift bag that had the positive pregnancy test, said, "Hey, it's an early birthday present." I opened it and was like, "You've got to be kidding me. Wow."

And so, anyway, she had planned this out. We had already planned a marathon. She ran in a shirt that said, "Baby's first marathon," and then sent the picture out to the family and it took them forever to figure it out. I had to then send a close-up of the picture, and still no one responded.

And then I had to say something that says, "I promise this is not a late April Fool's joke," because it was April 2nd. And finally my sister-in-law, not any blood relatives, my sister-in-law figured it out and said, "Wow, you're having a baby." So baby is on the way. We're super excited. Yeah, due in September.

Dr. Jones: Wow. That is going to be wonderful. It's wonderful.

Scot: Today on "Who Cares About Men's Health," we thought maybe you might be able to use a little bit of help. I think as guys . . . I don't know. I can only speak for myself and men that I've observed. It seems like during that nine months we are like, "Well, we don't really have much to do."

Troy: Yeah. "This is easy."

Scot: But maybe we should be looking for something to do. I don't know. So that's what we're going to talk about today. It's the "Soon to be Dad" episode. "Who Cares About Men's Health" is about information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health. Today's crew, as usual, he brings the MD, Dr. Troy Madsen, and dad-to-be.

Troy: That's right. Bringing the MD and bringing the baby soon.

Scot: Bringing the MD and the D-A-D.

Troy: D-A-D.

Scot: I bring the BS. My name is Scot Singpiel. And Mitch Sears just generally makes the podcast better. Mitch, how you doing?

Mitch: I'm doing pretty good. I'm excited for Troy.

Scot: All right.

Troy: Thanks, Mitch.

Scot: And Dr. Kirtly Jones is an OBGYN. She is part of our scoperadio.com family. She does the "7 Domains of Women's Health" podcast. And she is an expert on this sort of thing, not only the technical aspects, but also from maybe what your partner might want. Any dad-to-be support mechanism that you might be offering? I don't know. We're going to find that out.

So, Dr. Jones, do you find that the statement I made about guys during those nine months just kind of think, "Well, I really don't have much to do," true or not? Should we be thinking that? What's your take on that?

Dr. Jones: Well, it can be, but you shouldn't be thinking that. So in the first trimester, and we don't know exactly where Troy and his partner are in their trimesters, it can be pretty rocky because there can be a lot of nausea. And so, when someone is throwing up all the time and they can't eat, there are things . . . First of all, you feel a little guilty because you are half of this creation, but not the part that throws up all the time.

There is something called couvade syndrome where men experience all the symptoms of the pregnancy. They even go into labor. There's a special hut for them. So in some cultures, the men act out all the symptoms of nausea, and vomiting, and back pain, and you name it, and then labor. And then the women just go on about their lives and work in the fields, etc., and raise the kids.

So men can walk away and we know all over the world men walk away from a pregnancy, leaving the pregnant person to deal with all of it. But if you're a pair, and if you're listening to someone throw up all morning, it would be, "What kinds of things can I bring to you? What kinds of things can we have in the house that might make your tummy settle a little bit better?" That's kind of helpful. "I heard that ginger worked for you. I've been reading up about this. Can I bring you some ginger?"

Scot: Troy, would you like to practice that? I'd like to hear you say that.

Troy: I'm just fascinated by this couvade syndrome. So these are men who are actually experiencing all the symptoms of pregnancy? And they're not doing this consciously, it sounds like. They're actually experiencing this.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. It's not a common thing. It's in some cultures and not in others. So clearly there are issues. Some partners want to go over the top and order everything by the time they're 12 weeks, and you've got hundreds of dollars of baby carriers. Guess who gets to pay for it, maybe?

So how much are you going to be in the physical domain? And in the physical domain, your partner is probably going to be experiencing whatever she might be experiencing, but being supportive, like, "Can I help you lift that? I know your back has been really sore. This is getting farther in pregnancy."

If she says, "Gee, I want to go skydiving," you're not going to say, "Is that the best idea?" There are some things that she won't do with you or she won't feel like doing with you.

So by trimester, first trimester is nausea, vomiting, the things that happen physically that you could be helpful with in terms of just saying, "Oh, gosh, that's so awful," and maybe, "Tell me what I can do to help."

Scot: Let me jump in quickly. So we also sent an email around to some women who just recently had babies in the office. And the thing you just said was one of the answers that came back. It said, "I think, for me, it's knowing how . . ." This is what they wish that their husbands knew.

"I think, for me, it's knowing how difficult pregnancy can actually be for women. There were some days I couldn't get out of bed because I was so tired or sick, and my husband didn't really understand at first what was going on. He thought I could just do the same things I did before pregnancy. Eventually, he got it, but pregnancy can do wild things to your body that I think a lot of men don't understand."

Dr. Jones: And it can do wild things to your emotional life as well. So people can feel overwhelmed. They can cry easily. Things about mommy hormones. So just being understanding that things are not going to be the same, and the pregnancy is just the first nine months of the rest of your life that's not going to be the same.

Troy: That's encouraging.

Scot: I was going to say we're like three minutes in. How do you feel now?

Troy: I know. I'm kind of speechless really. But we are in the second trimester now, so things . . .

Dr. Jones: Things are pretty good now.

Troy: Yeah. Laura really had a great first trimester. Definitely the fatigue and nausea. I tried to offer what I could. I'll tell you, just being the very independent person that she is, she did go out and buy all of those things for nausea herself, and I should've done that for her, but . . .

Dr. Jones: No, no, no.

Troy: Yeah, she had her stockpile.

Dr. Jones: You can just say, "Wow, good for you. You're doing an amazing job."

Troy: Right. But yeah, certainly she had plenty of nights where she was just very, very tired, and just fatigued, and didn't have a lot of energy, and just needed a lot of sleep.

It is definitely a process, though, of understanding that and really trying to kind of understand exactly what the other person is feeling, and the emotional impact of this as well. Like you said, definitely a process of trying to figure that out, especially for someone who's going through this for the first time.

Dr. Jones: Women lose their entire sense of their bodies, and some people relish this whole transformation of their body, but some people don't. "Gee, does this baby make me look fat?" So I think it's how do you approach the change in your beloved's body? And mostly you just say, "I think you look strong. I think you look wonderful."

Women often feel quite insecure about the changes in their body, and it's appropriate because they've been invaded, and just being supportive in how they may not feel quite themselves. "What can I do? What can I do to help?"

And then, of course, in the third trimester, when someone is carrying 20 . . . It's like carrying a fanny pack that's got 25 or 30 pounds on your . . . not on your fanny, but in front of you. So you could imagine carrying a 30-pound pack on your waist in front of you. It puts you off balance, and your back can get sore, and you have reflux, and you have heartburn. Some people have problems with carpal tunnel and other things. It's just saying, "What can I do to help? What can make it better?"

Scot: Troy, practice that. Let's hear you.

Mitch: Right now, I want to hear it.

Troy: Yeah. What can I do to help, and what can make it better?

Scot: Yeah. There you go.

Troy: There you go. Yeah. And I think for me, too, a lot of it has been trying to just even identify those things without having to even ask that question. Just looking around and saying . . . As we've talked about before on this podcast, we tend to have a lot of animals at our house. We foster a lot of animals. It's her job. She's the director of an animal rescue group. So just trying to say, "Hey, I'm just going to clean up after these animals and do what I can here to help out."

I find it's a little bit of a tough balance because, like I said, Laura is a very strong, independent woman, and I don't want to come off as patronizing in any way either, like saying, "Well, you're pregnant. You really shouldn't be lifting that," things like that. She's going to lift these animal crates, and she's going to do this stuff. So I do find it is a little bit of a balance there too of . . .

Dr. Jones: Oh, absolutely. And if someone is getting cranky, all you need is someone telling you what you should be doing or shouldn't be doing. By the way, do you foster cats?

Troy: We do.

Dr. Jones: Great. Do I need to give you the toxo talk?

Troy: We're well aware. Yes. I've been cleaning all the litter boxes and . . .

Dr. Jones: There you go.

Troy: Yeah. I am the designated poop scooper in this home. Litter boxes, dog poop, you name it. That's my specialty.

Scot: Troy, we brought Dr. Jones on not just so we could tell you what we think you should do, but so you could also ask questions. I mean, why have a podcast if you're not going to utilize it to your own benefit once in a while? Lord knows we've done it with this one, so . . .

Troy: Oh, I know.

Scot: Did you have anything that you wanted to ask Dr. Jones about? She is really the expert on all of this.

Troy: So many questions. As I've read about pregnancy, I kind of feel like we're in the eye of the storm right now. It sounds like the first trimester obviously can be pretty rocky, and Laura did great and did not really have any significant vomiting, but some nausea, fatigue. And now everything just feels good, and everything is going well. What's coming up next? What's the third trimester going to be like?

Dr. Jones: Oh, it's that 30-pound pack that's hanging off your belt. So, number one, if everything is going well, and her blood pressure stays wonderful, and she doesn't have any leaking of her amniotic fluid, and it's a perfectly healthy pregnancy, it still is . . . people tend to feel a little bit more fatigued. It's hard to find a nice place in bed, because you're kind of rocking and rolling trying to find a nice place.

And of course, she's going to be very pregnant in the hottest months of the summer, and so finding a cool space in your bedroom is going to be important if she wants it.

And then when it gets to lifting the 30 pounds that's on her waist, and then anything else, just say, "How can I help? What can I do?"

So I think probably she's strong. Anybody who just ran a marathon in pregnancy is very strong, and she's probably going to cruise through her third trimester really well. Not all women do that. For some women, they have back pain, headaches, carpal tunnel, swelling feet, things that make them feel enormously uncomfortable, and then there's labor.

Troy: Probably the most intimidating part to me is thinking about that process, labor, and what to expect there, and how do you deal if there are complications. And again, the challenge for me is I just see everything that goes wrong with everybody's lives.

Scot: In the ER, yeah.

Troy: In the ER, yeah. I do, and I see the bad outcomes. I will tell you, I had a very emotional experience recently, and it's just crazy the timing of this, of caring for a baby who just was delivered right outside the door of the ER. With a baby on the way, that's something else. I mean, you try to push your emotions aside.

And fortunately, everything went beautifully, could not have gone better. But 6 a.m. on a night shift to have that happen. So I definitely have felt the impact of this emotionally where before I might not have felt that as much. I was like, "Oh, wow."

Dr. Jones: So you felt different?

Troy: Oh, yeah. No question about it.

Dr. Jones: So you already are emotionally a new guy. You're a new guy because of what's happening.

Troy: Oh, without a doubt.

Dr. Jones: And it wasn't a cognitive choice. It just happened.

Troy: Yeah, without question. So I guess in terms of when labor comes and when that time comes, what do we expect at that point? What do I expect as a father-to-be, and how can I be supportive through that process?

Dr. Jones: Well, I think that's another situation where you're going to need to take your partner's lead on this. For some women, they want to take classes, they want their husband there doing back massage, they want someone helping them do counting with them.

My husband actually, as a neurologist, had some experience in hypnosis. So he and I practiced hypnosis, and he did hypnosis through the first 20 hours of my labor until the 11.5-pound baby was really not going to fit, and we had the baby, had a C-section.

But he was right there for me. And it was hard watching someone who's completely in control all the time and needs to be in control lose it. So it's just being there. But let her ask you. Let her tell you.

The paradigm that you see on TV, which I've seen so many times, is the couple are working together, they're doing great, and then she gets in this magic situation called transition when it's just before she's ready to push, and she's screaming, "Get out of the room. I never want to see you again. Don't you dare touch me." You guys have seen that on TV, haven't you?

Scot: Oh, yeah.

Troy: I've seen it in person, yeah. In emergency medicine, I've had to deliver at least 10 babies. I spent a month on OB, and I've seen it all. So when I say I've been there . . . But it's so different as a healthcare provider, and then when you're there and seeing this person you love and you care about go through this, I think that's the challenging part.

Dr. Jones: It is.

Troy: How am I going approach this? And obviously, there's that part of me that can very easily switch into clinical mode and doctor mode, and I don't want to do that. I don't want to try and be the doctor in the room and trying to be very unemotional or clinical. But at the same time, I'm concerned that I will feel a little overwhelmed by this as well.

Dr. Jones: You will, and you should. It's overwhelming.

Scot: Overwhelming how?

Troy: I'm sure I'm going to experience a lot of anxiety going into this and, "Is everything going to go well? How are things going to turn out?" Certainly a lot of very deep empathy for Laura as she's going through the labor process, and just wanting to do anything I possibly can to ease that process for her, and wanting to be available to her to whatever I can offer.

Yeah, there's going to be that excitement leading up to it, just the anticipation of this new baby. I'm concerned about feeling overwhelmed with this. Like I said, I'm the kind of person who likes to keep my emotions in check, no doubt.

Scot: If you are moved to cry . . . Are you going to be in the room during the delivery?

Troy: Oh, I'm sure I will, yeah. I joked with Laura that I'm going to deliver the baby, but she didn't like that idea. I told her, "I'm an expert. I've done this. Trust me."

Dr. Jones: Ten times.

Scot: Is that because you want to save some money? Is that what you're trying to do?

Troy: Exactly. We're going to save a little cash on this kid, avoid the hospital copay.

Scot: That's right. Some guys do their own plumbing. Troy delivers his own kids.

Troy: "I got this. I got this."

Scot: If you find yourself emotional, like where you might cry because it's such a beautiful moment, are you going to fight that back, or are you going to let that happen? And, Dr. Jones, what do you think about that? Is that what a guy should do or not?

Troy: Scot, I would love to tell you I'm just going to let the tears flow, but I know myself too well, and I'm going to try and hold them back. I'm going to do the same thing I did when we first had our ultrasound at 14 weeks, and I saw that baby and that image of the baby. Laura looked over at me, and I sure tried to hold them back. And afterwards she said, "Were you crying?" I said, "No, I wasn't. Of course not. Why would I do that? Eh, maybe a little bit." So I'm sure I'll try and hold it back.

Dr. Jones: Well, even if you do, you can say, "Well, I'm overwhelmed." You don't have to let the tears fall if they're not right for you. I mean, we've seen it all. And sometimes the experience is totally scary. It is very scary. And of course, I'm a former OB, so I also think of all the things that can go wrong. And a first baby, it just never always goes as you hope. It's just a little different in some way than you hope.

But what you want is you want to be with a team that you completely trust, and that's the biggest thing. Whoever is there with you, wherever you choose to have this baby, you want to be with a team that's going to be there for you. So you don't have to be the doctor in the room.

Scot: Now we're going from Troy being DIY to Troy recruiting like he's the general contractor. He's recruiting his crew. Going around to his friends.

Troy: I've already done that. As soon as Laura told me that night, the next morning I emailed someone I know well who's done lectures for our residents, who has been the OB for several of my friends and colleagues, and I emailed her that first morning and said, "Please, I'm scared." I didn't say, "I'm scared," but I'm sure she could tell I was scared. I was like, "Will you be our OB?" And she was wonderful and got right back to me. Yeah, I'm very happy to be working with her and have her caring for us and for our baby.

Dr. Jones: Good. Well, I think that you are . . . you know what's going to happen. You're going to let her run the agenda as she's pregnant in terms of asking you for what you need, and letting her know that, within the limits of you taking weird hours and call, you're going to be there for her.

And then what happens is after the baby is born, the first couple of months, where there's a baby up all the time, do you help out with that? Does she help out with that? How much breastfeeding are you going to do?

Scot: Yeah, Troy, do you help out with that?

Troy: I'm planning to, trust me. I'm all in on this, and she's made it clear I'm helping out with this too.

Mitch: I mean, he's already a poop scooper.

Troy: I'm already a poop scooper. Diapers are going to be easy. That's going to be a piece of cake. That will be a relief from what I usually have to deal with.

Scot: Dr. Jones, I cut you off a little bit there. You were leading into breastfeeding. Where's Troy's involvement in that, though? He can't help there, can he?

Mitch: Yeah, that's actually one of the questions from our new moms, was how do men help during that process?

Dr. Jones: Well, they can bring the baby. So if they're not co-sleeping, and there are lots of opinions about whether babies should sleep in the bed, but if the baby is in a crib nearby, you go get the baby, you can change the diapers for the baby, the mom can breastfeed and put . . . How you work that out is a rhythm that every couple establishes.

Troy, you're used to sleep deprivation. And maybe your partner is really good at it, maybe she's not. So how you begin to juggle that is something that each couple finds their own way. I'm sure you're going to do great. That's the reality, is when there's love, you guys will do just fine.

Troy: Yeah. Again, for me going into this . . . And we've talked a bit about how this is going to look once the baby is born, and how all that works. That's kind of the approach I'm trying to take. I'm going to be available. I'm very fortunate that working through the university, I do get paternity leave. I'm absolutely taking it, and I want to do everything I can to help Laura, whatever it means in terms of sleep deprivation or getting up in the middle of the night.

And like you said, my hope is just that we can figure out how that works and how that looks exactly over those first couple of weeks. And I guess that'd be my question, too. Do most couples then . . .

Dr. Jones: Couple of months.

Troy: It's a couple of months to find that pattern? Okay.

Dr. Jones: Well, the baby is always changing. So they call the first three months of a baby's life who's born at term the fourth trimester, because they are still on truly autonomic phase. They just sleep, and poop, and eat, and that's about all they do. And then at about 2.5 to 3 months, they come up with a smile and then everything is perfect as soon as they smile at you.

But it's hard because just when you think you've got Plan A, the baby has changed, and then you have to say, "Oh, I guess we're going to work with Plan B." It's just being flexible.

It's being aware that moms don't always feel on top of their game emotionally after a baby is born. They can feel kind of overwhelmed. They can feel like their independence is gone. Some women have postpartum. Everybody gets baby blues. It's a period of a day, or two, or maybe even a week when they say, "Oh, this is really hard." But postpartum depression affects a lot of women, 20%, when Mom's mood isn't really enough, isn't up to the task, and she needs more support.

You just kind of have to be aware and ask her, "How are you feeling? Is there anything I could do for you today?" As long as you're talking, as long as you're emotionally available to each other, you'll do it fine. It's amazing. It's the last refuge of the rank amateur of this parenting thing.

Troy: The last refuge of the rank amateur.

Dr. Jones: Right. So do you know if you're having a boy or a girl?

Troy: This is a girl.

Dr. Jones: Congratulations.

Troy: A baby girl on the way.

Scot: Really?

Troy: Yeah, a baby girl.

Dr. Jones: Wow. Congratulations, It's just magical. It's going to be just magical. Not that boys aren't magical too. They both are.

Scot: Are you sure about that? I was wondering this morning, I was like, "I bet you they're going to have a boy."

Mitch: Yeah, same.

Scot: I mean, might want to double-check that.

Troy: We've got another ultrasound coming up shortly, so we'll have them take another look, make sure they got it right. They seem pretty confident.

Scot: Yeah. So there was one other one. It's "Should new dads go to the appointments during pregnancy and after?"

Dr. Jones: I think that's what the partner wants. My husband was a resident. I was not going to have him . . . This was in the old days when residents never, ever, ever . . . they didn't have an IV, and if they didn't have . . . straight out of the operating room. They did not miss a day. So I was not going to ask him to go to any of my appointments. I think you do what she wants.

Troy: Yeah. And she's asked me to go, and I've been able to go with her. So, again, yeah, you're right. I think it just depends on your situation.

Scot: And what's your role in those appointments then? Is it just to be there? Is it to remember things that have been talked about?

Troy: I mean, I think my role has been more just to be there with her, and I really have tried not to . . . Again, avoiding going into doctor role. I've been trying to just be there as husband and future father and just be there with her. I've tried not to ask a lot of questions or anything like that. Let her ask the questions she wants to ask. Let her OB talk to her, and not feel like she has to be talking to me because I'm the other doctor in the room or anything like that. But yeah, it's really been just being there. And that's what it's been so far, just being there with her and she . . .

Dr. Jones: Well, if you have a question, it's a good thing. I mean, I really liked it when husbands had questions. So if you have something to ask, then it's appropriate to ask.

Troy: Yeah, for sure. And the good news is everything has been so straightforward so far. I really haven't had to ask anything, and Laura has asked the questions I think that needed to be asked.

Scot: Oh, you're grading her now?

Mitch: That's what I was going to say, yeah.

Scot: She's asked the questions that she needed to ask.

Troy: I had my checklist in my mind and she passed.

Mitch: Backseat doctoring.

Troy: Not at all. I mean, I think they were just questions that we talked about beforehand that she had. And that's probably why I'm there too, because she may have had some questions in her mind. But yeah, we really have talked a lot about those things beforehand, and she's asked me questions.

And then in this case, I don't want to be the doctor to my baby or to my wife, so I've just provided my opinion but have tried not to steer the conversation when we're with the OB.

Dr. Jones: Of course. You're a natural already.

Troy: I wish. I feel far from it. Like I said, I feel inadequate. That's how we started this episode. That's probably a good summary.

Dr. Jones: Thank you for using your words.

Troy: Yes. I feel inadequate. That would be the absolute best word to describe how I feel.

Scot: Congratulations, Troy.

Troy: Thank you.

Scot: Yeah. On behalf of Mitch and myself, this is your baby present.

Dr. Jones: Oh, great.

Troy: I could not have asked for a better gift. This is my man shower. You guys just held a man shower for me. I couldn't have asked for a better man shower.

Scot: Yes. Dr. Jones, thank you so much for being on the podcast and talking to our nervous new dad, and thanks for caring about men's health.

Dr. Jones: What a treat. Talk to you soon.

Troy: Thank you.

Dr. Jones: Bye.