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Dr. Chan: How does a person's little brother inspire them to become a pediatrician at the ripe old age of 15? What's it like growing up African American in American Fork, Utah, and becoming more resilient and driven because of it? Is it possible to still be a sports aficionado and a busy medical student at the same time?

Today, on "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," I interview Eddie, a first-year medical student here at The University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world, this is "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," with your host, the Dean of Admissions at The University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Well, welcome to another edition of "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life." I've got a fantastic guest today, Eddie, first-year student. How are you doing?

Eddie: Doing so good.

Dr. Chan: Good. Great. And it sounds like school is . . . you're right in the middle of finals, it sounds like?

Eddie: Getting close. So next week we start off with our finals. We have one on Monday, two Wednesday, one Friday.

Dr. Chan: That's a lot.

Eddie: Yes.

Dr. Chan: That's a lot. All right. Before we get into it, let's go back. Time machine. Let's go back to the beginning. When did you decide to become a doctor? How old were you and what was going on?

Eddie: I was about 14, 15. I was about 15 years old. And I have an interesting story about how that came about.

Dr. Chan: Well, that's why you're here. Let's hear it.

Eddie: Exactly. But mine came about because of my little brother. He's 16 now, so he was only 2 when the idea popped into my head. And I grew up . . . I'm the oldest of five. Single-parent family. And so . . .

Dr. Chan: And where's this at?

Eddie: American Fork.

Dr. Chan: American Fork.

Eddie: Yeah. So I grew up in American Fork, Utah.

Dr. Chan: All right.

Eddie: Yeah, just a single-parent family. So I was kind of the dad from like age 4 or so. And so had a lot of responsibilities on my plate. And you grow up a little bit quick and you don't get that childhood that you want.

And when my little brother was born, he was just my only little brother, and me and him just connected quickly. When he was about 2 years old, I just saw how much joy that childhood has. And me and him would play, we would run around, we had the best time ever. And it was just so fun because, yeah, I got to see the innocence of childhood. I got to see what having a childhood is like. And so there was something that just drew me to that, drew me to kids, drew me to helping individuals that didn't get to have what I . . . or that get to have what I didn't.

And so I remember talking to a friend, and I was always captivated by the body. We're just very complex individuals. How the body works is just very fascinating to me. And I had a friend tell me . . . she's like, "You know, I'm thinking about becoming a pediatrician." I'm like, "What in the world? I've never heard that word. What is that?" And she's like, "It's a kid doctor." I'm like, "Hmm." I looked into it, I researched it, and I'm like, "You know what?" Something just sparked inside me. I'm like, "That's going to be my journey. I'm going to try to become a pediatrician."

And as I've gotten older and over the years of this journey, I've seen the disparities that occur in medicine and that's driven me even more. Growing up in Utah, being a minority, and African American especially in Utah, there's not many out there. And so I didn't get a lot of exposure to what the disparities among African Americans are like, but just seeing it among just minorities in general, it drew me to wanting to help. And that desire to help others to get what I didn't was something that just drove the . . . it was a driving force.

Dr. Chan: It gave you the fire to keep on going.

Eddie: Oh, yeah. And it just kept growing. My little brother sparked it, and then after that, it just kept going and going.

Dr. Chan: Was he sick a lot?

Eddie: No, it wasn't even that he was sick. It was just the fact that . . . I had a younger sister that was sick. She had asthma and all sorts of just health issues. She was always in the hospital and stuff, and we didn't get the best healthcare. I mean, I was still younger. I didn't fully understand. But as I did classes and stuff in medicine, like premed, and just even seeing just the problems in the world out there, that was what really just kept my desire to erase these disparities.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Eddie: Because I've always been one that I look . . . I try to be one that can change the future for others. I'm the oldest, so my siblings, I've always been . . . I'm like, "I'm going to set a good path for you so that you don't have to go through what I did." And then all through my undergrad and stuff, I worked with individuals from disadvantaged circumstances to help them and erase those different obstacles that I had to face to get to where I am.

Dr. Chan: You mentioned growing up African American in Utah. What was that like in American Fork?

Eddie: It was interesting. In my graduating . . .

Dr. Chan: I'll bet you have some stories.

Eddie: Oh, so many. Well, when there's not much exposure to a certain culture, there's a lot of cultural insensitivity. I've had things said to me that I'm like, "Wow. I can't believe you just said that to me." And just there are a lot of stereotypes placed upon me.

I love sports. That is probably my favorite pastime, and I was good at it because I practiced and practiced. But they would attribute my being good at sports to because I'm black and stuff, as they would say. I'm like, "No, that has nothing to do with being black just gives me these naturally amazing athletic abilities."

And not only that, even growing up, or going through college and things, I worked my butt off. I got good grades and I'd get scholarships. It's like, "Oh, you just got that because you're black." It's like, "No." They try to attribute my success and things and getting acknowledged for things to being black. And you have to become very resilient, very just dismissive of what they say, because otherwise it could weigh you down.

Dr. Chan: You know, I perceive you have to grow up more quickly.

Eddie: Oh, very much so.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, because you're dealing with comments and what people say much earlier at a younger age.

Eddie: Well, not only that, I've had things said to me that . . . yeah. I remember in elementary school being called certain words and I would just go home crying. I had no idea why people would be saying those things to me.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And then sometimes . . . I work with kids a lot in my child psychiatry job, and sometimes the kids don't know the word, but they know the feeling, like the anger and the venom behind the word. And that can cause the tears, the emotional reaction, as well. So it's fascinating and it's sad that it goes on.

Eddie: Yeah. Well, it even happens now. I remember the first date me and my wife had, me and her were just walking around and I got called certain things and she was just shocked. And I'd been going through it for a while, and so I just . . . I mean, it was just something I dismissed and stuff. But she was pretty distraught. She's like, "I can't believe people would still say things like that." I'm like, "Yeah." You just get used to it. It's ridiculous.

Dr. Chan: Well, Eddie, let's jump up to high school. You're in high school, you're studying hard, and you're getting good grades. Walk me through the decision about how you went through the college application process.

Eddie: Oh my goodness. I'm a first-generation student. I had no idea what I was doing. I still have no idea what I'm doing. It's one of those things where each step I take is just one . . . it's going down a path that a foot has never touched. And so there have been a lot of bumps and bruises and a lot of problems along the way.

And high school was interesting because I always thought I was going to go out of state. I didn't really take any . . . I took plenty of classes. I could have done concurrent enrollment, or AP classes I took. There was one class I didn't take the AP test and other classes I just . . .

I didn't sign up for concurrent enrollment because I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to go to my favorite college, Notre Dame." I was born out that way, and so I thought . . . I was so naive because the application process came about and, like I said, I had no idea what I was doing. I realized, "Oh." Right at the very . . . once I started applying, I'm like, "Wait a second. Tuition, money costs and stuff for going out of state versus in state, no one really told me about this."

Dr. Chan: Notre Dame is expensive, yeah.

Eddie: Yes. And so I was just applying to a few colleges in Utah. Yeah, I had a lot of help. And what's nice is the application process is pretty simple. It walks you through it.

Dr. Chan: Were you trying to find schools that had a good kind of premed program, or were you kind of thinking along those lines back then?

Eddie: Once again, I didn't even realize there was a premed program, that there were certain premed classes you had to take. I just assumed, "Hey, you have to take some science classes in college. You have to do . . ." Well, that's all I really thought. I didn't realize there was an MCAT. I didn't realize there was all the extracurricular things you had to do. Once again, I've been so naive in this process.

And so I started applying to certain schools I felt like I could do well and get in, get scholarships. Because having a single mother raising five kids, I was going to have to pay for myself.

I applied to SUU and got a full ride there. But then I was also playing football and I had Utah State looking at me kind of. And so I applied up there. I got in. I ended up going to Utah State because I was going to play football, but they just wanted . . . I didn't really like the position I was going for.

Dr. Chan: What position were you playing?

Eddie: So I was a really good kicker in high school and they wanted me to kick. I hated it. I love having the ball. I loved catching the ball and getting tackled, or being tackled.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Eddie: And so I played tight end and outside linebacker, and I wanted to go for those positions, but being 5'11" . . . I am a bigger dude, but being 5'11" and playing those positions, it wouldn't work.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Eddie: And so they wanted me to kick. And I remember going up to Utah State and I was a preferred walk-on, so I would have made the team, but it just did not vibe with me. I didn't like the culture, didn't like the type of individuals I'd be around all the time and the time commitment. I felt that I was going to become a doctor. I didn't have time for this. And so it was either school or athletics.

Dr. Chan: And athletics is a full-time job at that time.

Eddie: Yes.

Dr. Chan: I've had a few friends who've played college athletics, football, basketball, track. You know, when they talk about it, it's like, "Wow." The practice time and the commitment, it kind of takes the fun out of the sport. Almost universally, it's a full-time job.

Eddie: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: On top of school.

Eddie: Yeah. So I got there and just I didn't like it, and so then I had a decision, "Do I figure out how to get down to SUU or just stay at Utah State?" And just decided to stay at Utah State.

It was funny because I tried to leave Utah State a couple times, applied down to The U or UVU and stuff. Got in, didn't get the scholarships I got up there, so I just stayed up there. Yeah, that was my journey to . . .

Dr. Chan: So how was it like going from American Fork to Logan?

Eddie: It was different.

Dr. Chan: More snow?

Eddie: It was freezing. I still don't know why I'm in Utah. I do not like the cold. This time of the year is miserable. It's dark all the time. It's cold. I hate it. But I have family here. You know, I got into The U, which I'm like, "You know what? I can't pass this up."

But yeah, going up to Logan was . . . it was a lot different. It's a lot smaller. Growing up in American Fork, it's kind of a smaller field, but you're really close to everything. And Logan, you're not close to anything, and you have to drive through the canyon, and so it was a cultural change.

A lot of outdoors things, but growing up I was a city boy. And so I didn't find a lot of joy doing those things, so that's another reason why it just wasn't my type of place, but there are a lot of excellent things that happened. And some of the life-changing courses that took place, or events, that's happened in Logan. So I am very appreciative for my time up in Logan.

Dr. Chan: And how did the premed activities go? We're not only talking about the science classes, but we're also talking research and community service. What did that look like for you? How did you get involved?

Eddie: So the premed advisor, Yvonne, she was phenomenal. She was . . .

Dr. Chan: Shout-out to Yvonne who is listening right now.

Eddie: Seriously. She saved me. And to get to this point, a lot of the reason why I'm here is because of her. Because once again, I was naive, had no idea what I was doing. Oh my gosh.

First off, the science classes, that was a journey. There were a few of those, they call them "weeding out" classes. And those were fun. Science isn't my strong suit. I'm more of a social science individual. I've always done really well with the human development and sociology, or psychology and stuff. And so those were difficult, but I still got through.

And then the extracurriculars, that's honestly where I truly came to love the premed process. Because I've always been one where I look at, you know, it's important to get to your goal and reach that destination, but it's what you become in the process that is crucial. And it was those extracurricular activities that helped me become the man I am now and developed me to get to this point.

And so I first started off by doing a lot of volunteering. You know, you have those typical volunteering, research, and different paths that a lot of premeds do. And I've always been one where I need to find something I enjoy. If I don't enjoy it, I'm going to have a really rough time doing it and truly loving it. And so I started off at a women's shelter up in Logan.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Eddie: And I volunteered there for about two and a half years, and it was the most incredible . . .

Dr. Chan: Were you doing counseling, or what were you doing?

Eddie: No. I was just helping out with . . . I was on the crisis hotline taking in calls.

Dr. Chan: That's a little counseling.

Eddie: Yeah, I guess, a little bit. Well, actually I did do a little counseling. I did a lot of child counseling. The mothers would go to their women's groups, so I would take all the kids and we would do our own type of children's counseling group setting.

Dr. Chan: Cool.

Eddie: That was phenomenal. I would go back into the shelter and work with families, interact with the kids and mothers, and then just run a bunch of different errands that the shelter needed and assist that way.

But probably my all-time favorite was the . . . let's see. What was it called? Rape Prevention Education. I would go to high schools and they would teach girls protective techniques, like combat . . . I guess combat skills or something in case they . . .

Dr. Chan: Defense skills.

Eddie: Defense skills, there we go. I was trying to find the word.

Dr. Chan: Maneuvers.

Eddie: Yeah. And so I'd get beat up. We would teach them and I'd put on this red padded suit and they would just beat the snot out of me.

Dr. Chan: They'd for the eyes, the groin, the nose.

Eddie: Oh, yeah, plenty. And so that was probably my all-time favorite because you're teaching these individuals skills that can save them in the future.

Dr. Chan: That's fascinating. How did you get into that stuff?

Eddie: I was researching. I'm like, "Okay, I need some community service," and it just popped up one day. And I called in and it was . . . yeah, it was probably one of the greatest decisions I've made. And so I did that.

Research, I worked in the . . . let's see. What was it? It was a childhood athletic lab where they worked with . . . they researched parents' involvement with their children's athletics.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Eddie: And so I got to crunch numbers and look at things that way. That was fascinating. And what else? I was in school for so long I feel like there are so many odds and ends that I did just to get exposure to different aspects of . . .

Dr. Chan: But it sounds like there were a lot of people that were helping you, rallying to your cause, pushing you forward.

Eddie: Very much so, yeah. Especially Yvonne because . . . I would go to her all the time and be like, "Okay, I don't know what I'm doing. Where do I go with this? How do I go about this?" And she would spell things out. We sat multiple times just talking and discussing things.

Dr. Chan: And then your wife, you mentioned your wife.

Eddie: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So you met her up in Logan?

Eddie: I met her my last semester, or in my last year of school, towards the end of my . . . yeah.

Dr. Chan: In Logan or back in American Fork?

Eddie: In Logan.

Dr. Chan: In Logan.

Eddie: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So when you told her you wanted to go to med school, what was that conversation like?

Eddie: Oh my goodness.

Dr. Chan: Was she super jazzed or like, "Oh my gosh"?

Eddie: I don't think she fully understood what it entails. But she's always been supportive. She's my rock and she definitely is one where if I'm getting out of line and I'm not working as hard as I need to, she's like, "Hey, you need to get your butt in gear. Let's kick it up, because you're not showing that you're going to be able to do this." And so that's always been a good driving force.

And yeah, bringing it up to her the first time, she's like, "Oh, that's really cool." Because her family's really . . . all my in-laws are very . . . education is very important to them. And going places and stuff has been very important.

Dr. Chan: How did you guys meet?

Eddie: We actually met in a basketball class.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay.

Eddie: So we have a little PE basketball classes up at Utah State. I took it and we ended up playing after class a few times with a couple buddies. And it took a little bit because she didn't notice me. I didn't notice her. She was just some cool girl that . . . she was this tall girl that would play basketball.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Great jump shot.

Eddie: Oh, yeah, good jump shot. She can shoot it from deep. It's funny. She's six feet. She doesn't really have any post moves. But she can shoot it from three-point all day and her defense is locked down. So we'd play and I just got to notice her more like, "Huh." My buddy, he's like, "You know what? You should ask her out." I'm like, "Maybe I will." And then I did and best decision of my life.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. And I think at Utah State you did some radio stuff?

Eddie: I did.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Eddie: Oh my gosh, yes.

Dr. Chan: So how did you get into that? Because you do have the smooth, sultry voice.

Eddie: I've had so many people tell me that, even in high school and stuff. They're like, "Your voice would be perfect for radio." I had no idea how to get into radio. I still would love to get into radio and figure out . . . and I love sports.

So I had a talk show at Utah State, at U Radio, that was all about sports. I'd always walk by, because it's down in the main student center. You'd walk by the radio station. And so I'm like, "You know what? Maybe I'll figure out someone I can talk to, to maybe see if I can jump on the radio." And found somebody and they're like, "Hey, we're looking for some sports talk show hosts and stuff." Yeah, jumped on it and had a couple cohosts. Oh, it was a blast.

Dr. Chan: So it wasn't right after games. It was during the week?

Eddie: Yeah, it was during the week.

Dr. Chan: And you'd kind of like analyze it, break it down, projections kind of thing?

Eddie: Yeah. We weren't really supposed to talk a lot about the actual college sports because there are a lot of rules and regulations with stuff like that. We couldn't interview players and things because all the contracts. I don't even know how that works. But we would talk about the upcoming week. We would make our picks for the NFL, college, big college games.

Dr. Chan: Okay, so it wasn't just Aggie sports? It was everything?

Eddie: Yeah, it was everything. Yeah, football, basketball were our main things. We'd talk a little baseball and stuff, but yeah, we had certain sections that we would . . . what was it called? Bystander Opinion or something? Me and one of my cohosts, we didn't see eye to eye on a few different topics, and so we'd always debate. And we would pull individuals from outside in and we'd be like, "Hey, what's your take? Whose side are you on here?" And we would take a few and the winner would get bragging rights for the week and stuff.

Dr. Chan: Did you have people call in?

Eddie: They couldn't figure out the phone systems.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Eddie: It was funny, though. My stepdad would always . . .

Dr. Chan: I've listened to a little talk radio sports. Not you guys, unfortunately. But that's where you get some of the very interesting takes.

Eddie: Yes.

Dr. Chan: When people call in with very interesting opinions about things, yeah.

Eddie: My family would listen in, especially my stepdad. He religiously would listen in. And he'd always be texting me. And so he would text me certain things on the topics we were talking about and I would chime in. I'd be like, "Oh, [Nappy 00:20:30] says this about this topic," and stuff. So it was kind of like that, but no. Yeah, I wish we would have had the phones because he would have called in all the time.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. All right. Eddie, you're doing great at Utah State. A lot of different activities. Yvonne's helping you. What was your strategy going into the med school application process? Did you apply to a lot of schools? A few schools since you were getting married, since you just met Taya?

Eddie: Taya.

Dr. Chan: Did you kind of want to stay local? I mean, what was the strategy going in?

Eddie: Goodness. It was just get into college, or to med school, "Let's just get in." And so I looked at my application and I was trying to figure out, "Okay, how do I rank?"GPA was pretty good. MCAT score, that really . . . I took it right after I graduated in 2017 and I literally bombed it. It was really rough. And so I waited a year, took a gap year, and that's when I actually found . . . I was working on my application, studying for the MCAT, getting things going that way. And then took the MCAT in 2018, did okay.

Dr. Chan: Did better.

Eddie: Did a lot better, but it was still where it comes to the average of the nation and stuff, I'm like, "Oh, I don't know how this is going to work, but I'm going to apply." And I looked into D.O. schools, I looked into M.D. schools, and I just started sending out my applications. So all summer I just spent hours upon hours working on applications and . . .

Dr. Chan: Do you remember how many you sent out?

Eddie: Oh my gosh.

Dr. Chan: More than 10? More than 30?

Eddie: It was probably in the 20s.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Cha-ching.

Eddie: Yeah. Well, what's nice is when you grow up with little money, there are fee assistance programs. The AAMC has a fee assistance that will help you, and that really saved my bank. I'd been saving up money for this process. And even with the money I'd saved up, with the fee assistance, my bank account just tanked. And so I was very grateful for that. It allows you to send a certain number of applications out, and then you can get fee waivers for secondary applications and stuff. So that did save me a lot.

So I did that. But yeah, honestly it was mostly time. I'd be okay if I sent a little bit more money and didn't have to write all these applications because . . . oh my goodness.

Dr. Chan: It's exhausting.

Eddie: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So 20 or so applications. How many interview offers started to come in?

Eddie: So I was later in the process. First off, I took the MCAT in . . . I think it was July, June or July. So I didn't get my application out until end of July, early August, which by that time people are already starting to get offers and stuff. And so I was nervous that I wasn't going to get anything.

But I ended up with . . . let's see. My first interview was out in the Uniformed Services University. And then I came here, was my second one. I had one in a D.O. school out in Texas. And then I had one, an offer, in a Virginia school, middle of nowhere. I decided to decline that one because, one, I had no idea . . . I did not want to live in the middle of nowhere. But then also I had one at Meharry Medical School. And so I had five offers.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Eddie: Went to four of them, and then I got into three schools.

Dr. Chan: So why Utah? Why did you choose this place? What sealed the deal for you?

Eddie: Yes. Well, what was interesting . . .

Dr. Chan: Especially as someone who wanted to go out of state.

Eddie: Oh, I wanted to. Well, what was nice, Taya was all about just, "Let's get in." She was all for going out of state. She was so excited to leave if we were to leave, or stay if we were to stay. She didn't care. "Let's just start this next journey in our process."

So I first got into a school out in Texas. There's a D.O. school out there and I was just stoked. I got wait-listed here, and so I didn't really know I was even going to get in. So I was just planning on going to . . .

Dr. Chan: Interesting. Okay.

Eddie: Yeah, I was planning on going to Texas. I went out to Meharry. I got in there. But did not really like the school. Just the culture about the place, it just did not vibe with me very well.

Dr. Chan: Very East Coasty, yeah.

Eddie: Yeah. And even the interview just turned me off because it was very disorganized. It almost seemed like it was just thrown together. And so I just got a bad vibe about that, the location of it. Yeah. And so they offered me. I just declined it, because I'd already gotten into the school in Texas.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Eddie: And so me and Taya were planning on going out to Texas, and we actually had made plans to go out to Texas. And we were going to visit. I think it was June 1st we were flying out. Well, I think it was like May 16th or 17th I get a call from Dr. Chan.

Dr. Chan: I remember talking to you.

Eddie: Oh my gosh.

Dr. Chan: You were very, very happy.

Eddie: Well, I was dumbfounded because . . .

Dr. Chan: A little, I think, shocked. Yeah.

Eddie: Yeah. It was funny. I remember exactly where I was. I was in my extra room studying, or working on applications actually. I can't remember what I was doing, but I do remember where I was. And it was early in the morning and I was just . . . my wife was like, "Hey, you got a phone call." And I look on it, "University of Utah School of Medicine." I'm like, "Oh, no. Is this seriously . . ." I answer the phone. "Hey, is this Edward Holloway?" "Yes." "This is Dr. Chan." My mouth just drops. My wife's just sitting there like, "Oh my goodness."

And so then it was a deciding process. Do we go out to Texas or do we go to Utah? You know, we went out to Texas, we saw it, and we're like, "You know what? This is an awesome place." We love Texas. The school, though, it's a brand new school. I think they're in their third year this year. And just their curriculum and everything, it just didn't really . . . I don't know. It didn't sit with me very well. And I remember coming up here for the interview. I just loved it. And we also have family here.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Eddie: And so tuition's cheaper because it's in state. Also, the university is just a phenomenal medical school. And it's funny because back in high school . . . we're going back now. When I first decided I wanted to be a doctor, I started rooting for The U because they had a medical school.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Eddie: And just rooting for them in sports.

Dr. Chan: I don't think you can do that in American Fork.

Eddie: Oh, no. Well, the thing was, too, everyone was BYU fans.

Dr. Chan: It's kind of like the seat of Utah County.

Eddie: Oh my gosh, yes. Everyone was BYU fans and they just irritated me. Because BYU fans, there's just something about them that just irritates the heck out of me. Oh my gosh. And there's just this BYU pride that I get a sickening taste in my mouth. And so I'm like, "I'm not rooting for BYU." I didn't even know about Utah State. "Utah had a medical school. I'm going to root for Utah." And so that was also . . .

It was kind of like a dream to get into The University of Utah. And they've always been, I remember, a top 50 medical school, even back in high school for me, like 14, 15 years ago. And so I'm just like, "You know what? Utah is an awesome school. The education will be top notch. The location, though it's in Utah, we have family here." My wife was pregnant, as well, at the time, so I'm like, "Okay, that would be support there." And all these things, I'm just like, "You know what? Can I bear another four winters in Utah? Yeah." And so that was the decision.

Dr. Chan: Okay. And how is your first semester going?

Eddie: Oh my goodness. Like I mentioned earlier, it's the journey. You become something in the process. And this has been such a molding semester. I'd had two years off. The closest thing I had to education was teaching preschool. So I taught preschool for the year prior to med school, and that does not prepare you for med school. I mean, it was awesome. The character development was phenomenal. But when it comes to all of the information that they throw on you, I was not ready for this.

And I'd also taken all my premed classes really quickly in my undergrad, so it had been . . . I think 2014 was the last time I took some science classes. So it's been a lot of trial and error and figuring out, one, how to learn. Two, they always talk about you're drinking from a fire hose.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Eddie: Didn't fully understand that until they threw us into the weeds of things. And literally, that's a really good representation of what it feels like, all the information they throw at you.

And over the course of this time, it's kicked my butt. Hands down kicked my butt. It's been a struggle. And there are nights where I'm like, "I don't think I can do this." Especially in the beginning, I was like, "I'm just going to fail. I'm not going to make it. There is no way this is even possible." And as time's gone on, I've come to learn how I'm learning, been able to grasp the material a little bit better.

I'm figuring this out a little late, but I'm grateful for just how foundations, the first semester of medical school, is run and the focus on, "Figure out how you learn. Figure out how you're going to do this. Build that foundation so that you can better prepare for the next few years."

And so, like I said, it's been a trying process. It's been probably one of the hardest things I've had to do, and I've learned more in the past three months than I have probably in my lifetime, but it's been great.

Dr. Chan: Any pleasant surprises the first semester?

Eddie: You know, it's more than just school. It's more than just sitting down in a class learning material. You're also interacting with patients. They call it clinical methods and stuff.

Dr. Chan: Clinical Method Curriculum, yeah. CMC.

Eddie: Yeah. So when you're learning that, I was pleasantly surprised at how well I did. I mean, I've always been good with people. I was a waiter for 11 years of my life and stuff. I interact with people really well. But to see how it translates into medicine and being able to interact with people and do certain skills on them, it was nice to see, "Hey, I'm not completely hopeless when it comes to medical school. There are some aspects that I'm really good at." That's helped me and given me strength to keep going.

Dr. Chan: That's been reassuring.

Eddie: Yes. It's like, "You know what? I do belong here." Even if I'm still trying to figure out the whole academic side of things, you know how to work with people, you know how to make them feel comfortable and make it so that they know that you're going to take care of them. And so now it's just taking this information and learning the proper academics to benefit them even more.

Dr. Chan: Well, Eddie, I'm just so happy that you're here. I just see you around the library sometimes and you just seem to be doing really well. And I know it's been a big adjustment with all the material, but I'm just glad that you're here.

And I guess my last question is, Eddie, what would you say to anyone out there listening who's maybe on the fence, if they're not sure if they want to apply to med school or not, or maybe struggling a bit and they're not sure . . . you know, they've hit the wall. What would you say to them? What advice would you give to them?

Eddie: Oh my goodness. You will continually hit walls in med school and just in life in general. I've hit so many walls in my upbringing, my scholastic career, and even socially. Just every aspect, you're going to hit walls. What's important is how you get over them or how you break through them.

And if you really feel like medicine would be a good career for you, go for it. You're going to hit walls. You're going to struggle, but that's the journey. And you learn and grow. And as clichÈ as it sounds, you pick yourself up, you dust yourself off, and you learn, you grow from your failures. And that couldn't be more true in medicine.

You know, it's going to be hard, but nothing worthwhile is going to be easy. If it was just handed to me and med school was just a breeze, I wouldn't be where I'm at or wouldn't have grown to the degree that I have.

And I'm actually very appreciative for the walls I've hit, the struggles I've gone through, and even all the doubts that I've had to becoming a doctor, because there are many times I'm like . . . in undergrad, I was like, "I'm not doing this. I don't want to be a doctor. I don't want to go down this path anymore." But I stuck through it, and by doing so, it solidified even more my desire, which then, as you get going further along, you see how much that has impacted your drive and your desire.

Those problems, those walls, those failures, they add fuel to the fire if you allow them to. So for those out there that are on the fence or they're struggling and stuff, just keep going. There are resources out there that can help you. Push through, fight, and by doing so, you're going to thank yourself in the long run.

If I could look back on past Eddie many years ago, I'd be like, "You know what? Thank you for keeping going. You've done so well."

Has it sucked? Oh my gosh, yes. But you know what? I am who I am now because I sucked it up. And it was miserable. I'm like, "You know what? I'm going to bear through this." And so, yeah, I would probably say that.

Dr. Chan: Beautiful, Eddie. Well, we'll have to have you come back on the pod and get updates as you go through.

Eddie: Oh, definitely.

Dr. Chan: And then maybe next time, we can talk a little bit more sports, because I would love to have your hot takes on things.

Eddie: Oh, heck yes. I would gladly.

Dr. Chan: Do you still have time to kind of follow sports, or is school a little too busy?

Eddie: Oh, no, I've got some time. Yeah, I have a little time.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. Well, I mean next time. Eddie, thank you for coming on. Thank you for taking a break from your studies. And we're going to have you come back because I want to hear more about your journey in med school and how it goes.

Eddie: That would be great, yes. I appreciate your time. This has been a dream. It's so funny because I look back and I remember you'd come to Utah State so many times and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that's Dr. Chan." We would worship you because you're the guy that gets us into med school. Now I'm here talking with you.

Dr. Chan: Yvonne's the one that helped you get into med school.

Eddie: It's true, but you're the one looking at our application and you're like, "Hey, we want you."

Dr. Chan: It's the committee. Well, Eddie, I'm so glad you're here.

Eddie: Thank you so much, sir. I appreciate you.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school. A production of The Scope Health Sciences Radio, online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What's like to meet your spouse in anatomy lab? How do you navigate the tricky complexity of couples matching? How do you finance your interviews? And how do you tell your spouse that you really don't like their top choice? Today on "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," I interview Chelse and Marcus, fourth-year medical students here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world. This is "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Well, welcome to another edition of "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life." I've got two guests today, Marcus and Chelse. How are you doing?

Chelse: We're good.

Marcus: We're great. Thanks for having us.

Dr. Chan: Recently matched fourth years, don't say where you matched because we'll get into that.

Chelse: Suspense.

Dr. Chan: It's suspense. All right, so let's start at the beginning. How did you two meet?

Chelse: Okay. We'll go way back.

Marcus: This is way back, yeah.

Chelse: Yeah. So we've been married now almost six years. We met at BYU. We were both pre-med undergraduates, and I was his anatomy TA.

Dr. Chan: I did not know that.

Chelse: Yeah. I can really tail it back to the moment we met. He came in to an early lab session, and I taught him the GI tract on a cadaver. Yep.

Marcus: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: And Marcus, did you go in early because you knew Chelse was going to be your TA that day, or did you really just need to learn about the GI tract and it didn't matter if . . .

Marcus: So, actually, yes, I did go in early because I knew it was her. I had seen her before that. I was taking the class with my sister, and when I saw Chelse, I think my jaw was like on the floor because she was, my sister is like, "I think you love her, don't you?" That's it.

Dr. Chan: So it's love at first sight.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: I think so.

Dr. Chan: And it wasn't love at the GI tract.

Marcus: No, not necessarily.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: No.

Marcus: I had a good friend that was in her TA section, and I was like I'm going to . . . And it was like Tuesday mornings at 7:00 a.m. I could had gone at any point in the day. So yeah, I definitely went to see Chelse, but I could get up the gumption at that point to actually talk to her.

Dr. Chan: So is this is the . . . when was this? What year is this?

Marcus: This was the . . .

Chelse: Oh, man. Of our sophomore year.

Marcus: . . . winter of 2011. It's like January 2011.

Dr. Chan: And does BYU have rules with TAs dating students, or is it kind of a free for all or have about?

Chelse: They sure do. They have rules, but we didn't.

Marcus: We weren't dating.

Chelse: No.

Marcus: I was just admiring at that point. I was just a creepy stalker.

Chelse: I really liked him and thought he was so cute, but he like never looked up at me while I was teaching, so I thought this isn't going to happen because he's more interested in the cadaver than me.

Marcus: I was nervous.

Chelse: Yeah, apparently. He like wouldn't even look at me, so that was winter semester. Nothing happened. He just kept showing up. I kept trying to get his attention. It never worked.

Marcus: That's such a lie though.

Chelse: Whatever, whatever.

Marcus: She did not try to get my attention. She already had it.

Chelse: Yeah. And then we had organic chemistry together in the fall, so that whole next year or junior year, and I was dating someone at that point. He was dating someone at that point so . . .

Marcus: No, I wasn't.

Chelse: Well, whatever.

Marcus: I was single, ready to mingle.

Chelse: Yeah. You were single at the . . .

Marcus: With you.

Chelse: Okay. And . . .

Dr. Chan: I think history is being rewritten as we're talking about it. Okay.

Chelse: But we just became really good friends, because I was in a relationship at that point. So we started becoming study buddies and became really good friends. My mom is a professor at BYU campus, so I introduced him to her. They became best friends. Now, I know they had like secret meetings behind my back.

Dr. Chan: Oh, some plotting, some engineering going on, buddy.

Chelse: He would say that he wanted to date me and that he thought he was falling in love with me. And my mom would say, "It's okay. You're going to be in her family eventually, just hang on." So, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Wow, okay. All right. So, from the time you met, when did you start dating?

Marcus: A year later. Well, actually it was . . .

Chelse: Well, a year and a half.

Marcus: No, it was longer.

Chelse: It was a year and a half.

Marcus: Because we met in the winter and then we didn't start dating until, yeah, a whole year and a half, in like October of 2012.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: And how long did you date for before getting married?

Chelse: So this sounds typical BYU unfortunately, but we knew each other, but we only dated for, well, it was almost a year.

Marcus: We got engaged in February.

Chelse: We got engaged, and we started in November, got engaged in February, and then got married in August.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: But at that point, when we started dating, we had already talked about like everything. We already knew everything about each other.

Chelse: It was more like, "Can I kiss you and have it not be weird?"

Dr. Chan: Most couples struggle with that.

Chelse: Yes, couples struggle.

Dr. Chan: All right. So one of the things that you talked about is applying to med school. Like when did that, you know, because you said you're both pre-med and we can do a whole separate podcast about like, you know, pre-med culture and how people navigated that. So how did that work at BYU? How did you guys navigate that?

Marcus: So I kind of decided at that point, once we were dating, med school. I was debating between dental and med school for a little bit, but decided on med school. And then Chelse had kind of had this experience where she felt like, I guess you could tell it.

Chelse: Yeah. I was worried about like the double doctor lifestyle, like we both want a family and I think, for better or worse, lots of LDS women maybe don't pursue medical school for a variety of different reasons. And so I kind of fell into that for a moment, trying to think like, "Well, maybe I could do a PhD route, maybe I could do PA school," because I love teaching and then trying to navigate how we would even approach a double doctor life. So I ended up kind of walking away. I didn't end up taking the MCAT, and I finished the semester. I graduated BYU a semester before he did, so I just started working in health care. And then he ended up . . .

Marcus: With like the PA goal, I mean like patient experience.

Chelse: With a PA or PhD goal. Yeah, exactly. And he ended up getting accepted to a school in Washington first.

Marcus: Oregon.

Chelse: In Oregon. Okay. Well, we didn't go, so it's fine. And it was, we thought when he applied, that we apply to places that had corresponding PhD or PA programs only and that school only had an MD program.

Marcus: DO.

Chelse: Yeah, and it was DO. And so, at that point, I thought, "Well, that's all there is, so I'm just going to go for it." So I started prepping. I took the MCAT, and then he got accepted to the U, which is what we always wanted all along, but I was already on the track. So I had made up my mind.

Marcus: But at that point you were committed to it too.

Chelse: I was committed.

Marcus: It was like ever since she was a little girl, like way more than me, she's wanted to be a physician since, you know, she was little. And so it just felt wrong to not have her kind of go after . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So, Chelse, what helped you get back on the medicine trail? I mean was there an event or series of events? Because what you express is not unknown. I mean, like a lot of people feel dissuaded for a variety of reasons.

Chelse: For a variety of things, yeah. But I mean it's what I've always wanted since I was little. And because he got in where there was only like a med school option, I felt like that was the trigger.

Marcus: It's kind of like the motivating factor.

Chelse: It was the motivating.

Marcus: Okay. I guess we're going to both do this, all of it.

Chelse: Because that was the only option for me and I felt like I can't not do it.

Dr. Chan: So once you started going, like so when there was only Oregon. it sounded like you felt like, "Okay. I can only apply to this medical school."

Chelse: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: But then when you got in Utah, it sounds like you'd already put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Chelse: I was already going. Yeah. And I had, like I had made up my mind now that I had . . .

Marcus: The fire was rekindled.

Chelse: It was back, yeah. Now that I had re-decided I was going to med school like it was done. I realized like I never would, it's just I would have had regrets forever if I hadn't done it, and it's who I am and who I always wanted to be. And so I went for it. The tricky thing then at that point was he was a year ahead of me, and so I applied and I was working here during his first year in med school, just doing research and I just remember running into you all the time.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, yeah. You're up on the second floor.

Chelse: I was up on the second floor.

Dr. Chan: You're in the OB-GYN department.

Chelse: Yes. And so you would keep walking by me, and every time I'd get so nervous because it's like, "Oh, my gosh, I saw Dr. Chan today. He's the master of my fate."

Dr. Chan: It's the committee, it's not me. It's the committee.

Chelse: I know. I know, but I didn't know that at the time and so . . .

Marcus: It definitely seems like.

Chelse: You just felt like this, yeah, like this goal, this unreachable goal.

Dr. Chan: Okay, so let's break this down. So Marcus gets into the U. I remember talking to you, Marcus, on the phone and I would say you're in the top 10 kind of dazed and confused, because I remember I kept on saying welcome and you're just like, "What?" Like, you know, I just remember it.

Marcus: You're joking with me.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Marcus: It was early.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. You seemed incredulous. You just seemed like, "This can't be happening. Is this some practical joke? Did Chelse put you up to this?" Because I remember you were very much dumbfounded on some deep level.

Marcus: Yeah. I was driving to work. It was early and unknown number, and I was just like, yeah, I thought it was some kind of joke. People around me probably knew how much I wanted to get into the U.

Chelse: It's just been sort of like humility that he has, he just like couldn't believe it. Yeah.

Marcus: One of the best moments.

Chelse: Oh, my gosh, yeah, it was awesome.

Dr. Chan: So you start school here, but Chelse is a year behind you. How was that for the first year, you know, as far as like amount of work and, you know, studying and, you know, Chelse is getting her application in order?

Marcus: Yeah. It was a little overwhelming for me. I mean, probably not uncommonly. I was a Spanish major, so I didn't have the science background, and I think, for me, I definitely experienced that learning curve of trying to get used to the language of science during that first semester. And so, yeah, it was hard, but we got through it. And Chelse was working hard during that time doing research here at the U and developing good ties there at the OB programs.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Chelse: Fortuitous.

Dr. Chan: And then did you only apply to the U, or what was your strategy the next year?

Chelse: Yep, I only applied here, which is why you were so scary every time I saw you. It just felt like all my eggs in one basket, and some of his classmates would be like, "What would happen if you don't get in?" And I would just say, "Good question, but I'm not thinking about it." Because that would have created a two-year gap, which seems it would have been harder. So we were just kind of going forward, hoping it would all work out. Yep.

Dr. Chan: So I remember calling you, and you were very excited.

Chelse: I was so excited.

Dr. Chan: You were even like one floor above us at that point.

Chelse: I was one floor above you literally, and I was so excited. I texted Marcus immediately, and I was like, "You need to leave class. There's an emergency." Because I like . . .

Marcus: I was just like in class aloof, like I didn't . . .

Dr. Chan: Did you walk out or you're just like, "Yeah."

Marcus: I did kind of, yeah. I thought maybe it was like a legit emergency, and then she kind of screamed, "I got in," and then it was pretty close to our class break, so then, at that point, my whole class kind of knew Chelse was applying and so we kind of had a little celebration.

Chelse: We had a little celebration.

Marcus: In the hall, in front of everybody.

Dr. Chan: And when did you start, so like then you knew, like you're a year behind Marcus. When did the discussion pivot to like how do we sync up? How do we . . .?

Chelse: Right then or even before we kind of started planning.

Marcus: Once I got in, we had kind of started planning a little bit. We're kind of planners, especially Chelse.

Chelse: Especially me.

Dr. Chan: So there's many options for someone to take "a year off," pursue a master's degree, do research. How did you end up choosing what you chose?

Marcus: Yeah. I've taken some business courses in undergrad, like statistics, accounting. And I really did enjoy it, so I kind of had a lingering desire to pursue business. At the time, Vivian Lee was pretty motivating as well, as far as kind of pushing physician leadership in health care kind of with an emphasis on business, I felt like. And I'm also not necessarily a business-minded person. It doesn't come naturally to me. So it was appealing to kind of let's strengthen a weakness I guess. So, for those reasons, I decided pretty early on.

Chelse: Yeah. It was an easy decision on the MBA. And so, in between first and second year, when you have that break, he prepped and took the . . .

Marcus: The GMAT.

Chelse: The GMAT.

Dr. Chan: So they still require the GMAT. I know that's been an ongoing discussion.

Chelse: Yeah. At that point he needed it. So since that was kind of his one break in med school without boards, we planned so he could take that and have it ready by the time he needed to apply. Yeah.

Marcus: So what's one more standardized test?

Chelse: Why not?

Dr. Chan: More tests.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: How was it to be . . . So you did your first two years, and then is the MBA after third year or could you go after second year?

Marcus: It's only after third year.

Dr. Chan: So you went ahead. So, Chelse, you were a year behind for three years.

Chelse: Yep, exactly.

Dr. Chan: Okay. How was that?

Marcus: It was kind of unfortunate, honestly, looking back, just because we were study buddies for so long, like we learn really similarly and work really well together, so I would have liked that. It would have been nice to have the experience. I don't know. Maybe a step prep would have torn our marriage apart. I don't know.

Dr. Chan: Or made it stronger.

Marcus: Or made it stronger. But I think, I kind of have like the regret factor as far as that goes. Like I wish I could have experienced that with her, but it ultimately ended up fine. I could kind of put out some fires along her journey where she had . . .

Chelse: Yes, super helpful for me.

Marcus: . . . worries come up but . . .

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: What were some fires?

Marcus: Just kind of specific worries pertaining to like course details or assignments or . . .

Chelse: Yeah. I think it was nice, just because he knew the resources. Like I feel when you get into med school, you have this massive learning curve and then all these new resources, and you're just trying to learn like which ones are worth your time. So he had tried the resources and kind of told me, since we learn so similar, what worked best for him. So he kind of shortened my learning curve a little bit just by helping me tailor the resources or how to best study, just . . .

Marcus: She could commit a little earlier.

Chelse: Yeah, like simple things like that. And I also think it helped watching him go through it, because then I feel like I had very realistic expectations of what all it was going to be like going in.

Dr. Chan: With the schedules kind of flipped, so first year is usually the morning is off and have class in the afternoon. And then second year, there's class in the morning and usually the afternoon is off. Like would you study together at nights, or were you kind of library buddies, or how did that work? Or did you go whole periods of time without seeing each other? I mean, what did that look like the first few years?

Marcus: It really wasn't as bad as it sounded. I felt like we still saw each other a lot, and we did, we would kind of review stuff together. And we both had our study groups, so we kind of go and see and hang out for a little while. I think both of us being in it just did set really realistic expectations and we just knew we were studying. We'd meet up and go to the gym or go get some food.

Chelse: We'd just sit by each other. We'd be studying different things, but we'd always just be by each other and it was fun. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Good.

Chelse: We survived.

Dr. Chan: All right. So I'm going to start with Chelse first, then to you, Marcus. All right. So, Chelse, if you had asked me before you got here and then all throughout the first years in med school, I would have said OB-GYN.

Chelse: Really?

Dr. Chan: All the way.

Marcus: That's what I was thinking too.

Dr. Chan: So how did you arrive at your career choice, your decision, and like how much did third year kind of play into that? So what was your journey towards that?

Chelse: Yeah. So, because I had worked in OB-GYN research before med school, I knew I loved it, but I also didn't want to pigeon hole myself because of that. So I got in, and then I got exposed to the world of dermatology because my mom has had lots of skin cancer and one of my best friends was pursuing it. So then I got sucked into derm. So, for the first two years of med school, I was dermatology all the way. I did tons of research in leadership and kind of departed from OB. And then in third year, that's when . . .

Marcus: And part of that is because it was kind of like almost typical for you, right, or people would kind of think, "Oh, yeah, she's going to go into OB because she worked in OB and because . . ."

Chelse: Right. So I wanted to like prove them wrong kind of. And, anyway, just be stubborn that way and I really did like dermatology a lot and found great mentors. But then in third year, I did my, well, family medicine was my first third year clerkship, and I delivered a baby, and that was it pretty much.

Marcus: She took this Instagram video of her. It wasn't in Instagram, but it was just a video of herself like right after she did it, and it was like all over her face that it was over.

Chelse: It was pretty much over after that. I just loved it. And then I did my OB rotation, and I like wanted to stay and my residents kept telling me I had to go home and I just was so happy. I think that's the fun thing of being in it together. We can see when the other one is like really happy when we're working in something. And that was like a clear difference for me. And then I did a little bit of derm third year, and I just didn't love it. It wasn't the patient relationship I initially went into medicine for. I didn't want to lose certain components of medicine, and so it just became an easy decision. I just felt like I fell right into it, and I just never looked back after that. Marcus' course was much more convoluted.

Dr. Chan: Yes. I remember seeing Marcus a lot. I would hear different stories because it's all about . . .

Chelse: Every time you would talk to him it would change.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So, Marcus, let's talk about it.

Marcus: Oh, man.

Dr. Chan: Let's talk about how you ended up, I'm not even 100% sure where you ended up because I think everything was on the table at one point, right?

Marcus: Everything was on the table. I started med school thinking family practice. That was kind of like in the back of my mind. And that kind of carried through throughout, but then along the way I was kind of sidetracked by OB, ENT. I mean it's kind of like . . .

Dr. Chan: And psychiatry was up there. Surgery was on there.

Marcus: I love psychiatry. I love psychiatry. I did a whole extra month in child psychiatry, and surgery was there for a while. EM was big for a couple of months. It's so funny because all my friends made fun of me for this, too, because even with my closest friends, every time we talked about it, it would change. And so, when I submitted my application, they had all kind of been thinking, you know, what I was telling them. And then I just, for fun, was like, "I ended up doing this," you know, and it was like they didn't even blink an eye. It wasn't even that good of a joke because they are totally like, "Oh, yeah, that's how Marcus works."

So, for me, after third year that you're off with the MBA was probably the most influential for that just because the time away from medicine kind of helped me gain a little more perspective and what I was looking for. And I settled on anesthesia, which was actually one that I, if you would have asked me in the first year or so of med school, I would have immediately dismissed it. It was like on my quick dismiss list.

But once I did it, I think what kind of grabbed in was the kind of really meaningful, impactful, but shorter interactions with patients. Not that I don't like interacting with patients. I actually love it. But I like the role that you play in patient care and that there's kind of like this service that you provide them, and then kind of you both go on your way. And then also just the mentors and everything, kind of their state of mind and just satisfaction with what they were doing was really influential for me at the time as well. And yeah, I mean there's lots of reasons where I ended up choosing that path.

Chelse: Yeah. And it was at like the very tail end of like . . . very beginning even of fourth year when he was still making his decision. I remember it.

Marcus: So even with the extra year, I was still right up to the . . .

Chelse: Even with the extra year, he was still right up to the deadline.

Dr. Chan: Were you doing like physician shadowing during MBA time and you just kind of little, I don't know, little evening type things?

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: I was kind of between like psychiatry, emergency and anesthesia and family.

Chelse: And family, don't forget that.

Marcus: And so my kind of two that I was most involved with was anesthesia shadowing, and then also I was working at the free psychiatric clinic.

Dr. Chan: MLA Clinic or 4th Street?

Marcus: No. It's . . . why am I blanking on the name?

Chelse: I can't even remember the name.

Dr. Chan: It was just called the free psych clinic, yeah.

Marcus: Yeah, the free psych clinic down there on like 45th South or so. Anyway, you know Gardner.

Dr. Chan: I know, yeah, Dr. Gardner.

Marcus: He's kind of the director of that clinic.

Dr. Chan: So how was it like though, like with one partner knowing what they're doing and another partner just kind of like unsure? I mean how much . . . it sounds like did it just dominate like when you guys would talk to each other just trying to figure that out or . . .?

Marcus: Well, it kind of got into the point where I was like, "I'm thinking this." And then she would kind of be like, "Oh, great."

Chelse: That's so great.

Marcus: And I'd be like, "Why are you more excited?"

Chelse: We really had this conversation on that. He's like, "I'm going to do that." And I would say, "That is so great." And I would talk to him all about the pros, and he was like, "I just don't feel like you're really excited." I was like, "We'll give it some time."

Marcus: She's like, "I'm just waiting for you to change again."

Chelse: I was waiting for it to change, but it's kind of funny because that's just very fitting for our personalities, like this is how our marriage has always been. Like I'm a very decisive person, and Marcus is more of a, "I have to see all the options and then I have to really evaluate all my decisions, and then I'll make a choice." And like this is when we go . . .

Marcus: Yeah. I mean even Netflix.

Chelse: Oh, yeah, even Netflix.

Marcus: That's like we'll search for Netflix

Chelse: He'll scroll forever versus I'll look and just decide.

Marcus: Yeah. She looks.

Dr. Chan: I assume you have separate accounts, right?

Chelse: No.

Marcus: No, it's all the same.

Chelse: It's just whoever gets the remote.

Marcus: She just sits there and she like will fall asleep sometimes before I pick one.

Chelse: Or like going shopping, like I can just look. I know what I want, I'm done, versus Marcus can't purchase something until he's seen all of his options. So like this is why we balance each other out. He makes me think about things more. I make him commit and decide. So like we balance one another. So the fact that this is how it happened with our specialty choice is not surprising at all. So we already knew how to handle each other in this way.

Marcus: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: Yeah. But once you actually committed to anesthesia, you didn't look back, like it felt right.

Dr. Chan: All right. So talk about this moving to the next step, applying as a couple, couples match. What was your initial strategy, and did it change with time? I mean how did that look like at first?

Chelse: Yeah. I feel like it's so daunting. Once you decide what you want, you think you're kind of on this downhill slope. But then you start looking at programs all over the country and realizing you don't know anything. And so both of us kind of took the approach of talking to our individual mentors in our field to get their advice on programs. And so we kind of, and also I think initial strategy for people applying is they'll start geographically limiting themselves, and we did that a little bit but not much, because with the couples match, you just have to apply.

Marcus: We kind of did unwise things as far as the couples match goes through with that regard because we have two dogs and we were kind of like we don't really want to be in New York or LA or which are . . .

Dr. Chan: Because of the dogs.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah. But just like living situation, we didn't want to end up in like some really expensive apartment with two dogs. And so we actually didn't apply to a lot of those bigger cities which . . .

Chelse: Is a good strategy for couples.

Marcus: . . . as a couples match is not a good thing, right?

Chelse: Well, that's what I'm saying, yeah, yeah.

Marcus: Because that's where tons of programs are within a close vicinity to each other and . . .

Dr. Chan: But what are the values on hearing those, like you wanted to be together, right?

Chelse: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So you wanted to be in the same area, same city.

Marcus: That was always the overarching, yeah, strategy.

Chelse: We always re-emphasized again and again and again, like our number one priority was each other and we couldn't let the match come between that, because if you let it, it will. So we just kept saying like our number one priority is each other. Like any obstacle that would come up that was have trouble that . . .

Dr. Chan: And did you talk to previous couples about the couples match or . . .?

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah. Shout-out to Maddie and Noah.

Chelse: Yeah, they were amazing.

Marcus: Maddie basically wrote us like a script on the how-to of couples match so.

Dr. Chan: And what are some things you can share from that?

Chelse: Yeah. So I think the key thing, one of the very few pros of a couples match is you have always an excuse to cold contact a program. And so you always are trying, after you submit your application. it's this weird limbo time and some will hear from others and that is where the next challenge comes. Once you decide where you're applying, then it becomes challenging because you're getting interviews at different places. But the nice thing of a couples match is you just have an excuse to reach out to them.

So we probably sent over a hundred emails to programs of saying, "My husband has an interview on this day. I'm really interested because of this and this and this." And then actually, it ended up working well for us most of the time, where we were able to secure interviews at each other's programs. So I think that's a pro of just emailing programs a lot because they know the couples match is tricky. And I think some programs, it seemed like they like couples too, because they know they're like committed and you're willing to come if you're both willing to fly out.

And I think that's the other part, sometimes from the West, I think programs in the East or the South are a little skeptical we'd ever really come out there versus, for us, we could really negate that of saying, "We're paying for two tickets all the way out here. We're not doing this because we're not committed or interested." So those were some pros. But we emailed and contacted programs a lot and had no shame or pride and just begged for interviews.

Marcus: And also financially, we had to take out private loans in order to finance both of us doing this, because it was close to almost $20,000 for both of us to do the couples match.

Dr. Chan: And is that where you originally budgeted, or did that just start ballooning?

Chelse: Based on like previous advice from couples, they averaged around like 8 to 10 grand each. So we had an idea that we were getting into that type of horribleness.

Marcus: We did save ourselves a little bit when I was a first year. We got a Southwest card and I would recommend any Skymost card because that most of my interviews with the timing, it worked out that I could use points so that did actually end up saving us a lot of money.

Chelse: It saved a lot of money, so that was good.

Dr. Chan: All right. So, Chelse, how many OB programs did you apply to?

Chelse: Oh, I applied to, we tried not to go crazy, but we applied to 47 programs.

Dr. Chan: Right. And Marcus, how many?

Marcus: The same.

Dr. Chan: Forty-seven.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: But then I had prelim and TY.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: Right.

Dr. Chan: How many interview offers to start? I mean like what was the final total?

Chelse: I had a total of 21 offers, and I ended up going on 17, just because those other ones we couldn't match up, so there was no point in me going.

Marcus: Yeah. And I had 18 anesthesia and then with other prelim and TY, and I ended up going on 14.

Dr. Chan: And did you start finding out roughly the same time because some programs, it's like radio silence and it starts causing anxiety on other stuff?

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: It was extremely anxiety provoking.

Dr. Chan: Which programs got back, I mean how did that work?

Marcus: Like anesthesia over OB? It was kind of mixed at first. We were so stressed like the week they were starting to . . . I guess it was the week after applications were submitted or a couple of weeks in and invitations started coming in but to different places and we were just like, "What do we . . ." It was like the most stress I've ever been in med school probably.

Chelse: We were panicking, yeah, because we were just getting such different places and then each of us kept having different lull periods. And so it was a little stressful. But I think it's nice in that OB and anesthesia tend to have the same busy interview seasons. It's not like derm where it's the way like in January. That would have been a lot more stressful. So I think what we learned from the couples match is right when you think you get over a hurdle, there's another one waiting. And it's been true the entire time.

Dr. Chan: And did you just have those like Google calendar, where you just like tracking each other across the country?

Marcus: Google sheets.

Chelse: We had a Google sheet.

Marcus: That we would highlight as interviews came in and then quickly put the dates so the other could immediately email. Because in the first couple of weeks we were kind of in this weird limbo where we weren't really sure if we should reach out right away just because one of us got an invite, and so that was probably the most stressful part. But then we just kind of took Maddie's advice eventually, and we were just immediately starting as soon as one person would get an invite, then the other would email.

Dr. Chan: And you felt that worked more often than it didn't?

Chelse: Yeah. Yep. Like all the ones we really wanted to get together, apart from two, we got together.

Marcus: Because also the longer you wait, I mean their invites are going out, and yeah, then they just have the excuse to just tell you, "Oh, sorry, we don't have any open spots right now."

Chelse: So we created like a Google sheet that we could both have on our phones and have live updates all the time that we would keep track of where we were denied, where we were waitlisted, where we had an interview and then the interview dates. And then we also kept track of who had emailed which programs. So we had like a pretty . . . you have to have a pretty good efficient system going, and it took a lot of time because you have to look up these programs because we wanted to make the emails personal to the program, so you have to find unique facts or try to find mentors that may have a connection. So we spent a lot of time sitting on our couch looking up programs and then drafting emails.

Dr. Chan: You probably learned like quickly some programs have great websites, other ones have like this is really vague.

Chelse: Like nothing, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, there's like nothing.

Chelse: So trying to draft like a fancy personal email was impossible. "I am very excited about your broad case exposure and your great surgical training," like you start . . .

Dr. Chan: And on those Google sheets, would you start just writing notes, impressions after a post interview? Or did you just talk about in person like this program is really good, why or why not?

Chelse: We did it in person. Some people . . .

Marcus: We had a little notebook, like little notebooks that we take with us and write impressions. And then we'd talk about it immediately after the other which . . .

Chelse: I couldn't do it differently. Some people say . . .

Marcus: Yeah. We can't kind of hold it in I guess.

Chelse: Some people say if you're couples matching, like you should try and hold what you think on a program a little closer so that your couple, your other part can just like go into a program unbiased and just open and really evaluate it for themselves instead of thinking, "Oh, my spouse loves this. I have to do well," or, "Oh, my spouse didn't like this."

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Because it just creates pressure on the other person.

Chelse: Exactly.

Marcus: And it totally happened to us. We have to say that we totally experienced that.

Chelse: A hundred percent. But at the same time, like Marcus and I's relationship, like our communication is always solid, so I couldn't not go to this awesome place and not tell him about it.

Marcus: And there was also like one that she didn't like so much that I cancelled my interview for. And so, you know, it's like . . .

Chelse: Which they say you're not supposed to do, but we did that because I just, yeah, it wasn't for me. And so we didn't want to spend the money, so we really talked about it. And so we got over the hurdle of finally getting in the spot where we had enough interviews to feel comfortable with our numbers in the same place, and then the next hurdle was we felt differently about a lot of those programs.

Dr. Chan: Okay, all right. So that kind of segues into creating your rank list. I mean what did that look like?

Marcus: Yeah. It was so hard.

Dr. Chan: Did you like have a, was this all Google docs, or do you have like a whiteboard at home?

Chelse: We did our own.

Marcus: We just talked about it, you know, just straight up and kind of made a list in the notes in our phone. But yeah, it was hard. I will say that I had really good interview experiences across the board. I really liked all the programs that I interviewed at, so I would have felt comfortable going anywhere. Whereas, Chelse, it was much different for her. There's a lot of variability.

Chelse: Yeah. I think for me, the places I interviewed they were all, that's another thing, we only applied to big academic centers. We didn't do community programs, just because academic centers tend to have more options for couples, and then also we both think we might want to do fellowship and so you kind of need those big centers. And so they were all great. But within OB, there's so many different specialties you have to be trained in with like high risk and then GYN oncology, and uro-gyn, that they all had different strengths. And some weren't as well rounded as others, so that was a big concern for me. Especially with wanting fellowship, I needed and wanted a program that had a really good track record of matching fellows because it's becoming more competitive, and then I wanted a good resident research curriculum in place.

And so that just wasn't equal across the board, and so I really try to evaluate every program on the same merit, and I ended up having three tiers really of programs. And the hard part was that some of these lower tier programs for me were really strong for anesthesia and Marcus loved them.

Marcus: So, at one point, it really did feel like she just hated all the ones that were like my favorite.

Chelse: Yeah. It was really hard.

Dr. Chan: It sounds stressful. It sounds tense.

Chelse: And one of his most favorite programs that he just loved, he loves the program, he loved the location and he loved the people, and it was one of my last programs. So I went in and so I'm going to give this everything and after that interview day, I sat in the rental car like dreading calling him.

Marcus: And like I knew immediately when I say, "Hello?" but it's just interesting. Ultimately, there was one I think that was really good, kind of neutral ground.

Chelse: It was always our neutral ground, yeah.

Marcus: That we both were really excited about as well, which ended up being a good thing. That was where we ended up.

Dr. Chan: So you submit your match list February.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Feeling good between February and March or second guessing or more anxiety or . . .?

Marcus: I will say we had our rank list done like a week before probably, and then moments, an hour before it was due . . .

Chelse: Within an hour before submission, we changed things a little bit.

Dr. Chan: A crisis.

Marcus: We had a crisis.

Dr. Chan: Perceived crisis, pseudo crisis.

Chelse: Yeah. It was probably like the hardest moment of all of it between the two of us.

Marcus: It was probably more like me. I was just mourning my favorites that had died, that like way down on the list.

Chelse: They were so low, yeah.

Marcus: And I was just kind of having . . . and then I realized because anesthesia has, some programs have our advanced meeting, the first year is not included in training. And so I had realized we had ranked some advanced above certain categoricals, and so I was like, "We need to hurry and decide again, is it more important that we're together all four years, or would you rather be at this place and potentially be a year a part at least?"

Chelse: And so we did and we went with our number one priority like an hour before it was due. We rearranged it so that all the programs that included all four years for Marcus, meaning we will be together for all four, we ranked those higher to give us the best shot of being together for all four because we decided that's what was most important. And I will say like our number one strength in our marriage has always been communication, and I think that's why we were able to survive it and come out stronger, because it's just so hard because you're balancing your love for each other within your own career goals and your own love for these programs, and it's hard when you really feel connected with a program and you love the people and you have that feeling while you're there of, "This is my place," and then you talk to your spouse and they're like, "Uh, that's not my place at all." So it's like this very, it's hard.

Marcus: It's hard.

Chelse: It's really . . . I'm not going to sugar coat it. It was a lot of hard moments.

Marcus: And it's okay to be honest about it and have your mourning moment and then kind of move on.

Chelse: Yeah, and that was the other thing. We kept having to say like we have to be honest and not take it personal. So we kept really trying to just be honest with each other. And then when he would diss one of my programs or vice versa, just to not take it personally because it's not about you, it's just trying to find the right fit for both of us.

Dr. Chan: I think anyone going through the match, I think it's doubly hard with couples. I mean you're forced to make decisions on, I would argue, limited information, right, because you have like the websites and you have these interview days and then . . .

Chelse: Which they always present the best face.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And then like you started talking to other people and other people have all these other opinions. It's like, "Oh, you know, that's a great program. Oh, you know, I heard blah blah blah blah." You know, so it's almost like this rumor mill.

Marcus: And then you have the post-interview communication which you kind of like, "Oh, maybe like they're a little more than I thought." It was sunny there that day and I mean there's, you know, all sorts of . . .

Dr. Chan: The residents seemed to be happy, but why are they happy?

Chelse: Right, and that's the hard thing, too. You're in a city because you're traveling so much interview to interview, you're in the city maybe for, if you're there for a long time, it's like a day, a complete 24-hour stint if that's a long one. So it's hard to re-evaluate can I move here for four years? And that was especially hard when we weren't there together to kind of explore the city together. So it's honestly going off of your gut.

Dr. Chan: All right. So submit the list, last minute changes, feeling good about it. What was more stressful, the Monday or the Friday? And where were you on Monday when you got the email?

Marcus: We were both at home.

Chelse: We stayed at home in our PJs, right by each other.

Marcus: And we just like refresh, refresh, refresh.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: Then finally had to like log in to the website.

Chelse: We didn't wait for the email. We just logged in to the NRNP to look, and then it said we, he found his first and it said that he had matched and mine just said not so eligible. And I was like, "What does that mean?" So then we finally . . .

Marcus: Well, there's just like an area where it says that.

Chelse: So, when we finally found it and when we both matched, we just started screaming and then hugged each other. I cried, he didn't cry.

Marcus: I think it was still stressful on Monday just with the advanced.

Dr. Chan: That's where you learn if you matched and on Friday you learn where you matched.

Chelse: So, Monday, it was really stressful and then there was a little bit of a stress taken off once we knew we had matched but not much just because with both of us, we kept wondering are we together all four years? Are we together that first year?

Dr. Chan: And you couldn't tell on the way it was worded on Monday if you weigh in like the categorical . . .

Marcus: It was just successful, so that could have been any, a combination of things that we did.

Chelse: So there was still so much anxiety.

Marcus: And we actually at the very end of our list, we did rank different programs. So she did like her favorites and I did my favorite. So there was still, you know, theoretically we could be at different places entirely.

Dr. Chan: And that part was your match wasn't coupled together, it was like de-coupled.

Chelse: Right, it was not in the same place. I mean it was way, way at the bottom of our list, but we thought it would be better for us both to start getting a job and start working and then try and get together.

Dr. Chan: Rather than one person not matching.

Chelse: Exactly. So we did that at the very end. And so we thought like there's no way we would fall down that low, but then at the same time you never know. But who knows, maybe I will.

Dr. Chan: Maybe you just checked that wrong box.

Chelse: Exactly, you never know.

Dr. Chan: On February, you shouldn't check that box.

Chelse: I know.

Marcus: Exactly.

Chelse: So that kind of, Monday took off maybe 5% of anxiety for us, but not a whole lot more because we just kept stressing about are we together, are we together, are we together? Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So, Friday, who's there, who did you invite?

Marcus: So we had my parents, Chelse's parents, her parents are divorced so her dad was there, her mom and her stepdad. And then we kind of huddled in a group with . . .

Chelse: My three closest friends in school and all their families.

Dr. Chan: And I'm sure you've tried to explain to them the couples match, but they probably didn't get it.

Marcus: It took a few times.

Chelse: It took so much, and I still think most of them . . . we even ended up sending them the NRNP. NRNP has like this couples match algorithm video that tries to explain it because we had tried so many times and we're like, "Here, watch this." And then after we did, my mom and her husband called me the next day and were like, "We couldn't sleep all night because it was just such this, how can it be like this?"

Dr. Chan: Why did they make it this way? It's like a combination of "The Matrix" and like yeah.

Chelse: It's chaos, so yeah. We had all of our family and then my really close friends in school and all of their family.

Dr. Chan: So they were prepped though for you guys to possibly leave, be of Utah.

Chelse: Oh, yeah.

Marcus: Of course they're like, "Oh, you're just going to go where you want to go." But we tried to set expectations, you know, it could happen.

Chelse: Like this is chaos, yeah.

Marcus: It could happen.

Chelse: Yeah, yeah. I know they were ready for it. We really tried to prep them to be ready for it.

Dr. Chan: Anything like just being apart for a year, yeah, or more, yeah.

Chelse: Yep. And we tried to prep ourselves for that, too.

Dr. Chan: Right. So speeches, speeches, speeches. They cut the red ribbon. You get up there, you get your envelope. Do you open each other's, just the two of you? Do you go back to your family, open in front of them? What was your MO?

Chelse: We went back to our big group. So I've always been like this really close friends group and so we all opened together. So one of my good friends, Marissa, she opened first so we were all there. So we got to watch her and celebrate with her, and then Kaisa opened, so we got to watch her and celebrate with her. All this time we're holding our envelopes, and then we opened after that. And we opened at the exact same time and waited until we both had our envelope out to read it at the same time.

Marcus: I'm getting anxious like thinking about again and then you kind of open your own and then look and see, and then looking at hers to make sure it says the same thing. And she's looking at mine and it feels like tons of time is . . .

Chelse: It was silent because we saw each other's and then just kept looking back and forth, back and forth between each other's papers to make sure it said the same thing.

Marcus: And then we just kind of screamed out.

Chelse: You screamed out where you're going.

Dr. Chan: So where are you going?

Marcus: We're staying at Utah.

Chelse: Yeah. We're staying at University of Utah. So we kept glancing back and forth, back and forth, and finally Marcus just goes, "Utah!" He just screams it.

Marcus: And then my mom is like, "Haa! Haa!"

Chelse: And then his mom starts freaking out, just screaming with joy.

Dr. Chan: That's a new behavior for them?

Chelse: No.

Marcus: That's pretty normal.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: She's a pretty loud person. You'll love her. Yeah. So she just was screaming on the video. You can hear her above everyone, just going nuts.

Dr. Chan: So how does it feel? I mean honestly like, you know?

Marcus: I would say the post-match hangover, it was very real for us. Like for two days we just kind of like were recluse and just like hang out with each other and just kind of thought about how the future is going to be. Obviously, I'm excited, but you're like you're mourning, because it's so much buildup and you spent so much time thinking about what would it be like to . . .

Dr. Chan: You spent 20 grand flying around this big country of ours.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: What would it be like here and what would it be like there, and I really like them, but I like this about this program. And so it's like this, for us anyway, for me it was like a lot of mourning all the possibilities that now are no longer possibilities. Even though at the same time being excited for where we're going.

Chelse: Yeah. And we talked about this. Like we always talked about no matter what that envelope says I think we're going to be excited, we're going to be disappointed, we're going to be sad, we're going to be afraid. Like it's just so many emotions, so we really did become recluses for the next three days and just kind of were together. We wanted to just be together and process what had happened and like wrap our . . . because the whole time we were in limbo for the past several months not knowing what our future would look like or what our plans, and that was hard for me being a planner. So we just kind of wrapped our head around what was coming, yeah.

Dr. Chan: I assume the program has reached out to you and welcomed you, congratulated you.

Marcus: Yeah. They've been amazing the whole time.

Chelse: They've been amazing. And I mean especially, yeah, both of our programs here have just been so good to both of us. They've been so supportive of us as a couple, and so they reached out and were great. And then some of the programs that we loved, that we weren't going to also reached out, and so it was this weird bittersweet emotion of like saying they're happy for you but disappointed. And so it was this weird catchall, where you're so excited, but then you're also like saying goodbye for possibilities that you had to explore for the past few months. And that's how everybody feels no matter what. It's so exciting and so wonderful, and then like kind of sad all at the same time. But yeah, we were so happy.

Dr. Chan: Did any of your friends matched into Utah programs with you, or is it brand new, you're going to have a brand new set of friends next year, co-residents?

Chelse: Well, I got super lucky. So one of my . . . I take it back. One of my really good friends who's also doing OB, she matched here as well. And the U's never taken two residents, so we saw each other from across the room and we're looking at each other and like, "Where are you going?" And we both pointed down to the ground and then we just like jumped over tables and people and just ran together and started hugging. So one of my co-residents is one of my closest friends from our class.

Dr. Chan: That's great.

Chelse: That's pretty amazing.

Marcus: Yeah. There's a few.

Chelse: There's a few.

Marcus: So I'm doing the internal medicine first year here, and there's quite a few classmates from Utah as well. And then there's five of us total that matched into the Utah Anesthesia Program, which is it's a lot more than usual.

Dr. Chan: Five internal?

Marcus: So five for anesthesia.

Dr. Chan: Five for anesthesia. How many spots for anesthesia?

Marcus: There's 14 or 15.

Dr. Chan: Okay, so almost a third. That's pretty impressive.

Chelse: Yeah. There was a huge proportion of our class this year though too who did anesthesia. It was a popular year.

Dr. Chan: Amazing, that's great.

Chelse: Yeah, so we're happy. And it's fine because we're staying and our family is close so that's really convenient. And then it's also sad because some of our really close friends are leaving, and we experience that when all of his classmates left for residency, like they're leaving and we're staying because he had to finish the year with me. So it kind of feels like that, again, but exciting because you're moving on to residency, which is an all new beast in and of itself.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And I assume you've gotten your contracts.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: I remember when I got my first contract, I was like, "Wow, this is a really long document." I've never made that much money before. I've never signed anything like that before.

Marcus: The positive number. Oh, that's good.

Chelse: Oh, my gosh, yeah. We're so excited.

Marcus: That's new to our bank account.

Chelse: It's very new to our bank account, so yeah. I know, it's exciting and we're just ready. We feel like we survived the pre-med course a little bit together, we survived med school together, and now it's just like we're very ready for the next step.

Dr. Chan: When does the next step start?

Marcus: Well, step three is . . .

Chelse: Oh, yeah, step three.

Marcus: We're actually going to prep for a step together.

Chelse: Yeah, we do. We still got to prep for a board. We'll see how we do. We both start orientation like around June 12th or so, and then our start date is June 24th.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Wow. It's happening so fast.

Chelse: I know, and that's why it really does feel surreal. Like we think back, I remember when you called him so vividly and then his white coat. And then when you called me and then my white coat, like these huge milestones, it's crazy to think that I mean for him that was almost five years ago.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Just to watch you progress and learn and grow into your roles and I'm just excited you're going to stay around, because I'm going to run into you, you know, because I wander around a lot.

Chelse: Yeah. I'll see you on the second floor.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. I'm wandering the hospital all the time, and, you know, you guys will be in and out. I think your hours will probably get much worse.

Chelse: Yes. Yeah, we're ready.

Marcus: To be expected.

Chelse: Yeah. It's weird because we're equal parts excited and terrified, because you know there's a whole other level of responsibility. So that's scary, but at the same time you can't stay a med student, like you're very ready to move on to the next step.

Dr. Chan: Cool. Well, we'll have to have you come back and get little updates and see how like intern year is going.

Chelse: We'll have more wrinkles and gray circles, and grays, and we'll let you know.

Dr. Chan: But have more babies named after you because you helped birth them. Little Chelse babies running around.

Chelse: I know. Hopefully, I get to like birth them on my birthday. I mean it's going to be awesome. I'm so excited.

Marcus: Because you know you'll be working on your birthday.

Chelse: I know, for sure.

Dr. Chan: And then Marcus will be intubating people and bringing people back to life. You know, powerful drugs, yeah.

Chelse: We are hopeful that like one day when I'm in GYN or oncology surgery, he'll be the anesthesia resident and I can . . .

Marcus: She really looks forward to telling me to . . .

Chelse: Table up, table up, table down. Anesthesia, wake up, do your job.

Dr. Chan: The person's moving. What's going on?

Chelse: I know. Do your job. I think it will be fun to like be together.

Marcus: She really looks forward to that.

Dr. Chan: Sparking out some worries for Marcus there.

Chelse: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: Well, I'm excited for you guys. This is exciting, so this is great.

Chelse: We're excited. We feel really grateful.

Marcus: Yeah. We feel really lucky to be in a great program and together.

Chelse: We're great people. Like we know exactly what we're getting into and we're so excited about it.

Dr. Chan: Cool. All right. Well, thanks for coming on.

Marcus: Thanks.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school. A production of the Scope Health Science Radio online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What was it like to move from Beijing, China, to Provo, Utah? How does applying for the Foreign Service compared to applying to medical school? What are some innovative ways to make money while in medical school? And how does the field of ophthalmology make a really big impact in such a short amount of time?

Today on Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, I interview Ian, a third-year medical student here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world. This is Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Welcome to another edition of Talking Admissions and Med Student Life. Fantastic guest today, third-year med student, Ian. How you are you doing, Ian?

Ian: Doing great. This is quite the honor.

Dr. Chan: I've been waiting for this, Ian, because you have a lot of eclectic activities and we're going to talk about them. All right. Let's go back to the beginning.

Ian: Okay.

Dr. Chan: When did you decide to go to med school? Where did that come from?

Ian: Probably, like, high school, you know? I don't know. I think it was probably just I liked science classes and I feel like . . . you know, medicine just kind of appealed to me. I don't have any doctors in the family.

Dr. Chan: Is this Utah?

Ian: No, I went to school in Beijing.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: So my dad works for the Foreign Service. I grew up overseas mostly. So I was in the International School of Beijing. I don't know. I broke a lot of bones, so maybe that's why. And I had to get my bones set and casted and all that stuff.

Dr. Chan: Why were you breaking bones?

Ian: I don't know. Just accident-prone. I'm not particularly athletic.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: And that's probably part of the problem. But anyway, like middle school, I was playing tag. Well, elementary school, I played soccer. I broke my leg. Playing tag, broke my arm. Middle school, I was playing tag again, broke my arm. So I didn't realize the first time that was a bad idea. Broke my wrist actually. And then I broke my collarbone playing rugby in high school. And then I broke my thumb a couple years ago, but that hardly counts.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So what you're saying is brittle bones?

Ian: Brittle bones.

Dr. Chan: Accident-prone?

Ian: Brittle bone, accident-prone.

Dr. Chan: So this is in China? Were you going to hospitals a lot?

Ian: I mean, I went to the Western hospital a couple times.

Dr. Chan: Oh, there's a Western hospital?

Ian: There's a Western hospital.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right.

Ian: For the, you know, wealthy Chinese and foreigners.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. So you're there and then they just kind of . . . great doctors, great care.

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right.

Ian: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I'm not that interested in orthopedics either. I just think the kind of idea appealed to me. My brother and I watched "Scrubs," so, you know, that kind of thing.

Dr. Chan: And, you know, slightly off topic, how was it growing up in Beijing?

Ian: It was great. I liked it a lot.

Dr. Chan: There's this image of a lot of pollution, people wearing masks.

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Ten million people in the city. I'm not even sure what the number is.

Ian: There's certainly more than that, like probably over 20 million, I think. At least, you know, in the greater Beijing area, there's, you know, tens and tens of millions. I read an article recently, well, not recently, but a few years ago, that was saying that they planned on creating this huge urban corridor between Beijing and Tianjin that would have like 100 million people. And they were going to build . . . they have some high-speed rails going through and they were just going to basically build all that up.

But anyway, it was good. I kind of lived in the suburbs, so my friends and I liked to pretend we lived in an American suburb, go to McDonald's, and, you know, once I got my learner's permit or whatever, we'd just kind of drive around.

Dr. Chan: Was it behind gates or walls, or was it just kind of open? I assume there's security everywhere though.

Ian: No, I mean, it was pretty open. We lived in gated compounds, but it's not like it was unsafe outside the gated compound so that we were stuck in the compounds. We'd always go out, and our school was about two miles away from my house. And so we just had our own community. We didn't go into town super often.

Dr. Chan: How big was the school? How many students?

Ian: My high school there was 600.

Dr. Chan: Oh, fairly big.

Ian: It was pretty big. And then it was a high school, middle school, and elementary school together, so total 1,800 or so.

Dr. Chan: All taught in English though?

Ian: All in English. Yeah, you had to have . . .

Dr. Chan: Chinese classes, though, if you wanted to, right?

Ian: Right. Yeah, with varying levels of efficacy. The schools, it was about 1,800 people and you had to have a foreign passport to go there. So it was all foreigners.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: Yeah. I'd say maybe 40% Americans.

Dr. Chan: That's pretty cool. You probably had friends from all around the world.

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Learned to speak Chinese I assume?

Ian: Some.

Dr. Chan: Some?

Ian: Not amazingly. Like I said, we'd like to pretend we lived in American suburb. So there wasn't too much language learning, but I got a bit of a foundation.

Dr. Chan: Were you able to travel the countryside and kind of see all the sites?

Ian: Yeah. We traveled quite a bit. Let's see. When I was in high school, they had trips every year organized by the school. That was pretty fun. Called China Links or China Studies. So for that, my freshman year, we went to Inner Mongolia and rode bikes for a week, which was really fun. And then I think in 11th grade, we went to Pingyao, which is this ancient walled city.

Dr. Chan: Is that where the terracotta warriors are?

Ian: No. That's in Xi'an.

Dr. Chan: So Pingyao is like an overnight train ride away from Beijing. When you're in high school, you're vaguely aware of geography.

Dr. Chan: You think it's normal. Everyone lives in China.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. And you take a taxi, I'm in town. You know, I don't really know where anything is relation to each other. But then our senior year went to Yangshuo in Kweilin, which is . . . you know, they have all those paintings of the rolling hills in China. And that's sort of where that originates from. They have all the cool mountains and rivers and stuff. Feng shui is really great.

Dr. Chan: So graduate from international school.

Ian: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: Where'd you go to college?

Ian: I went to BYU.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: The only place I applied. My brother went there. My sister went there. My parents went there.

Dr. Chan: Legacy.

Ian: That's right. It's the family tradition. And back then, they published the graph, you know, where it's like, "Oh, your GPA and your ACT score. If you are above this, you'll get in. And if you have this, you'll get a scholarship." I don't think they publish that anymore. But back then, it was just this great grid system. So I was like, "Oh, okay. I'd be pretty assured that I would get in."

Dr. Chan: So how's it feel to jump from Beijing to Provo? Pretty similar?

Ian: It's not the same, you know? It's like similar feel. There was definitely some culture shock.

Dr. Chan: Like what? What was kind of shocking?

Ian: I mean, I'd come back for summers to Utah because both my parents are from Provo, and I had a lot of family in Provo. So from that aspect it was nice, but on the other hand, it was sort of just kind of a different background. But fortunately, BYU, there were a lot of people that I knew from high school and stuff that went there too. So it's not like I was alone in my in my culture shock. But a lot of people who just had different experiences. But, you know, I think college is always sort of a shock for everybody.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. It's a big jump. Living in the dorms. I assume you lived in the dorms?

Ian: I lived in the dorms, Helaman Halls.

Dr. Chan: Helaman Halls, got to love it.

Ian: It's classic.

Dr. Chan: All right. So you get to BYU, still thinking medicine. What kind of activities did you start doing? How did you kind of solidify that and how did you get ready for med school?

Ian: I'm trying to think. So I started off as a biology major, and then I went and served a mission in California speaking Chinese. That's sort of where I, you know, finally, actually solidified my ability to speak Chinese.

Dr. Chan: I know it's several years in the rearview mirror. Little disappointed with the California call?

Ian: Yeah, you know . . .

Dr. Chan: Were you kind of hoping for the Hong Kong, Taiwan?

Ian: I knew when I got the package. It wasn't thick enough, you know. Couldn't have any visa papers in it, but oh well. It ended up being fine.

Dr. Chan: Water under the bridge?

Ian: Exactly. My dad went to Taiwan. My brother went to Taiwan. I was just trying to follow in the family tradition. But it's okay. California was fun and I had a great time.

So I did that for two years. Then I came back and switched my major to Chinese because I liked studying Chinese and it was fun. And I figured it'd be easier and that could sort of pad my schedule of Chinese classes. And, you know, kind of more of a unique angle. And then I . . .

Dr. Chan: Were you shadowing doctors? Were you doing community service? What kind of stuff were you doing?

Ian: I didn't do a ton of shadowing. I did the Red Cross. I sort of did some volunteer teaching of CPR for a while. And then I joined the Chinese flagship program, which is a two-year thing. One is domestic and the other is abroad. So it's like a study abroad program. Federal government gives you $15,000 and you go overseas, you go to China, and we did one semester at Nanjing University.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, I remember that on your application.

Ian: And then one semester, internship.

Dr. Chan: There's a lot of China stuff in your application.

Ian: Yeah. I just really, you know, took the China angle and ran with it.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, that's cool.

Ian: It got me in here.

Dr. Chan: That's your corner.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. So I was in China for a year. For my internship, I was at an ER at this Western hospital, same place where I went when I broke my collarbone and stuff and my wrist.

Dr. Chan: See, circle of life.

Ian: Yeah, exactly, circle of life.

Dr. Chan: Now you just need to match in that residency out there.

Ian: Yes, that's right. Yeah. The Beijing United residency, it's the highly coveted.

Dr. Chan: It's combined classics ENT, ortho, opto.

Ian: Yes. That's right. Just so I can get everything . . .

Dr. Chan: It's only eight years. It's a secret . . .

Ian: It's eight years, and don't forget traditional . . .

Dr. Chan: Dr. Stevenson has the secret website. He can send you a little more about it.

Ian: And traditional Chinese medicine fellowship that you can do.

Dr. Chan: Acupuncture.

Ian: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: We could make a lot money if we created that.

Ian: Yeah, I know. That's true. Like, all the alternative medicine things not covered by insurance. So, yeah, I went back there and then . . .

Dr. Chan: And I think you did research in Chinese language or something like that? Didn't you?

Ian: Yeah, I did. I got a grant. Well, I did one research project. It was sort of a public health research project, where I went to Taiwan. And I got a grant from BYU to do this. I went to Taiwan, and I did a survey of medical students to see what kind of their specialty choices were, because Taiwan has this rapidly aging population, to see how many people would be interested in going to geriatrics, essentially.

That was only mildly successful. I did get some people to fill the survey out, but it wasn't as easy as I expected. And then I did a two-month research internship thing at Academia Sinica, which is the big research institution in Taipei. So that was really fun.

Dr. Chan: Cool. All right. So applying to med schools. Obviously, you got in.

Ian: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: You know, talking about your jump from Beijing to the Provo, how was that jump from undergrad to med school? Easy? Hard?

Ian: It was fine. I think it was fine for me. It was a little harder just because, you know, there was a lot of transition. I had just gotten married, and I barely got into med school, first off. You know, I had good test scores. I had a good MCAT, and I had a good GPA, and I had all this other experience. I thought I was going to be the bee's knees and everyone would be clamoring to, you know, admit me.

Dr. Chan: Wanting Ian?

Ian: Yeah, exactly. So I only applied 11 places, which was . . .

Dr. Chan: Oh, that number is low.

Ian: Yeah, it was kind of stupid in retrospect. And then I also applied really ambitiously. I was like, "Oh, well, I'm such a boss. I will definitely get in." And I ended up not . . .

I got an interview at Duke early, and so that was encouraging, and I thought I was really awesome. And then there was some snafu with my application here where they rejected one of my letters and then they didn't tell me until after the deadline and I was going to have to wait for another cycle. I ended up appealing it and it was fine. But I interviewed a little bit later here, and then I interviewed at UVA, and then I got in here off the waitlist.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: And that's it. So I didn't have any other offers.

Dr. Chan: Did you call up UVA and Duke and say, "Take me off your waitlist. I'm in"? Or were kind of secretly hoping . . .

Ian: No. I was rejected from Duke.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: I was rejected from Duke in March. And then at UVA I was on the waitlist.

Dr. Chan: The waitlist, it's not a good place to be.

Ian: Yeah. You never know.

Dr. Chan: People have told me it's actually better . . . a lot of people feel that it's better to not be accepted or rejected because then you know, because the waitlist is just this indefinite, ambiguous future.

Ian: Yeah, a nebulous thing.

Dr. Chan: You can't really plan things around.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it was it was pretty . . . I was having some sort of existential crises at the time, you know. I was like, "Do I really want to apply again?" Fortunately, I got off the waitlist here, and I think it only took like three or four weeks.

Dr. Chan: Were you thinking about the Foreign Service at all?

Ian: I did take the test. So I took the written exam and I passed it. The next section is the PNQs, personal narrative questions.

Dr. Chan: Oh. I thought it was a group interview thing they do?

Ian: There is. That's the third step.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay.

Ian: So the second step is the PNQs. And that's probably the hardest because it basically entails lying about your accomplishments and like making yourself sounds unbelievably awesome, like unbelievably awesome. Like, "No one of my age group . . ."

Dr. Chan: Doesn't this kind of sound like med school applications?

Ian: Yeah, it does. It definitely does.

Dr. Chan: You have to toot your horn a little bit.

Ian: Yeah, you definitely do. This one is actually kind of . . . like, it's crazy. I read my brother's, and I had to break out in laughter several times. Like, "You didn't do that."

And so, you know, lots of fabrication goes into it. I didn't fabricate well enough, and so I didn't pass that section. But anyway, that was sort of out. Or I think I was waiting on the results of that. I think I heard in May or something that I didn't pass that part. And then also there was this sort of investment banking program thing out of . . .

Dr. Chan: Wow. You really were kind of . . .

Ian: I was scrambling. I was definitely scrambling.

Dr. Chan: You were just married. You could have told your wife that you just wanted to . . .

Ian: I was engaged. I was not quite engaged.

Dr. Chan: You just want to stay home and play video games and mine gold coin?

Ian: Exactly. And have her go gold farming. Play World of Warcraft or something.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, I'm sure that would have been really great at the beginning of your relationship.

Ian: Well, she told me that if I went to work for Goldman Sachs then I might have to marry someone else.

Dr. Chan: Whoa.

Ian: Yeah. She did not want to be married to an investment banker.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: So anyway, fortunately, I got into BYU. So we didn't have to cross that bridge.

Dr. Chan: And then easy, harder than undergrad? I mean, what was your biggest surprise as far as curriculum goes, as far learning?

Ian: I thought it was pretty manageable, honestly. The first two years were quite nice. I watched most lectures from home on my laptop at 2x speed. And, you know, I'm a big proponent of diminishing marginal returns. So I'd study for maybe six hours a day, but any more than that and it's sort of hard to focus. You know, certain days, of course, you study more and certain days you study less. Just sort of trying to balance life and stuff like that.

Dr. Chan: So all very doable? Do it well.

Ian: Oh, totally.

Dr. Chan: Were you involved any extracurriculars or student interest groups during the first couple of years?

Ian: Yeah. I was in the AMA group. And so I was a delegate to the AMA.

Together: Against Medical Advice.

Ian: Against Medical Advice. The American Medical Association.

Dr. Chan: Which is a very ironic position to take when you're in med school.

Ian: Yes, of course. The Association Against Medical Advice. So the AMA, that was fun. So I went to Chicago and Hawaii to two of the meetings.

Dr. Chan: Sweet.

Ian: And so that was interesting. And then I was in the Health and Human Rights Club. I sort of helped run that.

Dr. Chan: What's that about?

Ian: So it was started by . . . I think her name is Susan. I hope she doesn't listen to this because I'd feel bad. I'm pretty sure . . .

Dr. Chan: Ian, over 10 million people listen to this.

Ian: I know. The circulation . . .

Dr. Chan: There will be a few Susans.

Ian: That's right.

Dr. Chan: Susan, wherever you are, a shout-out to you.

Ian: She was a fourth-year student, and she sort of started this group. She was really into global health and that kind of thing. And so, essentially, sort of to raise the profile of human rights issues in health care and get people to . . . We threw a couple panels and lunch lectures with people who are involved with the community. Dr. Franchek was our faculty advisor. She does a lot of stuff with ACE, adverse childhood experiences. She's a pediatrician.

So yeah, just stuff like that, just sort of more humanist, societal issues, and consideration of those as a student.

Dr. Chan: That's really cool. I heard about that group, but didn't know too much about it.

Ian: Yeah. It was cool.

Dr. Chan: What about jumping into research? Did you do any research the first couple of years?

Ian: Yeah. So I did the MSRP.

Dr. Chan: Medical Student Research Program.

Ian: I'm just throwing down the acronym jargon here.

Dr. Chan: And I'm interpreting for the audience.

Ian: Yes, that's right. So I'd heard I heard good things about ophthalmology, so I got involved with the Fourth Street, the homeless clinic down at the Fourth Street for ophthalmology, and then I contacted a research mentor at the Moran, Dr. Tian. He is from China, and so we kind of connected over that. And then all his people . . .

Dr. Chan: I love it. You play all . . .

Ian: All the people in his lab are from China.

Dr. Chan: When you started corresponding with them, did you talk in Chinese?

Ian: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Chan: And then you just showed up

Ian: Yes, exactly. He's like, "Oh, another Chinese researcher." He gets a lot of Chinese research fellows who come from China, and then his wife works in the lab and she's Chinese, and then he has a graduate student who is American and doesn't speak Chinese. He's the only one. So I did some bench research there dissecting mice eyes and stuff like that.

Dr. Chan: Cool.

Ian: And had a good time. I coauthored this paper with a Chinese fellow researcher. So, yeah, that was fun. I got to use my language skills and did a research project there. I'll be presenting it at the Association for Research in Vision and Ophthalmology in April or whatever. But yeah, so that was good. Did that and then I sort of was working with him as well.

Dr. Chan: I became aware of another activity you were doing during the first couple of years. I was going to ask you about that because I find it fascinating. So how did you make a little money during the first couple of years?

Ian: Well, you know, had a little bit of extra time watching my lectures on 2x speed. So I decided to drive for Uber.

Dr. Chan: Fascinating. Do you know of any other med student who was an Uber driver or Lyft driver?

Ian: I know Scott from my year.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: Eldrich. He did some Lyfts. I know he did it previous to med school and maybe over the summer.

Dr. Chan: So how many hours a week were you Ubering?

Ian: Well, I got a little bit obsessed when I was first starting out. I'm trying to remember exactly how many I did, but it may have been like 50 or something like that.

Dr. Chan: Fifty hours? Okay. Wow.

Ian: It may have been, the first week or two. Because it's kind of like a game, you know? You sign up on the app and you get pinged and you're like, "Okay. I'm going to go."

At one point, I remember I was looking at my phone at 10:00 p.m. one night and it was surging. That's when the price doubles or triples and you can make more money. And so it was surging, so I jumped out of bed and I threw on some clothes and went out.

Dr. Chan: Practicing, like, "I'll go to the OR."

Ian: Yeah, exactly. I was like, "Oh, I can make so much money." I think I made like eight bucks for a five-minute trip. But anyway, it was just fun. I like to chat with the people.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So would you reveal that you were studying medicine in medical school?

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Or would you not talk about yourself? I mean, how did that play out?

Ian: It kind of depended on the conversation, just where it went, and we'd just chat and see what they were up to. And, you know, I'd tell them that I was a medical student just making some money on the side. So, yeah, it was fun.

I met . . . let's see. I'm trying to remember. I think I met some friends of one of my classmates. It was like one of my classmate's parents or friends of her parents or something like that. Yeah, I met some interesting people.

Dr. Chan: Sundance just happened. So were you really excited because . . . you know, a celebrity sighting might go up. Would you get anyone famous ever in your car?

Ian: Well, no. The stupid thing is I started like mid-February. It was right after Sundance, which doesn't make any sense because you can make a ton of money doing Sundance, but I also drove a Toyota Corolla. It was like a 2004.

Dr. Chan: Are those your wheels?

Ian: Yeah. I was missing a hubcap when I started too. I'm sure I rolled up and people were like, "Really?"

Dr. Chan: Did you have little snacks? I heard people putting little snacks in the backseat to kind of sell the experience.

Ian: I didn't do that because it's kind of ridiculous. You don't get any benefit from having a good . . . You need good ratings, but I got five stars by just chatting, just driving this crappy car, you know? And I think anything else would have been kind of overkill.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: But anyway, I did that for a couple months. And then after that, Trevor Annis, he has some friends who run this company that collects signatures for political campaigns. And so we did that. That was more lucrative than Uber. So I started doing that instead. So we were gathering signatures for . . .

Dr. Chan: So backing up . . .

Ian: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Going back to Uber, any medical emergencies? Did you ever have to use medical school skills? Any babies being born?

Ian: No babies. So no babies, no traumatic injuries.

Dr. Chan: So there was no blending of your two worlds, Uber and medical school?

Ian: Unfortunately not. On the other hand . . .

Dr. Chan: You ever drive anyone right to the hospital?

Ian: It's probably fortunate that that didn't happen because I would have been like, "Oh, yeah, let's see. Well, we learned in Foundations . . ." I wouldn't have known anything.

Dr. Chan: And again, going back to Uber, what insight do you have about human behavior? People just love going to the airport? I mean, you must have picked up some things just doing that so much.

Ian: You know, I think people are generally friendly and are generally pleasant. That was one of the things that I maybe picked up. There were a couple, you know, bad apples. One, ironically, was an investment banker who talked about how he used women for breeding.

When I said, "I'm sorry your wife threw you out of your house," he's like, "Oh, that's okay. I use women for breeding." I was like, "Man, you're a horrible human." And then he didn't even tip me, which was just horrible.

Anyway, I was young. You know, in the service industry, you try to accommodate people. You don't want to call them out too much.

Dr. Chan: Did you ever learn about really great hidden restaurants because people kept on going there?

Ian: No, not really. It was more like just airport and then some other sort of random community work, stuff like that.

Dr. Chan: And then jumping to the signature gathering, would you be the guy outside the supermarket doing your thing or going door-to-door?

Ian: Yeah. Door-to-door.

Dr. Chan: Going door-to-door?

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Going back to the doors? Wow.

Ian: Yeah. That's the life.

Dr. Chan: [inaudible 00:23:35] missionaries. Yeah.

Ian: Yeah, that's right. Hey, it beats sales, because you're not really selling anything. You're just kind of gathering signatures. It doesn't cost them anything. The company is called Gather.

Dr. Chan: Were you paid by signature or just by hour?

Ian: Paid by signature.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: So we were collecting signatures for Tanner Ainge, who was running for Congress. I think it was . . . whose seat? Jason Chaffetz. He announced he wasn't running for reelection.

Dr. Chan: Ultimately unsuccessful.

Ian: Yes, he was ultimately unsuccessful. Because in Utah if you get enough signatures, you can get your name on the ballot even if you don't get nominated at the party convention.

Dr. Chan: That was pretty controversial. There was a lot of a kerfuffle about this.

Ian: Yeah. I mean, I think it's good. I think it was sort of designed to diminish the Republican Party's stranglehold on the primary process. But anyway, so we got $5 a signature, which is pretty awesome.

Dr. Chan: Five bucks a signature? Wow.

Ian: Yeah. It's pretty great. And so we'd just go door-to-door.

Dr. Chan: How would they verify it though? What would stop someone from just signing or faking . . .

Ian: So they'd send it to the Lieutenant Governor's office, and then they would verify all the signatures. So they'd you pay 50% . . .

Dr. Chan: So it's more than a signature? You'd have to probably write down your contact information, address, and all that stuff? Okay.

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So there's some background info that people are required to give.

Ian: Right, that they can verify. And then they'd pay you 50% up front and then they'd pay you the rest of whatever. So if your signatures were verified at 90%, then they'd pay an additional 40% or the rest . . . like 40% or whatever of the $5 at the end once all the signatures have been verified. So that was pretty good.

Dr. Chan: So would this company . . . just any cause? I mean, would you have the choice to be like, "You know what? I don't support this candidate or I don't support this petition"?

Ian: Yes. You do have a choice. You don't have to do it if you don't want to. But if you don't want to make money . . .

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Ian: You know, I was just a hired gun. After that, we did ballot initiatives. So we had the marijuana bill. We had Utah . . . let's see. It was the . . .

Dr. Chan: I love it. You're bringing up all these controversial things. We'll just go there on this podcast.

Ian: I know, yeah. It was marijuana ballot initiative. There was one for schools and one to change the signature gathering process to make it easier for people to get on the ballot. And so I gathered signatures for those. That was only $2 a signature.

Dr. Chan: Would they give you some talking points or . . .

Ian: Yeah, they gave us some talking points. I mean, I could repeat them if you really want me to. It's been a little while though.

Dr. Chan: I'm just kind of fascinated because again . . .

Ian: It's been over a year.

Dr. Chan: . . . there is this perception that people who do those things are volunteers because they really believe in these things.

Ian: Yeah. That was a nice . . .

Dr. Chan: Apparently, there's this other side of the industry where they're hired guns.

Ian: Yes. And I think some of the initiatives had part volunteers, part us, like us hired guns. But they don't know. So the thing is, they think we're volunteering, so they're like . . . even if they didn't want to sign, they'd be like, "Oh, you know, I don't really want to sign, but thank you so much for doing this and supporting our democracy." So I think that's a very different response.

Dr. Chan: You would say in your brain, "I'm actually supporting capitalism."

Ian: Yeah, exactly. You know, they go hand-in-hand, democracy and capitalism. And as long as we're talking about side hustle, the only thing we've been doing since last February or end of January . . .

Dr. Chan: I love that they call it side hustle.

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Like, in addition to your other activities outside of med school.

Ian: Yes, that's right. So we bought a car, a Subaru Outback.

Dr. Chan: I remember you telling me this story.

Ian: So we rent that out through an app called Turo. So it's a 2009 Subaru Outback. Anyone listening, you're welcome to rent it. It's a little bit more expensive during the winter season. We raised the prices because we have a ski rack on it.

Dr. Chan: So it's kind of an Uber way of a rental car agency.

Ian: Yeah, it's kind of an Airbnb for cars. So it's more passive income. We drop it off at the airport. In fact, I'll go pick it up tomorrow morning. And then we have another renter picking it up tomorrow night.

Dr. Chan: But you own this car?

Ian: We own the car.

Dr. Chan: So if it gets stolen, or someone doesn't return it, or drives it and abandons it in Wyoming . . . there are probably these things that start happening, right?

Ian: So we charge a certain amount. We get three-fourths of that, and one-fourth of it . . .

Dr. Chan: There are damages.

Ian: Yeah. We have insurance through Turo. So we don't have to use our own personal insurance. Our first renter crashed the car within three hours of renting it, which was a huge headache and a nightmare because it was our first renter. We don't know if they're going to screw us over.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And I'm sure your wife . . . this is more of your idea than your wife's idea, right?

Ian: No, it was her idea.

Dr. Chan: Her idea?

Ian: So the way this happened is I had a friend applying here and he was telling me he did this. I don't know if you remember [inaudible 00:28:41]. Anyway, he was one of my companions on the mission for, like, seven months. And so he was doing this and I was like, "Oh, this is actually not a bad idea."

So I mentioned it to my wife, and then she was like, "Oh, yeah, let's do it." And I was like, "Well, actually, I don't know if I want to do it anymore. Sounds like it might be more hassle than it's worth." And then she was like, "No, we definitely should do it." So we went and bought a car that week and then started renting it. Anyway, I get much more stressed out about the car than she does.

Dr. Chan: It's good. You know, your car is kind of part of you.

Ian: And this car has had tons of issues. In addition to this crash . . . I won't get into the details, but it was a huge headache. The engine died, and it turned out the oil burned out, which is horrible, like one of the worst things that can happen to your car.

Dr. Chan: That's really bad.

Ian: The engine was [inaudible 00:29:26].

Dr. Chan: Oil is the blood of the car.

Ian: When we bought the car, we bought it used. They had this warranty, this comprehensive warranty. I thought warranties were a scam, but we got it transferred to our name and stuff, and fortunately this is the best warranty ever and they replaced the engine for free.

Dr. Chan: Oh, wow.

Ian: It was like a $4,300 repair. So we got a new engine, and then the alternator went out. They replaced that for free. The axle broke. They replaced that for free. The axle on one of the front wheels, like in a weird way, and that would have been an expensive repair.

Dr. Chan: I just have in my mind when people return rental cars, they do really nasty things to the inside of it sometimes. So I don't know if you've had to deal with that?

Ian: Not so much.

Dr. Chan: Like sand.

Ian: It's not super sandy here. I don't know if you know of any nice beaches around.

Dr. Chan: Like cups of Coca-Cola being turned over. The rental car agency just kind of cleans it.

Ian: I think people have a little bit more of a sense of conscientiousness when it's someone's personal car that they're renting, you know? They feel a little bit more responsible.

Dr. Chan: So at Subway at 1:00 in the morning, they could just . . .

Ian: So we have . . .

Dr. Chan: . . . throw their food down.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. Not so much like that. So we haven't had that many issues that way, just mechanical issues with the car definitely.

Dr. Chan: Jump to third year. What rotations have you done already?

Ian: So I have everything but surgery and internal medicine. So I started with peds, and then I did psych, family, OB, and I am finishing up neuro.

Dr. Chan: Best rotation so far?

Ian: I think family.

Dr. Chan: Why?

Ian: Because I went up to Heber. It was like rural-ish, rural enough to be rural, but not too rural, so I could come back on the weekends and stuff.

Dr. Chan: You use Uber to come back?

Ian: Yeah, of course. No, actually, I blocked my car out for that month or whatever. My preceptor is really great, Dr. Lofgran. He was really nice. And he taught me a lot and he let me do a lot as well. So, you know, you start feeling like a real doctor and . . .

Dr. Chan: Full scope family practice.

Ian: Yeah, full scope. He didn't really do any kind GYN/OB stuff, but he did everything else and . . .

Dr. Chan: Babies, kids?

Ian: Yeah. Babies, kids, adults.

Dr. Chan: Elderly.

Ian: Yeah. And it was just really nice. They all liked him a lot. And you could tell that they all had a relationship and it was really fun. I liked it. It was kind of nice to be outside of the mothership, you know? Out in Heber. And you feel a little bit more isolated, but in a good way. So, yeah, I think that was good.

I liked aspects of OB/GYN. I think the medicine, like the actual intellectual part of GYN in particular was really interesting. I didn't love the rotation though. The hours were kind of long. And neuro has been interesting. Peds was okay. Psych was good. But, yeah. So there you go.

Dr. Chan: I'm not going to hold you to it, but what are you thinking of doing?

Ian: Probably ophthalmology.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Have you done a rotation, an official rotation?

Ian: Yeah, I did do . . . I forgot to mention, my two electives, I did ENT and ophthalmology, two weeks of each.

Dr. Chan: And did you just feel like these are your people, like this is fun, this interesting? I mean, did it resonate with you in some way?

Ian: So I think it's hard to get a sense, especially for something like ophthalmology where you're just in a dark room and you can't do that much.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. The surgical field is very small.

Ian: Yeah. You know, I looked in the slit lamp and I looked through the lens and I got better at looking at the back of the eye and that kind of thing. But we don't really get much ophthalmology training in school. So it's sort of hard to say what's going on too much.

And the doctor that they put you with in the rotation, whose name I will not mention, he is not particularly interested in having students around, or at least that is the impression that I got. So it wasn't the best experience for that week. My week at the VA was pretty good. It didn't blow me away, but it wasn't like . . . You know, nothing is really like . . .

Dr. Chan: What attracts you to the field then? Why do you want to pursue this?

Ian: I like the hours, I like the lifestyle, and I think I do like . . . I think the patient population is good. You know, older people. And I also like the fact that they can get in there and really fix things. Cataract surgeries are amazing.

Dr. Chan: Because lifestyle, like hours, you can pick a lot of fields, like dermatology. So I'm just still curious why the eye?

Ian: I think it has also the potential to make a big impact. I see myself doing humanitarian work in the future overseas, and ophthalmology strikes me as a field that you can make a really big impact in a short amount of time. There's not much post-op follow-up or care necessary. And I think these sort of medical humanitarian initiatives across the world are very effective.

Dr. Chan: That's a really good point because if you think about it, if someone has really bad cataracts and can't see . . . I don't know. Half-hour or hour operation . . .

Ian: Ten minutes.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Ten minutes when Ian is in charge.

Ian: Exactly. When you're as efficient as I am . . .

Dr. Chan: And you go from not seeing to seeing, mean, that's huge. It is amazing. That's life changing.

Ian: Yeah. It is amazing. And I think, you know, retinal issues and stuff like that . . . I'm attracted to neurology stuff as well.

Dr. Chan: I wish other fields of medicine worked that way. I get the sense . . . I feel that in medicine there's a chronicity, a chronic nature to a lot of diseases.

Ian: Absolutely.

Dr. Chan: But I think ophthalmology, especially with cataracts, there's this ability to go in and boom, take care of it. It's done.

Ian: Yeah. I think that aspect is quite rewarding. But it also has that sort of chronicity of care for other diseases, like macular degeneration and stuff like that. You know, there are also a lot of cool gadgets and stuff people always talk about. But I think just, in general, it's a good field for both lifestyle, you get some medicine, you got some surgery, and at the end of the day, you can feel like you made a big impact.

Dr. Chan: All right. Cool. Well, last few minutes, Ian. This has been great. You recently published an article. Why don't you just talk about it? What are your thoughts and feelings?

Ian: Okay. Well, you know . . .

Dr. Chan: I am giving you the mic.

Ian: Yes. Here we go. I published an article . . .

Dr. Chan: Let me say this. Dr. Chan neither agrees or disagrees with Ian's following position.

Ian: Yes, thanks. Way to CYA there a little bit.

Dr. Chan: I was just covering myself there.

Ian: Yes, that's right. So this is I think an issue that would resonate with any third-year medical student and has in my experience. So I recently published an article in Doximity called "Clerkship Evaluation Scores Are Useless."

Because leading up to medical school, getting into medical school, you know, there's a big emphasis on test scores, which are an imperfect measure of your ability, but at least are . . .

Dr. Chan: Kind of goes against holistic review.

Ian: Right. And at least are somewhat standardized. Holistic review is fine too. Getting your other extracurricular activities in, research, that's fine. I think everyone's sort of on a level playing field, but once you get into third-year, you get these evaluations from attendings, which are based not so much on your ability as much as what the person usually gives people.

So for anyone that's listening and is in their first and second year, this is a piece of advice that I wish I had gotten at the beginning of third-year, which is if you are ever offered an option for where to go for your rotations, don't pick what you're interested in. Pick what the third- and fourth-year students ahead of you tell you will get you the best score, because that's what matters.

And these clerkship scores, they are so arbitrary. And you can work your tail off and get a terrible evaluation just because, you know, somebody gives bad evaluations.

And it's from a scale of 1 to 4 and a lot of people don't really understand the system either. And so they just sort of . . . it's like they may as well be throwing a dart at a dartboard when they're evaluating you. So it's frustrating.

Dr. Chan: So I read your article. My take from it was that a medical student, you . . . and I assume this has happened to you. It happened to me. You work really, really hard. You show up early, stay up late, do a lot of research, get to know your patients, do all this work, and you're getting positive vibes, positive compliments.

Ian: Right. And even positive written feedback.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Two to three, four weeks later, you get your official score back. And the numerical score is lower.

Ian: Yeah, it's like 2 out of 4.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And there doesn't sound like there's an adequate explanation. And your question is, "Is this the best system? What is going on?"

Ian: And there are other people you work with for one day, and they give you 4 out of 4 just because they're like, "Well, I want to help them out." Nobody really understands the system or that it has an impact. I think some people don't think it has an impact. Some people think that a 2 is a reasonable score, whereas other people think if you don't do anything really egregious, you should get a 4. So I think the scoring system is just sort of arbitrary.

Dr. Chan: I enjoyed your article. I think you actually talked about a solution. And I'll say this with a caveat. This issue is not unique to our school. This is a problem across the country.

Ian: Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Chan: So what's your solution?

Ian: I think that there are a number of solutions that could be implemented. I just included one in my article for the purposes of the 1,000 word count. But, you know, I think this would be a reasonable solution, which is to take the numbers away, because a lot of times, the written evaluation . . . many times, there's not much thought that goes into them, but that's okay because that just doesn't tell them anything.

But if there is thought taken and they do describe your behavior and the things you were good and bad at, I think that's a better view of what kind of student you were.

And the number sort of lends this veneer of objectivity when no objectivity was used in their creation. A test score, there is some objectivity because you got the question wrong or you got the question right. You either got the point or didn't get the point.

Whereas with these scores, they're sort of arbitrarily assigned. And so, they lend this sort of veneer of objectivity that then course directors or residency directors can look at and be like, "Okay, he's a 4 student," or, "He's a 2 student."

I think, as humans, we generally tend to do that. And then we dismiss the other . . . or maybe we glance at the actual description, but we look at the numbers first.

Dr. Chan: So more of a qualitative instead of quantitative.

Ian: Yeah. I think a qualitative assessment would be reasonable, whereas this quantitative assessment is just all over the board. And I cited an article in there that I think said that scores are all over the place, but often the qualitative description of a student is still reliable.

Dr. Chan: So I think just to provide a counterpoint . . . I love it. I think this is fascinating. When you apply to residency programs, you'll have something called MSPE, the Medical Students Performance Evaluation.

Ian: Right.

Dr. Chan: And there is this scoring aspect to it, but there's also a written narrative where I think they try to take the written narrative and kind of create this big paragraph to kind of provide a counterbalance. I'm not sure, you know, if that's as successful as it can be.

But I hear what you're saying. Taking away this arbitrary score and focus more on the comments. What if the same thing starts happening with professors or faculty? Everyone says "excellent" instead of circling the score. Everything starts sounding the same. How do programs differentiate?

Ian: And that's the problem. You know, there's always going to be some amount of . . . the only reason why we have this system is because certain residences are more competitive than others.

Dr. Chan: Correct.

Ian: And it's more and more difficult to match. And so you need to find a way to stratify students into those, I guess, who are worthy of going into their desired field.

But, you know, my perspective is that most students, like 99%, maybe 95% of students are just fine. They're where they're supposed to be. They show up, they do their work. There's maybe 2% that are amazing students. And there's maybe 2% or 3% who are just horrible humans, like sort of sociopaths who somehow got through the process and are just terrible. And I think . . .

Dr. Chan: I love it, Ian. You're talking to the admissions dean.

Ian: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: My goal is not to admit those people.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. You've got to get rid of those people. And so scoring and evaluations, they serve a purpose. They maybe highlight this top 2% and then they maybe screen out this 2% or 3% sociopathic psychopaths, and then the rest of them are just okay. So it's hard to stratify. And any system might be somewhat arbitrary in that sense.

Dr. Chan: I think it's really hard because you're talking about assigning value to human behavior being administered by a lot of different people. And it's this complex system interacting with each other.

Ian: How do you create a metric that is truly objective?

Dr. Chan: I guarantee you that the various faculty in the different departments and divisions have had training modules about "This is what you do. This is how you fill these in." And they've sat there . . .

Ian: And it makes no difference.

Dr. Chan: And they certify that . . . you know, people take attendance. And you can say, "Where did these HIPAA modules come from?" It's the same problem. So how do you train people to do what's right and what's best? But then when they sit through all this training and they go out and they still kind of do this, "Okay, well, then we need to pull them out. They can't teach our students." Then it's, "Okay, we're at the university. Everyone should be teaching the students. That's kind of part of our mission." So I'm very sympathetic.

Ian: Some people are harsher than others. That's the way it is.

Dr. Chan: How do you manage that? How do you control that? How do you modulate for that?

Ian: Well, I think taking away the numerical score just sort of minimizes the impact, which I think is probably better. I think then they have to focus on your research. They have to focus on your Step scores, which are also not the best, but at least everyone's sort of on a level playing field. And they focus on other things, whereas on this, it's just sort of arbitrary.

Dr. Chan: These residency programs are getting thousands of applicants. And they're just kind of like . . . they're just trying to . . .

Ian: You have to stratify.

Dr. Chan: Or thin the herd.

Ian: Yeah, exactly. Weed out the weak.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. How do we do that? And then start using things like Step-1 scores or Step-2 scores, all that kind of stuff.

Ian: Yeah. But anyway, I think clerkship scores have a bit of a ways to go.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Cool. All right. Well, Ian, we're out of time.

Ian: Okay.

Dr. Chan: I've loved this. We'll have you come back.

Ian: Oh, that's . . .

Dr. Chan: You and your wife, you're these little mini entrepreneurs. I think it's just . . .

Ian: Emphasis on mini.

Dr. Chan: All right. You're these mega entrepreneurs.

Ian: No, definitely mini. Definitely mini entrepreneurs.

Dr. Chan: If your wife is listening, please, we want more ideas.

Ian: Yes, that's right.

Dr. Chan: I want Ian, drones, Uber. I want some medical care.

Ian: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: Eye exams. I want some sort of idea to put it all together.

Ian: Yes, that's right. I'm going to have the Uber of ophthalmology. My practice is the Uber of ophthalmology, whatever that means.

Dr. Chan: I like that.

Ian: Yeah. There you go.

Dr. Chan: All right. Cool. Thanks, Ian.

Ian: Thank you.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Talking Admissions and Med Student Life with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school. A production of The Scope Health Sciences Radio online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What is it like to become the first official couple in your class? How soon do you start thinking about couples matching for residency when dating? What is the most important aspect when couples matching? Finally, how does it feel to have your parents meet for the very first time on match day? Today on Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, I interview Madison and Noah, a successful couples match and recent graduates here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world, this is Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Well, welcome to another edition of Talking Admissions and Med Student Life. I've got two great guests today, Madison and Noah. Hello.

Madison: Hey.

Noah: Hi, Dr. Chan.

Dr. Chan: Fourth-year medical students, soon to be full-fledged MDs. So let's start from the beginning. There's a reason why I'm having you both on today. You met in medical school. We were just talking about that. Where did you guys meet for the first time?

Noah: So we didn't really know each other at all. I think the place where we really first started to get to know each other and really started to bond is we were just kind of coincidentally put in the same anatomy lab group and that was where everything started.

Madison: Yeah. The first time we ever spoke was at this bar downtown during orientation week, but it was just like a really . . . I asked you about having Celiac disease because you were drinking a cider instead of a beer and it was like a two-second conversation. Then the next day, we found out our anatomy groups and we were both group eight along with two other of our classmates. We both grew up out West. I'm from Salt Lake City originally. Noah's from Boise, Idaho. We bonded about going away for undergrad and then coming back here to the West for medical school.

Dr. Chan: So, when you say anatomy lab, what does that mean for people that aren't familiar with that?

Madison: Yeah.

Noah: Yeah. So for most people when they enter medical school, I think most medical schools do it. Sometime within your first year, usually within your first semester at The U, for the semester that you're here, they kind of do this intensive anatomy education to give you a baseline in anatomy. You're paired off into groups of four or five-ish, and everyone's assigned a cadaver body that they dissect together and they kind of work from the outside in and kind of go by organ system. And it's just a really great way to have hands-on learning and learn together as a group and get to know your classmates.

Madison: Yeah. Our cadaver, we had one of the few female cadavers. I don't know what it is, but it's mostly male bodies. Ours was female, and we named her Beatrice. I think Chaz D. maybe named her Beatrice, I don't know.

Dr. Chan: One of your fellow . . .

Madison: One of our fellow classmates who was in our group. We called her Miss B. and she was an awesome lady. I think we still talk about her all the time and kind of what a gift she gave us by donating her body. She had bright pink nail polish on, which is something I'll never forget. It was really cool to get to know her.

Dr. Chan: And now, did either of you have anatomy before, or was this kind of leading up to it? When I go out and talk to premedical students, there's this perception that anatomy is really different, it's really hard. Like what was your experience?

Noah: I had not had a lot of anatomy. The only thing I'd ever dissected was a cat and a shark in undergrad, which is pretty different. I don't know about Maddie.

Madison: Yeah. So Noah and I both went to schools that actually didn't offer anatomy. They had other pre-med requirements, but it wasn't something he got, which I know is very different from BYU and The U, where you do have these amazing anatomy courses. So I was nervous I was going to be behind, because people had TA'd these classes and stuff for years, but it ended up being fine. We weren't quite as good at the dissecting. Dr. Morgan, he goes around and he pins like different structures on different bodies, and the very first quiz, our body was wrapped up in plastic because there was nothing identifiable.

Dr. Chan: You did not have the most precise dissection.

Noah: We did not. We found out way after the fact, because we were still friendly with a couple of the TAs that helped us out, that secretly they would make fun of our body and our horrible dissection job after the fact when they'd all pow-wow.

Madison: Disclaimer, we're not going into surgery.

Dr. Chan: Good to know. I think that will be the first question our listeners will think of. So you meet in the gross anatomy lab. You're table mates. You're having this really cool experience together. Were you together right away, or did it take a while? Or were you the first couple in your class? How would you define that?

Noah: To put it on the record, we were the first couple in the class. Very proud of that.

Madison: It was a little scandalous, actually.

Noah: We got a lot of warnings from upper classmen, "Don't date your med school classmates."

Madison: There was actually a pact in our class of people who were like, "We're not going to date or have anything with anyone in your class," because it was supposed to be like a really bad idea.

Noah: Everyone said, "Don't date your classmates because then when you inevitably break up, it's going to be really awkward because it's not a very big class." I think the first thing that we kind of bonded over is we had a really similar sense of humor. I think we noticed right away that we were laughing a lot in anatomy lab.

Madison: The other groups hated us, I think. We were very loud.

Dr. Chan: It sounds like you're having a lot of fun.

Madison: And it's a very serious task. You're dissecting this body of someone who has passed away, and it's a gift in that sense, but we also kept it very light. And you deal with a lot of bodily fluids and a lot of bodily functions in anatomy lab, and we accidentally perfed our colon, which was not a great thing to happen. So, yeah, we had a lot of fun and would come in the weekends too to like study extra. We'd hang out then, and then we just started studying a lot together.

Dr. Chan: So, Noah, you talked about how upper classmates warned you there could be significant drawbacks for dating a classmate, but it sounds like there are significant strengths as well. What are some of those? It sounds like you studied together?

Noah: Yeah. I have to be honest. I can't think of a single negative part of our relationship that came from the fact that we were classmates. I struggle to really think of a single one. It's really nice to come home to someone or to hang out with someone, if you're not living together, who gets it. You can have really supportive significant others, husbands and wives who you can tell them what med school is like and they can do their best and they can say, "I'm here for you 100%."

But at the end of the day, it's really nice to have someone who's going through the same crazy experience and so they just get it. They know that you need to study. They know that your hours are going to be crazy. If you have a question about a topic that's really confusing to you, maybe it's something they're really good at. I think that was kind of one of the other reasons why Maddie and I started studying a lot together is I'm terrible at the things that she's really good at and I think vice versa is true in a lot of cases.

Dr. Chan: So you complement each other well.

Madison: We always joke that we would have gotten like a 280 on boards if we could take it together, which was not our real score at all.

Dr. Chan: That's a very novel strategy.

Madison: For those who haven't take boards yet, 280, I don't even know if you can get that score. Probably you can, someone can. But yeah, in terms of how the logistics, Noah was in a really long relationship in undergrad that ended right before medical school. So even though we were hanging out all the time, I didn't know if he was like damaged and hung up on this girl and . . .

Dr. Chan: Do they still use the term rebound, rebound relationship?

Madison: Yeah. I have a very awesome group of very protective girlfriends from undergrad, and they were very wary of this. One of my friends in particular, Kelly, I went and saw her for a couple days during the fall. And I was telling her about Noah, and she was like, "No, you're going to be his rebound. Don't go there. It's going to be really terrible." You can talk about this. I don't want to steal your thunder.

Noah: No, there's no thunder to steal. It's true. You were a rebound, but you were like a forever rebound.

Dr. Chan: Oh, I love it, the forever rebound.

Noah: Yeah. I think I definitely took my time as far as actually establishing it as an official relationship. I think we both knew that we liked spending time together and that we were a really good pair, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't turning her into a rebound. I wanted to make sure I was ready.

Madison: He went on a practice date with another girl. Tell him about that. It was a [inaudible 00:09:01] date?

Dr. Chan: Was this with another classmate?

Madison: No, it wasn't a classmate. It was just like this rando.

Noah: It was an OkCupid. She was a really nice girl, and I felt really bad for her because I really was kind of using her to see if I was over my ex, which was not super fair.

Dr. Chan: So, if you still had skills, could you still have conversation, if you could go on a date?

Noah: If for the entire date, I was thinking about my ex, then that would be . . . I hope she found someone. She was a nice girl.

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right. So let's jump back a few years. I'm excited to have you here today because I remember distinctly talking to both of you on the phone, welcoming you to our medical school, and I was beyond delighted that both of you chose to come here. I know both of you got into other schools. Looking back, obviously it was the right decision. You met each other and you're headed towards very wonderful fields, which we'll get into, but thoughts about coming to Salt Lake City. Madison, you used to live here, so coming back from the East Coast, Noah, you're from Idaho, coming here, what were your thoughts about your decision and from there?

Madison: Yeah. It was a really hard decision for a couple reasons. I grew up here, literally blocks away from The U's campus, and I went all the way to Philadelphia for undergrad. Most of my friends just stayed in that area, so moved to New York or down to D.C. or stayed in Philly. I kind of saw myself wanting to like go back out there. I had the option to, but when I kind of looked at . . . people define value as different things, right?

When I actually kind of sat down and looked at the financials with my parents, I was still in state at Utah and just kind of like the quality of education, I wasn't able to convince myself that paying for a private medical school when I had a really good in-state option was going to be the right choice. I didn't want to feel financially pressured to pursue something really lucrative, and then I went to second look date here and we heard from Dr. Morton and some of the other main educators here.

I felt confident that I was going to be able to succeed coming out of here, and I also saw where the fourth years are going, and they had really impressive institutions that they were going to and I didn't feel like just because I was going back to Utah, I wouldn't be able to get back to the East Coast or the West Coast for residency.

Noah: I don't have a lot to add. Mine was pretty similar. I went to undergrad in St. Louis, and so I was in a similar situation of going somewhere kind of out in the other areas of the country or whether to come back home. I remember when I came here for my interview day, it was just a really positive experience overall, both at the school, and then I also had some friends who were in the city, in the area.

Graduating from college is kind of a hard thing, especially when you go away, because the chances you end up in the same way as the people you've bonded with is really low. So I wanted to make sure that I was going to be in a place where I felt like I had a support system both within the school and outside of the school, and I wanted to go somewhere where I would feel comfortable. Salt Lake City just felt a lot like Boise to me. It kind of felt like home, but it was still away. It just ended up being the right fit.

I second everything Maddie said about you look at the match list and people are able to do incredible things out of this medical school. So I didn't really have any concerns about getting to where I wanted to go out of here.

Dr. Chan: All right. Well, let's talk about where you're headed. So when you started medical school, did you have an idea that you would choose the fields you ended up choosing? Help people understand how you came to the decision. Again, for people in the process of applying or maybe in the middle of medical school, it's very mysterious. Like how do doctors choose their fields? What were your journeys?

Noah: For me, I came into medical school and I . . .

Madison: I'm just like laughing, because what he wanted to do was like so not right for him, and I think he feels the same way about me.

Dr. Chan: What did you start with?

Noah: For some reason, I had it in my head that I was going to be a pediatric oncologist, that I was going to treat kid cancer and that that was what was what I was going to do for the rest of my life.

Madison: He wanted to be a chick magnet. Like curing little kids with cancer, just like . . .

Dr. Chan: I don't know if pediatric oncologists have higher rates of attracting members of the opposite sex.

Madison: I'm sure they do. We can do a study. That can be my residency study project.

Dr. Chan: You can do a double blind.

Noah: Yeah. I was so sure that that was what I wanted to do. I did the pre-clinical stuff. The cancer science just didn't really excite me the way that I thought it would, and then I hit clinical rotations. Peds was not a good fit.

Dr. Chan: What happened? What was your experience? Was this a rotation on pediatric oncology or just pediatrics in general?

Noah: Just pediatrics in general.

Madison: He didn't make it to oncology, just like nixed it at the kids level.

Noah: Stopped right there. Yeah, they say that especially when you hit your third year of medical school is when you start to get a feel for the different tribes of medicine, where a lot of the stereotypes you hear about the specialties, they came from somewhere, and it's because a lot of these specialties attract certain personality types. Most people, I think, pick their specialty . . . they have to like the science. They have to like the day to day, but more than anything, they have to like the people and you have to find "your people."

Peds just wasn't my people. I just felt like I wasn't connecting with them the way I wanted to and I wasn't connecting with my colleagues the way that I wanted to. So I kind of had a crisis, and I wasn't sure what to do. I thought I was going to be a surgeon during surgery. I thought I was going to be an orthopedic surgeon for a week. I ended up settling on anesthesiology.

Dr. Chan: Settling.

Noah: Settling because it's the best field and I fell in love with it. The people were great. It was a perfect fit for my personality type. It was all the science I wanted in a field. It was all the procedures I wanted in a field. I for sure was not settling, but that was the specialty that I found was best for me.

Dr. Chan: Were you able to do a rotation in anesthesiology during third year, or did you have to wait until the beginning of fourth year? Or how did that work out? Or just during surgery, were you just kind of more focused on what was going on near the head?

Madison: You kind of found it during OB first.

Noah: Yeah. I found it during OB. I remember peeking around the curtain and being like, "I wonder what that guy or gal is doing."

Madison: He looks way better than the guy pulling out the baby.

Noah: They're having fun back there. Then I kind of paid attention to them during surgery. And then at the end of third year, when I thought that anesthesiology might be a good fit for me, I did the rotation here, and it was kind of like a confirmatory.

Dr. Chan: So you found your tribe?

Noah: I did find my tribe.

Dr. Chan: Really positive experience?

Noah: Absolutely.

Dr. Chan: Wow. That's great. Cool. Madison?

Madison: Yeah. Oh, I was all over the place. Holy cow. I wrote my med school admissions essay -- this is something that all my college friends still give me like major crap for because they all read it -- about like wanting to be a primary care doctor in a small town, which is hilarious because I don't want to do primary care. Literally, being in a tiny town gives me so much anxiety I don't know where I came up with this idea.

So then I worked for an orthopedic surgeon for a year during my gap year, and I thought surgery was really cool, orthopedics was really cool. They're dealing with these healthy patients for the most part. It's pretty happy medicine. I came into med school thinking maybe I want to do that. I did a summer of orthopedic surgery research at Hospital for Special Surgery in New York and decided then that I thought it was a really cool field, but I didn't necessarily want to do the surgery part of it.

Dr. Chan: It was like standing in the OR for long periods of time?

Madison: Yeah. It was kind of like at that level of orthopedic surgery, you're so specialized that you're not even like . . . it's not even that you just take care of all joints, it's like you only take care of knees or you only take care of hands or you only take care of shoulders, and I wanted to be more of a generalist. So then I was like maybe general surgery would be a good fit, because you get to be a little bit more wider in your scope of kind of what you're dealing with in the body.

I went into third year -- Noah will tell you -- being like gung ho about surgery. I had found awesome surgical mentors here at Utah, shout out to Dr. Fenton and Dr. Penucci in plastics. They were incredible. I got some really great research opportunities with them. I actually hit my surgery rotation and I realized that even though I liked the research of surgery and I liked the idea of it, I was not happy in the OR. I was not thriving. I started to like try to avoid cases by like volunteering to do like busy work.

Dr. Chan: The floor work.

Madison: Yeah. There was a great intern who I worked with, who actually graduated from Utah as well, and I just saw how excited she was to go to the OR for like anything. It didn't matter the time of the day or how tired she was.

Dr. Chan: Is this Ryan?

Madison: Yeah, who also was a couples match.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Madison: I looked at her and I was amazed by her, and I also realized that I wasn't like her, which was a scary thing to realize. But then the backstory to all this is that, here at Utah, we have these groups called CMC groups and it's this kind of tribe that you get your first year. And these are all led by a physician. Dr. Chan leads one. My CMC leader, who kind of teaches you about how to do physical exams and things like that, was an ER doctor named Jerry Doyle. He and I always got along really well.

Dr. Chan: He loves it when students shadow him and come in for shifts.

Madison: Yeah. He was like so welcoming. So I think, little known to me, I was kind of being indoctrinated with emergency medicine from day one of medical school. I just didn't realize it. So after I did surgery, I sat down with Dr. Doyle at the hospital Starbucks at The U. I had a list. I listed . . . this is what I would suggest to do if people have questions about what to do, what specialty they're going to choose is I wrote down on a piece of paper everything I hate about medicine in general, like these are the activities I don't like. I don't like rounding. I don't like clinic. I don't like all these things.

And then on the other side, I wrote what I love. I love taking care of marginalized populations. I love doing a gazillion things at once. I like procedures. I love being part of a team. I don't like the OR. I found that out. I sat down and I just read this to him. He was like, "That was me when I was a third year." So I just started shadowing more and more in the ER, met Megan Fix, who's been an incredible mentor to me as well, as well as Katie Wells, who's now a PGY3 here. I can't say enough good things about the ER mentorship here.

Dr. Chan: It's a very strong program.

Madison: Yeah. It's an amazing program, amazing residents. I've never looked back. I was like, "This is home."

Dr. Chan: Emergency medicine.

Madison: Emergency medicine, all in. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: We've got emergency medicine and anesthesiology. When on your radar did you starting about the couples match? When did that kind of start entering your consciousness? Third year?

Madison: Before we were dating.

Dr. Chan: Before you were dating?

Madison: Just kidding.

Noah: That's a really good question. I think as soon as we started dating. If you start a relationship in medical school with someone else who's in medicine, I think you can't help but your first thoughts go to couples match.

Madison: Everyone in med school is like a planner. You plan years in advance for stuff.

Noah: So I think as soon as we realized that this was something serious, which was not super long after we started dating, we started thinking about it. As far as logistically when we started really thinking about how this is going to work and how we were going to do this, I would say probably third year is when things started to get really real as far as like, "If you do this and I do this, what is that going to look like?"

Even before we had officially settled on what we're doing, like the week that I wanted to do orthopedics or like, "Would you be okay coming with me wherever I match?"; Or when Maddie wanted to do plastics, it was like, "Would I be okay going wherever she wants to go?" because those are two super competitive specialties. So you start kind of thinking about what that would look like and if it's okay.

Madison: There were also like major logistics that we chose to do differently from other couples in our class I knew. Noah and I knew that we were both pretty competitive people with ourselves and with other people. So we made the decision not to share our Step scores with each other.

Dr. Chan: Oh, wow.

Madison: Yeah. That's like a big deal, right?

Dr. Chan: So the entire time you've been together, you don't know how each other did?

Madison: No.

Noah: I think that we could like guess a range just based on the conversations we've had, but I have no idea of what the number is.

Dr. Chan: I remember my classmates, and it was not just Step scores. It was just grades overall. Some were just I would say over-sharers. You just knew exactly what they do.

Madison: Yeah, and we never wanted to be those people. I know, from Noah's past relationship, they were both pre-med, and it was a little competitive between them. We wanted to stay out of that, and we wanted to be like only supportive. We would still study together and all that jazz. We just never wanted to open our envelope and have the feeling of like, "Well, if Maddie only would have scored five points higher . . ."

Dr. Chan: If she only studied for five more hours.

Madison: Which isn't even true, but it's just like you never want to have those lingering questions in your brain. So we sat down with Dr. Stevenson here, and we wrote them on a little sheet of paper and slid it across the table to him.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Madison: He literally lifted them up and he just was like, "We're good. You guys are okay." And we applied very broadly too.

Dr. Chan: Before we get to that, so creating your fourth year schedule, did you do away rotations together? Walk us through that.

Noah: It was a little different for both of us. Maddie, because she decided to do emergency, she's required to do a couple of away rotations. So we knew right off the bat that no matter what, she was going to have to go and do them. So we kind of thought this is a perfect opportunity for us to kind of get our foot in the door in some of the bigger cities that we were hoping to maybe match in.

Madison: Compared to a lot of classmates, we really didn't want to stay in the West. So we didn't apply anywhere around here. We didn't apply in most western states. We were really focused on California and the East Coast and a couple dots in between.

Dr. Chan: Did you interview here?

Madison: We applied here and everything. But we were pretty up front with our departments too about wanting to move away.

Dr. Chan: I think it's always a good move to interview with your home institution.

Madison: Oh, yeah. I mean it's a slap in the face if you don't, and they're obviously the people who helped you find your specialty. We also applied and did our away rotations. I did one in New York City and one in Los Angeles, and Noah also did one in Los Angeles.

Noah: Yeah. It was actually just kind of by luck. I got my third choice of date range for my away rotation in Los Angeles, and Maddie got maybe her second choice. I don't think it was her first choice. But either way, just as a fluke, they ended up overlapping perfectly. So we were able to actually go out to Los Angeles and do our away rotations together and survived a real estate scam and a totaled car.

Madison: It was a low point.

Dr. Chan: Real estate scam, did you have like an Airbnb disaster?

Madison: Well, Noah can talk about this.

Noah: I'm going to put this all on myself because it was 100% my fault. It was a situation where it was like a Craigslist thing.

Dr. Chan: I didn't think your generation used Craigslist anymore.

Madison: We've had good luck. I found my housing for New York via Craigslist, and we've done it in the past when we did research and have had really good luck, except for this time.

Noah: I went to L.A. during the summer between first and second year to do research, and I did it exactly the same. It all worked out great. It was going the same way this time. It turned into a thing where we were leaving to drive out there and I had been trying to contact this guy just like, "Hey, we're going out there. Just wanted to make sure you're going to be there."

Madison: Driving 11 hours.

Noah: Radio silence the day before we were leaving. I was like, "That's kind of weird, but what we can we do now?"

We stopped over in Vegas overnight, and we woke up the next morning, the day we were supposed to meet him and move in and he goes, "I was waiting for you all day yesterday, and it's now going to cost you $700 more and you can't move in for another week." I just remember looking at Maddie and being like, "Ruh-roh." So we got to the apartment complex. We showed this guy's picture around. No one had ever seen him before.

Madison: It was bad.

Dr. Chan: You have these Utah license plates. People think you're like these little country bumpkins.

Madison: Yeah. I was literally scheduled to start the next day in the ER, and we were homeless in Los Angeles.

Dr. Chan: Well, you had a car.

Madison: We did. We had two cars at this point.

Noah: We booked a few days at the Gardena Terrace Inn, #DontStayThere.

Madison: I like went on this app on my phone, it's like Hotels Tonight. It's actually a great thing. You should definitely download it for interview season. But I found like the cheapest one closest to the county hospital I was working at. It was like $70 a night. I was like, "That's mostly in the budget." It was really bad.

Dr. Chan: Is this big county?

Madison: This is Harbor.

Dr. Chan: Harbor County.

Madison: Noah slept with this like hunting knife under his pillow.

Noah: My inner-Idahoan came out.

Madison: It was really not great. I got up in the morning and put on my scrubs and went to work. We stayed there for three nights.

Noah: I will say to our credit, despite all of this, we were never really at each other's throats. We got frustrated with the situation, but I don't think we ever took it out on each other. To this day every once in a while, Maddie will be like, "Hey, Noah, it would be really nice to have that $1,000 back." I'll pay her back for it eventually.

Dr. Chan: You sent this individual that you never saw again $1,000?

Madison: $2,000.

Noah: Yeah. That's kind of the point of contention. We paid upfront, which was a bad choice.

Dr. Chan: Well, I won't dwell on that because both of your faces are . . .

Madison: Sad.

Dr. Chan: It sounds like, and I've gathered this from talking to other people who went through the couples match, you targeted large cities with multiple programs, so just in case one of you matched in one program, there may be a neighboring institution.

Madison: Yeah. Given what we're looking for, if anyone's familiar with emergency medicine, emergency medicine is a little different than other specialties in that you have . . . all specialties have community, county, and academic programs. Those are three different flavors of style. The interesting thing about EM is that you have hybrid programs that are county and academic, which is kind of what I was interested in.

Then you also have really, really amazing just straight county or straight academic or straight community programs. So places that might not be as "desirable" for specialties like anesthesia are actually really awesome training experiences for emergency medicine just given that you want to be in a place that has a lot of acuity and a lot of diversity . . .

Dr. Chan: A lot of diversity in patient conditions, illnesses, trauma . . .

Madison: Socioeconomic status, all of the above. You also want to be in a place where you don't necessarily have tons of other services trying to necessarily . . . I don't want to say hone in because they're always valuable and you can always learn a lot from them, but that you are able to kind of like direct your learning when opportunities arise in the ER for that learning. So, basically, getting back to the point, we were looking for places with multiple programs, that would be both beneficial to what we were looking for in a residency program, which was hard.

Noah: I don't have a whole lot to add. But it was kind of interesting when we were trying to build our list of places to apply to and interview at, because the programs for anesthesia that are maybe less desirable or ones that are not super competitive are the ones that Maddie was super excited, and then a lot of times kind of like the bigger, powerhouse academic programs that tend, not always, but tend to be stronger for anesthesiology were the programs that oftentimes don't have a great emergency reputation.

Dr. Chan: Interesting.

Noah: So we were looking at kind of like opposite things. In a lot of ways, that was nice because it gave us a lot of permutations of programs within bigger cities.

Dr. Chan: Would you only interview at a program where the other person was also in there to interview? Or did you just kind of if you got an interview in New York or Philadelphia or Boston, you'd just immediately interview there? What was your strategy?

Noah: So it kind of gets into playing the game of the couples match. You kind of have to play the game for residency application in general, but especially in the couples match it's all about communication. So whenever one of us would get an interview offer at an institution, they would immediately send an email to the department saying, "My partner is Noah, and he's applying in anesthesiology. He hasn't heard back yet."

Madison: And he loves your program, most important part.

Dr. Chan: Emoji smiley face.

Noah: Then there are also sometimes where the other person would send out an email to all the programs within the city that they had applied to that the other person had been offered an interview saying, "My partner is interviewing in the city. I haven't heard back from you and I'm interested." Just really any concrete excuse to reach out to program directors and say, "I'm interested in your program."

Dr. Chan: Do you feel that was successful? Did the programs respond to that?

Madison: Oh, yeah.

Noah: Hugely successful.

Madison: I can only think of a couple ones where it didn't work.

Noah: Like 80% to 90% of the time it was successful.

Dr. Chan: So there was definitely, you feel, communication between the anesthesiology department and the ER department about what was going on?

Madison: Yeah. I think it was happening, for sure. I also think that those two departments are departments that play really well together. EM residents across the country rotate on anesthesia for airways, and anesthesia rotates in the emergency room at least for a couple months during residency. So they're in contact, and I think that was really helpful. The other thing that was good was to play up any and all connection to the area, to the school, to anything.

Noah and I were both successful in getting interviews at our alma maters and getting each other interviews at our alma maters, which was really fun. I have family in the Midwest. I really tried to play that up to help get interviews in Chicago. Noah has long lost relatives in New York City. He played that up. So just anything that you can say to say, "Yes, I'm coming from University of Utah. It's a little bit of a medically isolated area in that we're the only game in town, but please, please, please look at me. I'm willing to . . ."

Dr. Chan: Move to the East Coast.

Madison: Yeah, move to the East Coast, move the West Coast, move wherever.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. So leading up to your match list, was it a negotiation between the two of you, or did both of you just kind of know independently, kind of came to the same conclusion? How did that work?

Noah: So I think what we ended up doing is we both built our own independent rank lists as we were going on interviews, but we were talking to each other all along the way.

Madison: Like after every interview we called each other.

Noah: It wasn't like a big secret, but we were still trying to rank them semi-independently. And then when all was said and done . . . maybe not when it was all done, but towards the end of interview season, we started to kind of sit down and get an idea of what our picture would look like as far as our rank lists. I think that our main goal was to find a few programs that we both liked enough that they could be our top programs. We kind of addressed those first, and we said, "We would both be happy with these. These are both strong training programs for us"

Then we kind of worked our way down to ones where we had to make some compromises where either I liked a program and it just wasn't a good fit for Maddie or vice versa and really tried hard to make it as fair as we could, where if we did one that was unfair to me, we did another one that was unfair to Maddie and just built our rank lists in a way that felt fair, so that not one person was getting everything they wanted and the other person not getting anything they wanted.

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. All right. So you submitted your match lists. What was it like between that day and then match day? That's a month, right?

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: What were you going through? What were you thinking?

Madison: I started on the ICU.

Dr. Chan: Kind of second thoughts?

Madison: So it was pretty . . . I don't know. I was kept really busy, so I think that definitely helped. We kept it a secret from everyone, what our official ranking was, which was really hard because I tell my mom everything and she was actually really mad.

Dr. Chan: Hello, Madison's mom. Hope you're listening to this.

Madison: We also made . . . so on the interview trail, I knew that this was probably the most we'd ever be traveling in such a short amount of time probably in our entire lives. So Noah and I, we took these little like felt letter boards around with us to every single -- they're like just really small, like a placard size -- to every interview and we made a different sign for that location. And then we had my friend, who works at BuzzFeed Video, she turned it into a YouTube video that was like 15 minutes long. So that was really fun to kind of just build up the excitement and remember. We both sat down and watched it when she sent it to us, and we were like, "I can't believe we made it."

Noah: We're BuzzFeed celebrities.

Madison: Not quite.

Dr. Chan: Can we publish that? Can we do a link?

Madison: Yeah, sure.

Dr. Chan: All right. Well, I'll get that afterwards, yeah.

Madison: We were just like . . . watching it, I was just like, "I can't believe that we did that many interviews." I did 20 interviews.

Dr. Chan: Twenty, wow.

Madison: Noah did 25, 26.

Noah: Twenty-five.

Madison: Twenty-five.

Dr. Chan: That's a lot.

Madison: It was a lot.

Dr. Chan: How much did you budget? What does that look like?

Madison: With or without the L.A. money wheel? No, I'm kidding.

Dr. Chan: Using Craigslist or not using Craigslist.

Madison: Sallie Mae does residency relocation loans. Because we were doing double the interviews, we probably took out double what our single application classmates took out. So I took out $10,000 to pay, and that's probably . . . I don't think I could have done it cheaper. I really don't. I surfed on so many couches and ate so many turkey cheese roll-ups, I don't know if I could have done it much less expensive.

Noah: Mine was about the same. As we were going through the process after the match lists were submitted and we were just kind of looking back on everything that happened, we were like, "Man, where did all of that money go?"

Madison: Oh my gosh, this was a good story.

Noah: It goes to flights. People would guess that flights are just expensive. But when we added up between the two of us Lyft and Uber, we took 298 ride shares.

Madison: No, no, 198.

Noah: Wasn't it 200?

Madison: No, it was 198. That's still a lot though.

Dr. Chan: That's still a lot.

Madison: 198, like that's insane.

Noah: We were like, oh, that's where all our money went.

Madison: At the time, we're like, "It's really cheap. It's only $8 here, $9 here," and then it adds up so fast.

Dr. Chan: Aside from airfare, Uber and Lyft were your biggest expenses.

Madison: Uber and Lyft. There's this credit card now apparently that you can apply that gives you like 4% back on Uber and Lyft. You should consider getting that for your interview season. This is not a sponsored post, but yeah.

Dr. Chan: I'll talk to the Dean's Office. So match day, the night before match, slept like a baby, nervous?

Madison: I slept great.

Noah: Yeah, I think we actually both slept. Yeah, we slept fine.

Madison: Noah was one of our class presidents. So he was like really busy with the actual like logistics stuff of setting up for match day.

Noah: Which was really nice. It also kept me distracted. I had to get there really early and just set things up and do the decorations and stuff, which really helped to just kind of dampen the anxiety a little bit.

Madison: I think Monday was actually a bigger deal for us, because anesthesia does . . . you can either do a one plus three program, where you might be separated for your intern year, or you can do an all-inclusive four-year program. So we had three and four-year programs ranked, so there was a small possibility that he would either be separated for our first year in a different area, or he would not match for that first year. So Monday we found out that he was fully matched.

Dr. Chan: That gave you a hint or no?

Madison: No, it didn't. It meant that he didn't have to scramble somewhere.

Noah: Yeah, I would agree with that. Monday was probably the most anxiety provoking, because I had this nightmare that I would have to scramble for my preliminary year position or whatever. So once we knew that we had both fully matched, we knew that it was super unlikely that we had gone really far down our list, and we knew that . . . I don't know what I'm saying.

Madison: That's okay.

Noah: We knew that we had been fully matched.

Dr. Chan: You'd be together. You wouldn't be separate.

Noah: We wouldn't be separate for probably more than a year was what we knew from that.

Dr. Chan: When you're setting up match day, you see the envelopes on the table, no temptation. Isn't there someone guarding them?

Noah: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: You were there early enough, though.

Noah: I was. Yeah, I had to watch them like put them in each of the individual things.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, alphabetical.

Noah: It was definitely nerve-wracking. I didn't really want to get tackled by student affairs, personnel, and get taken out on match day, spend it in the hospital and find out later where I'd matched.

Dr. Chan: So your families were both there?

Madison: Yeah. It was actually the first meeting of the parents.

Dr. Chan: Really?

Madison: Yes.

Noah: As if the anxiety wasn't high enough.

Dr. Chan: Did you do like a dinner the night before?

Madison: The night after match day we did.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So the parents met for the first time?

Noah: They did, yeah. Everything went well. Everyone got along great.

Madison: Then my little sister was there, and then Noah's best friend was there.

Dr. Chan: All right. So they have all those little speeches. They're kind of delaying it, delaying it. They cut the little red ribbon. Was there a red ribbon this year? I couldn't tell, I was near the back.

Noah: I think so.

Dr. Chan: They cut the red ribbon. You go up there and get your envelopes. What happens next?

Madison: I refused to open my envelope.

Noah: Oh my god, she was driving me crazy.

Madison: I like got it and I was like . . . I didn't know this, but someone was filming it unbeknownst to be and they like put it on the University of Utah total Instagram page, and there's just me doing this nervous dance like I have to pee being like, "I can't open it. I can't open it."

Noah: It took Maddie like three minutes to open her envelope. I was going nuts.

Madison: Some really mean person commented, "Has she ever opened an envelope before?"

Noah: That is the sane question.

Dr. Chan: Was that person Noah?

Madison: No, it wasn't. It was some other meanie.

Dr. Chan: Did you open your envelope before Madison?

Madison: He did.

Dr. Chan: So it was not a simultaneous event.

Noah: Thank god you were matched with an anesthesiologist where you have to be patient.

Madison: I eventually opened it, and we did look at it at the same time, but it just took me a little extra time.

Dr. Chan: So where are you going, and how does it feel?

Noah: We both matched at the same hospital.

Madison: In the best city in the entire world.

Noah: We're going to NYU in Manhattan.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Fantastic. So I assume that was near the top?

Madison: Yeah.

Noah: Absolutely.

Madison: It has been on my bucket list my entire life to live in New York City.

Dr. Chan: New York City, yes. Awesome.

Noah: NYU was actually my very first anesthesia interview of the entire season. I went there, and I absolutely loved it. I remember I called Maddie after and I said, "I love everything about it. This is exactly what I want."

Dr. Chan: Let's talk about why did you like NYU? What attracted you to their program?

Noah: It was the people. It all comes down to the people. Obviously, it's an incredible medical institution with a great reputation, and even within the anesthesiology world NYU has a great reputation as well. But, for me, it came down to the people. I didn't appreciate it as much until I got further into the interview season, but you can tell so much about a program by how many residents you see in the hallways who are smiling.

So as I went on, I started to keep like a mental tally of how many residents I saw smiling during my interview day, because it's a really good indication of when people aren't really focused and kind of in the intense part of their work day, are they happy? Do they like being around the people that they're around? I'm pretty sure I told Maddie this on the phone after I left NYU. Everyone I saw was smiling. Everyone was happy. People seemed like they had a great quality of life.

Madison: The attending-resident relationship was you said . . . I remember you telling me it was a really good one there.

Noah: Yeah. The program leadership could not have been warmer. My interviews were very warm. It was very casual, and they wanted to get to know me. I was . . .

Madison: In New York, you think of it's more fast-paced, of course, but it's also East Coasters are a little different.

Noah: I also had these kind of talking points locked and loaded, where I would have to convince them about why I would be willing to go to New York, and I was ready to kind of sell that to them. I never really had to. Everyone was very open to it, and they said this was a great time to try something new and exciting. It was just a great . . . I feel like my entire interview process I was always comparing programs back to NYU.

Dr. Chan: Wow. Cool. Madison, why did you like NYU? Is it a three or four-year program?

Madison: Oh my gosh. It's a four-year program.

Dr. Chan: ER is kind of weird. It's like the only field I know that there's not really a [inaudible 00:43:31].

Madison: Yes. That really comes down to how much elective time you get. So NYU is a four-year program, which I actually wanted a four-year program because Noah's program would be four regardless. NYU Bellevue, what drew me to it was the history. I'm someone who has always believed that places hold meaning. That's why I picked the college I did. The history of Bellevue Hospital, it's the oldest public hospital in the United States.

There's actually a book that was recently published that I read about it before I matched or anything, but the history of Bellevue taking care of the most marginalized members of society in the most diverse city is just incredible. They were on the forefront of the AIDS crisis. They took care of immigrants, all the way to when Hurricane Sandy hit, how staff was carrying patients down in stretchers to evacuate them. I'm just so honored to now hopefully be starting my journey as an MD at such a storied hospital that everyone is so proud of the mission and the service to New York City.

Dr. Chan: The history and the legacy.

Madison: Yeah. So when I was talking about the programs before, like the academic and county hybrids, so at NYU, you get Bellevue, which is a true county program, but you also get Tisch, which is a private NYU hospital. So you get two very different populations there. Tisch gets more of the very complicated transplant cancer patients. Then Bellevue you get more of your bread and butter, emergency medicine, trauma. It's the only level one trauma center in Lower Manhattan.

I interviewed actually the day after the New York City subway bombing, and we toured the ICU, and there were people marching through the ICU with assault rifles, because the person who committed it as well as the victims went to Bellevue. It's a crazy, exciting place to be. It's where the Ebola patient went. So I'm excited for what's coming. It's going to be a cool place to train. Noah will get to be there too. We'll actually get to rotate on each other's services because we'll be at the same hospital.

Dr. Chan: That's fantastic.

Madison: Let the battle of the airways begin.

Dr. Chan: Battle of the airways. Who can intubate the best?

Madison: We intubate under worse conditions, I feel like. You do it more, though.

Dr. Chan: Tale as old as time, anesthesiology versus ER when it comes to intubation.

Madison: I still have a lot of friends there, which will be really fun to get to reconnect with them.

Noah: My dad actually grew up in New York, and he lived in New York for a long time. Even though he might not admit it, I think that somewhere deep down inside of him there's still that inner New Yorker that's transplanted in Idaho who's a little bit proud to have someone temporarily going back to the big city.

Dr. Chan: That's fantastic.

Madison: So many bagels. We're so excited.

Dr. Chan: Great restaurants. That's what I tell people. I've never lived in New York. I've visited New York a few times. I used to live on the East Coast. I lived in Washington, D.C. The thing about New York City that I love, if you want sushi on top of pizza at 2:00 in the morning, you can find someplace like that. Literally, the city never sleeps. There's just so much fun stuff to do.

Madison: If you're in a specialty that's 24 hours a day, what better place to be than a city that never shuts down?

Dr. Chan: Fantastic. Well, I'm so excited for both of you. We have graduation coming up in a few short weeks, and then you're off for your medical training. I can't believe you're going to be full-fledged MDs and practicing medicine.

Madison: They sent the offer letter. We have to have the letter that says like, yes, you're going to be a resident physician, this is your salary in order to show that to landlords to qualify for housing. And they sent me my letter and it said, "Madison Hunt, MD," and I was like, "Who's that person?"

Dr. Chan: It's so official looking.

Madison: I'm going to be looking over my shoulder for the next four years.

Noah: I don't know how long it's going to take before we actually feel like we've earned the MD title.

Madison: Never.

Noah: I think it's not going to be soon.

Dr. Chan: Well, I'm excited for you guys.

Madison: Thank you so much.

Dr. Chan: I'm so glad you came here to Utah. I'm so glad you guys found each other. I'm glad you found a field that you're passionate about. It's very obvious. I'm excited for your future patients because you guys are going to be great doctors.

Madison: Oh, thank you, Dr. Chan.

Noah: Thank you. That's nice to say.

Dr. Chan: We'll talk later.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Talking Admissions and Med Student Life with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school, a production of The Scope Health Sciences Radio online at thescoperadio.com.