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Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today, "The Specialists" with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Interviewer: Fatty liver disease affects more than 80 million Americans, and many of them don't even know they have it. Dr. Tom Miller, why does fatty liver disease concern you as a doctor?

Dr. Miller: Well, fatty liver disease is becoming the most common chronic liver disease in the industrialized Western world, and especially in the United States. And it used to be, we had viral hepatitis as a cause of liver disease and a major cause of transplantation, which it still is, but very shortly the major reason for liver transplantation due to liver failure is going to be fatty liver.

Interviewer: And not necessarily caused by alcohol. I always thought it was, you know, people that drank a lot tend to get fatty liver disease.

Dr. Miller: Well, they get liver disease. It's not necessarily fatty liver disease as you would think about it, and it was and still continues to be a cause of liver disease, but because of our lifestyle and the fact that 30% of the people living in the United States have obesity, fatty liver disease is now the most common cause of chronic liver disease.

Interviewer: Yeah, 80 million Americans, that's quite a . . . that's almost an epidemic, isn't it? Like, if 80 million Americans had any other sort of disease, we would be freaking out.

Dr. Miller: Right. I think the term might be just a little bit . . . The categorization of it is a little bit misleading because not everyone with fatty liver disease goes on to develop liver failure. In fact, a small percentage of those people end up with liver failure, but given the large number of people with fatty liver disease, a significant number of Americans will end up with end-stage liver disease.

Interviewer: And what exactly is going on? So I think the name implies that there's some fat, maybe excess fat deposits in the liver, but why is that bad?

Dr. Miller: Fat is a cause, a driver of inflammation, and we don't exactly know why, but when people gain weight, some of that weight is stored centrally and also stored between the cells in the liver. So if you look at a person's tissue from the liver, you will see if they have fatty liver, which is called non-alcoholic fatty liver. You'll see fat stores or globules in between the cells. For whatever reason, this causes inflammation, and inflammation predisposes to damage, fibrosis, and destruction of the active cells in the liver which help us cleanse our body of toxins.

Interviewer: And you're talking about scarring.

Dr. Miller: I'm talking about scarring.

Interviewer: That's why I used those words, yeah.

Dr. Miller: Fibrosis leads to scarring.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Miller: Now, again, most people with fatty liver don't end up with inflammation, and we don't exactly understand why some people have problems with inflammation related to their fatty liver versus those who don't. And not everyone who has inflammation in the liver goes on to develop cirrhosis.

Interviewer: But it's certainly a path you don't want to go down and find those things out.

Dr. Miller: No, definitely not, and it can be treated.

Interviewer: All right. So, when a patient comes into your office, can you look at them and tell if they have the bad kind of fatty liver disease that could lead to transplant or death?

Dr. Miller: I think the way that we think about it now, I believe the way we think about it now is if you're obese, that is you have a body mass index greater than 30, your chances are pretty high of having non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. So, basically, the same thing that we've talked about on these shows in the past, right diet, right weight, right exercise is your best treatment to prevent it. This is a problem with industrialized countries having too much food and the wrong kinds of food available.

Interviewer: Yeah. And once that scarring happens, there's no cure for it. It eventually will lead to liver failure.

Dr. Miller: Once you start down a path of scarring, your chances of ending up with end-stage liver disease and needing a transplant are pretty high. Not only that, you are predisposed, with that scarring, to liver cancer.

Interviewer: And if you start to lose some weight, I understand it doesn't take, necessarily, a lot of weight reduction to reduce the number of fat cells in the liver and kind of start backing that thing up if scarring hasn't occurred.

Dr. Miller: Right. I think one, again, wants to head for a normal BMI, which is between 18.5 and 25.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Miller: And that's not easy. I mean, I tell you that that's the treatment, but attaining that treatment for everybody is difficult because we don't have a medication for weight loss that works, and basically it's a lifestyle adjustment, which is hard for people given the abundance of food.

Interviewer: And there are tests that you can do to determine, for sure, if there are.

Dr. Miller: There are. So we basically start looking at the issue of inflammation in people who we think might have fatty liver disease by looking at the enzymes that the liver produces on a blood test. If these are elevated, there are a number of causes, but eventually, if you can rule out sort of the medical, the drug-associated causes and other causes, that is if they're not drinking, you can think that this is probably related to a non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. And if you really want to know damage to the liver, you're going to have to do a liver biopsy. There's another test now that's non-invasive, but liver biopsy is still the gold standard.

Interviewer: And we haven't really hit on this, but it often doesn't have symptoms.

Dr. Miller: The vast majority of people with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease are not symptomatic.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Dr. Miller: And, in fact, you're only symptomatic towards the end . . .

Interviewer: When it's kind of too late.

Dr. Miller: . . . with this disease when you have fibrosis and scarring or liver cancer. So, again, we want to look at obesity and lifestyle as a response to prevent this.

Interviewer: So get that body mass index back into a reasonable area?

Dr. Miller: Well, it's the same thing we talk about for all of the things that we now kind of associate with the Western world diet, which is high blood pressure, heart disease, metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes. They're all in a basket, including this non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. And, again, the treatment is at our hand, but it's not easy to achieve.

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Interviewer: You have somebody in your life who is entering the alcohol recovery process or is in recovery and you want to be supportive but some of the things you say might actually be harmful.

Announcer: Health information from expects, supported by research. From University of Utah Health, this is TheScopeRadio.com.

Interviewer: We're talking with Dr. Jason Hunziker, psychiatrist at the University of Utah. Dr. Hunziker, people who are recovering from alcohol addiction, it's a really hard process and they need all the support they can get.

Dr. Hunziker: The choice to go into recovery is a big deal for everyone who does it. It's a very difficult process and it does take a lot of support not only internally but from people in the environment and from systems that help people enter the recovery process. We do have to be careful however what we say to people as they are getting ready to enter that process and as they are in that process so that we can motivate them to stay sober and make this big change in their life.

Some of the things I recommend that we don't say are things like, "Hey you can have just one, and it's not going to hurt anything." That clearly is not going to be helpful to somebody who is telling you that their life has been destroyed by alcohol. That's sets you up for failure in your process and in your program and so that's something that should be avoided.

Interviewer: So what are some other things that people say sometimes that you think are supportive but really aren't?

Dr. Hunziker: Somebody is in the program and you think you're being supportive by visiting them and then you say, "You know I'm glad you're doing this right now. It's a good time for you to do this but one day you're going to be able to drink again."

Interviewer: Really? They say that?

Dr. Hunziker: Yes, and again that is not something that is helpful at all to maintain the sobriety that they're looking for. When you stop, you still have the addiction. You just choose now not to use. And I use the word choose pretty lightly because if it was that easy to quit, everybody would just quit. So they make the decision to everyday get up in the morning and realize that they're not going to use and then go through that day not using even though they still have some cravings, they still have some desires and they still fight that impulse to go get some alcohol.

Interviewer: Okay, what are some other things that people might say?

Dr. Hunziker: Other things people say when they don't realize you don't realize you're an alcoholic at all they'll say, "Wait a minute. I see you go to work every day. You have a job. You're still making money. How can you be an alcoholic?" They think that just because you can function that you're not an alcoholic. But that still does not mean that this does not interfere with other aspects of your life.

Some people will say when you've been in the process for a long time and you've been going to your recovery meetings and you haven't had a drink they'll say, "Aren't you done yet? I mean, you've been doing this for years, shouldn't you be cured already?" There's no cure. I mean the cure is to not drink and the only way to not drink is to get positive support and to be actively making sure that doesn't happen.

Interviewer: Okay, any other things that people might say they think are supportive to a recovering alcoholic but might not really be that supportive?

Dr. Hunziker: Well I think sometimes people want to down play or minimize the alcoholism in the other person's life and so they will say things like, "Well I eat food every day, that doesn't make me addict so how could you be an addict?"

Interviewer: Because those two things are so comparable.

Dr. Hunziker: Exactly, exactly. So clearly our words are very important when somebody has made the decision to go into recovery and we need to choose those words carefully. We don't shy away from having conversations but I don't think we want to interfere and actively seek out information about the alcoholism. If somebody wants to give it to us, great. Let's listen, let's be supportive but if you start asking a lot questions people feel like you're being intrusive and then when you're intrusive it sets them up for failure.

Interviewer: So what are the words and the conversations that you can say to recovering or you should be saying to a recovering alcoholic?

Dr. Hunziker: It's not so much what you say all the time but some of the things that you do. Be available so if they call you in the middle of the night you don't say, "Oh, you're just drunk again" or " Oh, here it goes again." You're supportive, you're available, and you're encouraging them to use you as a support system so they don't go drink. Other things, you stay positive. Keep giving them encouragement all the time because it is a difficult process.

I mean you could imagine if you had to give up something you really enjoyed doing even if you didn't really think it was causing you that much problems. So you want to make sure that you're positive and they get encouraged by you so they will continue to fight the addiction.

Interviewer: So say you know someone who is thinking, who is considering the recovery process, what can you say to them to kind of motivate them to enter it?

Dr. Hunziker: You know I think normally what you want to do is have them think about how this helps them or doesn't help them. If you can say to them, "Okay, let's make a list of how alcohol helps you in your life, and then let's make a list of how alcohol hurts your."

Interviewer: Doesn't help you in your life.

Dr. Hunziker: Exactly, exactly.

Interviewer: Pros and cons.

Dr. Hunziker: And then people can look at that and then you can provide motivation based on the positive feature say, "Look what you can... You want these, you want that, you want this. The only way to get that is to be sober and if you can be sober, good things are going to come."

Interviewer: So any final thoughts that you have about recovering alcoholics, what you should and shouldn't be saying?

Dr. Hunziker: The only thought I have is that if somebody comes to you and says, "I'm contemplating stopping my drug use or my alcohol use." Please refer them to somebody who has a knowledge of recovery, has a knowledge of treatment, their primary care doctor, Alcoholics Anonymous, Al-Anon, somewhere that they can get that process moved from contemplation to full active recovery.

Announcer: Have a question about a medical procedure? Want to learn more about a health condition? With over 2,000 interviews with our physicians and specialists, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll find what you want to know. Check it out at TheScopeRadio.com.

updated: March 12, 2019
originally published: November 5, 2014