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Interviewer: You've tried the sprays and the pills for your seasonal allergies, but they just don't seem to work. So what are the next steps to finding allergy relief?

Dr. Gretchen Mae Oakley is a nose and sinus expert at U of U Health. She's really good with allergies too. So in our previous conversation with Dr. Oakley, we talked about managing those symptoms with prescription and over-the-counter sprays and other medications. If you haven't listened to that podcast, be sure to check that out first. But Dr. Oakley, if those sprays and pills aren't working, what are the next steps that you would take with a patient?

Dr. Oakley: The main next step that we generally talk about with patients is allergy testing, and that is identifying what the patient is specifically allergic to or the things, you know, they're specifically allergic to. And the goal behind doing that allergy testing and the reason we don't necessarily do that upfront is because the main goal is kind of a step towards the immunotherapy option. And this is a treatment for allergies that can be very effective for a lot of patients who, you know, are still struggling after medical therapy. And the idea behind it is basically desensitizing your immune system to the allergies, so it's less reactive to that allergen or those allergens.

Interviewer: And it seems like most people I talked to that have allergies, they'll be like, "Oh, I need to go get my allergies tested." In their mind, it's the first thing that you do. Do you find that to be common?

Dr. Oakley: I do. Yeah. I get that question actually a lot, "Should I be allergy tested?" And it's certainly satisfies our curiosity in many cases of, you know, what we're allergic to, but it doesn't necessarily change the treatment if we haven't done those medical management steps yet, because if, you know, whether you're allergic to this specific pollen or that specific, you know, weed, or this tree, or that grass, you're still going to be using those as, you know, your earlier steps. You're still going to be using, you know, those nasal steroids sprays first or the oral antihistamines first and the antihistamine sprays first, because that has, you know, a broader effect, you know, on all of those.

So that's what we generally don't do that upfront, because it doesn't necessarily change our first couple steps and, you know, the treatment. But it does affect, you know, our later steps. If we're thinking of immunotherapy, we need to know what we're specifically treating for that to work. And so that's kind of where it comes in and the point behind the testing, you know, at that stage generally.

Interviewer: Yeah, so your patients that you take at that point to the testing stage, I'd imagine they're just not finding any sort of relief from the first steps, or their allergies are just so terrible. I mean, what kind of patient then makes it to the testing stage usually? You're able to . . . I would imagine the medical things that you do first, the sprays and the pills take care of a lot of what patients experience.

Dr. Oakley: Yeah. I would say the patients that generally get to that next stage are those that are getting either really severe or really bothersome seasonal allergies that are refractory to the medical therapy. And they just don't want to, you know, suffer every summer, all summer or every spring, all spring. Those are good candidates for immunotherapy. They're getting breakthrough symptoms despite those, you know, medical treatments.

Other patients will have year-long allergies because they may be allergic to, you know, dust mite, and it's all around them. It's in their house. And, you know, there are things they can do, like, you know, try cleaning their house really well. However, we've not seen that those things will fix the problem in a noticeable way. They'll still get their symptoms. And so, you know, those patients are suffering all year, and, you know, there are immunotherapies that can help with those perennial allergies.

An additional option, for example, would be a patient who has a cat that they're allergic to, but they're very, you know, emotionally connected to their cat. It would be distressing for them to get rid of their cat, or it's a partner's cat and, you know, they can't necessarily avoid it. It's not so easy to always get rid of a pet. So that'd be another case where immunotherapy may, you know, play a good role for that patient.

Interviewer: When you get to that point, you do some of the testing, and then after you get the results, how do you proceed to the immunotherapy and how does that work?

Dr. Oakley: So generally, we're identifying the allergies that are causing, you know, the sensitivities that the patients have based on how they respond to, for example, skin prick testing, which would be the most commonly used allergy testing upfront. It can be done, you know, in the office. Patients are tested for multiple allergies at once usually on their arm. You're using a grid system to see what skin responses are the most significant to determine what they're, you know, most allergic to. And those are the allergies that you target, you know, their worst reactions with the immunotherapy. And the idea behind the immunotherapy is giving them very small but ramping up doses of that thing that they're allergic to, to just gradually desensitize the immune system to it.

Interviewer: I remember getting those as a kid. I've had more success with the first line of defense in later life, with some of the new medications that came out, I don't know, probably 20 years ago now, but I say new. So like my experience was the immunotherapy didn't really help me. Do a lot of people experience success with it?

Dr. Oakley: It's generally considered to be 80% to 90% effective. But, you know, it's not 100% effective, as you said. So some people don't get that response. It's generally very effective, but it is a commitment. It's very much a time commitment. You know, it's a three to five-year treatment where patients are coming in anywhere from a weekly to a . . . or I should say anywhere from a twice weekly to a monthly basis for injections, you know, to get that benefit.

Interviewer: Yeah. I remember it was twice a week I'd go in and get those allergy shots. So if immunotherapy doesn't work then, then it sounds like the last option is surgery, and I didn't even know there were surgical methods for allergies. Talk about that.

Dr. Oakley: Well, I should clarify because surgery is more of an assistive option.

Interviewer: Oh, okay.

Dr. Oakley: So not so much a treatment. It doesn't specifically cure or treat allergies. It helps with the symptoms, but in and of itself would not be sufficient. It goes along with these other treatments. So surgery can address some of the more bothersome nasal obstruction symptoms. For example, well, let's just say specifically from anatomical factors, like a deviated septum or enlarged turbinates, which are, you know, shelves of tissue in the nose that warm and humidify the air but can get quite enlarged with allergies. So treating some of those anatomic, you know, factors can improve symptoms of nasal congestion, but you need to treat the trigger as well, the ongoing allergy trigger. So that's that medical management or immunotherapy as well. So the surgery helps, but it's not a treatment in and of itself.

Interviewer: If somebody is listening to this and you just would want them to take away one thing after we're done with our conversation, what would that be?

Dr. Oakley: The main thing I would say is don't suffer in silence. This is a really common problem with many options for treating it. We know from, you know, research study after research study that there is a significant improvement in quality of life when these allergies are managed appropriately in patients rather than just struggling with really bothersome and really distressing, you know, symptoms on a day-to-day or seasonal or yearly basis. You know, try some of these easier steps. Don't hesitate to come in and get some, you know, formal consultation and talk about other options that can really, really benefit you.

Interviewer: There is no cure for allergies. Really the best you can do is manage the symptoms, and the first step to doing that is to avoid the things that give you allergy symptoms, but that can be hard. A lot of times you can't do that. So then the next step are sprays, pills, and eye drops.

Dr. Gretchen Mae Oakley is a nose and sinus expert at U of U Health. She's also an allergy expert, and she's going to take us through the process of trying to figure out how to manage those symptoms and then maybe help us understand when you might need to get professional help. So Dr. Oakley, let's first start with allergy sprays.

Dr. Oakley: There are a couple main nasal sprays that work really well and have great evidence behind them for the treatment of allergies. Our first-line treatment based on the literature and just how well it works in patients is nasal steroid sprays, and fortunately they're all over the counter. Some of those sprays would be, if I were to name some, Fluticasone nasal spray, Mometasone, Budesonide. Those are probably some of the three most common. There're a couple others in that, you know, similar family and those work really well.

You can use them up to twice a day, more than that is not going to help anymore, but once or twice a day use. They're very reliant on regular consistent use, and they have a bit of a slower ramping up effect, so you really want to use them for at least, you know, a few weeks on a daily basis just very regularly to get their full effect rather than, you know, here and there when your symptoms bother you.

Interviewer: If the over-the-counter stuff doesn't work, are their prescription ones that are very different from that, or is most of them over the counter nowadays?

Dr. Oakley: There's an antihistamine spray that is a prescription that can actually work great for a lot of patients too, either as their primary treatment or as a, you know, secondary, an additional treatment if the corticosteroids sprays alone don't work enough for them. That antihistamine spray is called Azelastine, and it works particularly well for those let's call them the wet allergy symptoms, which is, you know, more of those like sneezing, runny nose, itchy, watery eyes, that kind of tickle sensation that we can get with allergies. They work okay for the nasal congestion symptoms, but the steroid sprays work better for that.

Interviewer: What is it that makes it so different from person to person that perhaps maybe a steroidal spray would work for one person but not another, they'd have to use, you know, an antihistamine spray? Is it just the difference in us as humans?

Dr. Oakley: We don't always know exactly why some patients respond better to some sprays, you know, versus others. It may just be a severity of their symptoms. You know, they may get 75% better with the steroid sprays, but it may just not quite be enough. Whereas somebody else where their symptoms are maybe moderate rather than severe, they may do great, and that's all they need.

Some patients may be a little more bothered by like the runny nose and the sneeze, whereas, you know, in those cases antihistamine sprays would work better for them. So sometimes we just get different presentation of our allergies, different symptoms and different severities. But you're right that the other factor is we're all just a little bit different and we respond just a little bit different to certain treatments.

Interviewer: It can be a little frustrating as an allergy sufferer sometimes because I think sometimes as patients we think, "Well, I'm going to go in and the doctor's going to give me the cure," right? But with allergies it sounds like, you know, sometimes you have to do some experimenting on what's going to work best for that individual person.

Dr. Oakley: Exactly. There's definitely some trial and error there to try to get it just right for that patient. The third thing in terms of nasal treatments I didn't mention, that I'd be remiss if I didn't mention, is very straightforward, and it's just some saline in the nose, saline irrigations specifically. Those can work really well as an adjunct treatment. It's not going to in and of itself fix your allergies, but it can help with some of the symptoms along with some of these other treatments by mechanically washing, you know, those allergens, those irritants, those pollens out of the nose so they're not just sitting, you know, on the lining of the nose inflaming it. So it can help, you know, in some of those ways as well.

Interviewer: So do you normally go nasal spray first and then oral medication? Is that how that usually goes?

Dr. Oakley: I would say, in general, yes. I like to give people topical treatments over oral treatments if possible, just because your side effects tend to be lower. The other thought in that however, that I'll talk to patients about, is that certain oral treatments, like oral antihistamines specifically, those tend to work similarly to a nasal steroid spray, have similar effectiveness, but sometimes patients will have symptoms that are not just in the nose. They'll have, you know, maybe some dermatitis that they get with their allergies that bother them or, you know, symptoms like that that are elsewhere, and sometimes the systemic therapy, an oral therapy in that case can be a little bit more helpful than a localized therapy.

Interviewer: So oral medications, let's talk about over the counter first. What are kind of the choices there?

Dr. Oakley: I would say the main one, the front runner are those oral antihistamines. So the newer versions that tend to work better for patients with fewer side effects are those medications like Loratadine and Cetirizine and Fexofenadine. Those are the main kind of newer generation oral antihistamines. The older generation antihistamines would be, you know, what we know as Benadryl, which can work too but has, tends to have higher side effects and be more sedating for patients. So we generally recommend those newer generation, non-sedating medications. And they have great evidence behind them, they work well, and those are over the counter.

Interviewer: And then itchy eyes is another symptom that a lot of people have with allergies. I used to suffer terribly, and then I was prescribed some eye drops, which now I think I can just get over the counter because I've bought them. I think they're the same thing, which makes all the difference in the world. Can you talk about some of the eye drops you might want to look for if itchy eyes are part of your allergy symptoms?

Dr. Oakley: Yeah, eye drops can actually help a lot, and it is generally an antihistamine eye drop. There are a couple different ones. One that's popping into my mind is Olopatadine. That can actually help patients significantly because a constant itchy eye will drive you crazy.

Interviewer: And just like all the other things, the nasal sprays, the oral medications, I had to try a couple of different antihistamine eye drops before I found the one that really kind of worked for me. So you know what, I started out thinking, well, let's see if we can give people, you know, some things they can try on their own, but then you start talking about how, you know, this combination isn't proven to work as well as that combination, and it can get really complicated really fast. So I'm starting to think maybe if like the first nasal spray doesn't work, maybe go see a doctor to try to figure out what combinations of stuff because that does get complicated pretty fast, doesn't it?

Dr. Oakley: It does get complicated pretty fast. It is certainly reasonable to try a couple over-the-counter meds on your own. I personally, you know, if I were in the patient's shoes, I would start a nasal spray and give that a few weeks personally. If that didn't work, you know, I'd maybe try an oral antihistamine for a couple weeks and see how I do. But after that, I don't see a lot of sense in just suffering. I think it's worth going in and talking to your doctor about some alternative options that may help quite a bit rather than just being miserable.