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Scot: Troy. Hi, Troy.

Troy: Hi.

Scot: What's going on, Troy? Are you my bro', Troy?

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Seem to have some sort of an accent all of a sudden. What's up, Troy? Bro.

Troy: I don't know what that accent is.

Scot: I don't either. Not anybody I'd want to meet. "Who Cares About Men's Health?" providing information, inspiration, and motivation to better understand and engage in your health. So you feel better today and in the future. You know what we're looking for around here? Troy knows what we're looking for around here. We're looking for guys who are proud to say they care about their health and they don't care who hears about it. My name is Scot. I am the manager of thescoperadio.com, and I care about men's health. And I don't care, I'm proud to say that.

Troy: You're proud. I love it. I'm Dr. Troy Madsen. I am an emergency physician at the University of Utah, and I also care about men's health.

Mitch: I'm Mitch Sears. I am a producer at The Scope Radio, and I also care about my health and I'm proud about it.

Scot: How many episodes into this are we and we still haven't convinced Mitch?

Troy: Convinced Mitch. Mitch is back with us though. That's the best part of this, even though Mitch isn't convinced that he cares about his health yet. He's back with us on the show. We've missed you, Mitch.

Mitch: Oh, I'm glad to be back. I've missed you guys.

Scot: Now that he's back, we can have some influence. Maybe that's what it is. It's like prescription medication. He's been off of it for a while and he hasn't been, you know, now that he's back on, maybe he'll start caring again.

Mitch: Sure.

Troy: Yeah, exactly. We got to get this ramped back up again. We'll start low dose with you, Mitch, and then we'll get you excited by the end of this episode.

Scot: All right. On today's episode, we're going to talk about gifts for better fitness, not GIFs like the animated GIFs you see on Facebook and Twitter, but gifts.

Troy: Is it "giff" or is it "jiff"?

Scot: Yeah, that's a different debate for a different time, my friend. Anyway, gifts for better fitness. Each one of us have come up with three things that we think would be good for somebody who is interested in fitness or wellness in your life, or even you, you know, this might be something that you would like. I just want to share this with you guys though, first of all, and I think this kind of highlights a problem. And one of the problems that we face getting other men to care about their health or men caring about their health is because there are two camps it looks like that have been developed. There's not a lot of room for just kind of regular guys.

So I Googled gifts for better fitness. So when I Googled gifts for better fitness, here's what came up, 40 wellness gift ideas for health fanatics. Another one, fitness lovers, gym lovers, and fitness fanatics, health nuts for the person who never skips a workout.

Mitch: Oh my God.

Scot: Five best fitness gifts for anyone who loves working out. Right? So like, as I'm looking at this, I'm like this is not what I want this particular episode to be. You know, it seems like there's a lot of just . . . it's like it's reserved for only certain people. If you're not a fanatic, then there's, you know, no need for you to want to get in your wellness. It's not for a regular person. It's just for a fanatic or a nut. Did anybody else get that or is that just me?

Troy: Oh, I've felt that forever, Scot. It's like we're such a polarized society in so many ways. And it's the same thing in fitness. It's like there are more health spas and fitness centers than there have ever been, yet we have the highest obesity rate in this country that we have ever had. It's like you're either all in or you're not at all. And it drives me crazy that there's that yeah, it's like, okay, you're a fitness nut. Or it's like I can't do that. You know, it's so frustrating, but I totally agree.

Mitch: Well, one of the things that I notice all the time, either doing research for this podcast or when I was working on the 5k and I do care about my health, I'm doing that, but it's the pictures, right? You see these pictures, and it's like you're a fanatic and it's just this huge muscly dude. And it's like, "Oh my God, I'm nowhere near that." You know, it's like it's these beasts of people that over and over again, it's like, this is not for me. It doesn't look like for me. Or it's a super lean runner. It's never, I don't know, a regular guy. You know?

Troy: Yeah, agreed.

Scot: It's like there is no in between ground. Like there just is no middle ground, right? So I think that's lesson number one. We're, I don't know, just minutes into this podcast and already boom, knowledge bomb.

Troy: Knowledge bomb.

Mitch: That's why people tune in.

Troy: That is why, hey, we have over 800,000 listeners.

Scot: Just let off in your ears and knowledge bomb. There is a middle ground. Fitness is for everybody, and that's why we came up with, you know, the core four plus one more. We're not only trying to make it simple, but we're trying to make it accessible for everybody because it should be. Time and time again it has been proven that if you focus on sweating for 30 minutes a day or getting some sort of activity 30 minutes a day, focus on what you eat and try to eat more better food for you than, you know, not as good food, you work on your sleep and your mental health, that that will have benefits today and in the future.

So anyway, that is lesson number one. Let's get to the main part here. We have each picked three things for individuals that are interested in perhaps investing in one of the core four. So whether that's nutrition, exercise, sleep, or stress management, that's either worked for us or that we like. So Troy, do you want to start?

Troy: Yes. Do I just present one or do you want me to present all three of my ideas?

Scot: I think do one at a time, and if there's a reason to discuss, we can discuss. If not, we'll just move on to the next one.

Troy: It's going to be like opening gifts on Christmas morning. Each person gets to open one of their gifts, and then we'll go to the next person. So I'm not going to open all my gifts at once.

Scot: All right. Yeah, I like your idea. You open one, I open one, Mitch opens one. Okay.

Troy: Exactly. But I have tried to spread mine out over the core four. Granted they're only three gifts, but they kind of spread out over the core four. So my first gift, and I've tried to have these all gifts under $30. So pretty reasonably priced if you want to buy one or, you know, recommend or ask for one or buy one for someone else. But my first gift is a hard foam roller. This is a great gift. I think I use a foam roller every day. It's one of those things if someone is just getting into running or working out or biking or whatever it is, it seems like the biggest thing that always stops them from moving forward, as I talk to people, is the aches and pain in their legs. They get hip pain. They get knee pain. They get these super tight IT bands.

I think a hard foam roller is a great thing to do. You can give them a little bit of information about how to use it, you know, how to roll the IT band. And I think it's one of those things that's going to help people get through those initial first couple months of really starting to work out more and, you know, working through a lot of the aches and pains that come with it. I think we work out, and we forget about the stretching. We forget about the foam rolling piece. I think that's great for sustainability.

Scot: Let me jump in with the foam roller. So we have one, and not only does it help when you roll over those sore muscles and you want it to, you want to roll over those sore muscles. It should hurt. It's called sustained compression and it helps out muscle release and it helps kind of, I don't know. What else is it doing in there, Troy? Do you know?

Troy: You know, it's just breaking down a lot of those fibers that just tighten up. That's really it. It's helping with that muscle release. It's helping, you know, with the IT band, which has connective tissue to loosen it up so it's not pulling so hard on the knee and the hips.

Scot: And then the other thing you can use it for too is you can lay on it. So lay on your back on it and then get a couple of light dumbbells or something. And put your arms out at your side with your elbows bent and just it gives you this nice chest stretch, which for me is great because I'm constantly shoulders forward, over my keyboard, over my device. You know? So that really kind of stretches that out and loosens that up and makes you feel better. Good gift. What do you think, Mitch?

Mitch: I like it. I mean, I have it and when I was doing the 5k stuff, I used it almost every day after Troy talked about it all the time.

Scot: All right, Mitch, go ahead. What's your gift? Gift number one for Mitch.

Mitch: So gift number one under $30, it is a fun lunch box. So hear me out. So a lot of times . . .

Troy: I was just going to shut you up, Mitch, and say let's move on. Okay, go on. Explain.

Mitch: So whether it be a bento box or like a cool, like one that has, you know, a roll-out mat or whatever, I think that one of the big things for me, at least, especially a couple of years ago when I was working for my own business at the start is that I ate out all the time. All the time. I would go and you just get busy and you're buzzing around. And what changed for me from eating out to preparing the food and making myself a good, healthy lunch, as kind of dumb as it sounds, was looking forward to stuffing that meal, that lunchbox, right?

It's not just a brown sack. It's not just a Tupperware or a meal prep container that you just throw in a bag and whatever. But it's part of a ritual, right? It's something that you look forward to. You know your food is going to be safe. It's not going to be mush. It's going to be the right temperature, blah, blah, blah. There was something very exciting and, you know, pleasing about finding a really cool lunchbox that worked for me, and it made me excited to make myself healthy lunches.

Scot: And then as a result, you're not eating out as much. So I love that. That was a really good idea. Make it into a ritual. Yeah. You know, one of the things I've realized just off to the side for a moment is with all of these things in the core four, whether it's exercise, nutrition, sleep, what's the other one, mental health, you know, different things work for different people, right? So that lunchbox idea might not work for me, but it worked for Mitch and it might work for you. You know, for me a different way might work to get me to want to take my lunch to work if, you know, you're still going into work. So super good.

All right. There's always one of these guys at the Christmas party. I wasn't aware there was a $30 one.

Mitch: Oh no.

Troy: So you're like the $200 gift, like the GPS watch, the Fitbit.

Scot: Yeah, you bet everybody else feels terrible about it. I also don't have much of a memory apparently, because I, my number one is a kettlebell. I'm still on kettlebells. I love kettlebells.

Troy: So your gift is seriously a kettlebell?

Scot: Yeah, sure.

Troy: Just to be clear, we've now talked about kettlebells on at least six episodes. That's all right. That's all right, Scot.

Scot: So on episode 58, we had Caleb on. He talked about, you know, kettlebells and what weights to get and so forth and so on. And I went to the Bountiful, you know, the parking lot on Walgreens in Bountiful and did the deal that I found in the classified ads, because you can't find kettlebells anywhere else, except for on the used market. It's like a drug deal, except for it's for pounds of cast iron. I have a 10 pound one, and then I have a . . . hold on, about that heavy of a one apparently.

Troy: The grunting, yeah. Was that your 35 pounder?

Scot: It's not the poo. That's a 17 and a half pound.

Troy: That's a half poo.

Scot: I have the heavier ones out in the garage, but I have these two lighter ones in my office. And every hour I get up for five minutes and I do some. It might be a goblet squat. It might be an overhead press. It might be some sort of a one-arm deadlift, could be a back row. And I love it. It forces me to get up. It forces me to get the blood pumping a little bit. Sometimes if I'm working on a work problem and I'm stumped, just getting up for that 5 or 10 minutes and doing a couple exercises with the kettlebell is enough to kind of break me from, you know, getting stuck and getting back into whatever it is that I'm working on. So that is my suggestion is get a lighter kettlebell.

Now Caleb talked about the 35-pound ones for, you know, doing some heavier stuff, but like a 10-pound or a 17-pound, just to do some of those little exercises in your office.

Troy: I like it. Yeah, multitasking especially during Zoom meetings, boring Zoom meetings, pull out the dumbbell. Just keep your arms down.

Scot: Yeah. And be sure you turn the camera off because nobody wants to see you working out with your kettlebell. Although a lot worse has happened on Zoom, but we won't go there.

Troy: Much worse has happened.

Scot: Troy, gift number two.

Troy: Gift number two is a sun lamp. So these are these little sun lamps you can get that sort of simulate sunlight. I always struggle with this transition to winter. Like every year I'm like, ah, I love being outside. I love the sun. I love summertime. And there's this transition just seems to hit November where everything's dark. So now I have a sun lamp I recently purchased and I have it in my office. So it serves multiple purposes. Number one for Zoom meetings, it's good. It gives you some nice light from your sun lamp that actually looks like you've got sunlight coming in through your window instead of just sitting in a dark room.

And number two, there are proven mental health benefits of having that sort of that simulated sunlight. So this gets at the sort of the mental health piece of the core four, but it's something you can get again under 30 bucks and it's something where, you know, you can just say, hey, it's not for depression. Or, you know, I don't think you have seasonal affective disorder or anything like that. It's just great Zoom light and adds a little more light to your day as you're working in the office, going through Zoom meetings.

Scot: Just talking with my wife the other day about how our energy levels have just drastically dropped now, you know, after 5:30 when it's dark. Like we used to be able to work later at night, now not so much. So I think a sun lamp is a great idea because especially in these short, you know, the short day months that we're in. Mitch, unwrap gift number two.

Mitch: Number two, it's like the opposite of what Troy just suggested. It is . . .

Troy: Blackout blinds?

Mitch: It's a really nice sleep mask. So Troy turned me on to sleep . . .

Troy: What happens, Scot, if someone steals our gift? I'll find a new one, Mitch. Go on. It's all right. I'll find a new one.

Mitch: Because, Troy, it was last year. I don't remember if it was on air or not, but you were like, I swear you swore by sleep masks. I'm like, you know, who like my grandma, wears a sleep mask? Like I as a 30-year-old man will not ever wear a sleep mask. I got one.

Troy: I hear that a lot. Don't worry.

Mitch: I got a good one.

Troy: You did? Yeah.

Mitch: And with the $30 budget, you can get some really nice ones. I can't say any like names or anything, but there are some that they look like a brassiere and they keep up off your eyeballs. They're amazing.

Troy: They're great. That's as exactly mine.

Mitch: Right?

Troy: In my eye brassiere.

Mitch: You look like a bug, but like night and day. You know, I have a little Fitbit. I track my sleep, and it just changed everything. I have a dark apartment. It's not like it's, you know, particularly the bed, but just 100% blackout, completely changed the way I slept.

Troy: That's so great to hear, Mitch. I love it. And it's a great gift too. Let's say someone doesn't want to use it every night. Just tell them, "Hey, it's for travel." Like so often when you travel, you know, you just need something else. Just, you know, you don't have great blackout blinds or whatever. It may be wherever you're staying. It's just nice to have on hand. So it's great to hear that. I agree. I think a sleep mask is a great gift.

Scot: That's awesome that you noticed a difference in your Fitbit sleep activity.

Mitch: I did. And then on top of that, like the reason I really like it as a gift is that like it's not something like a guy is going to get themselves. I think that there is a like activation energy for getting involved in like that kind of purchase. And just to be like, here, it's a good one. It's comfortable. Try it. I think that that's really great for something that you can give to someone.

Scot: Yeah, and certain families you might want to somehow figure out how to back channel like your mom or your sister to gift that to you, because then when you open it up, you can look at all the other guys in the family go, "I don't know what this is."

Troy: "I'll never use this."

Scot: "All right. Thanks, mom, I guess."

Troy: Yeah, once you get over that initial embarrassment, it's just like, hey, whatever, I'm using it. This works. That is the point that I am at now.

Scot: All right. My gift number two is a fitness tracker. Here's my advice on this though. If you're getting it for yourself or even somebody else, buy it used. You don't need to go out and buy the fancy, super expensive ones. I feel that steps and sleep are the only two things that this fitness tracker needs to do. Well, I can't use brand names because we can't endorse anything here, but you know what they are. You probably will only be using it for a few months. My fitness tracker that I had I used, I think, for six months, eight months, and then I kind of lost interest in it, but what it did for me was it was a good reality check.

It it's kind of like, you know, weighing your food. You do that for a while and you start getting a better understanding of portion sizes, and then you don't have to do it anymore because you can just eyeball it better. So I used to think I went to bed at 10:00 religiously, my sleep tracker, my fitness tracker told me a totally different story. It told me that I was going to bed at 10:30, 11:00, 11:15. So that was useful information that helped me then put routines then to make sure that I was actually going to bed at 10:00 and not just thinking that I was.

And then it also helped me with my activity. I realized I wasn't up and moving as much as I thought I was. So again, it kind of just dialed in my perception to the reality so I was able to make adjustments. So that's why I would say a fitness tracker. I would say buy it used because, you know, you're probably going to get about six months out of it anyway, or get one and then pass it to another family member for six months. That might be another option.

Mitch: Oh, that's actually interesting because I use my fitness tracker all the time, and when I was quitting smoking, the thing I noticed was my resting heart rate. It dropped by 20, 30 points over the entire experience.

Troy: That's cool. Wow.

Mitch: So being able to see that number really changed, like how I was, you know, my recommitment to the quitting and things like that. It was something very quantitative for, you know, my experience.

Scot: All right, Troy, are you on gift number three?

Troy: I am. So unfortunately the other gift I purchased was already gifted. So I have a new gift I'm going to give, and this is more relevant to those of us who live in colder climates. But this is something I cannot say a brand name, but it's something that attaches, you strap it to the bottom of your shoe. It's kind of like tire chains for your shoe, a little something you just strap on there. It's like this rubberized thing, has these little coils on the bottom of it. It's named after an animal called a yak.

These are super useful. I absolutely love these. And I'll tell you it's multipurpose. Number one, you know, we want to be getting outside every day. Maybe you don't have a treadmill or maybe just don't like treadmills. You just want to be outside, get some fresh air, but with icy roads, snow on the ground, you're just like, hey, it's just like I can't get out there and try and walk in this stuff. Just throw these things on. They give you a great traction. This is what I run in on the winter. If we don't have too much snow and I'm just running on icy roads, they work beautifully.

Number two, it keeps you out of the ER. You know, one of the biggest thing we see so many slips and falls this time of year, especially as we start to get snowstorms, we get ice on the road and on sidewalks, people slip, they fall, they get forearm injuries, hip injuries. So it's multipurpose for your health. It's great to help keep your routine up. So you're getting out, walking every day. Great gift for people just to, you know, like I say, keep them sustaining their routine they already have in place and then keep them safe while they're out there. Scot: We have those as well, Troy. We use them when we got dogs. We'd walk our dogs in the morning and then in the evening and in the wintertime. It doesn't happen a lot here in the Valley, in Salt Lake City. But you know, you'll get packed snow or ice and it is slippery out there. And I fell one time, pretty substantially and it hurt my knee for a good four or five months after that. That was the day I went out and bought some of those. And there are different kinds. You know, there're the kinds that you alluded to, but there are a little bit more heavy dutier ones that might work for you. But they're a game changer like you say it.

Troy: Yeah, they are a game changer. You go from just slipping on roads to just great traction on sidewalks, roads, paths, whatever you're on.

Scot: All right, Mitch, gift number three. I'm so excited. I can't see what you brought to the Christmas party.

Mitch: So the last thing that I brought is, again, a really cool journal. So again, stay with me. So a journal, right, is something that is really hard for people to get into at the beginning, right? Whether it be keeping it as a planner, right? Whether it be using it to write your gratitude, whether it be whatever, it's really hard to get into it. And if someone just hands you like a spiral bound notebook, it's like I don't know if I like this. Scot, you've seen me in all my meetings. I have my little journal that I carry around. That journal is my planner. That journal is my gratitude journal. That journal is where I write my notes in meetings. It's my one thing that has everything in it.

And for me, I occasionally have anxiety. And so being able to write everything down and get it out of my head, I'm not keeping my schedule in my . . . I'm not relying on technology. I'm not looking at a screen. I'm actually writing everything down. It it's like a load off, right. It gets the ideas out of my head. And then it's really easy to start incorporating other things into a literal journal, right? Whether it be leather-bound, get yourself something nice. You know, for 30 bucks you can find yourself a really nice journal. Some of them even come pre-made, whether there are certain systems, you know, they're not a name brand, but there are certain strategies called bullet journaling. There's the five minute journaling. It's these different techniques on how to not only check in with yourself mentally, but also to check in with how your day is doing, time management, gratitude.

And, you know, it's really easy to try these systems out if you have a really cool journal that you pull out all the time, you interact with, it's yours. Again, it helps make the act of checking in with yourself, getting things out of your head, practicing gratitude, easier for me. And that's been a huge help with my mental health over the last year.

Troy: I love it. Yeah, we've made fun of it before, but I have my little planner. So it sounds like, Mitch, you kind of use your journal both as a journal and as a planner and sort of a task list. Yeah, I'm a huge believer in just being able to write stuff down, tasks, write those down so I can just put it out of my mind. I write it down. A week from now I'm going to think about this again. For now I'm not going to worry about it. But, you know, we just had the episode with Dr. Chan as well, where Scot and I talked about journaling and, you know, Dr. Chan talked a lot more about how it's a lot about gratitude and reaching out and expressing that directly to others, but certainly there's value in that act of writing down the things we're grateful for.

And Mitch, I think, as you mentioned as well, just that process of just trying to work through stuff that's on our mind and just being able to write it down and think about it I think really does a lot to relieve anxiety and get a lot of those things off our minds. So love the idea of having a really nice journal. And I think once you get that from someone you think, hey, I really should use this. Why don't I try just jotting a few things down in this?

Scot: And if you want to start journaling yourself. So one of the most valuable things I think you said right there, Mitch, is go out and find out like some sort of a system to journal, what to journal about because where do you start is difficult. I do something called the daily pages, which basically is just a free form. You write for, well, I think it's supposed to be 30 minutes, but I do it for 10. You're supposed to write for 30 minutes and you're not supposed to edit yourself. Think about it. It's not anything in particular. It's just whatever's in your head. It just gives you a chance to dump, you know, any of the toxic-ness out.

Sometimes I get sick and tired of hearing myself with the toxic-ness. So then I go, well, what else can I do? You know, what else can I ponder? And the only rule is you can't stop writing. If you stop writing, then you just start writing, "I don't know what to write," over and over again, until something comes to you.

I'm going to go ahead and give a different kind of take on that. A really nice journal might be, for some people, the thing that really motivates them to do it. For me, that's too much pressure. I would rather have like a cheap composition book that I don't go, "Oh boy, I can only put like golden thoughts in here because this is my $30 beautiful leather bound journal," right?

Mitch: I feel good. I feel good. It's like this is me time. I guess I can say that.

Scot: So, I mean, I totally get it. Like, it goes back. You like the nicer things in life. I understand that. You like nice lunchboxes. You like writing journals.

Troy: Scot, you're writing yours on like paper towels.

Mitch: This is my roll of paper towels.

Troy: Here I go.

Scot: Bar napkins. That might be an indication you've got a problem.

Troy: There's an issue there.

Scot: But yeah, find out, you know, even if it's just writing down gratitude or just getting thoughts external to yourself. I can also vouch, Mitch. I do it a little bit differently. I do it in Evernote, in my computer. They do say that there is a benefit to actually free handwriting, that there is actually an added benefit to that. I don't feel comfortable having a journal out in the world that can be floating around. So that's why I choose to use Evernote, but I can definitely vouch for the process of getting things external out of your head. I agree with you, Mitch. It makes a huge difference. It can reduce anxiety, it can make you feel better about situations, and sometimes it helps you come up with solutions that you didn't see before. So I love it.

All right. Is it my turn for number three?

Troy: This is it. This is the final gift, Scot? I hope it's a good one. I do know it's going to be an expensive one. So go on.

Scot: You're right. It is. So number three for me is something that I'll refer to as bone conduction headphones, bone conduction headphones.

Troy: So this conducts the sound through the bones in your skull.

Scot: Yeah. So instead of putting them in your ears or over your ears, there are these headphones that kind of go on the side of your head. And that way you can hear what's going on outside of your environment. So again, when I walk the dogs or run, I can listen to music or a podcast, but I can also very clearly hear cars and anything else that's out there. So not only it makes me feel safer, but the other thing is I used to have the kind that you put in your ears and every time I'd take a step, they'd make some weird noise in my ear, just from them moving around in my ears. And these bone conduction headphones don't do that. So it's not annoying to me like it used to be when I listened through regular headphones.

I think you can find them for less than a hundred bucks, but yeah.

Troy: Less than a hundred. Like they sit behind your ear or where exactly do they sit?

Scot: Oh, geez. I can't even really tell you. Let's see. So I put them on . . .

Troy: I'm going to guess behind the ear, because this is like the old tuning fork. You know, we use these tuning forks in the ER, like I don't use them. I should not say we use them in the ER. Neurologists use tuning forks, and you'll actually stick it on the forehead. Like you hit a tuning fork, you stick it on this middle of someone's forehead and you stick it behind their ear, and it measures different forms of conductive hearing loss. So I'm guessing these bone conduction headphones use that same sort of pattern where it's just conducting through the bone. As long as you don't have bone conduction hearing loss you're okay. That's cool.

Scot: The other great thing is like, even if you're out hiking and you want to have your music or your podcasts, again, you're able to hear the thing you want to hear, but you can also hear nature as well, which is nice. So they're great because they don't just shut your ears completely off.

Troy: They're wireless, I assume?

Scot: Yeah, they're Bluetooth. Yep, absolutely.

Troy: They have Bluetooth, yeah. Cool.

Scot: Wow. What a great Christmas. I'm looking around at all these gifts. And again, it's just like every Christmas I look around and I just think, oh man, just got too much, but these are all good things to tie into our core four. So I'm a little bit more okay with it.

Troy: Yeah, and who would have thought three guys could be so thoughtful? I mean, look at these very thoughtful gifts. I hope everyone appreciates what we've offered today.

Scot: Hopefully, we gave you an idea, something for yourself or something for somebody in your life that is interested, not necessarily a nut or a fanatic or a freak in, you know, just being healthier.

Time for just going to leave this here, could be something about health, could be just a random observation or thought from our lives. I'm just going to leave this here. We have a brand-new dog. He's a seven-month-old Australian shepherd puppy. And when I say puppy, I mean a 50-pound puppy. He's a big dog already. And we're working really hard with training Murphy. And he responds really well to treats, and amazingly he loves his own dog food. So that's what we use for training treats.

My just going to leave this here is every pocket of every piece of clothing now has either two or three pieces of dog food in it or dog food crumbs. So every time I reach into a pocket, now that's what I'm greeted with and I'm strangely okay with it. So there's my just going to leave this here.

Troy: Sounds like my life. Yeah, all my running shorts, running sweats, everything I reach in, there's some like a piece of a dog treat in there. I always take dog treats when I run just to reward Charlotte when she does a good job and keep her motivated. So I can understand that.

I'm just going to leave this here, Scot. You know, I had an experience recently. Laura and I were back East and were at Virginia Beach, cool place, a fun place to visit. And on Virginia Beach, they have this set-up there. So Virginia Beach, you know, it's near Norfolk. You know, it's got kind of the Navy military piece there. So the Navy, the military set up this kind of workout area there where they have all these things you can climb and different fitness challenges.

Well, there was this 20-foot tall rope there. And I was like, "I've got to climb this rope." I have not climbed a rope in probably 20 years. So I just thought I'm going to jump on and do this. And I just started climbing the rope, and as I got higher, I realized that an audience was gathering. People were actually there to watch me, watching me climb the rope. And at that point I realized I have to go all the way up the rope and I have a fear of heights. So I told myself, I am not looking down. I kept climbing and I made it and I actually made it to the top of the rope, hit the bar at the top, slid back down, got a rope burn on my ankle that lasted for two weeks after that, but it was worth it. It was worth the pride and the accomplishment of climbing a rope on Virginia Beach in front of an audience that had gathered to watch me climb the rope.

Scot: That's outstanding. Congratulations.

Troy: Thank you. That was my fitness accomplishment over the last month, so very proud of it.

Scot: Like you, we used to have a rope in grade school.

Troy: Oh yeah, we too.

Scot: We would climb that rope every once in a while. A lot of kids couldn't do it and that was one thing I was able to do, but I don't know that I could do it now anymore. I'm a little bit of a different build.

Troy: It's so funny. I know, because that's . . . as I thought about it, I thought, I don't know if I've actually climbed a rope since grade school. And it was that exact thought as I started as well. I thought, you know, I'm a different person than I was when I was 10 years old. I don't know if I can do this, but I made it up. So I was excited about that.

Scot: All right, time to say the things that you say at the end of podcasts, because we are at the end of ours. First of all, thank you very much for listening, do appreciate it. Reach out, lots of ways to do that. You can go to facebook.com/WhoCaresMensHealth. You can email us at hello@thescoperadio.com. What else can you do? You can call us at . . .

Troy: Call us at 601-55SCOPE.

Scot: 601-55SCOPE, yeah.

Troy: Remember it's not 801. It's 601 . . .

Mitch: 55SCOPE.

Troy: Yeah. So be sure and subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. If you like us, give us five stars and thanks for listening and thanks for caring about men's health.

This content was originally created for audio. Some elements such as tone, sound effects, and music can be hard to translate to text. As such, the following is a summary of the episode and has been edited for clarity. For the full experience, we encourage you to subscribe and listen— it's more fun that way.

Most resolutions seem to revolve around getting "fit." Whether you resolve to go to the gym more, lose weight, start dieting, etc. But resolutions that require a sudden and drastic lifestyle change seem impossible to accomplish, and there's a good reason for that.

According to a US News and World Report, 80 percent of people fail their New Year's resolution by the second week in February. The study explains that the high rates of failure are due to the approach people make to changing their habits. Most people try to change their daily activities and habits through sheer willpower, rather than work to change their attitudes and motivation. Any big lifestyle change is stressful. Without committing to changing your mindset, activities like going to the gym and changing how you eat can be near impossible.

Meanwhile, Troy doesn't do New Year resolutions because he feels their so cliche. He personally doesn't believe in the attitude of going from zero to sixty with any changes. He feels that the idea that things will suddenly change on January 1st is crazy. He instead prefers to take a more methodical approach to his lifestyle changes. After realizing he wants to make a change, Troy commits to sticking with a new habit for 30 days to try and make it a habit. He then reevaluates his goals and behaviors, adjusting as necessary.

And Scot doesn't like making resolutions because of the pressure and stakes that seem to come with it. "It just feels like ‘resolution' is a big word. Dramatic. If you fail, oh boy, you're a big fat failure."

With all that in mind, Scot and Troy have been looking for a new take on New Year's Resolution. Listener Jay Failed All of His Resolutions

Listener Jay is a self-proclaimed IT nerd from the Salt Lake Valley. He no longer makes New Year's Resolutions. He used to make the same sort of resolutions for the same reasons that most people do, but he feels that they are ultimately doomed to fail.

A person may see something in themselves that they would like to change, but they don't know how to actually make the change in themselves. So they go through an intellectual exercise of identifying and doing the activities they believe will make that change (often incorrectly).

For example, someone who wants to "get in shape" may start pushing themselves to go to the gym for an hour a day. They intellectualize that fit people go to the gym, so they do that.

But doing just the activity itself didn't impact Jay in a life changing way. He didn't like doing the activities he would resolve to do. His success rate was miserable:

"On the resolutions themselves? On those particular days, I'd venture zero percent," says Jay.

A man can only take so much failure, so eventually he stopped making yearly resolutions. It's Easier to Quit Activities than Goals

Jay feels his failure wasn't caused merely bad luck, nor was it due to a lack of commitment. Instead, he believes it had more to do with his mindset.

"I intellectually want something to change," says Jay, "but I don't emotionally want to change. I see a version of myself that is different than the version I currently am. That I want to be. But when it came down to it, when you're talking about the actual activities I was doing. If those activities got hard or tiresome, it was easy to quit."

Because Jay had not yet emotionally connected to the goal he wanted to achieve, he would go to the gym until it got hard, then he would go back to the way he was before.

For Jay, to successfully change himself, he needs to connect to a goal on an emotional level. Once that happens, quitting a goal you have feelings about is a significantly more difficult than quitting activities that are difficult to do in the first place. Learn to Win in the Moment

Jay doesn't feel resolutions are all bad.

"It's important to review who we are, and who we want to be. It should be perpetual, but a new year's resolution can be a great way to remind you to evaluate where you are in your life."

But just because January 1st comes around and you make a resolution, doesn't mean you have the emotional resolve in your life to commit to that resolution. Tying a resolution to a date makes it extremely easy to fail. You start once. Try once. If you have any setbacks you have to wait another year to the next new year.

Jay started his most successful lifestyle change at what would seem like the most difficult time. Jay's family is all about food around the holidays. There are always lots of sweets and tons of food readily available all day long. All the socializing revolves around food. While visiting his family he would overeat until he felt terrible but felt it was okay because it's the holiday.

He always would go home feeling bad about the food choices he made. It was as if he had to "get back on track" after spending the holiday with the family. As if all that rich holiday food was an inevitable set-back he had to endure each year.

So on one recent Christmas - while staring at decadent buffet at a cabin with his family - a thought struck Jay:

"These are not the choices I want to make for my health," he thought.

It dawned on him that the goals he wanted in his life, like a healthy weight, was emotionally important to him. He found he had a distinct visceral reaction to overeating. So he chose to pass up on the sweet and rich foods.

Jay actually lost weight over the holiday by keeping focus on the goal he had a connection to.

Jay believes that the best way to make big life changes is to find the moments when you have an emotional investment into what you want to do. When your gut tells you something needs to change. Seize that moment and commit to it right then, rather than waiting for a magical time like the New Year.

Jay suggests a few positive strategies he uses when he finds himself slipping into his old bad habits—ask yourself:

• "How can I win the moment?"
• "The thing that I want now, is different than the thing I wanted before. And I'm going to hold onto that sense of victory."
• "Wake up and say "Who was I yesterday, who do I want to be today and what can I change today? If it's something that hits you emotionally it's something you'll really work on."

Scot has a philosophy of presents: never give someone something they'll have to take care of. This includes books, plants, animals. Don't give people a responsibility.

In spite of this philosophy, he received a pair of at home genetics kits over the holidays. He doesn't know if he wants to take it with all the responsibility that is involved with knowing your genetic health information. So he's trying to find someone to take the second kit off his hands.

Troy doesn't want to take the kit. He's unsure about at home genetics testing. He doesn't want to know what genetic diseases he may be predisposed towards. He'd rather avoid the stress and the impact that knowledge may have on his life.

On the flip side, producer Mitch has already had his genetics tested and feels the test was no big deal. He wanted to know all his health information. He actually appreciates knowing his genetic predisposition for different diseases. For him, knowing at age 30 lets him work towards prevention of the diseases. He feels the test results gives him a sense of control over his health.

After hearing both sides, Scot is still on the fence and has a lot of questions about the DNA testing kit, but he doesn't want to do it alone. He's going to give the second one away to a listener.

If you're interested in knowing your DNA or engaging with the results, go to our website or facebook, take a short 5 question survey to be entered to win your very own DNA kit. Housekeeping

It's a brand new season for 2020. This season we're looking to incorporate more of our listeners' perspectives We want to hear from you, so don't be afraid to reach out to talk about your health.

Quick update on producer Mitch's Bell's Palsy. After a stroke scare that turned out to be Bell's Palsy, Mitch has been approached by listeners in public asking about his drooping face. After a month or two of face crippling symptoms, Mitch has full function back of his face. The only remaining signs are that his smile is still a little lopsided and he can't sarcastically roll his eyes like he used to.

Even though bell's palsy is caused by nothing he did, it did give him a scare about his lifestyle and the potential consequences he may face down the road. He has a new appreciation for his health and now considers this scare his turning point. Just Going to Leave This Here

On this episode's Just Going to Leave This Here, Scot has a man named Crazy in his backyard digging a trench and Troy recently visited Machu Picchu. Talk to Us

If you have any questions, comments, or thoughts, email us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What's like to meet your spouse in anatomy lab? How do you navigate the tricky complexity of couples matching? How do you finance your interviews? And how do you tell your spouse that you really don't like their top choice? Today on "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," I interview Chelse and Marcus, fourth-year medical students here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world. This is "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Well, welcome to another edition of "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life." I've got two guests today, Marcus and Chelse. How are you doing?

Chelse: We're good.

Marcus: We're great. Thanks for having us.

Dr. Chan: Recently matched fourth years, don't say where you matched because we'll get into that.

Chelse: Suspense.

Dr. Chan: It's suspense. All right, so let's start at the beginning. How did you two meet?

Chelse: Okay. We'll go way back.

Marcus: This is way back, yeah.

Chelse: Yeah. So we've been married now almost six years. We met at BYU. We were both pre-med undergraduates, and I was his anatomy TA.

Dr. Chan: I did not know that.

Chelse: Yeah. I can really tail it back to the moment we met. He came in to an early lab session, and I taught him the GI tract on a cadaver. Yep.

Marcus: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: And Marcus, did you go in early because you knew Chelse was going to be your TA that day, or did you really just need to learn about the GI tract and it didn't matter if . . .

Marcus: So, actually, yes, I did go in early because I knew it was her. I had seen her before that. I was taking the class with my sister, and when I saw Chelse, I think my jaw was like on the floor because she was, my sister is like, "I think you love her, don't you?" That's it.

Dr. Chan: So it's love at first sight.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: I think so.

Dr. Chan: And it wasn't love at the GI tract.

Marcus: No, not necessarily.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: No.

Marcus: I had a good friend that was in her TA section, and I was like I'm going to . . . And it was like Tuesday mornings at 7:00 a.m. I could had gone at any point in the day. So yeah, I definitely went to see Chelse, but I could get up the gumption at that point to actually talk to her.

Dr. Chan: So is this is the . . . when was this? What year is this?

Marcus: This was the . . .

Chelse: Oh, man. Of our sophomore year.

Marcus: . . . winter of 2011. It's like January 2011.

Dr. Chan: And does BYU have rules with TAs dating students, or is it kind of a free for all or have about?

Chelse: They sure do. They have rules, but we didn't.

Marcus: We weren't dating.

Chelse: No.

Marcus: I was just admiring at that point. I was just a creepy stalker.

Chelse: I really liked him and thought he was so cute, but he like never looked up at me while I was teaching, so I thought this isn't going to happen because he's more interested in the cadaver than me.

Marcus: I was nervous.

Chelse: Yeah, apparently. He like wouldn't even look at me, so that was winter semester. Nothing happened. He just kept showing up. I kept trying to get his attention. It never worked.

Marcus: That's such a lie though.

Chelse: Whatever, whatever.

Marcus: She did not try to get my attention. She already had it.

Chelse: Yeah. And then we had organic chemistry together in the fall, so that whole next year or junior year, and I was dating someone at that point. He was dating someone at that point so . . .

Marcus: No, I wasn't.

Chelse: Well, whatever.

Marcus: I was single, ready to mingle.

Chelse: Yeah. You were single at the . . .

Marcus: With you.

Chelse: Okay. And . . .

Dr. Chan: I think history is being rewritten as we're talking about it. Okay.

Chelse: But we just became really good friends, because I was in a relationship at that point. So we started becoming study buddies and became really good friends. My mom is a professor at BYU campus, so I introduced him to her. They became best friends. Now, I know they had like secret meetings behind my back.

Dr. Chan: Oh, some plotting, some engineering going on, buddy.

Chelse: He would say that he wanted to date me and that he thought he was falling in love with me. And my mom would say, "It's okay. You're going to be in her family eventually, just hang on." So, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Wow, okay. All right. So, from the time you met, when did you start dating?

Marcus: A year later. Well, actually it was . . .

Chelse: Well, a year and a half.

Marcus: No, it was longer.

Chelse: It was a year and a half.

Marcus: Because we met in the winter and then we didn't start dating until, yeah, a whole year and a half, in like October of 2012.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: And how long did you date for before getting married?

Chelse: So this sounds typical BYU unfortunately, but we knew each other, but we only dated for, well, it was almost a year.

Marcus: We got engaged in February.

Chelse: We got engaged, and we started in November, got engaged in February, and then got married in August.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: But at that point, when we started dating, we had already talked about like everything. We already knew everything about each other.

Chelse: It was more like, "Can I kiss you and have it not be weird?"

Dr. Chan: Most couples struggle with that.

Chelse: Yes, couples struggle.

Dr. Chan: All right. So one of the things that you talked about is applying to med school. Like when did that, you know, because you said you're both pre-med and we can do a whole separate podcast about like, you know, pre-med culture and how people navigated that. So how did that work at BYU? How did you guys navigate that?

Marcus: So I kind of decided at that point, once we were dating, med school. I was debating between dental and med school for a little bit, but decided on med school. And then Chelse had kind of had this experience where she felt like, I guess you could tell it.

Chelse: Yeah. I was worried about like the double doctor lifestyle, like we both want a family and I think, for better or worse, lots of LDS women maybe don't pursue medical school for a variety of different reasons. And so I kind of fell into that for a moment, trying to think like, "Well, maybe I could do a PhD route, maybe I could do PA school," because I love teaching and then trying to navigate how we would even approach a double doctor life. So I ended up kind of walking away. I didn't end up taking the MCAT, and I finished the semester. I graduated BYU a semester before he did, so I just started working in health care. And then he ended up . . .

Marcus: With like the PA goal, I mean like patient experience.

Chelse: With a PA or PhD goal. Yeah, exactly. And he ended up getting accepted to a school in Washington first.

Marcus: Oregon.

Chelse: In Oregon. Okay. Well, we didn't go, so it's fine. And it was, we thought when he applied, that we apply to places that had corresponding PhD or PA programs only and that school only had an MD program.

Marcus: DO.

Chelse: Yeah, and it was DO. And so, at that point, I thought, "Well, that's all there is, so I'm just going to go for it." So I started prepping. I took the MCAT, and then he got accepted to the U, which is what we always wanted all along, but I was already on the track. So I had made up my mind.

Marcus: But at that point you were committed to it too.

Chelse: I was committed.

Marcus: It was like ever since she was a little girl, like way more than me, she's wanted to be a physician since, you know, she was little. And so it just felt wrong to not have her kind of go after . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So, Chelse, what helped you get back on the medicine trail? I mean was there an event or series of events? Because what you express is not unknown. I mean, like a lot of people feel dissuaded for a variety of reasons.

Chelse: For a variety of things, yeah. But I mean it's what I've always wanted since I was little. And because he got in where there was only like a med school option, I felt like that was the trigger.

Marcus: It's kind of like the motivating factor.

Chelse: It was the motivating.

Marcus: Okay. I guess we're going to both do this, all of it.

Chelse: Because that was the only option for me and I felt like I can't not do it.

Dr. Chan: So once you started going, like so when there was only Oregon. it sounded like you felt like, "Okay. I can only apply to this medical school."

Chelse: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: But then when you got in Utah, it sounds like you'd already put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Chelse: I was already going. Yeah. And I had, like I had made up my mind now that I had . . .

Marcus: The fire was rekindled.

Chelse: It was back, yeah. Now that I had re-decided I was going to med school like it was done. I realized like I never would, it's just I would have had regrets forever if I hadn't done it, and it's who I am and who I always wanted to be. And so I went for it. The tricky thing then at that point was he was a year ahead of me, and so I applied and I was working here during his first year in med school, just doing research and I just remember running into you all the time.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, yeah. You're up on the second floor.

Chelse: I was up on the second floor.

Dr. Chan: You're in the OB-GYN department.

Chelse: Yes. And so you would keep walking by me, and every time I'd get so nervous because it's like, "Oh, my gosh, I saw Dr. Chan today. He's the master of my fate."

Dr. Chan: It's the committee, it's not me. It's the committee.

Chelse: I know. I know, but I didn't know that at the time and so . . .

Marcus: It definitely seems like.

Chelse: You just felt like this, yeah, like this goal, this unreachable goal.

Dr. Chan: Okay, so let's break this down. So Marcus gets into the U. I remember talking to you, Marcus, on the phone and I would say you're in the top 10 kind of dazed and confused, because I remember I kept on saying welcome and you're just like, "What?" Like, you know, I just remember it.

Marcus: You're joking with me.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Marcus: It was early.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. You seemed incredulous. You just seemed like, "This can't be happening. Is this some practical joke? Did Chelse put you up to this?" Because I remember you were very much dumbfounded on some deep level.

Marcus: Yeah. I was driving to work. It was early and unknown number, and I was just like, yeah, I thought it was some kind of joke. People around me probably knew how much I wanted to get into the U.

Chelse: It's just been sort of like humility that he has, he just like couldn't believe it. Yeah.

Marcus: One of the best moments.

Chelse: Oh, my gosh, yeah, it was awesome.

Dr. Chan: So you start school here, but Chelse is a year behind you. How was that for the first year, you know, as far as like amount of work and, you know, studying and, you know, Chelse is getting her application in order?

Marcus: Yeah. It was a little overwhelming for me. I mean, probably not uncommonly. I was a Spanish major, so I didn't have the science background, and I think, for me, I definitely experienced that learning curve of trying to get used to the language of science during that first semester. And so, yeah, it was hard, but we got through it. And Chelse was working hard during that time doing research here at the U and developing good ties there at the OB programs.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Chelse: Fortuitous.

Dr. Chan: And then did you only apply to the U, or what was your strategy the next year?

Chelse: Yep, I only applied here, which is why you were so scary every time I saw you. It just felt like all my eggs in one basket, and some of his classmates would be like, "What would happen if you don't get in?" And I would just say, "Good question, but I'm not thinking about it." Because that would have created a two-year gap, which seems it would have been harder. So we were just kind of going forward, hoping it would all work out. Yep.

Dr. Chan: So I remember calling you, and you were very excited.

Chelse: I was so excited.

Dr. Chan: You were even like one floor above us at that point.

Chelse: I was one floor above you literally, and I was so excited. I texted Marcus immediately, and I was like, "You need to leave class. There's an emergency." Because I like . . .

Marcus: I was just like in class aloof, like I didn't . . .

Dr. Chan: Did you walk out or you're just like, "Yeah."

Marcus: I did kind of, yeah. I thought maybe it was like a legit emergency, and then she kind of screamed, "I got in," and then it was pretty close to our class break, so then, at that point, my whole class kind of knew Chelse was applying and so we kind of had a little celebration.

Chelse: We had a little celebration.

Marcus: In the hall, in front of everybody.

Dr. Chan: And when did you start, so like then you knew, like you're a year behind Marcus. When did the discussion pivot to like how do we sync up? How do we . . .?

Chelse: Right then or even before we kind of started planning.

Marcus: Once I got in, we had kind of started planning a little bit. We're kind of planners, especially Chelse.

Chelse: Especially me.

Dr. Chan: So there's many options for someone to take "a year off," pursue a master's degree, do research. How did you end up choosing what you chose?

Marcus: Yeah. I've taken some business courses in undergrad, like statistics, accounting. And I really did enjoy it, so I kind of had a lingering desire to pursue business. At the time, Vivian Lee was pretty motivating as well, as far as kind of pushing physician leadership in health care kind of with an emphasis on business, I felt like. And I'm also not necessarily a business-minded person. It doesn't come naturally to me. So it was appealing to kind of let's strengthen a weakness I guess. So, for those reasons, I decided pretty early on.

Chelse: Yeah. It was an easy decision on the MBA. And so, in between first and second year, when you have that break, he prepped and took the . . .

Marcus: The GMAT.

Chelse: The GMAT.

Dr. Chan: So they still require the GMAT. I know that's been an ongoing discussion.

Chelse: Yeah. At that point he needed it. So since that was kind of his one break in med school without boards, we planned so he could take that and have it ready by the time he needed to apply. Yeah.

Marcus: So what's one more standardized test?

Chelse: Why not?

Dr. Chan: More tests.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: How was it to be . . . So you did your first two years, and then is the MBA after third year or could you go after second year?

Marcus: It's only after third year.

Dr. Chan: So you went ahead. So, Chelse, you were a year behind for three years.

Chelse: Yep, exactly.

Dr. Chan: Okay. How was that?

Marcus: It was kind of unfortunate, honestly, looking back, just because we were study buddies for so long, like we learn really similarly and work really well together, so I would have liked that. It would have been nice to have the experience. I don't know. Maybe a step prep would have torn our marriage apart. I don't know.

Dr. Chan: Or made it stronger.

Marcus: Or made it stronger. But I think, I kind of have like the regret factor as far as that goes. Like I wish I could have experienced that with her, but it ultimately ended up fine. I could kind of put out some fires along her journey where she had . . .

Chelse: Yes, super helpful for me.

Marcus: . . . worries come up but . . .

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: What were some fires?

Marcus: Just kind of specific worries pertaining to like course details or assignments or . . .

Chelse: Yeah. I think it was nice, just because he knew the resources. Like I feel when you get into med school, you have this massive learning curve and then all these new resources, and you're just trying to learn like which ones are worth your time. So he had tried the resources and kind of told me, since we learn so similar, what worked best for him. So he kind of shortened my learning curve a little bit just by helping me tailor the resources or how to best study, just . . .

Marcus: She could commit a little earlier.

Chelse: Yeah, like simple things like that. And I also think it helped watching him go through it, because then I feel like I had very realistic expectations of what all it was going to be like going in.

Dr. Chan: With the schedules kind of flipped, so first year is usually the morning is off and have class in the afternoon. And then second year, there's class in the morning and usually the afternoon is off. Like would you study together at nights, or were you kind of library buddies, or how did that work? Or did you go whole periods of time without seeing each other? I mean, what did that look like the first few years?

Marcus: It really wasn't as bad as it sounded. I felt like we still saw each other a lot, and we did, we would kind of review stuff together. And we both had our study groups, so we kind of go and see and hang out for a little while. I think both of us being in it just did set really realistic expectations and we just knew we were studying. We'd meet up and go to the gym or go get some food.

Chelse: We'd just sit by each other. We'd be studying different things, but we'd always just be by each other and it was fun. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Good.

Chelse: We survived.

Dr. Chan: All right. So I'm going to start with Chelse first, then to you, Marcus. All right. So, Chelse, if you had asked me before you got here and then all throughout the first years in med school, I would have said OB-GYN.

Chelse: Really?

Dr. Chan: All the way.

Marcus: That's what I was thinking too.

Dr. Chan: So how did you arrive at your career choice, your decision, and like how much did third year kind of play into that? So what was your journey towards that?

Chelse: Yeah. So, because I had worked in OB-GYN research before med school, I knew I loved it, but I also didn't want to pigeon hole myself because of that. So I got in, and then I got exposed to the world of dermatology because my mom has had lots of skin cancer and one of my best friends was pursuing it. So then I got sucked into derm. So, for the first two years of med school, I was dermatology all the way. I did tons of research in leadership and kind of departed from OB. And then in third year, that's when . . .

Marcus: And part of that is because it was kind of like almost typical for you, right, or people would kind of think, "Oh, yeah, she's going to go into OB because she worked in OB and because . . ."

Chelse: Right. So I wanted to like prove them wrong kind of. And, anyway, just be stubborn that way and I really did like dermatology a lot and found great mentors. But then in third year, I did my, well, family medicine was my first third year clerkship, and I delivered a baby, and that was it pretty much.

Marcus: She took this Instagram video of her. It wasn't in Instagram, but it was just a video of herself like right after she did it, and it was like all over her face that it was over.

Chelse: It was pretty much over after that. I just loved it. And then I did my OB rotation, and I like wanted to stay and my residents kept telling me I had to go home and I just was so happy. I think that's the fun thing of being in it together. We can see when the other one is like really happy when we're working in something. And that was like a clear difference for me. And then I did a little bit of derm third year, and I just didn't love it. It wasn't the patient relationship I initially went into medicine for. I didn't want to lose certain components of medicine, and so it just became an easy decision. I just felt like I fell right into it, and I just never looked back after that. Marcus' course was much more convoluted.

Dr. Chan: Yes. I remember seeing Marcus a lot. I would hear different stories because it's all about . . .

Chelse: Every time you would talk to him it would change.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So, Marcus, let's talk about it.

Marcus: Oh, man.

Dr. Chan: Let's talk about how you ended up, I'm not even 100% sure where you ended up because I think everything was on the table at one point, right?

Marcus: Everything was on the table. I started med school thinking family practice. That was kind of like in the back of my mind. And that kind of carried through throughout, but then along the way I was kind of sidetracked by OB, ENT. I mean it's kind of like . . .

Dr. Chan: And psychiatry was up there. Surgery was on there.

Marcus: I love psychiatry. I love psychiatry. I did a whole extra month in child psychiatry, and surgery was there for a while. EM was big for a couple of months. It's so funny because all my friends made fun of me for this, too, because even with my closest friends, every time we talked about it, it would change. And so, when I submitted my application, they had all kind of been thinking, you know, what I was telling them. And then I just, for fun, was like, "I ended up doing this," you know, and it was like they didn't even blink an eye. It wasn't even that good of a joke because they are totally like, "Oh, yeah, that's how Marcus works."

So, for me, after third year that you're off with the MBA was probably the most influential for that just because the time away from medicine kind of helped me gain a little more perspective and what I was looking for. And I settled on anesthesia, which was actually one that I, if you would have asked me in the first year or so of med school, I would have immediately dismissed it. It was like on my quick dismiss list.

But once I did it, I think what kind of grabbed in was the kind of really meaningful, impactful, but shorter interactions with patients. Not that I don't like interacting with patients. I actually love it. But I like the role that you play in patient care and that there's kind of like this service that you provide them, and then kind of you both go on your way. And then also just the mentors and everything, kind of their state of mind and just satisfaction with what they were doing was really influential for me at the time as well. And yeah, I mean there's lots of reasons where I ended up choosing that path.

Chelse: Yeah. And it was at like the very tail end of like . . . very beginning even of fourth year when he was still making his decision. I remember it.

Marcus: So even with the extra year, I was still right up to the . . .

Chelse: Even with the extra year, he was still right up to the deadline.

Dr. Chan: Were you doing like physician shadowing during MBA time and you just kind of little, I don't know, little evening type things?

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: I was kind of between like psychiatry, emergency and anesthesia and family.

Chelse: And family, don't forget that.

Marcus: And so my kind of two that I was most involved with was anesthesia shadowing, and then also I was working at the free psychiatric clinic.

Dr. Chan: MLA Clinic or 4th Street?

Marcus: No. It's . . . why am I blanking on the name?

Chelse: I can't even remember the name.

Dr. Chan: It was just called the free psych clinic, yeah.

Marcus: Yeah, the free psych clinic down there on like 45th South or so. Anyway, you know Gardner.

Dr. Chan: I know, yeah, Dr. Gardner.

Marcus: He's kind of the director of that clinic.

Dr. Chan: So how was it like though, like with one partner knowing what they're doing and another partner just kind of like unsure? I mean how much . . . it sounds like did it just dominate like when you guys would talk to each other just trying to figure that out or . . .?

Marcus: Well, it kind of got into the point where I was like, "I'm thinking this." And then she would kind of be like, "Oh, great."

Chelse: That's so great.

Marcus: And I'd be like, "Why are you more excited?"

Chelse: We really had this conversation on that. He's like, "I'm going to do that." And I would say, "That is so great." And I would talk to him all about the pros, and he was like, "I just don't feel like you're really excited." I was like, "We'll give it some time."

Marcus: She's like, "I'm just waiting for you to change again."

Chelse: I was waiting for it to change, but it's kind of funny because that's just very fitting for our personalities, like this is how our marriage has always been. Like I'm a very decisive person, and Marcus is more of a, "I have to see all the options and then I have to really evaluate all my decisions, and then I'll make a choice." And like this is when we go . . .

Marcus: Yeah. I mean even Netflix.

Chelse: Oh, yeah, even Netflix.

Marcus: That's like we'll search for Netflix

Chelse: He'll scroll forever versus I'll look and just decide.

Marcus: Yeah. She looks.

Dr. Chan: I assume you have separate accounts, right?

Chelse: No.

Marcus: No, it's all the same.

Chelse: It's just whoever gets the remote.

Marcus: She just sits there and she like will fall asleep sometimes before I pick one.

Chelse: Or like going shopping, like I can just look. I know what I want, I'm done, versus Marcus can't purchase something until he's seen all of his options. So like this is why we balance each other out. He makes me think about things more. I make him commit and decide. So like we balance one another. So the fact that this is how it happened with our specialty choice is not surprising at all. So we already knew how to handle each other in this way.

Marcus: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: Yeah. But once you actually committed to anesthesia, you didn't look back, like it felt right.

Dr. Chan: All right. So talk about this moving to the next step, applying as a couple, couples match. What was your initial strategy, and did it change with time? I mean how did that look like at first?

Chelse: Yeah. I feel like it's so daunting. Once you decide what you want, you think you're kind of on this downhill slope. But then you start looking at programs all over the country and realizing you don't know anything. And so both of us kind of took the approach of talking to our individual mentors in our field to get their advice on programs. And so we kind of, and also I think initial strategy for people applying is they'll start geographically limiting themselves, and we did that a little bit but not much, because with the couples match, you just have to apply.

Marcus: We kind of did unwise things as far as the couples match goes through with that regard because we have two dogs and we were kind of like we don't really want to be in New York or LA or which are . . .

Dr. Chan: Because of the dogs.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah. But just like living situation, we didn't want to end up in like some really expensive apartment with two dogs. And so we actually didn't apply to a lot of those bigger cities which . . .

Chelse: Is a good strategy for couples.

Marcus: . . . as a couples match is not a good thing, right?

Chelse: Well, that's what I'm saying, yeah, yeah.

Marcus: Because that's where tons of programs are within a close vicinity to each other and . . .

Dr. Chan: But what are the values on hearing those, like you wanted to be together, right?

Chelse: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So you wanted to be in the same area, same city.

Marcus: That was always the overarching, yeah, strategy.

Chelse: We always re-emphasized again and again and again, like our number one priority was each other and we couldn't let the match come between that, because if you let it, it will. So we just kept saying like our number one priority is each other. Like any obstacle that would come up that was have trouble that . . .

Dr. Chan: And did you talk to previous couples about the couples match or . . .?

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah. Shout-out to Maddie and Noah.

Chelse: Yeah, they were amazing.

Marcus: Maddie basically wrote us like a script on the how-to of couples match so.

Dr. Chan: And what are some things you can share from that?

Chelse: Yeah. So I think the key thing, one of the very few pros of a couples match is you have always an excuse to cold contact a program. And so you always are trying, after you submit your application. it's this weird limbo time and some will hear from others and that is where the next challenge comes. Once you decide where you're applying, then it becomes challenging because you're getting interviews at different places. But the nice thing of a couples match is you just have an excuse to reach out to them.

So we probably sent over a hundred emails to programs of saying, "My husband has an interview on this day. I'm really interested because of this and this and this." And then actually, it ended up working well for us most of the time, where we were able to secure interviews at each other's programs. So I think that's a pro of just emailing programs a lot because they know the couples match is tricky. And I think some programs, it seemed like they like couples too, because they know they're like committed and you're willing to come if you're both willing to fly out.

And I think that's the other part, sometimes from the West, I think programs in the East or the South are a little skeptical we'd ever really come out there versus, for us, we could really negate that of saying, "We're paying for two tickets all the way out here. We're not doing this because we're not committed or interested." So those were some pros. But we emailed and contacted programs a lot and had no shame or pride and just begged for interviews.

Marcus: And also financially, we had to take out private loans in order to finance both of us doing this, because it was close to almost $20,000 for both of us to do the couples match.

Dr. Chan: And is that where you originally budgeted, or did that just start ballooning?

Chelse: Based on like previous advice from couples, they averaged around like 8 to 10 grand each. So we had an idea that we were getting into that type of horribleness.

Marcus: We did save ourselves a little bit when I was a first year. We got a Southwest card and I would recommend any Skymost card because that most of my interviews with the timing, it worked out that I could use points so that did actually end up saving us a lot of money.

Chelse: It saved a lot of money, so that was good.

Dr. Chan: All right. So, Chelse, how many OB programs did you apply to?

Chelse: Oh, I applied to, we tried not to go crazy, but we applied to 47 programs.

Dr. Chan: Right. And Marcus, how many?

Marcus: The same.

Dr. Chan: Forty-seven.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: But then I had prelim and TY.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: Right.

Dr. Chan: How many interview offers to start? I mean like what was the final total?

Chelse: I had a total of 21 offers, and I ended up going on 17, just because those other ones we couldn't match up, so there was no point in me going.

Marcus: Yeah. And I had 18 anesthesia and then with other prelim and TY, and I ended up going on 14.

Dr. Chan: And did you start finding out roughly the same time because some programs, it's like radio silence and it starts causing anxiety on other stuff?

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: It was extremely anxiety provoking.

Dr. Chan: Which programs got back, I mean how did that work?

Marcus: Like anesthesia over OB? It was kind of mixed at first. We were so stressed like the week they were starting to . . . I guess it was the week after applications were submitted or a couple of weeks in and invitations started coming in but to different places and we were just like, "What do we . . ." It was like the most stress I've ever been in med school probably.

Chelse: We were panicking, yeah, because we were just getting such different places and then each of us kept having different lull periods. And so it was a little stressful. But I think it's nice in that OB and anesthesia tend to have the same busy interview seasons. It's not like derm where it's the way like in January. That would have been a lot more stressful. So I think what we learned from the couples match is right when you think you get over a hurdle, there's another one waiting. And it's been true the entire time.

Dr. Chan: And did you just have those like Google calendar, where you just like tracking each other across the country?

Marcus: Google sheets.

Chelse: We had a Google sheet.

Marcus: That we would highlight as interviews came in and then quickly put the dates so the other could immediately email. Because in the first couple of weeks we were kind of in this weird limbo where we weren't really sure if we should reach out right away just because one of us got an invite, and so that was probably the most stressful part. But then we just kind of took Maddie's advice eventually, and we were just immediately starting as soon as one person would get an invite, then the other would email.

Dr. Chan: And you felt that worked more often than it didn't?

Chelse: Yeah. Yep. Like all the ones we really wanted to get together, apart from two, we got together.

Marcus: Because also the longer you wait, I mean their invites are going out, and yeah, then they just have the excuse to just tell you, "Oh, sorry, we don't have any open spots right now."

Chelse: So we created like a Google sheet that we could both have on our phones and have live updates all the time that we would keep track of where we were denied, where we were waitlisted, where we had an interview and then the interview dates. And then we also kept track of who had emailed which programs. So we had like a pretty . . . you have to have a pretty good efficient system going, and it took a lot of time because you have to look up these programs because we wanted to make the emails personal to the program, so you have to find unique facts or try to find mentors that may have a connection. So we spent a lot of time sitting on our couch looking up programs and then drafting emails.

Dr. Chan: You probably learned like quickly some programs have great websites, other ones have like this is really vague.

Chelse: Like nothing, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, there's like nothing.

Chelse: So trying to draft like a fancy personal email was impossible. "I am very excited about your broad case exposure and your great surgical training," like you start . . .

Dr. Chan: And on those Google sheets, would you start just writing notes, impressions after a post interview? Or did you just talk about in person like this program is really good, why or why not?

Chelse: We did it in person. Some people . . .

Marcus: We had a little notebook, like little notebooks that we take with us and write impressions. And then we'd talk about it immediately after the other which . . .

Chelse: I couldn't do it differently. Some people say . . .

Marcus: Yeah. We can't kind of hold it in I guess.

Chelse: Some people say if you're couples matching, like you should try and hold what you think on a program a little closer so that your couple, your other part can just like go into a program unbiased and just open and really evaluate it for themselves instead of thinking, "Oh, my spouse loves this. I have to do well," or, "Oh, my spouse didn't like this."

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Because it just creates pressure on the other person.

Chelse: Exactly.

Marcus: And it totally happened to us. We have to say that we totally experienced that.

Chelse: A hundred percent. But at the same time, like Marcus and I's relationship, like our communication is always solid, so I couldn't not go to this awesome place and not tell him about it.

Marcus: And there was also like one that she didn't like so much that I cancelled my interview for. And so, you know, it's like . . .

Chelse: Which they say you're not supposed to do, but we did that because I just, yeah, it wasn't for me. And so we didn't want to spend the money, so we really talked about it. And so we got over the hurdle of finally getting in the spot where we had enough interviews to feel comfortable with our numbers in the same place, and then the next hurdle was we felt differently about a lot of those programs.

Dr. Chan: Okay, all right. So that kind of segues into creating your rank list. I mean what did that look like?

Marcus: Yeah. It was so hard.

Dr. Chan: Did you like have a, was this all Google docs, or do you have like a whiteboard at home?

Chelse: We did our own.

Marcus: We just talked about it, you know, just straight up and kind of made a list in the notes in our phone. But yeah, it was hard. I will say that I had really good interview experiences across the board. I really liked all the programs that I interviewed at, so I would have felt comfortable going anywhere. Whereas, Chelse, it was much different for her. There's a lot of variability.

Chelse: Yeah. I think for me, the places I interviewed they were all, that's another thing, we only applied to big academic centers. We didn't do community programs, just because academic centers tend to have more options for couples, and then also we both think we might want to do fellowship and so you kind of need those big centers. And so they were all great. But within OB, there's so many different specialties you have to be trained in with like high risk and then GYN oncology, and uro-gyn, that they all had different strengths. And some weren't as well rounded as others, so that was a big concern for me. Especially with wanting fellowship, I needed and wanted a program that had a really good track record of matching fellows because it's becoming more competitive, and then I wanted a good resident research curriculum in place.

And so that just wasn't equal across the board, and so I really try to evaluate every program on the same merit, and I ended up having three tiers really of programs. And the hard part was that some of these lower tier programs for me were really strong for anesthesia and Marcus loved them.

Marcus: So, at one point, it really did feel like she just hated all the ones that were like my favorite.

Chelse: Yeah. It was really hard.

Dr. Chan: It sounds stressful. It sounds tense.

Chelse: And one of his most favorite programs that he just loved, he loves the program, he loved the location and he loved the people, and it was one of my last programs. So I went in and so I'm going to give this everything and after that interview day, I sat in the rental car like dreading calling him.

Marcus: And like I knew immediately when I say, "Hello?" but it's just interesting. Ultimately, there was one I think that was really good, kind of neutral ground.

Chelse: It was always our neutral ground, yeah.

Marcus: That we both were really excited about as well, which ended up being a good thing. That was where we ended up.

Dr. Chan: So you submit your match list February.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Feeling good between February and March or second guessing or more anxiety or . . .?

Marcus: I will say we had our rank list done like a week before probably, and then moments, an hour before it was due . . .

Chelse: Within an hour before submission, we changed things a little bit.

Dr. Chan: A crisis.

Marcus: We had a crisis.

Dr. Chan: Perceived crisis, pseudo crisis.

Chelse: Yeah. It was probably like the hardest moment of all of it between the two of us.

Marcus: It was probably more like me. I was just mourning my favorites that had died, that like way down on the list.

Chelse: They were so low, yeah.

Marcus: And I was just kind of having . . . and then I realized because anesthesia has, some programs have our advanced meeting, the first year is not included in training. And so I had realized we had ranked some advanced above certain categoricals, and so I was like, "We need to hurry and decide again, is it more important that we're together all four years, or would you rather be at this place and potentially be a year a part at least?"

Chelse: And so we did and we went with our number one priority like an hour before it was due. We rearranged it so that all the programs that included all four years for Marcus, meaning we will be together for all four, we ranked those higher to give us the best shot of being together for all four because we decided that's what was most important. And I will say like our number one strength in our marriage has always been communication, and I think that's why we were able to survive it and come out stronger, because it's just so hard because you're balancing your love for each other within your own career goals and your own love for these programs, and it's hard when you really feel connected with a program and you love the people and you have that feeling while you're there of, "This is my place," and then you talk to your spouse and they're like, "Uh, that's not my place at all." So it's like this very, it's hard.

Marcus: It's hard.

Chelse: It's really . . . I'm not going to sugar coat it. It was a lot of hard moments.

Marcus: And it's okay to be honest about it and have your mourning moment and then kind of move on.

Chelse: Yeah, and that was the other thing. We kept having to say like we have to be honest and not take it personal. So we kept really trying to just be honest with each other. And then when he would diss one of my programs or vice versa, just to not take it personally because it's not about you, it's just trying to find the right fit for both of us.

Dr. Chan: I think anyone going through the match, I think it's doubly hard with couples. I mean you're forced to make decisions on, I would argue, limited information, right, because you have like the websites and you have these interview days and then . . .

Chelse: Which they always present the best face.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And then like you started talking to other people and other people have all these other opinions. It's like, "Oh, you know, that's a great program. Oh, you know, I heard blah blah blah blah." You know, so it's almost like this rumor mill.

Marcus: And then you have the post-interview communication which you kind of like, "Oh, maybe like they're a little more than I thought." It was sunny there that day and I mean there's, you know, all sorts of . . .

Dr. Chan: The residents seemed to be happy, but why are they happy?

Chelse: Right, and that's the hard thing, too. You're in a city because you're traveling so much interview to interview, you're in the city maybe for, if you're there for a long time, it's like a day, a complete 24-hour stint if that's a long one. So it's hard to re-evaluate can I move here for four years? And that was especially hard when we weren't there together to kind of explore the city together. So it's honestly going off of your gut.

Dr. Chan: All right. So submit the list, last minute changes, feeling good about it. What was more stressful, the Monday or the Friday? And where were you on Monday when you got the email?

Marcus: We were both at home.

Chelse: We stayed at home in our PJs, right by each other.

Marcus: And we just like refresh, refresh, refresh.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: Then finally had to like log in to the website.

Chelse: We didn't wait for the email. We just logged in to the NRNP to look, and then it said we, he found his first and it said that he had matched and mine just said not so eligible. And I was like, "What does that mean?" So then we finally . . .

Marcus: Well, there's just like an area where it says that.

Chelse: So, when we finally found it and when we both matched, we just started screaming and then hugged each other. I cried, he didn't cry.

Marcus: I think it was still stressful on Monday just with the advanced.

Dr. Chan: That's where you learn if you matched and on Friday you learn where you matched.

Chelse: So, Monday, it was really stressful and then there was a little bit of a stress taken off once we knew we had matched but not much just because with both of us, we kept wondering are we together all four years? Are we together that first year?

Dr. Chan: And you couldn't tell on the way it was worded on Monday if you weigh in like the categorical . . .

Marcus: It was just successful, so that could have been any, a combination of things that we did.

Chelse: So there was still so much anxiety.

Marcus: And we actually at the very end of our list, we did rank different programs. So she did like her favorites and I did my favorite. So there was still, you know, theoretically we could be at different places entirely.

Dr. Chan: And that part was your match wasn't coupled together, it was like de-coupled.

Chelse: Right, it was not in the same place. I mean it was way, way at the bottom of our list, but we thought it would be better for us both to start getting a job and start working and then try and get together.

Dr. Chan: Rather than one person not matching.

Chelse: Exactly. So we did that at the very end. And so we thought like there's no way we would fall down that low, but then at the same time you never know. But who knows, maybe I will.

Dr. Chan: Maybe you just checked that wrong box.

Chelse: Exactly, you never know.

Dr. Chan: On February, you shouldn't check that box.

Chelse: I know.

Marcus: Exactly.

Chelse: So that kind of, Monday took off maybe 5% of anxiety for us, but not a whole lot more because we just kept stressing about are we together, are we together, are we together? Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So, Friday, who's there, who did you invite?

Marcus: So we had my parents, Chelse's parents, her parents are divorced so her dad was there, her mom and her stepdad. And then we kind of huddled in a group with . . .

Chelse: My three closest friends in school and all their families.

Dr. Chan: And I'm sure you've tried to explain to them the couples match, but they probably didn't get it.

Marcus: It took a few times.

Chelse: It took so much, and I still think most of them . . . we even ended up sending them the NRNP. NRNP has like this couples match algorithm video that tries to explain it because we had tried so many times and we're like, "Here, watch this." And then after we did, my mom and her husband called me the next day and were like, "We couldn't sleep all night because it was just such this, how can it be like this?"

Dr. Chan: Why did they make it this way? It's like a combination of "The Matrix" and like yeah.

Chelse: It's chaos, so yeah. We had all of our family and then my really close friends in school and all of their family.

Dr. Chan: So they were prepped though for you guys to possibly leave, be of Utah.

Chelse: Oh, yeah.

Marcus: Of course they're like, "Oh, you're just going to go where you want to go." But we tried to set expectations, you know, it could happen.

Chelse: Like this is chaos, yeah.

Marcus: It could happen.

Chelse: Yeah, yeah. I know they were ready for it. We really tried to prep them to be ready for it.

Dr. Chan: Anything like just being apart for a year, yeah, or more, yeah.

Chelse: Yep. And we tried to prep ourselves for that, too.

Dr. Chan: Right. So speeches, speeches, speeches. They cut the red ribbon. You get up there, you get your envelope. Do you open each other's, just the two of you? Do you go back to your family, open in front of them? What was your MO?

Chelse: We went back to our big group. So I've always been like this really close friends group and so we all opened together. So one of my good friends, Marissa, she opened first so we were all there. So we got to watch her and celebrate with her, and then Kaisa opened, so we got to watch her and celebrate with her. All this time we're holding our envelopes, and then we opened after that. And we opened at the exact same time and waited until we both had our envelope out to read it at the same time.

Marcus: I'm getting anxious like thinking about again and then you kind of open your own and then look and see, and then looking at hers to make sure it says the same thing. And she's looking at mine and it feels like tons of time is . . .

Chelse: It was silent because we saw each other's and then just kept looking back and forth, back and forth between each other's papers to make sure it said the same thing.

Marcus: And then we just kind of screamed out.

Chelse: You screamed out where you're going.

Dr. Chan: So where are you going?

Marcus: We're staying at Utah.

Chelse: Yeah. We're staying at University of Utah. So we kept glancing back and forth, back and forth, and finally Marcus just goes, "Utah!" He just screams it.

Marcus: And then my mom is like, "Haa! Haa!"

Chelse: And then his mom starts freaking out, just screaming with joy.

Dr. Chan: That's a new behavior for them?

Chelse: No.

Marcus: That's pretty normal.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Chelse: She's a pretty loud person. You'll love her. Yeah. So she just was screaming on the video. You can hear her above everyone, just going nuts.

Dr. Chan: So how does it feel? I mean honestly like, you know?

Marcus: I would say the post-match hangover, it was very real for us. Like for two days we just kind of like were recluse and just like hang out with each other and just kind of thought about how the future is going to be. Obviously, I'm excited, but you're like you're mourning, because it's so much buildup and you spent so much time thinking about what would it be like to . . .

Dr. Chan: You spent 20 grand flying around this big country of ours.

Chelse: Yeah.

Marcus: What would it be like here and what would it be like there, and I really like them, but I like this about this program. And so it's like this, for us anyway, for me it was like a lot of mourning all the possibilities that now are no longer possibilities. Even though at the same time being excited for where we're going.

Chelse: Yeah. And we talked about this. Like we always talked about no matter what that envelope says I think we're going to be excited, we're going to be disappointed, we're going to be sad, we're going to be afraid. Like it's just so many emotions, so we really did become recluses for the next three days and just kind of were together. We wanted to just be together and process what had happened and like wrap our . . . because the whole time we were in limbo for the past several months not knowing what our future would look like or what our plans, and that was hard for me being a planner. So we just kind of wrapped our head around what was coming, yeah.

Dr. Chan: I assume the program has reached out to you and welcomed you, congratulated you.

Marcus: Yeah. They've been amazing the whole time.

Chelse: They've been amazing. And I mean especially, yeah, both of our programs here have just been so good to both of us. They've been so supportive of us as a couple, and so they reached out and were great. And then some of the programs that we loved, that we weren't going to also reached out, and so it was this weird bittersweet emotion of like saying they're happy for you but disappointed. And so it was this weird catchall, where you're so excited, but then you're also like saying goodbye for possibilities that you had to explore for the past few months. And that's how everybody feels no matter what. It's so exciting and so wonderful, and then like kind of sad all at the same time. But yeah, we were so happy.

Dr. Chan: Did any of your friends matched into Utah programs with you, or is it brand new, you're going to have a brand new set of friends next year, co-residents?

Chelse: Well, I got super lucky. So one of my . . . I take it back. One of my really good friends who's also doing OB, she matched here as well. And the U's never taken two residents, so we saw each other from across the room and we're looking at each other and like, "Where are you going?" And we both pointed down to the ground and then we just like jumped over tables and people and just ran together and started hugging. So one of my co-residents is one of my closest friends from our class.

Dr. Chan: That's great.

Chelse: That's pretty amazing.

Marcus: Yeah. There's a few.

Chelse: There's a few.

Marcus: So I'm doing the internal medicine first year here, and there's quite a few classmates from Utah as well. And then there's five of us total that matched into the Utah Anesthesia Program, which is it's a lot more than usual.

Dr. Chan: Five internal?

Marcus: So five for anesthesia.

Dr. Chan: Five for anesthesia. How many spots for anesthesia?

Marcus: There's 14 or 15.

Dr. Chan: Okay, so almost a third. That's pretty impressive.

Chelse: Yeah. There was a huge proportion of our class this year though too who did anesthesia. It was a popular year.

Dr. Chan: Amazing, that's great.

Chelse: Yeah, so we're happy. And it's fine because we're staying and our family is close so that's really convenient. And then it's also sad because some of our really close friends are leaving, and we experience that when all of his classmates left for residency, like they're leaving and we're staying because he had to finish the year with me. So it kind of feels like that, again, but exciting because you're moving on to residency, which is an all new beast in and of itself.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And I assume you've gotten your contracts.

Chelse: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: I remember when I got my first contract, I was like, "Wow, this is a really long document." I've never made that much money before. I've never signed anything like that before.

Marcus: The positive number. Oh, that's good.

Chelse: Oh, my gosh, yeah. We're so excited.

Marcus: That's new to our bank account.

Chelse: It's very new to our bank account, so yeah. I know, it's exciting and we're just ready. We feel like we survived the pre-med course a little bit together, we survived med school together, and now it's just like we're very ready for the next step.

Dr. Chan: When does the next step start?

Marcus: Well, step three is . . .

Chelse: Oh, yeah, step three.

Marcus: We're actually going to prep for a step together.

Chelse: Yeah, we do. We still got to prep for a board. We'll see how we do. We both start orientation like around June 12th or so, and then our start date is June 24th.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Wow. It's happening so fast.

Chelse: I know, and that's why it really does feel surreal. Like we think back, I remember when you called him so vividly and then his white coat. And then when you called me and then my white coat, like these huge milestones, it's crazy to think that I mean for him that was almost five years ago.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Just to watch you progress and learn and grow into your roles and I'm just excited you're going to stay around, because I'm going to run into you, you know, because I wander around a lot.

Chelse: Yeah. I'll see you on the second floor.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. I'm wandering the hospital all the time, and, you know, you guys will be in and out. I think your hours will probably get much worse.

Chelse: Yes. Yeah, we're ready.

Marcus: To be expected.

Chelse: Yeah. It's weird because we're equal parts excited and terrified, because you know there's a whole other level of responsibility. So that's scary, but at the same time you can't stay a med student, like you're very ready to move on to the next step.

Dr. Chan: Cool. Well, we'll have to have you come back and get little updates and see how like intern year is going.

Chelse: We'll have more wrinkles and gray circles, and grays, and we'll let you know.

Dr. Chan: But have more babies named after you because you helped birth them. Little Chelse babies running around.

Chelse: I know. Hopefully, I get to like birth them on my birthday. I mean it's going to be awesome. I'm so excited.

Marcus: Because you know you'll be working on your birthday.

Chelse: I know, for sure.

Dr. Chan: And then Marcus will be intubating people and bringing people back to life. You know, powerful drugs, yeah.

Chelse: We are hopeful that like one day when I'm in GYN or oncology surgery, he'll be the anesthesia resident and I can . . .

Marcus: She really looks forward to telling me to . . .

Chelse: Table up, table up, table down. Anesthesia, wake up, do your job.

Dr. Chan: The person's moving. What's going on?

Chelse: I know. Do your job. I think it will be fun to like be together.

Marcus: She really looks forward to that.

Dr. Chan: Sparking out some worries for Marcus there.

Chelse: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: Well, I'm excited for you guys. This is exciting, so this is great.

Chelse: We're excited. We feel really grateful.

Marcus: Yeah. We feel really lucky to be in a great program and together.

Chelse: We're great people. Like we know exactly what we're getting into and we're so excited about it.

Dr. Chan: Cool. All right. Well, thanks for coming on.

Marcus: Thanks.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school. A production of the Scope Health Science Radio online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What group hacks are made amongst classmates while on any lab? Why is it important to continue the study habits you developed for yourself when dating a classmate? How do you navigate the possibility of not couples matching? And finally, what are some of the things to compromise on as a couple when submitting your rank list? Today on "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," I interview Taylor and Doug, successful couples match and recent graduates here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world, this is "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with your host, the dean of admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: All right. We now have another awesome podcast with a couple that went through the match together. Taylor and Doug, how do you feel?

Doug: Good.

Taylor: We feel good.

Dr. Chan: All right. So let's start at the very beginning. How did you two meet? What was your first memory of each other?

Taylor: Well . . . So we didn't know each other before medical school. We met each other just in class. I don't know if I have a specific memory of you.

Doug: I mean, I knew of her because I actually knew her roommate in undergrad and . . .

Taylor: That's right.

Dr. Chan: Ooh.

Doug: But we, like, didn't actually know each other in undergrad.

Taylor: Yeah. Douglas was part of, like, the housing. Like, he was an RA just across the street, and I was roommates with my RA. So he was kind of in that crowd. But . . .

Dr. Chan: But you guys never met?

Doug: Ah-a.

Taylor: Well, I was kind of a nerd. I spent a lot of time studying and . . .

Doug: She spent a lot of time in her room and never came out. I was in her apartment, but I'd never had met her before.

Dr. Chan: This is a great story. Did you see pictures of her . . .?

Doug: No.

Dr. Chan: . . . in the apartment?

Doug: Ah-a.

Taylor: Probably. It's, like, I don't know.

Doug: Oh, maybe. I don't know.

Dr. Chan: And the name Taylor, you could have been a boy. It's kind of a . . . No offense. It's kind of an androgynous name.

Taylor: There's no offense there. Like . . .

Dr. Chan: But Taylor Swift has done great things for you guys. She has really reclaimed it for the . . .

Taylor: She has.

Dr. Chan: . . .women in the world so . . .

Taylor: So, yeah, I guess we knew of each other, but I didn't know you until medical school.

Dr. Chan: All right. So when did you two start, when did you get together, first year or second year?

Taylor: So we were, like, we were just close friends all through first year until, we made it to the second half of the year. We started dating around April.

Dr. Chan: And this would have been April of 2014.

Taylor: 2015.

Dr. Chan: 2015. Okay.

Taylor: So three years.

Dr. Chan: All right. Sorry. Yeah. Wow.

Taylor: And then here we are moving to Albuquerque together in . . .

Doug: Oh, you're not supposed to reveal.

Taylor: Oh, sorry.

Doug: Oh, we were supposed to lead up to that moment.

Taylor: Sorry, everybody. Sorry, everybody.

Dr. Chan: It's okay.

Taylor: Retract. Retract.

Dr. Chan: When she said Albuquerque, she meant anywhere from Boston to Los Angeles and in between. Okay. So you met first year, got to know each other, got together April of your first year?

Taylor: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right. How did it feel to have, like, a classmate in medicine with you and be dating them? I mean, what was that like?

Doug: Well, we were very hesitant in the beginning because I, personally, had made a rule.

Taylor: It's actually exploitative. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So let's talk about this. Taylor looks very excited right now. Her eyes are lighting up.

Doug: I made a rule first year, no dating in the class.

Taylor: Like he had people making pacts with him.

Dr. Chan: Oh, I've heard rumors about this pact. All right. So . . .

Doug: I did.

Dr. Chan: . . . you had this personal revelation, personal code of conduct. Where did this come from, Doug?

Doug: Just, I don't know, talking with other people that have been through and, like, I just thought it would, potentially, there's a lot of potential for messiness, you know. You're in class together for four hours a day, every day, first and second year, and there's, like . . . I don't know. Just, yeah, I made that rule for myself and . . .

Taylor: And multiple other people in the class.

Doug: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So, like you said, it was a pact, so did you make people sign, like, a document or is this on social media . . .?

Doug: No.

Dr. Chan: . . .or we're talking, like, real finger blood test or . . .?

Taylor: It was just . . .

Dr. Chan: . . . or pinky swear? What are we talking about?

Doug: No. I think it was actually in anatomy lab that I was, like, kind of close with a few people in anatomy lab and we kind of made just a verbal pact not to, like, date in the class. And the funny thing is I'm pretty sure everyone that did the pact ended up dating someone in the class, actually.

Dr. Chan: You can't stop love. You just have to protect it.

Taylor: Yeah. And you're right. There you go.

Dr. Chan: All right. So, Taylor, when you heard about this pact . . . I mean, when did you hear about this or is this after you started dating or. . .?

Taylor: No. I heard about it. He probably tried to make it with me in the car.

Doug: And we followed it.

Dr. Chan: So when you had this pact, you go, no, this is stupid.

Taylor: Well, I mean, I was also not planning on . . .

Doug: She agreed.

Taylor: . . . dating. I probably agreed. Yeah. I probably did.

Doug: You did agree.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, that wasn't necessarily what I was here for or, like, doing here. And then . . . I don't know. Obviously, we broke the pact.

Doug: It took some convincing.

Dr. Chan: So was your relationship, like, secretive for a while? I mean, did you not tell people?

Doug: I wouldn't say secretive. We just didn't announce it to the world. Like, some . . .

Dr. Chan: Did you just . . . Okay. Go on.

Doug: . . . some people were, like, surprised when they found out. But, like, it's not, like, we were trying to hide it. But we don't . . . I don't know. I guess you could say we're a little more private. We don't, like, post on social media or, like, I don't know, make it super known or, like. . .

Dr. Chan: Would you sit by each other in class?

Doug: No.

Taylor. We didn't.

Doug: We . . . I mean, in the first year, you kind of, like, establish where you sit, and that's kind of where you sit for the rest. . .

Dr. Chan: In the zone.

Doug: Yeah.

Taylor: Yes.

Dr. Chan: Just like how you have a friend zone.

Doug: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: Both of you moved out of each other's friend zone, is it?

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Taylor. Yeah. And then you move out of the friend zone. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right. So . . .

Taylor: So . . .

Dr. Chan: Okay. Go on.

Taylor: Oh, sorry. To kind of your question of, like, dating someone within, like, medicine and it was kind of easy for us because we didn't really know any other way, so we kind of both knew that we had to study as much as we did or, you know, clinic as long as we did. But we never knew each other before that so it would never really, it didn't really change. It wasn't a big change, so it was pretty easy.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Cool.

Doug: It did take some convincing.

Taylor: Oh, in the very beginning. I thought . . . Like, we've covered that part of it.

Doug: She was very hesitant in the beginning.

Dr. Chan: Okay. But using the Doug charm . . .

Doug: I did.

Dr. Chan: And you went over. All right. So, you know, you started dating in April of your first year, what did you guys do during that summer? Did you stick around and then Salt Lake or. . .?

Taylor: Yeah. We both did the research . . .

Dr. Chan: MSRP?

Taylor: MSRP. Yeah.

Dough: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor: Yeah. We both were doing that. If I remember correctly, I worked a lot more than you did that summer but . . .

Doug: You did. You did.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. All right. And what did you do your projects on?

Taylor: So I was . . . I did mine on, it was a project over at the pediatrics department and pharmacology. We were looking at, like, IV and antibiotics in diabetic, Type 1 diabetic children and, like, if they had higher rates of AKIs, so it was more of a chart review. But . . . Yeah. And he worked on one. He. . .

Doug: I did brown fat and metabolic syndrome.

Taylor: Yeah. And it was one that he had been working on . . .

Doug: Prior to med school.

Taylor: . . . in, prior to med school.

Dr. Chan: And then you got . . . It sounds like you had a stipend with that program.

Taylor: We did. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Did you get the same stipend?

Doug: I think everyone does. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay. So even though the perception was Doug didn't work as hard. That's just [inaudible 00:07:17].

Taylor: I guess if it . . . Yeah.

Doug: I worked hard.

Taylor: You worked hard. You just didn't have to go in as much as I did.

Dr. Chan: All right. So second year rolls around, how was it being a couple and, you know, doing step one prep and not? How did that go? Did you study with each other? Did you quiz each other? Did you share materials? Like, how did that . . .?

Taylor: So I guess we didn't . . . We don't really study very well together as far as, like . . .

Doug: Uh-uh.

Dr. Chan: Oh, what happens when you study together?

Doug: Well . . .

Taylor: We learn very differently.

Doug: Through first and also second year, we kind of . . . Like, she had friends that she studied with and I had friends that I studied with. But me personally, I kind of studied maybe with someone in the same room but not necessarily with that person. That's kind of how I study, but you study, like, collaboratively, I would . . .

Taylor: Yeah. But I mix with . . .

Doug: I don't know.

Taylor: Yeah. But, I mean, the closer you get to step one, I think the more you have to do just individual studying. I think the group study kind of loses its value after some time. So we would sit next to each other and study, but we'd never really . . .

Doug: Like, quiz each other.

Taylor: . . . quiz each other or talk about it.

Dr. Chan: Was that time pretty stressful, step one, kind of leading to . . .?

Taylor: Yeah.

Doug: Oh, yeah.

Taylor: Yeah. It's pretty bad.

Dr. Chan: Was it the most stressful during med school or it was up there?

Taylor: It was up there.

Doug: I would say, yes.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right.

Taylor: It was up there.

Doug: Yeah. Definitely for me.

Taylor: But it was . . . I mean, we got through it. Some people were getting full year so . . .

Dr. Chan: All right. So before med school started, if I had asked you what kind of doctor do you want to be, what would you have said and what did you end up choosing and why?

Taylor: I would have said pediatrics, and I'm choosing pediatrics.

Dr. Chan: Why?

Taylor: I like children. Both of my parents are public educators. I think it's kind of in me to be a teacher at a, you know, educator and I think that I deal well with children. I don't mind dealing with parents so, like, I just . . . I don't know. I like kids.

Dr. Chan: When you did your pediatrics rotation, did that just, like, everything . . .?

Taylor: I tried to keep an open mind during third year but, I mean, it was just really . . .

Dr. Chan: Was it just loving pediatrics so much or was is it disliking other things, or how . . .?

Taylor: Both. Yeah. Disliking everything else so you might pick peds.

Dr. Chan: And what kind of rotations did you do on your pediatrics rotation?

Taylor: So we all do a, it's called Glasgow. It's, like, a inpatient rotation where you kind of deal with just regular pediatric issues. So I did that. And then I also was on the GI service.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay. A lot of poop.

Taylor: A lot of poop. And then the GI service here also runs the liver team, and we also have patients with, like, anorexia and eating disorders and the disorders that come on so you get to see not just poop but there's poop. Yeah. So those were kind of my . . . And then outpatient and then you go to the, well, baby nurseries, so you kind of get a . . .

Dr. Chan: And of those different experiences, Taylor, which one did you enjoy the most? I mean, if you . . .

Taylor: The inpatient.

Dr. Chan: . . . if you can kind of, like, project forward in your career, do you see yourself working in a hospital or a clinic or . . .?

Taylor: I think I'll be a hospitalist.

Dr. Chan: . . . Or, like, just specialize, I guess or . . .

Taylor: Right now, I would probably just be a hospitalist. They are . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. What attracts you to hospitalists.

Taylor: I like the schedule, kind of being able to see patients not really on my own time but kind of, like . . . Like, something I don't like about clinic is that feeling of, like, someone's waiting on me all of the time and I'm, like, behind and . . . I just. . . I can't deal with it.

Dr. Chan: You start avoiding exam room seven . . .

Taylor: I can't.

Dr. Chan: . . . because they've been in there too long and [inaudible 00:10:49].

Taylor: Yes. Like, I can't go in there because they've been in there for 20 minutes. So I like that part about inpatient medicine, where it's, like, acute problems. You know, a little bit sicker kids but you can kind of see them, spend more time with them, you know, if you need to or spend less time and check on them multiple times throughout the day. So I probably will do that. They're changing the pediatrics hospitalists right now to where that it's probably going to be fellowshipped after 2019, which right now it's an RA. Now you can go into it right after a residency.

Dr. Chan: How long a fellowship?

Taylor: I think it's two years.

Dr. Chan: So they're going from zero to two years?

Taylor: I think it's two but . . .

Dr. Chan: That's gutsy.

Taylor: Don't quote me. Well, actually, you are going to quote me on this thing but . . .

Dr. Chan: No worries. Yes. It's a different Taylor.

Taylor: Yeah. I need to look into it more because I'm just not sure how that's actually going to affect employment going forward. Like, how are hospitals going to . . . Like, in this time period where I'll be graduating, you know, from residency in 2021, like, what is that going to look like for the field of hospitalists?

Dr. Chan: You want to hear my prediction?

Taylor: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: That the old grandfather or grandmother, all the older physicians into it and the rising generation will just be screwed. Yup.

Taylor: Yeah. And so . . .

Dr. Chan: So they're require it for your gen . . . Yeah.

Taylor: For me, because I'm not graduating before 2019. And I think that's probably true so I'm probably looking at a fellowship somewhere.

Dr. Chan: When I say screwed, I mean that the rising generation will have additional educational opportunities. They'll become more proficient in the arts of being a hospitalist as well as caring, treating multiple diagnoses, you know, blah blah blah. Okay.

Taylor: But it's just interesting that they're doing it because they're not . . .

Dr. Chan: I would think they would create a one-year fellowship.

Taylor: Yeah. Maybe it wasn't . . .

Dr. Chan: [inaudible 00:12:26] It's, like, almost doubling the residency.

Taylor: Maybe it's one year.

Doug: But how long are the fellowships for peds.

Taylor: Three years. Mostly.

Dr. Chan: But usually, that's, like, a year or two of research build into it?

Taylor: Yeah.

Doug: Oh, is it? Okay.

Taylor: And it's just interesting that they're doing it because pediatric residencies are very similar to medicine residencies, in that, it's very impatient heavy. We do basically three years of impatient with, you know, a half day clinic a week. Like, it's not . . . Like, I'm not going to be able to be prepared for that. But I'm just . . .

Dr. Chan: So let's say it is . . .

Taylor: . . . I'm interested to see how it's really going to change the trend.

Dr. Chan: Let's say it does turn out to be a two-year fellowship, at that time, do you just, like, well, maybe you should just do a specialty, you know, because those individuals have a lot of, they do a lot of hospice work themselves?

Taylor: They do. Yeah. They do.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Like a GI service.

Taylor: The GIs, yeah, I mean, they can do . . . The GI actually is nice because they can do inpatient, clinic, and then procedures as well. They kind of get a mixture of all three so . . .

Dr. Chan: Oh, it's looks a future discussion for you and Doug. All right.

Doug: All right.

Taylor: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So, Doug, what kind of doctor were you going to be?

Doug: So I also wanted to be a pediatrician coming into medical school. I had worked with kids before, like, mostly, like, adolescence and high school, kind of, like, I guess you could say, at-risk youth or whatever. But that made me think I wanted peds but I ended up picking child, well, psychiatry, probably child psychiatry.

Dr. Chan: A man after my own heart.

Doug: Because I love it. Exactly.

Dr. Chan: What did you like about child psychiatry compared to your pediatrics experience?

Doug: I think . . . I don't know. Just, like, the fact that, like, a lot of times in child's psyche, they don't, they're not where they are of their own accord, and that's common in peds, in general. But I think, like, psych, it takes that extra step of, like, getting to know them. Like, why are they there? Like, what happened to them? Like, not just physically but, like, emotionally and, like . . . I don't know. It just kind of, like, struck a chord with me that, you know, certain patients that you see remind you of maybe, like, my little brother or, you know, remind me that I could have been in that position just as easily as they are. And it also helped that I had great attendings. So, yeah, I really loved it, and I tried not to pass judgment until after I tried my pediatric rotation because I just had psychiatry first, of course. And I liked peds. I didn't have the best resident, necessarily, but it was still a good experience. But I think just overall, I kept going back to psychiatry, specifically child psychiatry.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. Let's talk about end of third year beginning of fourth year. What was your . . .? I mean, well, first of all, let me ask, when did the couples match idea start? I mean, did you start talking about that in third year or how far in advance was that on the radar?

Doug: Probably in third year.

Taylor: Third year.

Doug: I think you have to in third year, pretty much.

Taylor: Well . . .

Doug: Because you have to apply by the end of third year.

Taylor: Well, no.

Dr. Chan: You have to get your application. Yeah.

Taylor: Yeah. And . . .

Dr. Chan: So what was your strategy as a couple going into this match process?

Taylor: So we . . . First of all, you look at the list of programs that you can apply to you, and it's kind of intimidating. It's long. You don't really know how to narrow it, so the first strategy that we used to narrow was geographic. We wanted to be in the western half of the United States.

Dr. Chan: Why?

Taylor: I just think we're more . . .

Doug: We're just more West Coast people.

Taylor: West Coast people.

Doug: East Coast is . . .

Taylor: I don't know.

Dr. Chan: So both of your families are in Utah?

Taylor: Families are in Utah.

Doug: Yes.

Taylor: Like, I don't know. We just . . . That's what we decided.

Doug: I don't know. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So you make a list.

Taylor: We make a list.

Dr. Chan: Did Excel spreadsheet turn?

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Taylor: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Who owns this Excel?

Doug: She does.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So Taylor is in charge of Excel.

Taylor: My mom actually helped a lot too. She would kind of, started pulling in information because the other thing that, the problem with applying for residency is that schools are not transparent about, like, their requirements, so, like, what will actually get an interview somewhere. Like, I'm specifically talking about, like, scores, experiences, research, you know, how much research do you have. You don't really have that information of, like, the school will or will not interview you. So my mom tried to, like, build an Excel document that, like, said, this is what they say you should have for volunteer, and this is what you should say.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Taylor: It was very . . .

Dr. Chan: So your mom was trying to create, like, an algorithm?

Taylor: She was. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: You should maybe sell this.

Taylor: I know. I was thinking that.

Dr. Chan: I see a valuable piece of information.

Taylor: I know it was really nice of her. She spent a lot of time on it. And so then, I kind of took that. Because she went through a lot of hermeneuts so . . .

Dr. Chan: So she did that for you or both of you or how . . .?

Taylor: She did it for both of us.

Dr. Chan: Or did she do kind of, like, three separate, oh, this is Doug . . .

Taylor: It was like . . .

Dr. Chan: . . . and this is Taylor, and this is you guys combined or . . .?

Taylor: So she would, like, find a program and then, but she was, like, focused on pediatrics but then underneath in the next line on Excel, she'd write, like, for psychiatry, this is what they say. So she was doing a lot of work.

Dr. Chan: Was she doing, like . . . Was it just off the internet or she'd go on different websites and . . .?

Taylor: Yeah. Just off the . . .

Dr. Chan: . . . I mean, kind of aggregating it on herself?

Taylor: Yeah.

Doug: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. I guess I should say that my mom loves to, like, surf the web. Like, that's what she does at night. Like my dad watches TV, and she has her computer out, and she's, like, surfing. Like, she loves to look things up and . . . So for her, it was kind of, she just worked on it.

Dr. Chan: So she's going to listen to this podcast?

Taylor: She probably is.

Dr. Chan: That's cool.

Taylor: Yeah. So she helped a lot. She put together this really nice document. And then I kind of, from there, we looked at the, you know, the schools that she, or the programs that she had put together and we kind of pulled . . . I can't even remember how many we applied for, but . . .

Dr. Chan: So you targeted western schools, schools in the west of the United States.

Taylor: Yeah. The farthest east that we interviewed was in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Everything else was west of that.

Doug: But we did apply, like, East Coast, still, some. Didn't we?

Taylor: A little bit.

Doug: I mean, we applied broadly just because we are a couples matching and we had to, kind of.

Taylor: Yeah. But it was definitely focused on . . .

Dr. Chan: How much did you set aside? How much money did this cost? Because the more programs you apply to and the more you interview, you know, all of that stuff.

Taylor: I think that our initial U.S. application was, it was under 1,000. I think it was 8 . . .

Dr. Chan: Each or together?

Taylor: Oh, each.

Doug: Each. Yeah.

Taylor. I think I almost spent, like, 800 maybe on U.S. or . . . I wish I could remember the exact numbers. And then, I also did not keep a very good track of how much it cost just for, like, interviewing. I just kind of . . . At that point, you just . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. You just go.

Taylor: . . . have to go.

Doug: You don't want to make yourself more depressed.

Taylor: Yeah. So, you don't . . . I didn't keep . . .

Doug: People always ask me how much to set aside, like, third years, and I have a hard time because I don't know anyone that, like, actually kept track. But . . .

Taylor: I'm sure there are people in our class that did keep . . .

Doug: There probably are . . .

Taylor: . . . track.

Doug: But I don't know. I think 10 grand is a safe number.

Taylor: Yeah. I don't think I spent more than that. That's for sure.

Dr. Chan: Is that American dollars? That's a lot then.

Doug: Yeah.

Taylor: Fair enough.

Doug: It is a lot money.

Taylor: It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah.

Doug: And that's couples matching so we potentially interviewed at more places than if we were just singles match so . . .

Dr. Chan: So would you go out together and do interviews or just kind of separate or . . .? And . . .

Taylor: So that would have been ideal but the way it kind of works is you get an e-mail from the program, and you set it up so that it, like, sends a text to your phone because you don't want to miss it if you're not a good Wi-fi or . . . And you e-mail back immediately. So the hard part was if we got, you know, if I got an email from a program before he did, I would just set up my interview because I didn't want to lose my date. There were two or three we were able to coordinate together but for the most part, you just kind of do it. We were . . .

Doug: But they were pretty good about trying to work with us and, you know . . .

Taylor: But some of them weren't either . . .

Dough: Yeah. That's true.

Taylor: . . . and so we were just kind of . . .

Dr. Chan: So you go out and started interviewing these different programs and, you know, and I hesitate to call it this, but it's like a game, right?

Doug: It is.

Taylor: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: You interview with these programs and then, you know, then, like, afterwards there's this bizarre ritual I've detected, where, you know, thank you e-mails or thank you notes or I really like your program. Like, walk me through that, especially as a couple. Did you kind of coordinate where you kind of started responding towards people or how did that go?

Doug: No. I mean, so one of our . . . Can I say his name on here? I don't know. One of our, one of the people advising us.

Dr. Chan: Sure.

Doug: . . . basically coached our entire class into what to do, basically, just because . . .

Dr. Chan: Was it Dr. Stevenson?

Doug: Yeah.

Taylor: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: Oh, that's fine.

Doug: Oh, okay. I don't know. I don't know.

Dr. Chan: I thought you were going to go someplace other . . .

Doug: No.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Dr. Benjamin. Yeah.

Taylor: Even I wasn't sure where you were going to head with this.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Dr. Stevenson. Yeah.

Doug: Dr. Stevenson is amazing. I love you.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. I hope he's listening, too.

Taylor: Wait. I may have to [inaudible 00:21:14].

Doug: Shout out to him. So he basically coached the entire class into how to, basically, tread these waters, basically. And it is a game, you know. The programs play the game, and we play the game, and you just have to be aware. So basically, he said, you know, send a thank you to everyone. Regardless of whether you like them, just do it. You know, you don't have to and . . .

Dr. Chan: A thank you email or a thank you notes or, like . . .

Doug: Either or.

Taylor: I would just stick to email.

Doug: Emails are just usually easier.

Dr. Chan: What did you guys use?

Taylor: We did email.

Doug: I mean, I did thank you cards to [inaudible 00:21:45] because I was there.

Taylor: Oh, [inaudible 00:21:47] rotation?

Doug: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: The only danger of email, in my experience is sometimes if you start cutting and pasting, you send the wrong email to the wrong program. And now that's we're done.

Doug: Yes. So you have to be very good about that.

Dr. Chan: Very circumspect when you're filling that email.

Taylor: And I don't even know how much it really means. It's, like you said, it's a game we kind of all do it, but I don't know . . .

Dr. Chan: Well, I've talked to other people who've gone through the couples match, and I'm very curious, did you start, like, invoking the other person? Like, saying, hey, my significant other or my girlfriend or my boyfriend, my . . . Are they . . .? They're interested in the peds or psychiatry program? Did you start invoking that or did you keep it cloistered chest? Or how did you do that?

Taylor: The only instance that we did do that was to get more interviews. So there were several programs that, like, I got an interview, or you got an interview that then we would e-mail and say, like, hey, my significant other has an interview there. But as far as our thank you letters . . .

Doug: We did.

Taylor: At the very end but not right after the interview.

Doug: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: How did the people respond to that? Did you felt that you were granted additional interviews because of the other person?

Doug: There are some specific cases that, yeah. That was definitely it.

Dr. Chan: Did they come out and say it or did they . . . or was it just kind of, hmm, it's probably lower. It's hard to tell.

Taylor: So I think, like, one example was Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's a Michigan State program. He got an interview, and I didn't, and I think they probably didn't give me one because they thought that some Utah girl is not going to make the trip to . . . Dr. Chan: Grand Rapids.

Taylor: Grand Rapids because I think that part of this whole process is very geographical. I think people . . . This was the same way, I even said it in the beginning, that's how I started, people, like, people from the Midwest are going to stay in the Midwest.

Dr. Chan: I mean, like, we have finite amount of intermix states.

Taylor: Yeah. And they're, like, we have the . . .

Dr. Chan: You know, and this person that's coming out here, they just want to check out the rapids and find out if they're grand or . . .

Doug: Yeah. Exactly.

Taylor: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So as soon as I emailed and said, hey, you know, my significant other was granted an interview with your psychiatry program, immediately they were like, oh, you're willing to come? Sure. So we actually did get some, you know, additional interviews. Other ones just kind of ignored. It's fair. It's fine. And then, Doug was saying, at the end of the interview season, you kind of try to send a wrap-up email. So kind of in the same, like, thank you e-mail realm of, like, a wrap-up, like, hey, now that it's over, remember me right before rank lists are due. And in that case, we did talk about our significant other in the respective programs and so . . .

Doug: And said, like, we both really liked so and so place, you know.

Taylor: We loved this city and, you know, we would love to be here in June or something. So we did mention each other at the end but . . .

Doug: And it's hard to know whether or not that helped but . . .

Taylor: We don't know.

Doug: I mean, we couples match so there's that. But, like, it's hard to know whether or not saying, oh, my significant other also is interviewing. We both really want to come out here. In my mind, if I was a program director, program, yeah, I would think that that would be a good thing. But that's just my personal opinion, so it's hard to say or hard to know.

Dr. Chan: As you went through the process, I mean, there's obviously, in any relationship, there's always kind of, like, give and take, compromise, negotiation on some level. When you started coming up with your joint rank list, what we're kind of the discussion on it? What were you two focusing on and what did you feel like, you know, like, compromise on them on some level?

Doug: Well, there's definitely geographic, and then there's definitely, like, obviously quality of programs. Of course, there's some that are better than others. And then just kind of, like, if, like, she got more interviews than I did and so that played into it as well.

Taylor: Yeah. And we had to kind of figure out how we were going to navigate that. So, like, the programs that we interviewed at together obviously go to the top of the list but then how do you rank the rest and how do you make those permutations work?

Dr. Chan: Well, how did you do that? I mean, what was kind of . . .? Like, did you have, like, a little algorithm in your mind or . . .? Yeah.

Taylor: Yeah. Most of it was, like, geographical, or as in, like, how close the program that I interviewed at would be to the one that we would rank next for him. So one of it was just, like, vicinity to each other. I don't know. Our rank list was long and convoluted . . .

Dr. Chan: How many did you . . .? Numbers.

Dough: Oh, man.

Taylor: I . . .

Dr. Chan: People have been quoting in the hundreds.

Doug: Yeah. Hundreds.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Doug: Easy. I mean, so . . .

Taylor: It seems like it would be in hundreds. This is what I mean.

Doug: . . . so we basically made our individual lists, and then we came together and said, okay, where, like, where can we be flexible? Like, where are we willing to go? And we want to rank such and such at this place and. . . Basically, like, with the help of Dr. Stevenson, who helped a lot, basically, we were able to couples and singles match, essentially, as a way to, basically, do your ranking so that you do both.

Dr. Chan: How did that make you feel that there is a possibility that you could have not couples matched or the one of you that possibly didn't match?

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, to be honest . . .

Dr. Chan: How do you navigate that? I don't know . . .

Taylor: To be honest, going into match day, that is, we were kind of both prepared for that. And very thankful that we don't have to deal with what that would have looked like.

Dr. Chan: To be geographically separated or . . .

Taylor: Right. Right. But we were . . . It was scary. We were both nervous, and we thought. . . The way our rank list played out, like, we ranked places where we would not be together, so that was always a chance. Like, if it's on your rank list, there's a chance that that's where you'll go. And so we . . .

Dr. Chan: Is that something that, again, like, is that something you would talk about all of the time or it was a too kind of a sensitive area you just can't dwell on it too long.

Doug: No. We definitely . . . You have to, like . . . I don't know. I feel, like, if you can't talk about it, you probably shouldn't be couples matching. But we basically talked about it a lot, and kind of said, okay, obviously we want to be here in, like, together at the same place but if that's not possible then, for example . . . I don't know. And I always like to forget this.

Taylor: Like, I just, for instance, like, I got an interview at Omaha, and he didn't. But there were multiple programs like in the Midwest or even, you know, Utah kind of, like, a circle around Omaha that would have worked if I had . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. I drive to Omaha all the time from Salt Lake City.

Doug: Yeah. Exactly.

Taylor: Yeah. See. See.

Dr. Chan: I'm being very sarcastic.

Taylor: It's so close, but it's so close. But, I mean, like, that was, like, an example of, like . . .

Dr. Chan: Oh, I see. Yeah.

Taylor: . . . we had, like, that program where we had to figure out, you know, we had to, like, you know, face the reality that that could happen if we ranked it. So . . .

Doug: Basically, we just made it high on the list if they were, like, geographically closer together. So maybe, like, Utah and California versus Utah and Omaha, you know. That the closer it would be, you know, higher up and then the ones not so much, that would be lower down. But that's basically how we . . .

Taylor: Yeah. And to be . . .

Doug: . . . basically, made our list.

Taylor: . . . to be quite honest, I cannot recreate the list for you right now. It was very long, and I don't know what . . . We made a decision at the time, and I can't remember whether . . .

Dr. Chan: That was my next question. I want to hear what was numbers, like, 10 through 50.

Taylor: Yeah. Exactly, right?

Dr. Chan: It's just a blur of clicking boxes and . . .

Taylor: No idea. No idea. They were decisions that we were very open with each other at the time, but at this point, it don't matter so . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So you're going in, and it sounds like almost ready to do the long distance thing?

Taylor: Yeah. We were.

Dr. Chan: Have you ever been in a long distance relationship before?

Taylor: I have not.

Doug: I have.

Dr. Chan: Okay. And obviously, it didn't work out because you're now . . .

Doug: Obviously.

Dr. Chan: . . . with Taylor. And so, yeah, it sounds like that was pretty stressed provoking, a stressful little thing.

Taylor: It was. We were . . .

Dough. It was.

Taylor: And I think that was probably true for all five of the couples that were in the room last month. And it was . . . Yeah. We were very nervous that that's what we were going to open.

Dr. Chan: Would your families kind of talk to you about this a lot or would it . . .? Okay. Did they understand? I mean, I think it's hard for people . . . I mean, that's one of the goals of doing this podcast is for different people to listen to it and understand it. But I get the sense from people who are not in medicine or medical education, it's hard to conceptualize what the match is and then throw on top of it, what this thing called the couples match is. Is there . . .?

Taylor: Right. And I mean, both of our families were involved, I think. I had . . . we both had trips where our parents went with us instead of each other because, you know, they had a little more flexibility. And so, I don't mean to say that they didn't understand it completely but a lot . . .

Doug: But they didn't and . . .

Taylor: . . . a lot of the decisions were between me and him, and they were just as happy for us, I think, as we were on match day so . . .

Doug: I mean, I think they knew that we were trying to go to the same place but as far as details, it's kind of hard to explain when we hardly . . . I mean, we understood it but, like, still . . .

Taylor: It's very complex.

Doug: It's very complex. Yeah. So it's kind of hard to explain to people outside of the process but essentially, it's, like, oh, we make a list, and there's also a possibility that we go in separate places, but that's just kind of the nature of the game so . . . But, yeah, I think they understood as much as they could.

Dr. Chan: So going into the Monday was that . . .? Tell me what happened on Monday when you found out that you matched.

Taylor: Oh, we were so relieved.

Dr. Chan: So what were you doing? Were you checking it together?

Taylor: Yeah. We checked it together and then we . . .

Doug: We were.

Taylor: . . . got our friends together and we went to . . .

Doug: Celebrated.

Taylor: We went to lunch.

Dr. Chan: So you found out that you matched . . .?

Doug: Aha.

Taylor: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: . . . but not where you matched . . .?

Taylor: Yeah. So you just get an email that said that you, congratulations, you matched. So we . . . Opposite of that would be you get an email that says, you did not match, and then you would enter the SOAP, which I'm sure you've probably talked about on this podcast . . .

Dr. Chan: No. No. We can talk a little bit.

Taylor: . . . before but . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Let's talk about the SOAP. So it's sounds like . . . I get the sense, like, that you were prepared to SOAP it?

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Taylor: Yeah. We were.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay. And so what was this SOAP? Yeah.

Doug: So the SOAP is basically if you don't match, there's programs that . . .

Dr. Chan: Supplemental . . .

Taylor: Offer Acceptance Programs.

Dr. Chan: Yup. Supplemental Offer Acceptance Programs.

Taylor: S-O-A-P.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Subjective Objective Assessment Plan. That's what the SOAP meant.

Doug: Oh, yeah.

Taylor: The SOAP not . . .

Dr. Chan: Oh, it's SOAP and medicine.

Doug: Exactly. It is.

Taylor: There is so many acronyms.

Doug: So basically, like, yeah, if . . . And I actually found this out, probably not that long ago, that programs actually have to opt into the SOAP. I had just assumed that programs that didn't fill automatically went into the SOAP because that kind of made sense to me. But apparently, yeah, like. . .

Dr. Chan: It's a free country. God bless U.S.A.

Doug: Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Chan: People can think whatever they want.

Dr. Chan: Anyways. So basically, if you don't match in to, you know, what you wanted to, the SOAP opens for you and you can, essentially, reapply for any program that did not fill their spots. And you're not limited to, like, the specialty you originally chose or anything. You just kind of hope you get into a residency program that didn't fill, basically.

Dr. Chan: So you go from that possibility to matching. It must have been, like . . .

Taylor: Yeah. Well, but I would . . .

Dr. Chan: Was it one of the most exhilarating moments of your life or . . .?

Doug: Yeah.

Taylor: It was very nice to get through this.

Dr. Chan: Did you not believe it at first? Did you . . .?

Taylor: We did not believe it at first but we . . . then we . . . but then we believed it. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: You hit the refresh several times, and it's, like, yeah.

Doug: Because you know what time it's supposed to come in, so you keep hitting refresh up until MNA and then . . .

Taylor: Right. And I think just because of, you know, we were couples matching and we knew that there were risks that we were taking, we were prepared for that. And then we didn't have to do it. So we had a nice Monday. And then a nice week.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Great Monday. The rest . . . All right. So walk me through it. So Friday, match day, both of your families are there. Ten o'clock you open the envelopes. You cut the ribbon. There are some speeches. What do you two do with the envelopes? Do you open it at the same time, or how did that unfold?

Doug: So we ended up . . . Yeah. I dragged my family over to her family's tables.

Dr. Chan: Your families weren't sitting together?

Doug: No. Well, they almost . . .

Taylor: They got there at different times.

Dr. Chan: They know you guys are . . .

Doug: They got there at different times.

Dr. Chan: . . together, right?

Doug: Yes. Of course.

Taylor: They do but . . . It wasn't . . .

Dr. Chan: And this is not the first time they've met?

Taylor: Stop. No. This is not reason.

Doug: No. No. No.

Taylor: No. No. This is not the reason.

Doug: I mean, there were couple that that happened. No. Well, it was very busy and, like, even, like, by the end, there was even, like . . .

Taylor: It was kind of a small room.

Doug: . . . a bunch of family standing in the pathway. Yeah. It's not . . .

Taylor: Well, my parents apparently got, they got there before I did and they got one of the last tables, so they just . . . It was just a . . .

Doug: First come, first served kind of thing. Anyways, so we went over, and we said, like, basically, yeah, let's open it together and then there was a nice video and . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. You guys made the video?

Doug: We did.

Taylor: We did.

Dr. Chan: And apparently, both of you were interviewed by the reporters.

Doug: We were.

Taylor: We were.

Doug: There was a news story.

Dr. Chan: Did you know that was going to happen ahead of time?

Taylor: We didn't know.

Doug: Not ahead of time.

Dr. Chan: Or did they kind of just, like, tracked you down and put, like, a microphone in your face?

Taylor: Yeah. I think my Mom was really friendly to the reporter and so then he, like . . .

Dr. Chan: Your mom . . . I love it. She . . .

Taylor: She, like, chatted . . .

Dr. Chan: She creates . . .

Taylor: She was chatting with one of them.

Doug: I didn't know that.

Dr. Chan: . . . Excel spreadsheets, Excels, and . . . so, you know, yeah, we should get your mom into, like . . .

Taylor: My mom should be on the podcast.

Dr. Chan: . . . Fortune 500 wife. Yeah. Get your mum in here. Yeah.

Taylor: She's superwoman.

Dr. Chan: What's your mom's name?

Taylor: Jolene.

Dr. Chan: Jolene?

Taylor: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Hey, Jolene. Does she go by Joe or is it JJ . . .

Taylor: Either.

Dr. Chan: . . . or Sleney.

Taylor: Sleney.

Dr. Chan: Jolene, if you're listening, come on.

Taylor: Come on to the podcast.

Dr. Chan: We want to hear your secrets.

Taylor: So I think she was friendly with the reporter.

Dough: Somebody, and then somebody asked, I think, oh, it was a photographer who asked if we would talk to the reporter.

Taylor: So my mum was real chatty with the photographer and then she somehow she got them on us.

Dr. Chan: So you open your envelopes together?

Taylor: We did.

Dr. Chan: Okay. And then where are you going?

Taylor: We're going to Albuquerque.

Doug: Albuquerque in New Mexico.

Dr. Chan: The University of New Mexico?

Dough: The University of New Mexico. Yes.

Taylor: Yeah. The University of New Mexico.

Dr. Chan: So how did it feel?

Taylor: Well, just the fact that we're going together was a big relief for us as we were just explaining. That was something we were very stressed about. And both of us actually did an away rotation in fourth year down in Albuquerque, so we kind of got to know some of the people and the residents and . . . So we were both really excited.

Doug: Very happy.

Taylor: We were very happy.

Doug: Very relieved.

Dr. Chan: Awesome.

Doug: Some tears were shed.

Dr. Chan: And then, like, crying and then a lot of, like, congratulations and hugs and you guys having this new experience of pictures being taken by the media and doing interviews, to reporters.

Doug: There were some pictures in the newspaper.

Dr. Chan: "Tribune" did a review that you guys were in.

Taylor: It was funny because the whole room, there was just so much emotion and excitement and, you know, most people are crying in some way, shape, or form. And, like, my grandmother was there and we. . .I went around the table, like, hugging my family members and when I get to my grandma, and this was, you know, several minutes after I'd opened the envelope and she finally asked, "Are these tears of happiness or tears of sadness?" She just didn't know if I was happy or sad because we were just . . . And, like, that's kind of how everyone was. Like, everyone was just . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. It's kind of a rush. I mean, it's very . . . It's become very ritualistic, and unfortunately, I think it's taken a life of its own. But it's gotten to this point, it's become like a bigger and bigger deal because, like . . . You know, and again, in my day, in my day, you know, our match day, I mean, it was at, like, a nice place but, like, I just remember that it wasn't as much, like, pomp and circumstance and there's, like, there seems to be a lot of more . . . And just, like, the energy, it's just, like, it just kind of crescendos to this moment.

Taylor: Well, the event is, like, very intimate. Like, you're with your family. You're standing right there and, you know, there's . . .

Doug: It's pretty small.

Taylor: It's, yeah, it is very . . . I mean, obviously, this is the first one I've ever been to so I don't know how it's changed over the years. But, I mean . . .

Dr. Chan: If you want to, you can attend them at New Mexico. You'll probably be busy but . . .

Taylor: Yeah. I'll probably be working that day.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, you know, but you're a house staff, so you're always invited to these type of events.

Doug: Yeah. That's true.

Dr. Chan: And be friends with the medical students and get to know them, and you'll be interested, and in case they go into pediatrics or psychiatry.

Taylor: Right. [inaudible 00:37:48] go.

Doug: Sure.

Dr. Chan: All right. So last few minutes sell me a New Mexico. What's great about this school? What would attracted you to the program? Why should people who are listening apply to the University of New Mexico?

Doug: First of all, there is the infamous hot air balloon festival . . .

Taylor: Yeah. That's . . .

Doug: . . . that they that there are fans for.

Dr. Chan: Is this in Albuquerque?

Taylor: Yeah.

Doug: It is. It's, like, I try to go always down there but it's, like, world known and, like . . .

Dr. Chan: Is this the part of the interview day, they kind of put you in a hot air balloon?

Doug: No. No. No.

Taylor: No. No.

Dr. Chan: They interview you in a hot air balloon . . .?

Doug: That would be sweet.

Dr. Chan: . . . and see how can you unfold it off?

Doug: But, yeah, they're known for their hot air balloons, which is really cool, and it's, like, a big festival type thing and food and . . .

Dr. Chan: I'm very curious. How much do hot air balloon rides cost?

Taylor: I do not know.

Dr. Chan: And how long do they last?

Taylor: I'm almost sure he doesn't know.

Doug: It's probably a lot. But the festival, you just go and, like, watch all the balloons go up. There's, like, hundreds of balloons that just go up.

Taylor: They have . . . There's something in the way the wind pattern is there that makes it really good for it. They call it, like, the square or the . . . I'll find out. But it, like, takes them up and over and then back down and . . . There's, like, something that, like, moves that, air balloons in the right direction. So even on days that it's not the festival, there are hot air balloons in the air. Yeah. It's wonderful weather.

Doug: It is.

Taylor: It's not . . .

Doug: It's not like Arizona.

Taylor: It's not hot like Arizona.

Doug: Everyone thinks it is.

Taylor: It's like a high desert there. It's . . .

Doug: It's, like, 70 and sunny. What do they say? 300 days out of the year or something like that.

Taylor: Yeah. Like blue skies.

Doug: Yeah. It's very cheap to live.

Taylor: It is low cost of living.

Dr. Chan: Cheaper than Utah, I hear.

Doug: Definitely.

Taylor: Yeah. Very cheap.

Dr. Chan: Great food. Great Mexican food.

Taylor: Great food. They love their green chilies down there.

Doug: They do.

Taylor: And they put the green chilies in everything.

Doug: "Breaking Bad."

Taylor: "Breaking Bad."

Dr. Chan: You always talk about "Breaking Bad."

Taylor: "Breaking Bad."

Dr. Chan: Is that part of the, a tour on the interview day?

Doug: No. But there's a "Breaking Bad" tour you can do. You can, like, see where they film and . . .

Taylor: You can.

Doug: . . . and we did a self-guided tour, actually.

Taylor: We did. We, like, looked some stuff up but . . .

Doug: So that was fun.

Taylor: So they . . .

Dr. Chan: God bless the internet.

Taylor: I know.

Doug: Yes. Exactly.

Dr. Chan: It just helps tracking the stuff here.

Doug: Exactly.

Taylor: It does. So that was a "Breaking Bad." I also really loved, "Roswell" is not too far, so there's lots of aliens stuff.

Dr. Chan: I like this image. Aliens and crabs and air balloons, and Mexican food.

Taylor: South of Albuquerque is White Sands National Park, which we haven't checked out yet but we're excited to.

Doug: It's really, apparently, where they film a lot of movies.

Taylor: In New Mexico, in general, there's a lot of movies and filming. A lot of stuff is filmed there.

Doug: It's supposed to be beautiful. There's Santa Fe, which people love.

Taylor: Santa Fe.

Dr. Chan: There's lost cruises, but that's far down south.

Doug: Yeah. In the middle there but . . .

Taylor: And, like, [inaudible 00:40:14] skiing. They keep telling me I, because, you know, on, like, on the interview day, they tried to, like, the residents and the . . .

Dr. Chan: Oh, Taylor is from Utah. Mm, let's talk about skiing.

Taylor: Oh, yeah. A little bit. It's not like city-owned. We can ski so . . . But we can go to Taos, apparently, north of . . .

Dr. Chan: Did you say it, like, that's actually a stereotype, and I'm very offended. Did you say it [inaudible 00:40:31]?

Taylor: I should have, and then they do actually have hike, because again, you know, they have to, like, show off that they do have, [inaudible 00:40:39].

Dr. Chan: We're outdoorsy like you.

Taylor: They are. They are.

Dr. Chan: We're just playing tough.

Doug: Yes. Exactly.

Taylor: But there are actually mountains. It's not completely flat.

Doug: There's lots of hiking and, yeah.

Taylor: We're excited.

Doug: But . . .

Taylor: We're excited. A new city.

Dr. Chan: And it has a Charles psychiatry fellowship.

Doug: It does.

Dr. Chan: And they'll probably have this new . . .

Taylor: I hope so.

Dr. Chan: . . . hospitalist program, which I'm sure you're . . .

Taylor: We'll see.

Dr. Chan: . . . very excited to do because it's just more years . . .

Taylor: It's just more years of . . .

Dr. Chan: . . . of making resident pay.

Taylor: . . . making resident pay. Yeah. We'll see where that goes. But we're really excited about the new patient populations, new people, new . . .

Doug: It's one of the poorest states in the U.S., actually.

Taylor: Yeah. Apparently, they go back and forth with Mississippi.

Doug: And that actually, that might repel some people, but that actually attracted us just because of the demographic we could potentially work with.

Taylor: Yeah. Like, low resource need, you know.

Doug: And I actually loved their program because they have a 24-hour psych Ed, which is separate from a normal Ed and not every program has that, and so, I thought that was a unique opportunity that residents have to train in. So, yeah, I really liked UNM when I was down there so . . .

Taylor: And we really liked . . .

Doug: . . . And we're both really happy.

Taylor: We really liked the residence.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. We have a bunch of my graduates down there.

Taylor: Oh, we do.

Doug: We do.

Dr. Chan: So it's just kind of a little community that's growing.

Taylor: Yeah. We do. Yeah, and even within our class, there are two others besides us that are going down there so we'll have . . . Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Wow. Very cool.

Taylor: Yeah. One of our OBGYN cohorts is going down there so she'll pass me babies in the labor and [inaudible 00:42:10].

Doug: And ortho.

Taylor: And then in orthopedic.

Dr. Chan: This is awesome. All right. So last question for both of you. For anyone out there listening who's thinking of applying to medical school or struggling to decide to go to medical school or, you know, what tips would you give? What counsel would you give before they embark on this journey? Because I would argue you guys are kind of at the halfway point and you still have . . .

Taylor: Thank you.

Dr. Chan: . . . and you still have residency.

Taylor: Oh, no.

Dr. Chan: You have residency to go.

Doug: Don't say that.

Taylor: Oh, no, Dr. Chan.

Dr. Chan: I know. It's sad but true. Yeah. Even though you'll be MDs very soon full, it will not be full indeed for . . .

Taylor: It's still halfway.

Dr. Chan: . . . just until you can graduate your residency program.

Taylor: Oh, go ahead.

Doug: I would say make sure it's what you really want. Don't do it because of anything else, specifically parents or money or prestige or anything like that. Like, I don't want to say it's not worth that but you have to be committed for the right reasons. Otherwise, you might not make it. And it was the most. . .

Taylor: Then it would be miserable along way.

Doug: Yeah. Exactly. It would be not enjoyable and, I mean, it was the single most difficult thing I've ever done in my life, and I never would have got through it if it wasn't what I truly wanted. So I would say make sure, like, through various. . . And I think that's the point of applying to medical school is that we see that you have experienced many different things and not just cookie cutter things. We want, you know, make sure that you have different experiences that solidify your decision to enter and go through that which is medical school.

Dr. Chan: All right. Taylor, last word of advice.

Taylor: Oh, I mean, a lot of what Doug said is true. You just make sure you want to do it and then just know that you can do it. Yeah. You can do it. We were just talking the other day that we can't believe it's over but apparently, it's only half over.

Dr. Chan: Well, at least you get paid a nice amount. I mean, you know, and. . . Does New Mexico, at the medical center, does it have, like, good cafeteria privileges for residents? I'm trying to look at the sunny side of things here. What's just a great thing to do In New Mexico? Is it, you know . . .

Taylor: It is [inaudible 00:44:39].

Doug: It's true.

Dr. Chan: It is an enchanted land, right?

Taylor: It's the land of the enchantment.

Doug: It is. It is.

Dr. Chan: Okay. There you go. There you go.

Taylor: Yeah. The food will be fine there. I'm not sure it was . . .

Doug: It actually was fine. I think you get more than I do but . . .

Dr. Chan: I hope you share. Please share.

Taylor: We'll share.

Dr. Chan: [inaudible 00:44:54].

Doug: Well, she'll be in the hospital more than me.

Taylor: Yeah. I will. Definitely. But, yeah. You can do it. Everyone can do it.

Doug: Everyone can do it.

Dr. Chan: Cool. Well, I'm excited for you guys because I have a feeling you'll wind up back in Utah one day. I'll have to have you guys come back . . .

Doug: We might . . .

Dr. Chan: . . . and get an update on the story.

Doug: We may.

Taylor: We will.

Dr. Chan: And there might be a little mini me's or something like that . . .

Doug: Maybe.

Taylor: Oh. Oh, okay.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. All right. Thank you, Doug and Taylor.

Taylor: Thanks, Dr. Chan.

Doug: Thanks, Dr. Chan.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school. A production of "The Scope Health Sciences Radio," online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What was it like to start dating at the beginning of second year med school after being just friends for the first year? Was it nice to date someone going through the same thing as you? How do you create a strategy for couples matching? And finally, what are the benefits of both parties attending the same interview day for residency programs? Today on "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," I interview Parvathi and Anish, successful couples match and recent graduates here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world. This is "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Welcome to another edition of "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life." I have two super guests today, Par and Anish, fourth-year medical students who have matched. We're going to save that to the very end, but I'm very excited you're here. I've known you for many years. I've seen you around for many years. Let's complete the circle of life and let's talk about it. Okay. So let's start at the beginning. How did you two meet? Was it Second Look Day? Was it orientation week?

Parvathi: Yeah. I think it was Second Look Day.

Anish: No, it was orientation week, because I didn't come to Second Look Day. So it was during orientation week.

Dr. Chan: Was that a different Anish you met?

Anish: That's messed up.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Anish: It was during orientation week, and I was actually talking to one of my other friends, and I was looking for an excuse to talk to Parvathi, and I made some sort of dumb excuse to introduce this other friend, and that's how we first met.

Parvathi: No. You know what he did, he like threw this other friend under the bus. He like told some story that was very embarrassing to her, and that's how you introduced yourself. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Is this a story that is appropriate to recount?

Parvathi: I think he said something like she coughed and threw out her back or something. I was like, "Why would just say that?"

Anish: [inaudible 00:01:52] threw out her back.

Dr. Chan: So that was your opening impression?

Anish: It was. It was.

Dr. Chan: That Anish has overwhelming empathy for people who have [inaudible 00:02:02] . . .

Anish: It was.

Dr. Chan: . . . and . . .

Anish: But at that time we were both dating other people. We were both in relationships at that time.

Parvathi: Yeah. That's true.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So this is orientation week.

Anish: Yes.

Parvathi: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So you still remember each other . . .

Parvathi: Yes.

Dr. Chan: . . . and just friends at first?

Anish: Yup.

Parvathi: Yup.

Dr: Chan: Okay. And how did that friendship evolve? I mean, what happened?

Parvathi: I think, so we would hang out, you know, like other friends, and I don't know. Okay.

Anish: You're so bad.

Parvathi: Okay. What?

Anish: First year was very difficult for me, and so I was struggling a lot. I was living really far away, and I didn't have a lot of friends.

Dr. Chan: So med school is difficult or your relationship with Parvathi was difficult?

Anish: No. Med school was difficult.

Parvathi: We weren't in a relationship at that time.

Anish: We weren't in a relationship. And so it was really tough. And so I struggled a lot. And . . .

Dr. Chan: Where were you living?

Anish: I was living in Sandy, so that's, you know.

Dr. Chan: Okay, that is a far drive.

Anish: Yeah, and everybody else was, you know, in downtown. So I felt really socially and sort of physically isolated, and Parvathi was kind of the friend that I really opened up to about it and that's where our friendship really started to blossom.

Dr. Chan: That's very beautiful.

Parvathi: It is.

Dr. Chan: That's the best of your recollection. Okay. All right. So would you guys study together?

Parvathi: Actually, no.

Anish: Never.

Parvathi: We have never studied together.

Dr. Chan: You have different styles of learning or . . .

Anish: Yeah.

Parvathi: Yeah.

Anish: I like to study alone.

Parvathi: Yeah. He studies alone. I would study with a group of people here at HSEB, but honestly, it was a lot more like hanging out than studying. So Anish is probably more sensible to study on his own.

Dr. Chan: All right. Sounds good. Sounds good. So med school is hard. When did you move? Or you're still living out in Sandy?

Anish: So I still lived in Sandy. I've lived in Sandy all four years. First year, progressed and it got better, and I felt like I made really good friends. One of them obviously was Parvathi. And then just over that year, both of our other relationships, you know, sort of dissolved, and that summer she actually went to Boston and I was here. We were doing research and we were just talking.

Dr. Chan: I remember that, diabetes research. Right?

Parvathi: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, wow.

Anish: And when she came back, I asked her out, and that's kind of where it started.

Dr: Chan: So this is the summer of 2015?

Anish: Yes.

Parvathi: Yes.

Anish: And then the August 1st when school started, I asked her out and that's when our new relationship started.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Awesome. And then did you keep it secret for a while, or how people find out about it?

Parvathi: Oh, so that whole summer when we'd been talking, we kept it secret from everyone except for Douglas Chan who is a really good secret keeper. So I want the records to show. He didn't even tell his girlfriend, and he was the only one that knew, and then we came back and on the first day of school, we told everyone. Everyone was like so shocked. Some people were very angry that I didn't share this with them. Then they got over it, and it was great.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. Awesome. So you're together starting second year?

Anish: Mm-hmm.

Parvathi: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right. So going into third year, what was your strategy? Did you try to have rotations together or . . . Because like third year's tough because like students are kind of doing . . . the hours are weird, long hours at the hospital. Some students who are in a relationship try to coordinate schedules so they'll be on a "easy rotation" and have more free time together, versus people who are very scared to kind of be in the same hospital with someone. How did you guys approach that?

Anish: We didn't coordinate at all.

Parvathi: We didn't coordinate at all. We didn't think it was that imperative to our relationship to be like in close physical proximity at all times. I mean, I don't know. Texting and things like that make it so easy to be in touch all the time, that it didn't really make a difference. And it was kind of nice because then we'd be on different rotations where one of us might be on an easier rotation and the other one might be on a harder rotation, and that way, the person on the easier rotation could come to the other person's house or whatever. And that sometimes works better than if you're both in it together.

Anish: Yeah. And we always set at least one day a week to spend together, whether it was our off day, whether we had a short day, you know, we would just . . . even some days it was just that we grabbed dinner together before, you know, we had to go to bed. And so that's sort of how we managed third year was trying to just make the time when we have it.

Dr. Chan: What does it mean to you to have the shared experience going through medical school together? I mean, in what ways has that impacted your relationship?

Anish: Yeah. I would say that it's strengthened it. You know, I would tell any medical student or any medical student hopeful that nobody will understand what it's like to go through medical school other than the people going through it with you, and to have somebody in a relationship with you who's going through the same thing, it's unbelievable. It really makes everything a lot better.

Parvathi: Yeah. I'd say the same thing. Some people . . . well, a lot of doctors, you know, get married to each other. And now I see why, because in medicine I feel like you're in this different culture almost, or you have like a different language. You say all these words sometimes in like normal conversation that then you realize other people don't really understand. And when you're with your significant other who is in the same field, you can talk in that same language and like, you have like nerdy jokes that nobody else would get, and . . .

Dr. Chan: They understand perfectly what a bad call night looks like.

Parvathi: Exactly. And when you say like, "Oh, I have to stay late today," they know exactly what that means. They know you're not making an excuse not to, you know, come meet with them or whatever.

Dr. Chan: And then talk about maybe patients that have impacted you or, you know, passed away or difficult attendings things like that.

Parvathi: Yeah, yeah. When you talk about difficult experiences like that, they have like been there through the same thing. So that's so helpful to talk to someone like that.

Dr. Chan: Awesome.

Parvathi: For sure.

Dr. Chan: All right. Let's, again, I'll go back to the beginning. So before medical school, what kind of medicine did you think you would go into? And how did that change during your four years here?

Parvathi: Do you want to start?

Anish: Sure. So . . .

Dr. Chan: Or if it changed.

Anish: So it actually, I don't think it changed for me. So I actually didn't ever think I was going to go into medicine until maybe my junior year of college. And then when I did and I applied and was getting ready to come here, you know, I always knew that I wanted to do something sort of intensive, something where I'd get to do procedures and really see like hospital medicine and, you know, going through medical school that stayed totally true. You know, I've loved my internal medicine rotation. I've loved my ICU rotation. And so, for me, either it was sort of just identifying the things I liked beforehand and then just looking at the fields that emphasized that. And so it stayed true for me throughout medical school.

Dr. Chan: So where did you end up selecting?

Anish: So I'm going into internal medicine.

Dr. Chan: Okay. And what is internal medicine for people who don't know what that is? And what about it attracted you to it?

Anish: Sure, so internal medicine, I like to tell people those are the doctors that you're going to see if you get admitted to the hospital from the emergency room. So, you know, if you get a pneumonia, if you get some sort of infection, if you, you know, have heart failure, or something like that, like those are the types of physicians that you're going to see in the hospital. And the reason I chose it is because I really liked that kind of core physiology. I really like thinking about how the body's organs work together and how they influence each other, and I really felt like internal medicine sort of allowed me to see that, sort of explore that physiology in each patient that I saw.

Dr. Chan: So six weeks of internal medicine during the first half of third year and then six weeks of internal medicine the second half.

Anish: So eight weeks of internal medicine, third year.

Dr. Chan: Oh, eight weeks. So, okay. So when you did your rotation, did it just feel natural? Like, "This is my home. These are my people."

Anish: Yeah. So, actually, my first two weeks, I did not like it at all. I was on a specialty orientation.

Dr. Chan: Why? Oh, okay.

Anish: It was my first experience on internal medicine, and I had no idea what was going on and it was a specialty. And so I really had no idea what was going on.

Dr. Chan: Can you name the body part?

Anish: It was hematology oncology.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay. Blood cells.

Anish: Yeah. So, you know, like I understood blood cells, but I didn't understand cancers that well. And so I felt really lost, and I remember like I would call Parvathi at the end of the day and be like, "I don't know if I can do this." Like, "It is so difficult." And then I made it through those two weeks, and I hit inpatient wards, which is just kind of like general medicine.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Not so much specialized towards cancer.

Anish: Exactly, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Yeah.

Anish: Yeah. And I loved it. I loved every minute of it. I loved the types of patients I saw. I loved the things I got to do. And so, you know, so that part really reinforced my desire to go into internal medicine.

Dr. Chan: Okay, cool. How about you Par?

Parvathi: So I started out thinking that I would go into pediatrics actually, mostly because those are the only like shadowing experiences, volunteer patient experiences that I'd had previous to medical school. And as I went through medical school, actually I started third year on internal medicine because I thought, you know, that would prepare me well for pediatrics.

Dr. Chan: You don't like treating old people, right? So, yeah.

Parvathi: Old people so . . .

Dr. Chan: Compared to pediatrics.

Parvathi: Oh, I didn't know about old people. They're so adorable. And so that totally changed everything. And so I remember like starting my first day of third year on internal medicine general wards, and I met this resident who was just so enthusiastic about medicine and about teaching, and I like really looked up to him, and then I met this other attending who would, you know, take us on like little teaching sessions throughout the hospital and find patients with really interesting physical exam findings.

And I thought this was the most interesting thing that I could be doing. And I felt like I really connected with the residents and the attendings that I worked with. And pediatrics was fun too, but it just didn't feel the same. And on medicine I felt like you could really talk with patients through really difficult situations, like, you know, palliative care conversations and really involve the patient in their care. Whereas in pediatrics, I felt like you don't really involve the kid, you know. So yeah, that's kind of why I ended up choosing medicine. I felt like I connected with the people and . . .

Dr. Chan: Did you go through like a crisis? Did you like doubt that decision?

Parvathi: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Was it hard to let pediatrics go or . . .

Parvathi: Yeah, it was, because I have been so committed to pediatrics before and I had done EPAC, which is this program we have here, where you have pediatric like experiences through the first two years of medical school, and some people choose to apply straight into pediatrics at the end of second year. I didn't choose to do that, but I thought, you know, I was definitely going to do peds. And so I was like, "Oh no. How can I switch now?" And then I remember like asking my friends and family what they thought I should go into. And they were like, "Oh, you should definitely go into internal medicine."

Dr. Chan: Really? Why did they say that?

Parvathi: I don't know. They said that was more of my personality, and I don't know what that means, but I took it as a compliment. I don't know. I don't know.

Dr. Chan: We're going to find out in the next few years. So you switched to internal medicine?

Parvathi: Yes.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. So I think it's rare, because I've interviewed couples who have gone through the couples match before, but for you two to both choose the same field, I don't think I've seen that. So did you run into that?

Parvathi: I've met a couple of residents who couples matched into medicine together. They might go into like different fields, but . . .

Dr. Chan: Okay. Yes, because internal medicine, the residency lends itself to do a fellowship.

Anish: Yes.

Parvathi: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: So three years internal medicine, and then most of the fellowships are three years, correct?

Anish: Most of them.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right.

Parvathi: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So I'm not going to hold you to it. But as of today, if you had to go into a fellowship, would you? And which one would you?

Parvathi: You know, I actually would not do a fellowship. I want to be a hospital medicine hospitalist, so you don't need a fellowship for that because most internal medicine residencies prepare you really well to take care of patients in the hospital. Yeah, I want to do that because I think you get to see the widest like diversity of patients that way. You see a lot of interesting things, and you're constantly learning from your colleagues who are specialists. So you can kind of have a knowledge of like everything, which I really like.

Anish: And I'm actually thinking pulmonary critical care.

Dr. Chan: Oh, wow.

Anish: So I really liked kind of that intensive medicine and being in the ICU and sort of having those really sick patients. And then I think the field also lends itself to kind of having a good outpatient lifestyle, and sort of as you get older and sort of the intensive schedule gets harder, you can, you know, retire into a nice pulmonary or sleep clinic or something like that.

Dr. Chan: You're not intimidated by the ventilator?

Anish: No.

Dr. Chan: All the knobs.

Anish: No.

Dr. Chan: All the readings.

Anish: I say add more knobs, really.

Dr. Chan: Okay. You need more knobs on that thing. Yeah. And there's like 10 different readings on that. It just looks terrifying. It looks like . . . to me, it's like a nuclear bomb. If you touch the wrong button and you twist this like, bad things could happen. So, cool. All right. So third year is about to come to an end. You're thinking both, you're committed to internal medicine. When does the conversation between you about the couples match, when does that start happening?

Parvathi: When did we have that?

Anish: I mean, we started to have it I think during our second to last third-year rotation. So that's like, it's probably right about now, this time last year, April-ish.

Dr. Chan: So spring 2017.

Anish: Yeah. And we started to talk about it. You know, is the couples match the right move for us? Is it, you know, what does that mean for our relationship? It was a lot of really intensive conversations that actually kind of continued into the summer and almost until we submitted ERAS. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Well, I mean, what was your initial strategy as you started looking at programs? I mean, how did you decide . . . because like this going through residency applications is stressful enough. There's a lot of complexity to it. There's a lot of different layers to it. It's fairly expensive. We can get into that. But throwing on a couples match, tying, yoking, having your application, you know, linked to another person sounds much harder or more beautiful when you look [inaudible 00:16:17] because, again, going through it together.

Parvathi: It's both, yeah.

Dr. Chan: So what was your strategy at the beginning?

Parvathi: At the beginning, the very beginning, I think our strategy was just to apply broadly. I know they always tell you to kind of choose a region of the country, or, you know, if you like a certain city, look in, you know, those areas. But to be honest, like both of us didn't really know like a specific area that we were interested in more than any other area. We did know that a lot of programs on the East Coast are really, really good programs, and also really close to each other, even in different states or whatever. You could drive like an hour and be, you know, close to each other. So that was, we kind of focused on that area because we knew there was like a high density there. But other than that, we just kind of applied to other states and places that sounded nice.

Dr. Chan: So targeting larger cities.

Parvathi: Yes, larger cities.

Dr. Chan: So in case you didn't get into the same program, you made meet in the same city because it's [inaudible 00:17:12] . . . so internal medicine program, there's a lot of them in larger cities and multiple programs.

Parvathi: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Chan: All right.

Parvathi: Yeah. So that was kind of our initial strategy. And we, you know, asked around to like residents and interns that we were working with and asked where they applied and what their top five programs were and why. I think that was really helpful too, actually.

Dr. Chan: So how many programs did you apply to?

Parvathi: Forty-two. Yeah. Both of us did, right?

Anish: I applied to 37.

Parvathi: Oh.

Dr. Chan: Oh, we're learning stuff together. It's beautiful. All right. So applied to all these programs, and then did the interview offers come at the same time? Are they staggered? If one got invited to one program, would the other one shoot off an email and let that program know that, "Hey, I'm very interested. I'm going through a couples match"? How do that process work? How'd you handle that?

Anish: Yeah. So actually, our first interview invites, I remember I had gone to sleep, and then it's like 10:30, 11:00 at night, and I get this call, and I get a call on my cell phone, but I'm trying to sleep, so I ignore it. And then all of a sudden my home phone goes off, and [inaudible 00:18:19] and I'm trying to sleep. I answer the phone like, "Oh, what's going on?" Like, you know, "What's the emergency? Because why, you know, why I called twice this late at night." She's like, "Oh my gosh, we got our first interview invite. We have to book a place now. We have to get everything ready. We have to schedule it."

Dr. Chan: "Wake up, Anish. Wake up. This is not a dream. This is not a drill." Yeah.

Anish: I'm trying to wake up. I'm opening my laptop. I'm like panicking a little bit. We end up booking an interview spot, and then two weeks later we end up canceling this, and we ended up not interviewing at that school at all. So that was all for naught.

Dr. Chan: Why did you cancel?

Anish: It ended up being too expensive for us to fly out.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay.

Parvathi: That soon.

Anish: Yeah. And we just felt like and over time we got more and more invites that were at schools that we liked a little bit more. And so that school kept falling further and further down the list for where we really want to go. But, honestly, a lot of our interviews just kind of trickled in. Usually, we would get interview invites together at the same time. There was maybe one or two that one of us got earlier than the other, but then the other one would get the invite the next day or something like that, or the next week or whatever it was.

Dr. Chan: So how many programs did you interview on the same day with the same time?

Anish: So that's hard because sometimes we interviewed at the same program but on different days that week. So like, in Maryland, we interviewed at three programs, but we interviewed at those programs on different days just because they didn't have room for both of us on one day.

Dr. Chan: Was it beneficial or is it more stressful to have the other person there on the interview day?

Anish: I don't know.

Parvathi: Honestly, we would end up getting like split up at some point during the interview day because internal medicine programs are pretty large. And so how interview days work is they usually have like, I don't know, 20 plus people, and they get split up into different groups for like tours and activities and things like that. So we'd get split up for that reason anyway. So I wouldn't really see him for the rest of the day. So it doesn't really make a difference, but it was a little bit like a little nicer when we'd, you know, get there at the same time and be a little nervous together, and be like, "Oh, this is going to be okay."

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And then you can immediately compare notes afterwards. Like what [inaudible 00:20:39]

Parvathi: Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: . . . what was your impression?

Parvathi: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: Oh, so and so was super nice, or so and so was super creepy, yeah.

Parvathi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We always did that anyway, but yeah.

Dr. Chan: And would you like have a system which like, is there some Google spreadsheet that you immediately log in . . .

Parvathi: Oh, yes.

Dr. Chan: . . . and put like . . . Okay. Who was in charge of that?

Parvathi: Okay. So this is me.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Parvathi: So I discovered that there is something called like the NRMP, like Prism or something. There's this app.

Dr. Chan: Prism not prison.

Parvathi: Yeah, not jail.

Dr. Chan: Not jail, okay. National Resident Matching Program. Yeah.

Parvathi: I know that's kind of what it feels like at times. No.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Parvathi: It's this app, and it has all of these like different categories for each program. And the idea is that right after you interview at a program, you can kind of go through and rate each one of those categories.

Dr. Chan: Oh, it's like a cheat sheet, a rubric.

Parvathi: A rubric, yeah. It's like a grading rubric for each program that you go to. And it's like, you know, quality of the faculty, quality of the program director, like research opportunities there, things like that. And so I figured we could make an Excel sheet on like Google Docs or whatever and put both of our . . . like have two columns for me and Anish, and we could compare our thoughts on each program that way. And we were pretty good at it for like a couple of programs, and then it got really exhausting. But, I mean, if you want to be systematic about it, that's a way to do it.

Dr. Chan: All right. So describe the process leading up to submitting your rank list. What did you value together? What ended up kind of tipping one program over another? How did that look like?

Parvathi: Honestly, like, when you ask for advice from people on how to rank programs, a lot of people say gut feeling should be really important. I was like, "No. That's ridiculous. We are evidence-based and, you know, things like that."

Dr. Chan: We're scientific.

Parvathi: Yeah, scientific, that's actually true. Like, when you go somewhere and, you know, the first person there greets you, and the program director comes around and shakes your hand, you know, things like that really make a difference. And the faculty that you interview with, do you feel yourself connecting to them? Do you find someone at that program that you can picture yourself becoming? Things like that become really important as you go through the interview process. And I feel like that was very important to me.

Anish: So we had to make a linked rank list because we were couples matching, which means that whereas most people have maybe like 11 or 12 programs that they rank and submit, we had to do every combination of both of our rank list. So I ended up interviewing at 19 schools, and you had what? Six?

Parvathi: Fourteen, yeah.

Anish: Fourteen schools. And so, you know, 19 times 14 it was something like 266 combinations. And then on top of that, we did, just to be safe at the end of the list, you do a combination where one of you doesn't match and the other one matches. And so we had to do all of the combinations of that.

Dr. Chan: So like the danger zone, if you get that far down, you kind of go your separate ways as far as the match goes.

Anish: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. Just to make sure the other person does . . .

Anish: Matches.

Dr. Chan: If someone matches, at least one person better than zero people matching.

Anish: Right. So only one of us would have to go through this [inaudible 00:23:52] if we had to.

Dr. Chan: Interesting.

Anish: And so, in the end, I think we had like, ended up having 300 combinations on our rank list, and we made it all by hand, and we went through it multiple times, and it was really exhausting. And, honestly, after our first five or six combinations at the top of our list, you know, we didn't really care what the other, whatever 280 of them were because at that point we were just going to schools and ranking them because we could. You know, we really only cared about the ones that we ranked at the top. And so, you know, those ones were more of a discussion than our last 200.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Awesome. So you submit the rank list. Obviously it takes a month for the computer algorithm to run. What was it like during that month?

Anish: It was awful. There was multiple checking of our rank list to make sure we had submitted it correctly. There was a lot of panic waiting. I remember like I had switched to an elective, and it just felt like the slowest elective I'd ever been on in my life.

Dr. Chan: So it gives you downtime, you're just thinking about, "Did I do the right thing?"

Anish: Yeah. And you just sit there and you keep thinking about it, and you keep thinking about it, and you're like, "There's literally nothing I can do about it right now." But you can't stop thinking about it.

Dr. Chan: Is it like radio silence from these programs? Are they still . . . Because I know there's like, there's a lot of emails that go back and forth, and, you know, we call them love letters from either side. You know, so was it complete radio silence? Or how is that during this time?

Parvathi: So most of the programs that we interviewed at made it very clear that they have a policy that they do not communicate with you after interviews, and that's really nice, actually. I don't know if that's the case with other specialties. It seems like maybe that's not the case, but for us, it was pretty nice. If anything, they would send like little reminders that you can do a Second Look Day or something like that. But none of them would ever be like, "Hey, you know, we really liked you. You should rank us number one." Like we didn't get any of that, so that was really nice.

Dr. Chan: All right. So take me to the Monday before match.

Parvathi: Oh, okay. So I highly . . .

Dr. Chan: More stressful than match day itself?

Parvathi: Yes.

Dr. Chan: Because that's when you found out if you match.

Parvathi: If you match, right. So they have this process where, just so, you know, you know whether you match or not. You get an email on the Monday before where you know so that on Friday you don't show up if you didn't match. So I was on advanced internal medicine, which is like this pretty busy rotation, which I highly recommend during the month of March because it kept your mind off of this whole process. So I was like pre-rounding on patients, and at 9:00 that's when the email goes out. I was sitting there, and I just checked my email and I was like, "Oh, I matched. Thank goodness. You can move on."

Dr. Chan: What were you doing, Anish?

Anish: So . . .

Parvathi: Oh.

Dr. Chan: That's okay.

Anish: I was actually at outpatient sleep clinic, and we didn't have any patients until like 10:00 and I was there at 7:00 in the morning. And so overall . . .

Dr. Chan: Were you sleeping?

Anish: I was not. I wish I was. I just remember the night before, even though I like knew, in my heart, me and Parvathi had definitely matched somewhere, I just like, still like couldn't sleep that night before and I still woke up very early. And I actually was talking to my attending when he got there, and all of a sudden it was like 9:15 and Parvathi sends me a text like, "Yay, I matched." I was like, "Oh, I should probably check on that." So then I looked, and then, of course, we both matched. And so, you know, it ended up working really well.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. Friday morning, both of your families there?

Anish: Just my family was there.

Dr. Chan: All right. Just your family. So, you know, there's only like a little program, and then here in Utah, because it has to be like noon East Coast time. So we opened up our envelopes at 10:00. They cut the red ribbon. Walk me through what happened.

Anish: There was a mad dash to get to our letters, and me and Parvathi had decided that we wanted to open it in front of our parents.

Dr. Chan: Simultaneously?

Anish: Yeah, simultaneously together. So we were on probably the south side of the room, and our letters were all the way on the opposite side on the north side. And so we ran all the way to get our letters, and then we had to run all the way back to our table, and all the while we're like going through this crowds of people and they're opening their letters, and they're throwing their hands up, and I'm just getting more and more anxious because I haven't opened it yet. And then finally, we get to the table.

Parvathi: Yeah, that journey between that table where our letters were and our table where our parents were was like the longest . . . It must've been like one minute, but it felt like two hours of, "Move out of my way."

Dr. Chan: Yeah. You're holding this hot envelope, hot news.

Parvathi: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we opened it together. And I struggled so much with opening this letter. It's like, "Oh, I forgot how to open envelopes."

Dr. Chan: Were you trembling?

Parvathi: Yeah. I was like shaking, but we opened them and it was good news, and we were so excited. Oh, also before . . . so the university has a lot of like social media people at the event who are, you know, recording . . .

Dr. Chan: Yep. I think you made it to the official video part.

Parvathi: Oh, yeah. So this lady asked us beforehand, "Do you mind if we film you opening your envelopes?" And we're like, "Yes, as long as we don't cry." Cut that out. No, but, yeah. So we were being videotaped at all angles, and yeah, it was a good day.

Dr. Chan: All right. So we'll start with Par. Where are you headed? Where'd you match to?

Parvathi: I matched at Brown University in Rhode Island.

Dr. Chan: Rhode Island, okay. So sell us on Brown. Why Brown?

Parvathi: So I felt like this was another one of those gut feeling things. When I got there, I like met all of these really nice people. They had morning report that day, so we watched all the residents come in, and it was like this really interesting case. And you could just tell that they were like really good friends with each other, and they were just talking about this case and coming up with different ideas. And I felt like I want to be one of them. And then the person that interviewed me is a hospitalist, and talking to her I felt like . . . We talked about my hobbies, and we had some of the same hobbies, and I really connected with her. And so I don't know. The whole day I just felt like very at home and very comfortable, and I felt like, you know, they had all of the nice things, like the research opportunities, the academic, like, rigor of a good internal medicine program.

Dr. Chan: The Ivy League. Ivy League.

Parvathi: And Providence, it's just a cool town. There's a lot of good restaurants there, which is very important to me.

Dr. Chan: How many residents are there per year? How big [inaudible 00:30:39]?

Parvathi: So they have 30 categorical interns.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Interesting. Wow. And then, how many hospitals are kind of within the system?

Parvathi: So there's three hospitals, which is cool. There is a Miriam Hospital, there's the Rhode Island Hospital, and there's the VA. So that's really nice. So we get a VA experience as well.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right, cool. All right. Anish, where did you match?

Anish: So I'm going to Beth Israel in Boston, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Harvard?

Anish: It is a Harvard-affiliated hospital.

Dr. Chan: Harvard-affiliated hospital. Yes.

Anish: It is.

Dr. Chan: So sells us on Beth Israel.

Anish: So the thing that I . . . first of all, Boston is just a really cool city. I've visited there with Parvathi twice now, and, you know, I just really love the city. And then the other thing that really sold me was that I'm really into medical education. I really wanted to teach in my future, and that's kind of their whole model there. You know, they're all about education and making you the best intern that you can be and, you know, really trying new educational experiences. And so that was something that really resonated with me. And then during my interviews, both of my interviewers I felt were, you know, attendings and faculty that I'd want to interact with, and I want to work with some day. And so, you know, all that stuff just really added up into me ranking it as high as I did. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. Awesome. And how many residents are a year in internal medicine?

Anish: So . . .

Dr. Chan: And you get to rotate at different . . . I mean, how many hospitals are within the system?

Anish: Yeah, so . . .

Dr. Chan: Because I know there's tons of teaching courses in Boston.

Anish: Yeah, there's tons. So in terms of how categorical interns, I think there's around 43, something like that. And then, we also rotate at a VA clinic, and then we also rotate at Dana-Farber as well as our main, Beth Israel Medical Center. And the other thing that I really liked about that is you actually get to work with interns and residents from some of the surrounding programs, so like Boston University and Brigham and Women's.

Dr. Chan: Mass General. Yeah.

Anish: Yeah. So, you know, you get to be on teams with them because you all kind of share the same hospital space.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. How far apart is Rhode Island and Boston?

Anish: Yeah. So it is an hour drive almost exactly from our two hospitals. But there is a train that's only about 30 minutes.

Dr. Chan: So walk people through this, because you matched in similar areas, not the same cities. So is the plan for Par to stay in Rhode Island and then Anish up in Boston and you'll just see each other on the weekends? Or how is that going to look like?

Parvathi: So for our first year, we're going to have separate places in Boston and Providence and just kind of meet up wherever. But after we get married . . .

Dr. Chan: Oh, we're going to talking about that. That's so exciting.

Parvathi: We're probably going to find some place in the middle and just commute from there.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. Sounds good. And Rhode Island, Boston, more expensive than Salt Lake, I assume?

Parvathi: More expensive. Rhode Island is not as bad. Boston is pretty bad.

Dr. Chan: Little bit worse. All right. Fair enough. Okay. A couple more questions in my mind. This has been great. I love having you guys. All right. Anish, you talked about living in Sandy during med school. But as far as I recall, you grew up in Utah. Anish: Yes.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So it's not like you were not from Utah and you ended up in Sandy . . .

Anish: No.

Dr. Chan: . . . through a series of unfortunate events.

Anish: No.

Dr. Chan: Nothing bad about Sandy. All right. So let's talk about . . . So looking back, your four years, what surprised you at med school? What kind of resonated with you? Because you went from Johnny Hopkins to here.

Anish: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So, you know, I guess multi-layered question. I guess I'm asking you multiple questions within one question. Not a good technique. Was it hard coming back? Especially since living in Baltimore is pretty different, I would say.

Anish: Yeah. So it was hard to go to Baltimore. That was a very interesting transition, and it was hard to come back. You know, I spent four years in Baltimore. I really got, you know, involved in the culture. I changed as a person, and then, you know, I came back to Utah. I went back to Sandy where I grew up, and it felt kind of weird, you know, to go back home for a little bit. And that was part of what made first year a little bit difficult was that I was adjusting to everything again. And, you know, people describe medical school as a fire hydrant, and, you know, the first couple of years you're just getting blasted with water, and, you know, the last few years you've learned to swim a little bit better, but it never lets up.

And so, you know, that's what it felt like. So it wasn't as hard to adjust. It wouldn't have been as hard to adjust coming back if I had just been moving here for a job or something. But, you know, having to adjust to med school and coming back to Sandy and, you know, living with my parents, all that stuff kind of added up. But in the end, you know, I've actually loved it. I loved coming back to Utah. One of the reasons actually, when I got my interview invite here, don't take this personally, Dr. Chan.

Dr. Chan: Oh, I have stories on my end.

Anish: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Because I remember calling you and you were on some cruise ship.

Anish: I was. I was on cruise ship.

Dr. Chan: I just hear all the screaming in the background, like, "Anish, Anish. Hey." Yeah.

Anish: I wasn't actually sure if I want to take the interview invite here. Obviously my parents, you know, obviously I did. And, you know, I came back, I stayed with my parents, and I came for the interview, and I just fell in love. You know, I forgot how much the University of Utah has meant to me growing up here, and, you know, seeing how all the med students were so friendly was something that I missed about the Utah culture. And, you know, once I kind of got over the med school, being overwhelmed by med school, all that stuff kind of came back to me and I just, you know, I love this place.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. I need to ask this. Hopkins, do you feel it was . . . because like, Hopkins has a very, you know, it's a very academically, very rigorous, very research-oriented institution. Do you feel the medical school curriculum was harder? Was it the same?

Anish: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Because I know a lot of pre-med students come out of Hopkins?

Anish: Yeah, that's very true. So I think Hopkins was very difficult, but med school was harder.

Dr. Chan: Okay. In what way?

Anish: Just the amount of material that you're expected to know and stay on top of. You know, it doesn't compare to what I was expected of being undergrad.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. Par, what are your thoughts about med school looking back?

Parvathi: It was a great time. I honestly really enjoyed medical school. I feel like in undergrad, so I actually lived at home with my parents in undergrad. I just felt kind of like I just commuted to school, and . . .

Dr. Chan: You went to main campus? At the U? Yeah.

Parvathi: Yes. I did undergrad here, and I just felt kind of disconnected a little bit. And I had these like very large classes, and, you know, trying to get into med school, I was balancing so many different activities. But once I got to med school, I feel like everything kind of came together. I found a group of people that I connected with on so many levels and who are now like, basically my family members. And so, yeah, I don't know. It's been like the greatest four years of my life.

Dr. Chan: That's awesome. So, unlike Anish though, who has lived outside of Utah, this is going to be what I perceive like in your adult formative years, the first time leaving.

Parvathi: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: How are you feeling? Are you nervous because you're going to this big East Coast city?

Parvathi: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: What are your thoughts?

Anish: And Ivy League.

Dr. Chan: And Ivy League. Yeah.

Parvathi: Okay. so, I mean, I lived outside of Utah before in my childhood, and it's like several different places, but now I'm going to be like an actual adult moving out on my own. So that's a little bit scary, but I also know that like, the program that I'll be, I'll be around people who I will also connect with, and I feel like I'm going to a good place, so I'm not that worried, and I know that I can make friends wherever, and Anish will be close by.

Dr. Chan: Are your families concerned?

Parvathi: About?

Dr. Chan: Living so far away from home.

Parvathi: Oh. So my parents moved to Dubai.

Dr. Chan: Okay. I forgot that. Your parents like to wander the planet. Yeah.

Parvathi: They're like half a world . . . yeah. My parents, they just move all the time.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Parvathi: So I don't know. They're like in different time zone [inaudible 00:39:09]. They think I can do it. They think I'll be okay.

Dr. Chan: All right. Anish your parents? Your family is excited?

Parvathi: I think they're kind of sad, but excited. You know, they're happy that me and Parvathi are going on to, you know, pursue our dreams at these great programs. But, you know, they're sad that they're losing us to halfway across the country. And my brother also did med school here and he also went to a program in New York. And so, you know, they're kind of used to the . . .

Dr. Chan: Pre-conditioned.

Parvathi: Yeah. They're used to their sons moving away.

Dr. Chan: All right. Okay. Last two minutes, last question. So help me understand, because I've been invited to it. I don't fully comprehend it. So what does this ceremony coming up, what does it mean? What does . . . . yeah.

Parvathi: We call it an engagement.

Anish: Dr. Chan's referring to me and Parvathi's engagement ceremony. It's coming up April 7th. It's kind of, you know, our parents have already talked to me, and Parvathi had talked before that about getting engaged. And, you know, now that we know that we're going to be so close to each other, we've gone through this great journey together, we felt like now was the best time to do this.

Dr. Chan: So right now you're not engaged at this moment?

Anish: Not technically.

Dr. Chan: Okay, not technically.

Anish: There's no ring on these fingers, Doctor.

Dr. Chan: But, so that's the ceremony, is there a ring exchange?

Anish: There will be a ring exchange.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. I'm just learning so much. This is fantastic. And then is there some sort of like a promise you make to each other? Or do your families get to talk? Do you get to talk? Or how does this work? For people who don't know.

Anish: [inaudible 00:40:53]. There's kind of a religious component to it, a religious ceremony, which is essentially like we're being promised to each other, betrothed to each other.

Dr. Chan: Could you talk about what religion is this?

Anish: So Hinduism.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right.

Anish: And we make an announcement kind of at the end that, you know, both of us are going to get married. So it's kind of . . . So in India, you know, people do this in a variety of ways. Sometimes people do it, you know, a couple months before, sometimes they do it the day before. It's just sort of, you know, tradition.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So is there a possibility . . . I'm not saying it's going to happen to you two, but like, can someone say no at this thing? Or you just simply don't show up if you're going to say no. Like you don't want to get engaged.

Anish: I really don't know the answer to that. I don't.

Dr: Chan: Okay. I'm just trying understand [inaudible 00:41:44] to get set in motion.

Parvathi: No, there's no like opportunity to object or anything.

Anish: [inaudible 00:41:51]

Dr. Chan: So is someone gets cold feet and they just . . you know what I'm saying?

Parvathi: That's too bad.

Dr. Chan: I'm sure it probably happened in history . . . Okay.

Anish: I mean, it probably happened.

Parvathi: It's probably happened before, but it better not happen.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Not in the recent memories in the Indian-American community within Utah.

Anish: Yeah, not that I know.

Dr. Chan: All right. All right. Fair enough. So you go through the ceremony, and then it sounds like it's kind of a prelude to the wedding itself, which will be in the future.

Anish: Yes.

Dr. Chan: So what does an Indian wedding look like? Does it have a special name or . . .

Anish: I don't think it has a special name.

Parvathi: I don't think so.

Anish: So it's tough.

Parvathi: Well, so we're from different regions of India. So I'm from a state in the south called [Kerala 00:42:33], and Anish's family is from North India. And weddings in those areas look very different. So where I'm from, it's a very simple ceremony.

Dr. Chan: Event.

Parvathi: Yeah, you go to the temple, you get married, and there's like a feast afterwards.

Dr. Chan: So I'm going to do a Dr. Chan hot take right now. So just like how both of you are negotiating, and you learned to talk about your different programs and rank lists, so you will also negotiate and talk about the wedding or no? Is that completely . . .

Parvathi: Negotiate?

Dr. Chan: As far as like if there's two kinds of different visions of the ceremony?

Parvathi: Oh, I don't think our visions have clashed yet. If they do, then I assume that I will just win.

Anish: [inaudible 00:43:20]

Dr. Chan: That's similar all across the world and all cultures.

Parvathi: Actually, so as far as our opinions go, I don't think ours officially matter anymore, because in the very beginning of this engagement planning process, both of us, they would ask us, you know, "What do you think of this person for photography or this for music?" And now we just don't hear about things.

Dr. Chan: So I'm fascinated. A few more questions. [inaudible 00:43:49] a few more questions. So, you know, like, when I asked my wife to marry me, I felt this overwhelming kind of weird societal pressure to ask the dad's permission, and there's all sorts of history tied into that, and you can argue if that's right and if that's proper. Does that exist? Anish, did you have to talk to Par's father?

Anish: Not really.

Parvathi: No. Basically our parents just talk together. Anish didn't really say very much at all. Neither of us did. I mean, our parents basically just talked it out amongst themselves, and that was it.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. Fair enough. Were you in the room for this discussion or no?

Anish: Oh, yes.

Parvathi: Yes.

Dr. Chan: Oh, okay. Was it super awkward?

Anish: Oh, very much so. Before that discussion, Parvathi and I had discussed engagement and getting married. So between us we had already kind of established that this is where we want the relationship to go. And then, individually we told both of our parents and our parents said, "Okay, well, you know, traditionally the parents talk to each other." And so we did and, you know, everything worked out.

Dr. Chan: Okay. My last question, I promise you.

Anish: Okay.

Dr. Chan: So, again, when I went through the marriage process, which is glorious, but super stressful, there was this weird thing where the bride's family pays for this, this and this. And the groom's family pays for this, this and this. Is that kind of the same case for you guys?

Parvathi: No, our parents basically just agreed to just split the costs.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Oh, I love it. I should have become Hindu. I love this. It's awesome.

Parvathi: We're just here to convert people. No, just kidding.

Dr. Chan: All right. Cool. Last question. So any advice to people thinking about going to med school or applying to med school, or they're thinking about taking that next step and doing the couple's match together? What would you say to them?

Parvathi: If you're thinking about going to med school, just ask yourself, you know, "Am I willing and prepared to put my entire life and effort and spend literally all of my time into making myself the greatest doctor that I can be?" And if the answer is no, and you can think of any other profession that you can go into, then don't go to medical school. But if you can, then do it. By all means, give it a shot. You know, it's okay if you don't get in your first time. Lots of people don't. But don't let that stop you. And yes, couples match. If you find the right guy, lock it down.

Anish: Just sort of talking about taking the next leap and couples matching, you know, one of the things that really caused us to hesitate was, you know, there's no going back on this decision. Like once we submit that rank list, like that's it. We've locked things together, and it really, this whole experience in medical school has taught me that it's okay to take the next leap because sometimes it may not work out, but sometimes it will be the best thing that's ever happened to you.

Dr. Chan: Oh, they're holding hands. It's very sweet. I love it. The displays of affections. It's great. Oh, and then, I just got a text message from one of our listeners, Anish. Are there any Taco Bells close to Beth Israel?

Anish: There aren't. Okay. I've mapped this out, and there are no Taco Bells close.

Dr. Chan: Oh, what are you going to do?

Parvathi: Thank goodness.

Anish: That's true. I'm probably going to lower LDL and then be very sad.

Dr. Chan: Okay. All right. I am so happy for both of you. This is so exciting. I truly hope you come back one day. I'm sure your families want that too. Well, at least Anish's.

Parvathi: Mine will probably be somewhere else.

Dr. Chan: Yours, somewhere in the world, exploring the world. But this is exciting. I'm excited for both you and this a beautiful journey. So thank you.

Parvathi: Thanks, Dr. Chan.

Anish: Thanks, Dr. Chan.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school. A production of The Scope Health Sciences Radio online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Chan: What is it like to become the first official couple in your class? How soon do you start thinking about couples matching for residency when dating? What is the most important aspect when couples matching? Finally, how does it feel to have your parents meet for the very first time on match day? Today on Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, I interview Madison and Noah, a successful couples match and recent graduates here at the University of Utah School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world, this is Talking Admissions and Med Student Life, with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Well, welcome to another edition of Talking Admissions and Med Student Life. I've got two great guests today, Madison and Noah. Hello.

Madison: Hey.

Noah: Hi, Dr. Chan.

Dr. Chan: Fourth-year medical students, soon to be full-fledged MDs. So let's start from the beginning. There's a reason why I'm having you both on today. You met in medical school. We were just talking about that. Where did you guys meet for the first time?

Noah: So we didn't really know each other at all. I think the place where we really first started to get to know each other and really started to bond is we were just kind of coincidentally put in the same anatomy lab group and that was where everything started.

Madison: Yeah. The first time we ever spoke was at this bar downtown during orientation week, but it was just like a really . . . I asked you about having Celiac disease because you were drinking a cider instead of a beer and it was like a two-second conversation. Then the next day, we found out our anatomy groups and we were both group eight along with two other of our classmates. We both grew up out West. I'm from Salt Lake City originally. Noah's from Boise, Idaho. We bonded about going away for undergrad and then coming back here to the West for medical school.

Dr. Chan: So, when you say anatomy lab, what does that mean for people that aren't familiar with that?

Madison: Yeah.

Noah: Yeah. So for most people when they enter medical school, I think most medical schools do it. Sometime within your first year, usually within your first semester at The U, for the semester that you're here, they kind of do this intensive anatomy education to give you a baseline in anatomy. You're paired off into groups of four or five-ish, and everyone's assigned a cadaver body that they dissect together and they kind of work from the outside in and kind of go by organ system. And it's just a really great way to have hands-on learning and learn together as a group and get to know your classmates.

Madison: Yeah. Our cadaver, we had one of the few female cadavers. I don't know what it is, but it's mostly male bodies. Ours was female, and we named her Beatrice. I think Chaz D. maybe named her Beatrice, I don't know.

Dr. Chan: One of your fellow . . .

Madison: One of our fellow classmates who was in our group. We called her Miss B. and she was an awesome lady. I think we still talk about her all the time and kind of what a gift she gave us by donating her body. She had bright pink nail polish on, which is something I'll never forget. It was really cool to get to know her.

Dr. Chan: And now, did either of you have anatomy before, or was this kind of leading up to it? When I go out and talk to premedical students, there's this perception that anatomy is really different, it's really hard. Like what was your experience?

Noah: I had not had a lot of anatomy. The only thing I'd ever dissected was a cat and a shark in undergrad, which is pretty different. I don't know about Maddie.

Madison: Yeah. So Noah and I both went to schools that actually didn't offer anatomy. They had other pre-med requirements, but it wasn't something he got, which I know is very different from BYU and The U, where you do have these amazing anatomy courses. So I was nervous I was going to be behind, because people had TA'd these classes and stuff for years, but it ended up being fine. We weren't quite as good at the dissecting. Dr. Morgan, he goes around and he pins like different structures on different bodies, and the very first quiz, our body was wrapped up in plastic because there was nothing identifiable.

Dr. Chan: You did not have the most precise dissection.

Noah: We did not. We found out way after the fact, because we were still friendly with a couple of the TAs that helped us out, that secretly they would make fun of our body and our horrible dissection job after the fact when they'd all pow-wow.

Madison: Disclaimer, we're not going into surgery.

Dr. Chan: Good to know. I think that will be the first question our listeners will think of. So you meet in the gross anatomy lab. You're table mates. You're having this really cool experience together. Were you together right away, or did it take a while? Or were you the first couple in your class? How would you define that?

Noah: To put it on the record, we were the first couple in the class. Very proud of that.

Madison: It was a little scandalous, actually.

Noah: We got a lot of warnings from upper classmen, "Don't date your med school classmates."

Madison: There was actually a pact in our class of people who were like, "We're not going to date or have anything with anyone in your class," because it was supposed to be like a really bad idea.

Noah: Everyone said, "Don't date your classmates because then when you inevitably break up, it's going to be really awkward because it's not a very big class." I think the first thing that we kind of bonded over is we had a really similar sense of humor. I think we noticed right away that we were laughing a lot in anatomy lab.

Madison: The other groups hated us, I think. We were very loud.

Dr. Chan: It sounds like you're having a lot of fun.

Madison: And it's a very serious task. You're dissecting this body of someone who has passed away, and it's a gift in that sense, but we also kept it very light. And you deal with a lot of bodily fluids and a lot of bodily functions in anatomy lab, and we accidentally perfed our colon, which was not a great thing to happen. So, yeah, we had a lot of fun and would come in the weekends too to like study extra. We'd hang out then, and then we just started studying a lot together.

Dr. Chan: So, Noah, you talked about how upper classmates warned you there could be significant drawbacks for dating a classmate, but it sounds like there are significant strengths as well. What are some of those? It sounds like you studied together?

Noah: Yeah. I have to be honest. I can't think of a single negative part of our relationship that came from the fact that we were classmates. I struggle to really think of a single one. It's really nice to come home to someone or to hang out with someone, if you're not living together, who gets it. You can have really supportive significant others, husbands and wives who you can tell them what med school is like and they can do their best and they can say, "I'm here for you 100%."

But at the end of the day, it's really nice to have someone who's going through the same crazy experience and so they just get it. They know that you need to study. They know that your hours are going to be crazy. If you have a question about a topic that's really confusing to you, maybe it's something they're really good at. I think that was kind of one of the other reasons why Maddie and I started studying a lot together is I'm terrible at the things that she's really good at and I think vice versa is true in a lot of cases.

Dr. Chan: So you complement each other well.

Madison: We always joke that we would have gotten like a 280 on boards if we could take it together, which was not our real score at all.

Dr. Chan: That's a very novel strategy.

Madison: For those who haven't take boards yet, 280, I don't even know if you can get that score. Probably you can, someone can. But yeah, in terms of how the logistics, Noah was in a really long relationship in undergrad that ended right before medical school. So even though we were hanging out all the time, I didn't know if he was like damaged and hung up on this girl and . . .

Dr. Chan: Do they still use the term rebound, rebound relationship?

Madison: Yeah. I have a very awesome group of very protective girlfriends from undergrad, and they were very wary of this. One of my friends in particular, Kelly, I went and saw her for a couple days during the fall. And I was telling her about Noah, and she was like, "No, you're going to be his rebound. Don't go there. It's going to be really terrible." You can talk about this. I don't want to steal your thunder.

Noah: No, there's no thunder to steal. It's true. You were a rebound, but you were like a forever rebound.

Dr. Chan: Oh, I love it, the forever rebound.

Noah: Yeah. I think I definitely took my time as far as actually establishing it as an official relationship. I think we both knew that we liked spending time together and that we were a really good pair, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't turning her into a rebound. I wanted to make sure I was ready.

Madison: He went on a practice date with another girl. Tell him about that. It was a [inaudible 00:09:01] date?

Dr. Chan: Was this with another classmate?

Madison: No, it wasn't a classmate. It was just like this rando.

Noah: It was an OkCupid. She was a really nice girl, and I felt really bad for her because I really was kind of using her to see if I was over my ex, which was not super fair.

Dr. Chan: So, if you still had skills, could you still have conversation, if you could go on a date?

Noah: If for the entire date, I was thinking about my ex, then that would be . . . I hope she found someone. She was a nice girl.

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right. So let's jump back a few years. I'm excited to have you here today because I remember distinctly talking to both of you on the phone, welcoming you to our medical school, and I was beyond delighted that both of you chose to come here. I know both of you got into other schools. Looking back, obviously it was the right decision. You met each other and you're headed towards very wonderful fields, which we'll get into, but thoughts about coming to Salt Lake City. Madison, you used to live here, so coming back from the East Coast, Noah, you're from Idaho, coming here, what were your thoughts about your decision and from there?

Madison: Yeah. It was a really hard decision for a couple reasons. I grew up here, literally blocks away from The U's campus, and I went all the way to Philadelphia for undergrad. Most of my friends just stayed in that area, so moved to New York or down to D.C. or stayed in Philly. I kind of saw myself wanting to like go back out there. I had the option to, but when I kind of looked at . . . people define value as different things, right?

When I actually kind of sat down and looked at the financials with my parents, I was still in state at Utah and just kind of like the quality of education, I wasn't able to convince myself that paying for a private medical school when I had a really good in-state option was going to be the right choice. I didn't want to feel financially pressured to pursue something really lucrative, and then I went to second look date here and we heard from Dr. Morton and some of the other main educators here.

I felt confident that I was going to be able to succeed coming out of here, and I also saw where the fourth years are going, and they had really impressive institutions that they were going to and I didn't feel like just because I was going back to Utah, I wouldn't be able to get back to the East Coast or the West Coast for residency.

Noah: I don't have a lot to add. Mine was pretty similar. I went to undergrad in St. Louis, and so I was in a similar situation of going somewhere kind of out in the other areas of the country or whether to come back home. I remember when I came here for my interview day, it was just a really positive experience overall, both at the school, and then I also had some friends who were in the city, in the area.

Graduating from college is kind of a hard thing, especially when you go away, because the chances you end up in the same way as the people you've bonded with is really low. So I wanted to make sure that I was going to be in a place where I felt like I had a support system both within the school and outside of the school, and I wanted to go somewhere where I would feel comfortable. Salt Lake City just felt a lot like Boise to me. It kind of felt like home, but it was still away. It just ended up being the right fit.

I second everything Maddie said about you look at the match list and people are able to do incredible things out of this medical school. So I didn't really have any concerns about getting to where I wanted to go out of here.

Dr. Chan: All right. Well, let's talk about where you're headed. So when you started medical school, did you have an idea that you would choose the fields you ended up choosing? Help people understand how you came to the decision. Again, for people in the process of applying or maybe in the middle of medical school, it's very mysterious. Like how do doctors choose their fields? What were your journeys?

Noah: For me, I came into medical school and I . . .

Madison: I'm just like laughing, because what he wanted to do was like so not right for him, and I think he feels the same way about me.

Dr. Chan: What did you start with?

Noah: For some reason, I had it in my head that I was going to be a pediatric oncologist, that I was going to treat kid cancer and that that was what was what I was going to do for the rest of my life.

Madison: He wanted to be a chick magnet. Like curing little kids with cancer, just like . . .

Dr. Chan: I don't know if pediatric oncologists have higher rates of attracting members of the opposite sex.

Madison: I'm sure they do. We can do a study. That can be my residency study project.

Dr. Chan: You can do a double blind.

Noah: Yeah. I was so sure that that was what I wanted to do. I did the pre-clinical stuff. The cancer science just didn't really excite me the way that I thought it would, and then I hit clinical rotations. Peds was not a good fit.

Dr. Chan: What happened? What was your experience? Was this a rotation on pediatric oncology or just pediatrics in general?

Noah: Just pediatrics in general.

Madison: He didn't make it to oncology, just like nixed it at the kids level.

Noah: Stopped right there. Yeah, they say that especially when you hit your third year of medical school is when you start to get a feel for the different tribes of medicine, where a lot of the stereotypes you hear about the specialties, they came from somewhere, and it's because a lot of these specialties attract certain personality types. Most people, I think, pick their specialty . . . they have to like the science. They have to like the day to day, but more than anything, they have to like the people and you have to find "your people."

Peds just wasn't my people. I just felt like I wasn't connecting with them the way I wanted to and I wasn't connecting with my colleagues the way that I wanted to. So I kind of had a crisis, and I wasn't sure what to do. I thought I was going to be a surgeon during surgery. I thought I was going to be an orthopedic surgeon for a week. I ended up settling on anesthesiology.

Dr. Chan: Settling.

Noah: Settling because it's the best field and I fell in love with it. The people were great. It was a perfect fit for my personality type. It was all the science I wanted in a field. It was all the procedures I wanted in a field. I for sure was not settling, but that was the specialty that I found was best for me.

Dr. Chan: Were you able to do a rotation in anesthesiology during third year, or did you have to wait until the beginning of fourth year? Or how did that work out? Or just during surgery, were you just kind of more focused on what was going on near the head?

Madison: You kind of found it during OB first.

Noah: Yeah. I found it during OB. I remember peeking around the curtain and being like, "I wonder what that guy or gal is doing."

Madison: He looks way better than the guy pulling out the baby.

Noah: They're having fun back there. Then I kind of paid attention to them during surgery. And then at the end of third year, when I thought that anesthesiology might be a good fit for me, I did the rotation here, and it was kind of like a confirmatory.

Dr. Chan: So you found your tribe?

Noah: I did find my tribe.

Dr. Chan: Really positive experience?

Noah: Absolutely.

Dr. Chan: Wow. That's great. Cool. Madison?

Madison: Yeah. Oh, I was all over the place. Holy cow. I wrote my med school admissions essay -- this is something that all my college friends still give me like major crap for because they all read it -- about like wanting to be a primary care doctor in a small town, which is hilarious because I don't want to do primary care. Literally, being in a tiny town gives me so much anxiety I don't know where I came up with this idea.

So then I worked for an orthopedic surgeon for a year during my gap year, and I thought surgery was really cool, orthopedics was really cool. They're dealing with these healthy patients for the most part. It's pretty happy medicine. I came into med school thinking maybe I want to do that. I did a summer of orthopedic surgery research at Hospital for Special Surgery in New York and decided then that I thought it was a really cool field, but I didn't necessarily want to do the surgery part of it.

Dr. Chan: It was like standing in the OR for long periods of time?

Madison: Yeah. It was kind of like at that level of orthopedic surgery, you're so specialized that you're not even like . . . it's not even that you just take care of all joints, it's like you only take care of knees or you only take care of hands or you only take care of shoulders, and I wanted to be more of a generalist. So then I was like maybe general surgery would be a good fit, because you get to be a little bit more wider in your scope of kind of what you're dealing with in the body.

I went into third year -- Noah will tell you -- being like gung ho about surgery. I had found awesome surgical mentors here at Utah, shout out to Dr. Fenton and Dr. Penucci in plastics. They were incredible. I got some really great research opportunities with them. I actually hit my surgery rotation and I realized that even though I liked the research of surgery and I liked the idea of it, I was not happy in the OR. I was not thriving. I started to like try to avoid cases by like volunteering to do like busy work.

Dr. Chan: The floor work.

Madison: Yeah. There was a great intern who I worked with, who actually graduated from Utah as well, and I just saw how excited she was to go to the OR for like anything. It didn't matter the time of the day or how tired she was.

Dr. Chan: Is this Ryan?

Madison: Yeah, who also was a couples match.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Madison: I looked at her and I was amazed by her, and I also realized that I wasn't like her, which was a scary thing to realize. But then the backstory to all this is that, here at Utah, we have these groups called CMC groups and it's this kind of tribe that you get your first year. And these are all led by a physician. Dr. Chan leads one. My CMC leader, who kind of teaches you about how to do physical exams and things like that, was an ER doctor named Jerry Doyle. He and I always got along really well.

Dr. Chan: He loves it when students shadow him and come in for shifts.

Madison: Yeah. He was like so welcoming. So I think, little known to me, I was kind of being indoctrinated with emergency medicine from day one of medical school. I just didn't realize it. So after I did surgery, I sat down with Dr. Doyle at the hospital Starbucks at The U. I had a list. I listed . . . this is what I would suggest to do if people have questions about what to do, what specialty they're going to choose is I wrote down on a piece of paper everything I hate about medicine in general, like these are the activities I don't like. I don't like rounding. I don't like clinic. I don't like all these things.

And then on the other side, I wrote what I love. I love taking care of marginalized populations. I love doing a gazillion things at once. I like procedures. I love being part of a team. I don't like the OR. I found that out. I sat down and I just read this to him. He was like, "That was me when I was a third year." So I just started shadowing more and more in the ER, met Megan Fix, who's been an incredible mentor to me as well, as well as Katie Wells, who's now a PGY3 here. I can't say enough good things about the ER mentorship here.

Dr. Chan: It's a very strong program.

Madison: Yeah. It's an amazing program, amazing residents. I've never looked back. I was like, "This is home."

Dr. Chan: Emergency medicine.

Madison: Emergency medicine, all in. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: We've got emergency medicine and anesthesiology. When on your radar did you starting about the couples match? When did that kind of start entering your consciousness? Third year?

Madison: Before we were dating.

Dr. Chan: Before you were dating?

Madison: Just kidding.

Noah: That's a really good question. I think as soon as we started dating. If you start a relationship in medical school with someone else who's in medicine, I think you can't help but your first thoughts go to couples match.

Madison: Everyone in med school is like a planner. You plan years in advance for stuff.

Noah: So I think as soon as we realized that this was something serious, which was not super long after we started dating, we started thinking about it. As far as logistically when we started really thinking about how this is going to work and how we were going to do this, I would say probably third year is when things started to get really real as far as like, "If you do this and I do this, what is that going to look like?"

Even before we had officially settled on what we're doing, like the week that I wanted to do orthopedics or like, "Would you be okay coming with me wherever I match?"; Or when Maddie wanted to do plastics, it was like, "Would I be okay going wherever she wants to go?" because those are two super competitive specialties. So you start kind of thinking about what that would look like and if it's okay.

Madison: There were also like major logistics that we chose to do differently from other couples in our class I knew. Noah and I knew that we were both pretty competitive people with ourselves and with other people. So we made the decision not to share our Step scores with each other.

Dr. Chan: Oh, wow.

Madison: Yeah. That's like a big deal, right?

Dr. Chan: So the entire time you've been together, you don't know how each other did?

Madison: No.

Noah: I think that we could like guess a range just based on the conversations we've had, but I have no idea of what the number is.

Dr. Chan: I remember my classmates, and it was not just Step scores. It was just grades overall. Some were just I would say over-sharers. You just knew exactly what they do.

Madison: Yeah, and we never wanted to be those people. I know, from Noah's past relationship, they were both pre-med, and it was a little competitive between them. We wanted to stay out of that, and we wanted to be like only supportive. We would still study together and all that jazz. We just never wanted to open our envelope and have the feeling of like, "Well, if Maddie only would have scored five points higher . . ."

Dr. Chan: If she only studied for five more hours.

Madison: Which isn't even true, but it's just like you never want to have those lingering questions in your brain. So we sat down with Dr. Stevenson here, and we wrote them on a little sheet of paper and slid it across the table to him.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Madison: He literally lifted them up and he just was like, "We're good. You guys are okay." And we applied very broadly too.

Dr. Chan: Before we get to that, so creating your fourth year schedule, did you do away rotations together? Walk us through that.

Noah: It was a little different for both of us. Maddie, because she decided to do emergency, she's required to do a couple of away rotations. So we knew right off the bat that no matter what, she was going to have to go and do them. So we kind of thought this is a perfect opportunity for us to kind of get our foot in the door in some of the bigger cities that we were hoping to maybe match in.

Madison: Compared to a lot of classmates, we really didn't want to stay in the West. So we didn't apply anywhere around here. We didn't apply in most western states. We were really focused on California and the East Coast and a couple dots in between.

Dr. Chan: Did you interview here?

Madison: We applied here and everything. But we were pretty up front with our departments too about wanting to move away.

Dr. Chan: I think it's always a good move to interview with your home institution.

Madison: Oh, yeah. I mean it's a slap in the face if you don't, and they're obviously the people who helped you find your specialty. We also applied and did our away rotations. I did one in New York City and one in Los Angeles, and Noah also did one in Los Angeles.

Noah: Yeah. It was actually just kind of by luck. I got my third choice of date range for my away rotation in Los Angeles, and Maddie got maybe her second choice. I don't think it was her first choice. But either way, just as a fluke, they ended up overlapping perfectly. So we were able to actually go out to Los Angeles and do our away rotations together and survived a real estate scam and a totaled car.

Madison: It was a low point.

Dr. Chan: Real estate scam, did you have like an Airbnb disaster?

Madison: Well, Noah can talk about this.

Noah: I'm going to put this all on myself because it was 100% my fault. It was a situation where it was like a Craigslist thing.

Dr. Chan: I didn't think your generation used Craigslist anymore.

Madison: We've had good luck. I found my housing for New York via Craigslist, and we've done it in the past when we did research and have had really good luck, except for this time.

Noah: I went to L.A. during the summer between first and second year to do research, and I did it exactly the same. It all worked out great. It was going the same way this time. It turned into a thing where we were leaving to drive out there and I had been trying to contact this guy just like, "Hey, we're going out there. Just wanted to make sure you're going to be there."

Madison: Driving 11 hours.

Noah: Radio silence the day before we were leaving. I was like, "That's kind of weird, but what we can we do now?"

We stopped over in Vegas overnight, and we woke up the next morning, the day we were supposed to meet him and move in and he goes, "I was waiting for you all day yesterday, and it's now going to cost you $700 more and you can't move in for another week." I just remember looking at Maddie and being like, "Ruh-roh." So we got to the apartment complex. We showed this guy's picture around. No one had ever seen him before.

Madison: It was bad.

Dr. Chan: You have these Utah license plates. People think you're like these little country bumpkins.

Madison: Yeah. I was literally scheduled to start the next day in the ER, and we were homeless in Los Angeles.

Dr. Chan: Well, you had a car.

Madison: We did. We had two cars at this point.

Noah: We booked a few days at the Gardena Terrace Inn, #DontStayThere.

Madison: I like went on this app on my phone, it's like Hotels Tonight. It's actually a great thing. You should definitely download it for interview season. But I found like the cheapest one closest to the county hospital I was working at. It was like $70 a night. I was like, "That's mostly in the budget." It was really bad.

Dr. Chan: Is this big county?

Madison: This is Harbor.

Dr. Chan: Harbor County.

Madison: Noah slept with this like hunting knife under his pillow.

Noah: My inner-Idahoan came out.

Madison: It was really not great. I got up in the morning and put on my scrubs and went to work. We stayed there for three nights.

Noah: I will say to our credit, despite all of this, we were never really at each other's throats. We got frustrated with the situation, but I don't think we ever took it out on each other. To this day every once in a while, Maddie will be like, "Hey, Noah, it would be really nice to have that $1,000 back." I'll pay her back for it eventually.

Dr. Chan: You sent this individual that you never saw again $1,000?

Madison: $2,000.

Noah: Yeah. That's kind of the point of contention. We paid upfront, which was a bad choice.

Dr. Chan: Well, I won't dwell on that because both of your faces are . . .

Madison: Sad.

Dr. Chan: It sounds like, and I've gathered this from talking to other people who went through the couples match, you targeted large cities with multiple programs, so just in case one of you matched in one program, there may be a neighboring institution.

Madison: Yeah. Given what we're looking for, if anyone's familiar with emergency medicine, emergency medicine is a little different than other specialties in that you have . . . all specialties have community, county, and academic programs. Those are three different flavors of style. The interesting thing about EM is that you have hybrid programs that are county and academic, which is kind of what I was interested in.

Then you also have really, really amazing just straight county or straight academic or straight community programs. So places that might not be as "desirable" for specialties like anesthesia are actually really awesome training experiences for emergency medicine just given that you want to be in a place that has a lot of acuity and a lot of diversity . . .

Dr. Chan: A lot of diversity in patient conditions, illnesses, trauma . . .

Madison: Socioeconomic status, all of the above. You also want to be in a place where you don't necessarily have tons of other services trying to necessarily . . . I don't want to say hone in because they're always valuable and you can always learn a lot from them, but that you are able to kind of like direct your learning when opportunities arise in the ER for that learning. So, basically, getting back to the point, we were looking for places with multiple programs, that would be both beneficial to what we were looking for in a residency program, which was hard.

Noah: I don't have a whole lot to add. But it was kind of interesting when we were trying to build our list of places to apply to and interview at, because the programs for anesthesia that are maybe less desirable or ones that are not super competitive are the ones that Maddie was super excited, and then a lot of times kind of like the bigger, powerhouse academic programs that tend, not always, but tend to be stronger for anesthesiology were the programs that oftentimes don't have a great emergency reputation.

Dr. Chan: Interesting.

Noah: So we were looking at kind of like opposite things. In a lot of ways, that was nice because it gave us a lot of permutations of programs within bigger cities.

Dr. Chan: Would you only interview at a program where the other person was also in there to interview? Or did you just kind of if you got an interview in New York or Philadelphia or Boston, you'd just immediately interview there? What was your strategy?

Noah: So it kind of gets into playing the game of the couples match. You kind of have to play the game for residency application in general, but especially in the couples match it's all about communication. So whenever one of us would get an interview offer at an institution, they would immediately send an email to the department saying, "My partner is Noah, and he's applying in anesthesiology. He hasn't heard back yet."

Madison: And he loves your program, most important part.

Dr. Chan: Emoji smiley face.

Noah: Then there are also sometimes where the other person would send out an email to all the programs within the city that they had applied to that the other person had been offered an interview saying, "My partner is interviewing in the city. I haven't heard back from you and I'm interested." Just really any concrete excuse to reach out to program directors and say, "I'm interested in your program."

Dr. Chan: Do you feel that was successful? Did the programs respond to that?

Madison: Oh, yeah.

Noah: Hugely successful.

Madison: I can only think of a couple ones where it didn't work.

Noah: Like 80% to 90% of the time it was successful.

Dr. Chan: So there was definitely, you feel, communication between the anesthesiology department and the ER department about what was going on?

Madison: Yeah. I think it was happening, for sure. I also think that those two departments are departments that play really well together. EM residents across the country rotate on anesthesia for airways, and anesthesia rotates in the emergency room at least for a couple months during residency. So they're in contact, and I think that was really helpful. The other thing that was good was to play up any and all connection to the area, to the school, to anything.

Noah and I were both successful in getting interviews at our alma maters and getting each other interviews at our alma maters, which was really fun. I have family in the Midwest. I really tried to play that up to help get interviews in Chicago. Noah has long lost relatives in New York City. He played that up. So just anything that you can say to say, "Yes, I'm coming from University of Utah. It's a little bit of a medically isolated area in that we're the only game in town, but please, please, please look at me. I'm willing to . . ."

Dr. Chan: Move to the East Coast.

Madison: Yeah, move to the East Coast, move the West Coast, move wherever.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. So leading up to your match list, was it a negotiation between the two of you, or did both of you just kind of know independently, kind of came to the same conclusion? How did that work?

Noah: So I think what we ended up doing is we both built our own independent rank lists as we were going on interviews, but we were talking to each other all along the way.

Madison: Like after every interview we called each other.

Noah: It wasn't like a big secret, but we were still trying to rank them semi-independently. And then when all was said and done . . . maybe not when it was all done, but towards the end of interview season, we started to kind of sit down and get an idea of what our picture would look like as far as our rank lists. I think that our main goal was to find a few programs that we both liked enough that they could be our top programs. We kind of addressed those first, and we said, "We would both be happy with these. These are both strong training programs for us"

Then we kind of worked our way down to ones where we had to make some compromises where either I liked a program and it just wasn't a good fit for Maddie or vice versa and really tried hard to make it as fair as we could, where if we did one that was unfair to me, we did another one that was unfair to Maddie and just built our rank lists in a way that felt fair, so that not one person was getting everything they wanted and the other person not getting anything they wanted.

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. All right. So you submitted your match lists. What was it like between that day and then match day? That's a month, right?

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: What were you going through? What were you thinking?

Madison: I started on the ICU.

Dr. Chan: Kind of second thoughts?

Madison: So it was pretty . . . I don't know. I was kept really busy, so I think that definitely helped. We kept it a secret from everyone, what our official ranking was, which was really hard because I tell my mom everything and she was actually really mad.

Dr. Chan: Hello, Madison's mom. Hope you're listening to this.

Madison: We also made . . . so on the interview trail, I knew that this was probably the most we'd ever be traveling in such a short amount of time probably in our entire lives. So Noah and I, we took these little like felt letter boards around with us to every single -- they're like just really small, like a placard size -- to every interview and we made a different sign for that location. And then we had my friend, who works at BuzzFeed Video, she turned it into a YouTube video that was like 15 minutes long. So that was really fun to kind of just build up the excitement and remember. We both sat down and watched it when she sent it to us, and we were like, "I can't believe we made it."

Noah: We're BuzzFeed celebrities.

Madison: Not quite.

Dr. Chan: Can we publish that? Can we do a link?

Madison: Yeah, sure.

Dr. Chan: All right. Well, I'll get that afterwards, yeah.

Madison: We were just like . . . watching it, I was just like, "I can't believe that we did that many interviews." I did 20 interviews.

Dr. Chan: Twenty, wow.

Madison: Noah did 25, 26.

Noah: Twenty-five.

Madison: Twenty-five.

Dr. Chan: That's a lot.

Madison: It was a lot.

Dr. Chan: How much did you budget? What does that look like?

Madison: With or without the L.A. money wheel? No, I'm kidding.

Dr. Chan: Using Craigslist or not using Craigslist.

Madison: Sallie Mae does residency relocation loans. Because we were doing double the interviews, we probably took out double what our single application classmates took out. So I took out $10,000 to pay, and that's probably . . . I don't think I could have done it cheaper. I really don't. I surfed on so many couches and ate so many turkey cheese roll-ups, I don't know if I could have done it much less expensive.

Noah: Mine was about the same. As we were going through the process after the match lists were submitted and we were just kind of looking back on everything that happened, we were like, "Man, where did all of that money go?"

Madison: Oh my gosh, this was a good story.

Noah: It goes to flights. People would guess that flights are just expensive. But when we added up between the two of us Lyft and Uber, we took 298 ride shares.

Madison: No, no, 198.

Noah: Wasn't it 200?

Madison: No, it was 198. That's still a lot though.

Dr. Chan: That's still a lot.

Madison: 198, like that's insane.

Noah: We were like, oh, that's where all our money went.

Madison: At the time, we're like, "It's really cheap. It's only $8 here, $9 here," and then it adds up so fast.

Dr. Chan: Aside from airfare, Uber and Lyft were your biggest expenses.

Madison: Uber and Lyft. There's this credit card now apparently that you can apply that gives you like 4% back on Uber and Lyft. You should consider getting that for your interview season. This is not a sponsored post, but yeah.

Dr. Chan: I'll talk to the Dean's Office. So match day, the night before match, slept like a baby, nervous?

Madison: I slept great.

Noah: Yeah, I think we actually both slept. Yeah, we slept fine.

Madison: Noah was one of our class presidents. So he was like really busy with the actual like logistics stuff of setting up for match day.

Noah: Which was really nice. It also kept me distracted. I had to get there really early and just set things up and do the decorations and stuff, which really helped to just kind of dampen the anxiety a little bit.

Madison: I think Monday was actually a bigger deal for us, because anesthesia does . . . you can either do a one plus three program, where you might be separated for your intern year, or you can do an all-inclusive four-year program. So we had three and four-year programs ranked, so there was a small possibility that he would either be separated for our first year in a different area, or he would not match for that first year. So Monday we found out that he was fully matched.

Dr. Chan: That gave you a hint or no?

Madison: No, it didn't. It meant that he didn't have to scramble somewhere.

Noah: Yeah, I would agree with that. Monday was probably the most anxiety provoking, because I had this nightmare that I would have to scramble for my preliminary year position or whatever. So once we knew that we had both fully matched, we knew that it was super unlikely that we had gone really far down our list, and we knew that . . . I don't know what I'm saying.

Madison: That's okay.

Noah: We knew that we had been fully matched.

Dr. Chan: You'd be together. You wouldn't be separate.

Noah: We wouldn't be separate for probably more than a year was what we knew from that.

Dr. Chan: When you're setting up match day, you see the envelopes on the table, no temptation. Isn't there someone guarding them?

Noah: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: You were there early enough, though.

Noah: I was. Yeah, I had to watch them like put them in each of the individual things.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, alphabetical.

Noah: It was definitely nerve-wracking. I didn't really want to get tackled by student affairs, personnel, and get taken out on match day, spend it in the hospital and find out later where I'd matched.

Dr. Chan: So your families were both there?

Madison: Yeah. It was actually the first meeting of the parents.

Dr. Chan: Really?

Madison: Yes.

Noah: As if the anxiety wasn't high enough.

Dr. Chan: Did you do like a dinner the night before?

Madison: The night after match day we did.

Dr. Chan: Okay. So the parents met for the first time?

Noah: They did, yeah. Everything went well. Everyone got along great.

Madison: Then my little sister was there, and then Noah's best friend was there.

Dr. Chan: All right. So they have all those little speeches. They're kind of delaying it, delaying it. They cut the little red ribbon. Was there a red ribbon this year? I couldn't tell, I was near the back.

Noah: I think so.

Dr. Chan: They cut the red ribbon. You go up there and get your envelopes. What happens next?

Madison: I refused to open my envelope.

Noah: Oh my god, she was driving me crazy.

Madison: I like got it and I was like . . . I didn't know this, but someone was filming it unbeknownst to be and they like put it on the University of Utah total Instagram page, and there's just me doing this nervous dance like I have to pee being like, "I can't open it. I can't open it."

Noah: It took Maddie like three minutes to open her envelope. I was going nuts.

Madison: Some really mean person commented, "Has she ever opened an envelope before?"

Noah: That is the sane question.

Dr. Chan: Was that person Noah?

Madison: No, it wasn't. It was some other meanie.

Dr. Chan: Did you open your envelope before Madison?

Madison: He did.

Dr. Chan: So it was not a simultaneous event.

Noah: Thank god you were matched with an anesthesiologist where you have to be patient.

Madison: I eventually opened it, and we did look at it at the same time, but it just took me a little extra time.

Dr. Chan: So where are you going, and how does it feel?

Noah: We both matched at the same hospital.

Madison: In the best city in the entire world.

Noah: We're going to NYU in Manhattan.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Madison: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Fantastic. So I assume that was near the top?

Madison: Yeah.

Noah: Absolutely.

Madison: It has been on my bucket list my entire life to live in New York City.

Dr. Chan: New York City, yes. Awesome.

Noah: NYU was actually my very first anesthesia interview of the entire season. I went there, and I absolutely loved it. I remember I called Maddie after and I said, "I love everything about it. This is exactly what I want."

Dr. Chan: Let's talk about why did you like NYU? What attracted you to their program?

Noah: It was the people. It all comes down to the people. Obviously, it's an incredible medical institution with a great reputation, and even within the anesthesiology world NYU has a great reputation as well. But, for me, it came down to the people. I didn't appreciate it as much until I got further into the interview season, but you can tell so much about a program by how many residents you see in the hallways who are smiling.

So as I went on, I started to keep like a mental tally of how many residents I saw smiling during my interview day, because it's a really good indication of when people aren't really focused and kind of in the intense part of their work day, are they happy? Do they like being around the people that they're around? I'm pretty sure I told Maddie this on the phone after I left NYU. Everyone I saw was smiling. Everyone was happy. People seemed like they had a great quality of life.

Madison: The attending-resident relationship was you said . . . I remember you telling me it was a really good one there.

Noah: Yeah. The program leadership could not have been warmer. My interviews were very warm. It was very casual, and they wanted to get to know me. I was . . .

Madison: In New York, you think of it's more fast-paced, of course, but it's also East Coasters are a little different.

Noah: I also had these kind of talking points locked and loaded, where I would have to convince them about why I would be willing to go to New York, and I was ready to kind of sell that to them. I never really had to. Everyone was very open to it, and they said this was a great time to try something new and exciting. It was just a great . . . I feel like my entire interview process I was always comparing programs back to NYU.

Dr. Chan: Wow. Cool. Madison, why did you like NYU? Is it a three or four-year program?

Madison: Oh my gosh. It's a four-year program.

Dr. Chan: ER is kind of weird. It's like the only field I know that there's not really a [inaudible 00:43:31].

Madison: Yes. That really comes down to how much elective time you get. So NYU is a four-year program, which I actually wanted a four-year program because Noah's program would be four regardless. NYU Bellevue, what drew me to it was the history. I'm someone who has always believed that places hold meaning. That's why I picked the college I did. The history of Bellevue Hospital, it's the oldest public hospital in the United States.

There's actually a book that was recently published that I read about it before I matched or anything, but the history of Bellevue taking care of the most marginalized members of society in the most diverse city is just incredible. They were on the forefront of the AIDS crisis. They took care of immigrants, all the way to when Hurricane Sandy hit, how staff was carrying patients down in stretchers to evacuate them. I'm just so honored to now hopefully be starting my journey as an MD at such a storied hospital that everyone is so proud of the mission and the service to New York City.

Dr. Chan: The history and the legacy.

Madison: Yeah. So when I was talking about the programs before, like the academic and county hybrids, so at NYU, you get Bellevue, which is a true county program, but you also get Tisch, which is a private NYU hospital. So you get two very different populations there. Tisch gets more of the very complicated transplant cancer patients. Then Bellevue you get more of your bread and butter, emergency medicine, trauma. It's the only level one trauma center in Lower Manhattan.

I interviewed actually the day after the New York City subway bombing, and we toured the ICU, and there were people marching through the ICU with assault rifles, because the person who committed it as well as the victims went to Bellevue. It's a crazy, exciting place to be. It's where the Ebola patient went. So I'm excited for what's coming. It's going to be a cool place to train. Noah will get to be there too. We'll actually get to rotate on each other's services because we'll be at the same hospital.

Dr. Chan: That's fantastic.

Madison: Let the battle of the airways begin.

Dr. Chan: Battle of the airways. Who can intubate the best?

Madison: We intubate under worse conditions, I feel like. You do it more, though.

Dr. Chan: Tale as old as time, anesthesiology versus ER when it comes to intubation.

Madison: I still have a lot of friends there, which will be really fun to get to reconnect with them.

Noah: My dad actually grew up in New York, and he lived in New York for a long time. Even though he might not admit it, I think that somewhere deep down inside of him there's still that inner New Yorker that's transplanted in Idaho who's a little bit proud to have someone temporarily going back to the big city.

Dr. Chan: That's fantastic.

Madison: So many bagels. We're so excited.

Dr. Chan: Great restaurants. That's what I tell people. I've never lived in New York. I've visited New York a few times. I used to live on the East Coast. I lived in Washington, D.C. The thing about New York City that I love, if you want sushi on top of pizza at 2:00 in the morning, you can find someplace like that. Literally, the city never sleeps. There's just so much fun stuff to do.

Madison: If you're in a specialty that's 24 hours a day, what better place to be than a city that never shuts down?

Dr. Chan: Fantastic. Well, I'm so excited for both of you. We have graduation coming up in a few short weeks, and then you're off for your medical training. I can't believe you're going to be full-fledged MDs and practicing medicine.

Madison: They sent the offer letter. We have to have the letter that says like, yes, you're going to be a resident physician, this is your salary in order to show that to landlords to qualify for housing. And they sent me my letter and it said, "Madison Hunt, MD," and I was like, "Who's that person?"

Dr. Chan: It's so official looking.

Madison: I'm going to be looking over my shoulder for the next four years.

Noah: I don't know how long it's going to take before we actually feel like we've earned the MD title.

Madison: Never.

Noah: I think it's not going to be soon.

Dr. Chan: Well, I'm excited for you guys.

Madison: Thank you so much.

Dr. Chan: I'm so glad you came here to Utah. I'm so glad you guys found each other. I'm glad you found a field that you're passionate about. It's very obvious. I'm excited for your future patients because you guys are going to be great doctors.

Madison: Oh, thank you, Dr. Chan.

Noah: Thank you. That's nice to say.

Dr. Chan: We'll talk later.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Talking Admissions and Med Student Life with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school, a production of The Scope Health Sciences Radio online at thescoperadio.com.

Gretchen: A breast cancer diagnosis can feel like a body blow to anyone. Kimberly Myers, PhD, from the Penn State College of Medicine is here to tell us why one of her first responses to her own diagnosis was to meet with a professional photographer to document her body. That's coming up on The Scope.

Announcer: Medical news and research from the University of Utah physicians and specialists you can use for a happier and healthier life. You're listening to The Scope.

Gretchen: Hi, I'm Gretchen Case from the Division of Medical Ethics and Humanities at the University of Utah School of Medicine, and I'm here with Kimberly Myers. So my first question for you is why did you want to meet with a photographer? Why was that one of your first thoughts?

Dr. Myers: I think when one gets diagnosed with breast cancer one's mind goes just goes blank in many ways. But one of the things I did know was having had no photographs of my breasts, I wanted to know what I would look like after surgery. I knew that I had a very short window of time in which to get photographs, if I were going to do that. A friend of mine suggested Wendy Palmer, a professional photographer.

Gretchen: So you wanted to be able to remember with photographs what your body had looked liked before you moved on.

Dr. Myers: Yes, because I was convinced that I wanted bilateral mastectomy.

Gretchen: So when you met with Wendy, what was that experience like?

Dr. Myers: It was a bizarre experience. Wendy and I had never met in person and I was going to her studio for the photo shoot. She had said, "Bring scarves and jewelry and bring music. I'd like for you to dance. We won't pose this." And so it was three hours of, first of all, meeting someone completely new and then going through various stages of undress to the point of being completely nude and having oneself photographed. It's something I would never have expected that I would do and she got some amazing photographs.

Gretchen: And then you had an idea about where this might go further. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Myers: Right. So I had a partial mastectomy and then went to chemotherapy. I had decided that one of the things I wanted to do with Wendy's photographs is to go through them and select one to have made into a portrait. Wendy and I, again, after I was into and almost through with chemotherapy, we got together and we looked through the 440 photographs that she had taken that afternoon, and I was struck with the range of emotions that she had captured. She's a phenomenal artist and I thought, I mentioned to her that so many of these feelings and moods were things that perhaps other people could relate to in their breast cancer experience.

We began a conversation about what we might want to do and that's when we decided that she would at least come and photograph subsequent stages of the process so that we would have the primary material if we wanted to do anything with it.

Gretchen: So what you ended up with is a series of photographs that goes from just days after your diagnosis all the way through your surgeries, your treatments, and your reconstruction.

Dr. Myers: Right.

Gretchen: Can you tell us how you went from taking these pictures for yourself to creating an exhibit that has gone around the country and is likely to go around the world?

Dr. Myers: It's strange when you put something out in the universe what happens sometimes. I think many, many people who go through breast cancer have this commitment to do absolutely whatever they can to help other women. Education has always been my passion and so my great desire going through this experience was to do whatever I could to help educate and encourage women about this.

We selected photographs that captured different moods and different dimensions, different parts of the process of reconstruction. It's a 30 piece exhibit and it's paired with verbal reflections that are very, very brief, like verbal snapshots that complement the visual images and those were added when I was looking back at the images. So it was well after the fact, months after the fact, when I was looking at the images and remembering what I would have been feeling like in those particular shots.

Gretchen: And what do you hope for someone to see or to take away from this exhibit? What do you want people to take away?

Dr. Myers: The main thing I want people to take away is a feeling that a diagnosis of breast cancer is not a death sentence necessarily, and it's certainly not something that will make a person into a monstrosity. I think many women are very concerned about losing a vital part of their femininity and aren't really aware that the cosmetic result can be really wonderful. That said, I also would never want to imply that my experience or the results I was fortunate enough to have would be the same experience and results that other women would go through. I think it's very individual.

Announcer: Interesting, informative, and all in the name of better health. This is The Scope Health Sciences Radio.