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Dr. Chan: What kind of impact does a senior film project in Africa have on one's career and life path? How do you balance a career in digital media for preparing to apply to medical school? Why is it important to do activities that fit your narrative, and how does knowing your strengths help you as a non-traditional applicant?

Today on "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life," I interviewed Sam, a first year medical student here at the University of Utah's School of Medicine.

Announcer: Helping you prepare for one of the most rewarding careers in the world this is Talking Admissions in Med Student Life with your host, the Dean of Admissions at the University of Utah's School of Medicine, Dr. Benjamin Chan.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Well, I got a great guest again today. Sam, how are you doing?

Sam: I'm doing well.

Dr. Chan: Incoming first year medical student.

Sam: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: How does it feel?

Sam: Like a long journey that is just about to start and I'm very excited. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: When did the dream of becoming a doctor, where did that start for you?

Sam: I mean as a kid everyone toys with their dreams, right? For me the reality hit after I graduated college and I was on a humanitarian trip trying to find out my next steps. I spent some time with a physician, he was treating patients there and since I speak Spanish I made a really close connection with one of them who was giving a prosthetic to help him get back into his life and . . . because of social media we connected again on Facebook. He kept up with me and just seeing the changes that that made in his life over the next few months and not only in his morale but be able to go back to work and provide for his family, showed me the differences in the ability to help others in humanitarian work versus like medical work which I think can really be sustainable if done correctly, so.

Dr. Chan: So you said this happened after you graduated from college.

Sam: Right.

Dr. Chan: So what did you study undergrad?

Sam: I studied digital media at Utah Valley.

Dr. Chan: So a big jump?

Sam: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: You know, going to medicine.

Sam: Yeah. I originally had gotten a software job at a software company down in Lehi and while working there I was kind of looking for something else thinking that I wasn't quite . . .

Dr. Chan: Didn't feel content?

Sam: Yeah, with the field, so.

Dr. Chan: Though, you know, IT, computer, you know, all that stuff, it's pretty big like startups?

Sam: It is.

Dr. Chan: Especially in Utah, it's growing and growing.

Sam: Yeah. Well, in Lehi, I mean, the company I started working for had 60 people and now there's 600. So it was awesome to see the growth and I learned a lot about business through it and I think that will help me in my career as I move forward as well.

Dr. Chan: So as you started switching from digital media, computers, to premed, I mean did you have any doubts along the way or was it kind of a smooth transition, I mean how did that look like?

Sam: I felt lucky in the sense that being older and being nontraditional once I actually determined that's what I was going to do I didn't doubt it. There was a lot of bumps in the road however because digital media is a very much a curative field where, you know, the sciences, especially the basic sciences are all very rigid. There's creative ways to study and to learn and do all that which I applied and learned but it took me a semester to get used to it. And seeing as how the only science class I had in my undergrad was like Bio 1010, I had to start from scratch.

Dr. Chan: Wow.

Sam: And through bio and through chem, all of that, so.

Dr. Chan: So how did you balance that with a career in, you know, digital media while you're trying to, you know, take classes, study for the MCAT, I mean how did you do that?

Sam: I was very fortunate that my career and my success in my career basically led me to have the freedom to take some time off when I needed it. They also allowed me to, you know, study when I needed to, work short hours when I needed to and I think just my work ethic at my job and my career at that point never dipped then I maintain the same level of professionalism and so they let me kind of take the reins with my future, so.

Dr. Chan: Awesome, and your family was behind you the entire time?

Sam: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: They're trying to like, "Sam, what are you doing? What's going on? Are you sure about this?"

Sam: Yeah. My dad is big into education. He's very positive and supportive and I think, you know, everyone in my family just thought it was a great idea and they believe that I could work hard and make it there, so.

Dr. Chan: Do you come from a family of healthcare or physicians?

Sam: No. My dad was a CPA. My mom is into gardening. She's a Master of Horticulture.

Dr. Chan: Cool.

Sam: Yeah. Her backyard is the Garden of Eden basically. It's quite fantastic. And, yeah, no one else in my family came from that. So luckily my dad being a CPA had a lot of physician clients who I had a lot of shadowing opportunities through. So very quickly, like my first semester, I was shadowing and trying to make sure it was the right path and that my interest was there. And I think that's one of the big solidifiers of where I went was I shadowed so quickly that I was like, everything was so exciting I just continued to be more and more interested in every facet that I saw of medicine, so.

Dr. Chan: And I think you also made films, right?

Sam: I did, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So talk about that, when did that start and, yeah, how did you get into that?

Sam: So digital media is pretty fascinating. At UVU they have a lot of opportunities for different focuses. I actually ended up doing a focus on sound engineering and my original goal was I was going to, you know, jump to LA and get into film and television and, you know, maybe live life under the bright lights I guess.

Dr. Chan: You can be the director for Avengers Part 10.

Sam: Yeah, right? Jump on the Disney train.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Sam: So I got into some films that way obviously for projects and for commercials and the different things you have to do for your grades and for the class work. I went to Africa for my senior project and we did a documentary/promotional film for the work that UVU does with the Digital Namibian Archive and with UNESCO out in Namibia and that's kind of where I was like, well, maybe there is more . . . not necessarily that I couldn't stay in digital media, maybe there's more than just moving to L.A. and like being, you know, maybe there's something else that I can do and it was pretty transformative for me as far as like wanting to do something outside myself. And so that's when I kind of started looking into maybe a different path or a different career.

Dr. Chan: Would you be in the videos or just kind of narrate it or would you be behind the camera?

Sam: Mostly it was camera work, editing work, story boarding, kind of produce work, producing type jobs. Never was I like an actor or, you know, I don't know that I have the face for television, so.

Dr. Chan: Sam, you're beautiful.

Sam: Thank you.

Dr. Chan: Again, I don't know too much about this world. I know that there are contests, some people can submit, you know, their movies, it's a different kind of ways to be judged and things like that. I mean, did any of your work get published or is it sitting on YouTube right now I mean can someone go and find it and did you get any awards for it?

Sam: You know, this was back in 2010 actually.

Dr. Chan: Oh, really? Okay.

Sam: So YouTube was around, but it wasn't as big. I would like to say that I did more with it, but I think once that trip happened I kind of started looking elsewhere.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: So I did have a Vimeo account where I posted some personal projects and I know our video got used for a couple of years and so I made a new one and then the project at this point is over because it was part of a Fulbright at that time so, yeah, not really.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: I mean it's something I still have very much part of my life as far as appreciation for media and photography but not something real big on my resume like that.

Dr. Chan: All right. Okay, let's focus on medical school applications because I know this was a difficult journey.

Sam: Right. Trial by fire.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, just talk about that. I mean how was that like, how many times? Let's go through that.

Sam: So, yeah, I applied three times. The first time I made the choice we'll say to apply before I knew my MCAT score and I applied only to the U and I didn't perform nearly as well as I had liked and so I kind of just punted for the next season I will say. So I had to step back and really evaluate a lot of what I was doing. I got an interview obviously and had some great things told to me. I met up with Mayumi who helped me kind of make steps and plans for what I should do moving forward.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: And so for the second time we kind of talked about my experiences and really showing my personal growth and my interest in medicine and we talked about adding some new experiences and really shoring up some others.

Dr. Chan: Because that's kind of, I mean, to me coming from a nontraditional background, it's both a blessing and a curse.

Sam: Right.

Dr. Chan: You have these different experiences, but then, again, like you need to kind of convince the admissions committee like, "Hey, you know, I'm just . . . this is something I'm very serious about and I don't have a lot of background in doing the stuff." Do you see what I'm saying, Sam?

Sam: Absolutely.

Dr. Chan: So I'm glad you got some feedback. I'm glad, that's good.

Sam: Yeah, that you know the pre-professional program here is awesome, and Mayumi is awesome and she really kind of direct and blunt to a sense, but she's also very kind and helps you plan, make the right plan. So she helped me established that because, yeah, like being nontraditional before I started shadowing, I had very little experience except for maybe, you know, all the times I went to the ER as a kid just injuring myself.

So the experiences that I added I felt like really helped solidify my interest but also show, you know, my story. And I think that's one of the important things is when you add experiences, don't do something that looks good, do something that fits your story, that fits your passion.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, your narrative, yeah, who you are.

Sam: And what you want out of medicine. So for me I really want to do global health so I continue to add things like that. Locally, I continue to work at Mulege because I love working with the Spanish population and I think over the course of my applications I ended up working there for about three years. So that really showed, I think, the committee that I was serious about this that I wanted more experience and that I was a big part of jumping into that.

Dr. Chan: Did you ever want to give up?

Sam: No.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: You know, I thought after this last round if I didn't get in I may not reapply right away, maybe take a break, get a masters or really take a step back, but.

Dr. Chan: Well, this last round you got on here absolutely. But I think you got into other schools too.

Sam: I did, yeah.

Dr. Chan: So like it was kind of like this validation almost.

Sam: It was. You know, when I got my first acceptance I actually was just coming back from New Year's in Costa Rica and I was so elated. It was so crazy to just kind of see it come full circle, but I think for me with this last time there's a couple of things that I did really well that I . . . you know, as a nontraditional student it's very hard because a lot of times you don't have anyone to talk to. And, yeah, I can talk to Mayumi but at the end of the day I don't have a peer, I mean I had classes but for me I was taking all my classes as much as I could. I didn't go to a lot of the study groups because I had to go back to work. So a lot of times you don't form the same relationships when you're working full time and studying that you might normally as a student.

So I didn't have a lot of peers to connect with. So I actually met . . . I found out a friend from college had gone to medical school. His name is Dr. Aleksey, he's actually doing a residency in UCLA now. And he really helped me this last time to really form my narrative and ask the right questions that I could maybe, you know, just better paint the picture, you know, my hopes and dreams in my application. And the funny thing is not a lot changed but a lot of it is just contemplating who you are, why you're here, you know, and making sure that shows on paper. It's like a creative writing process basically and then obviously I retook the MCAT which . . .

Dr. Chan: You did much better if I recall.

Sam: I did much, much better, yes.

Dr. Chan: Yes. So the secret is wait until you're older and then you'll do better on that.

Sam: Right. And even the first time, it's like with the MCAT don't take if you're not ready.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Sam: With medicine, you know, the old adage is it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Even the application process has to be that way. You know, I think with the MCAT and with everything just make sure you're ready. Make sure you've peace of mind. And one thing I recommend anyone that's in that position whether it's a retake whether first time is save one of the official exams to like four or five days before your real exam and don't look at any portion of it and then the score you get on that, assume that's going to be the score on the real thing. And if you're not happy with it, don't take it. Just wait. So that worked out really well for me and I ended up actually scoring the exact same on my last practice as to my first.

Dr. Chan: Awesome, that's great.

Sam: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: So, you know, before I turned on the pod we were talking and then, you know, you kind of asked going back to the nontraditional you mentioned like your age.

Sam: Right.

Dr. Chan: And so like are you, I mean, how worried are you about that? I mean . . .

Sam: You know, I have a young spirit.

Dr. Chan: Okay, all right.

Sam: Except for maybe worrying about my hairline receding, I'm not sure.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Well, I know what you're saying. I've been thinning up there too, so, yeah.

Sam: Yeah. No, I'm not worried about that at all.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: I feel, you know, that when you get into your 30s you actually start to really get, I feel like, and to be at this point in my life and know what I want and know where I'm headed, I know I won't have the best background, the best medicine pedigree maybe as some of the other students who are all going to be incredibly intelligent but I know that I'll have the same work ethic as anyone in class. And so I'm dedicated and although I probably have to study more, I know where I want to be, you know what I mean? So I could be in four years doing a lot of things and to be graduating in medical school is at the top of my list.

Dr. Chan: Well, Sam, I mean we talked about it briefly but, you know, you're not going to be the oldest person in your class.

Sam: Right.

Dr. Chan: And I know that it' sometimes daunting like, "Oh, you know, just bunch of 20-year olds," but like there are some people in their 30s as well and I think from a friendship, from a cohort standpoint I think our med school has and always will have a wide variety of backgrounds and ages and I think, yeah, I think you're going to find people just like you and I think you can get along well with this people who are, you know, 10 years younger than you.

Sam: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: It sounds good.

Sam: I think so too and I appreciate that. I think no one should ever be deterred from pursuing any dream whether it be medicine or anything else to the age. You know, you have stories of people in their 40s and 50s jumping into medicine after a career and something else. And I think if you're passionate about something you'll find a way. And you'll find people who are friendly and you'll find mentors and colleagues that will, you know, there's so many different types of people in medicine that I think you always find your people is what I've been hearing and what I've . . .

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, you know who you are, you know what you want to, so I'm not going to hold you to it because obviously med school has all these experiences. You could change your mind but as of today what do you foresee yourself doing? What field do you want to go into and where do you want to practice?

Sam: So as of today I think I'm leaning towards surgery.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: And I don't want to get too specific about that but I have a huge background in the arts and in sculpting and in painting and also a couple of years where I bought a home that I've been slowly renovating and nothing makes me happier than just like problem solving and diving and do working with my hands. It's cathartic in a sense and I really appreciate just kind of the processes and the problem solving aspect of that and I think I'd love to be on the forefront, you know, creating and restoring and helping someone feel new, again, in a sense. So we'll see, I mean, like I said, when I shadowed, there are so many different opportunities and options that I was like, "I could do this and I can do that." And I was so excited by all of them, like there's very few things that I don't think I could do. So I'll wait until third year here to get really serious.

Dr. Chan: Sure. And then you mentioned global health.

Sam: Right.

Dr. Chan: So do you first see, I mean like is there like an area of the world or a specific country you want to work in or, and you know, how does that fit with the surgery?

Sam: Yeah. It's interesting because I just got back from the Global Health trip to Ghana.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: And they had the Extreme Affordability conference there and Dr. Price, one of the deans here, had talked about laparoscopic surgery in Mongolia and it's interesting because a lot of times you think surgery and Global Health they don't quite connect, but the reality is a lot of time when you set the standards for surgery, all other aspects of healthcare improve. And then also in Mongolia he talked about gallbladder removals and when you do that laparoscopically, even versus normal surgery, it actually helps their economy because people are able to return to work five days later. They have much less downtime. They're healthier and everything about that, so it actually got me really excited.

And I think surgery will tie hand and hand with that. And I'm lucky because I can focus on Global Health without necessarily making that specialty so I'm going to continue to do trips like next summer and, you know, look for other opportunities to do similar public health, you know, and maybe research or volunteering here in Utah.

Dr. Chan: So you mentioned Costa Rica and Ghana, where else have you gone?

Sam: Wow. So I love to travel.

Dr. Chan: Or where haven't you gone, I guess, yeah.

Sam: So, yeah. I've been to five continents, hoping to hit Australia maybe for Christmas.

Dr. Chan: The only continent that's a country, yes. Yeah.

Sam: Right. So I've been to about 30 countries.

Dr. Chan: Okay, wow.

Sam: Back to your original question I guess and to explain where I've been, when I was younger I served an LDS Mission in Uruguay and I love South American culture. I really love the language, I love the people, I love their music, their personalities and I think I'd like to eventually set something there long term because I do think global health has to be, you know, dedicated and sustainable in any way that you do it. You know, you have to go back. You can't just do this one-off trips to really have something beneficial long term. So I like South America I think but I do want to experience other aspects that I know the Global Health Program here does trips to Nepal, in India, and now that I have already done Ghana, I can maybe do one of those and just get another breadth of experience and see how that goes.

Dr. Chan: That's cool. You must have a lot of stories.

Sam: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Any ones that you care to share with the pod?

Sam: Stories?

Dr. Chan: Yeah. I can give you topics.

Sam: Okay.

Dr. Chan: Missed flights, bad food, police station. Go.

Sam: I got a good story for you.

Dr. Chan: All right.

Sam: So it's close to home.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: We were in Mexico. If anyone is from Arizona, it's commonplace to just drive down to Rocky Point, there's a bunch of condos and it's right on the Gulf. Coming back from there, not only the week that I was there did we have several run-ins where they ask for money and the police are always trying to get something from you, on our way back, me and a friend were driving and . . .

Dr. Chan: This is in Mexico?

Sam: This is in Mexico.

Dr. Chan: Good.

Sam: So we're getting close to the border . . .

Dr. Chan: Arizona plates?

Sam: No, I'm from Utah . . .

Dr. Chan: Okay, Utah plates.

Sam: Utah plates, I had my car. I drove to Arizona and meet some friends and we drove down there or to Mexico. So we're driving back, my buddy's sit in the passenger seat, never wears the seat belt no matter where we go and obviously nothing I can do about that. So we're driving back and whenever we get closer to the border we're always on edge anyway because that's where all the issues happen. So we're getting close to the border and we drive past and this policeman tries to waive me down. And I thought I'm close enough to the border like, oh, just screw that guy.

Dr. Chan: So still on the Mexican side?

Sam: Right, still on the Mexican side. And then I see him grab his intercom and something like yelling and running after me and so I'm like, "All right, I can't escalate this. I better stop and see what's going on." So I stopped. He pulls out to me and since I speak Spanish I'm able to kind of discuss things with him and kind of argue with him, and he basically tells me that, you know, since my friend doesn't have a seat belt on, I need to go with him to the station to, or no, he asked me for some money. And my first thought is, well, I'll tell him I don't have any. So I said, "Oh, I don't have any cash, but can I pay with a credit card?" And obviously it's basically extortion, so he's not going to, you know, pull out his square or something. So basically, he's like, "No, no you have to pay cash. Why don't you come with me to the station?"

I was like, "Oh, great, now, he wants me to go the station." I thought, well, what if I just tell him I'm in a hurry. It was a Sunday. So the first thing I thought of is like, "Oh, you know what, we're on our way to church. We've really got to go."

Dr. Chan: Were you dressed up in church's clothes?

Sam: No.

Dr. Chan: Who cares?

Sam: And I'm obviously like in a tank top or something. I don't know why I thought about this, but I was just like, "We've got to go, like, I don't have time, like I could pay with the credit card now or we're in such a hurry that, like, we got to make it to church." And it was so funny because he just sat there kind of flustered like I would never expect an American to talk to me like this, and I got pretty good at Spanish. I think that's part of it. Once you actually speak another language well, they respect you a little bit more and . . .

Dr. Chan: Did you launch into the first discussion, or like, no, it was not appropriate at that moment.

Sam: Yeah, not at that time.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: But then we kind of continued to discuss things like that and eventually he was just like, "Fine, get out of here." So, you know, my buddy buckled the seat belt and we took off. So you never know what you'll find when you're travelling, but . . .

Dr. Chan: It's a good story.

Sam: Thank you.

Dr. Chan: All right. And then let's talk about your nickname.

Sam: Okay.

Dr. Chan: So is it your spirit animal, what is it? Let's talk . . .

Sam: It is.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: Spirit/power animal.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: I think I was in college, we did one of those, you know, find your power animal, Indian shaman self-help guide things. I think we saw it off "Rob & Big" or something where he went to an actual shaman. So we basically just did whatever the shaman did and just kind of copied it. And it's interesting because I'm a Gemini, and at the very end of this little tale journey thing, you kind of look up in the smoke and you're supposed to see an animal. And actually I saw two, fitting of the Gemini, you know.

Sam: The twins, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. So one was a bear and one was a saber-toothed tiger. And there's really nothing about saber-toothed tigers, probably because Indians didn't have that in their culture, but bears, interestingly enough, really became something I felt very connected to just by learning about what that means and, you know, just kind of a fun thing. And interestingly enough, this was years and years before I planned to get into medicine, but bears are always known as across all cultures, whether it's in Russia or Native Americans or anywhere that these bears they're revered as very wise old spirits that are traditionally seen as the shamans and healers of their tribes. So I kind of thought it was kind of a cool story in the sense that, you know, continue with that nickname, I will be able to do that for my own tribe, my own people and maybe take on that role myself.

Dr. Chan: So does your family and friends call you "Bear?"

Sam: A few people.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: It's not too much. I actually put that on the card because I figured there'd be another Sam and it'd be a fine nickname to go by.

Dr. Chan: Okay, so you're prepared for your classmates to call you "Bear"?

Sam: Right. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: And what kind of bear? We're talking black bear, grizzly bear, polar bear?

Sam: I'd say grizzly bear, yeah.

Dr. Chan: Okay. Not a polar bear?

Sam: Not a polar bear.

Dr. Chan: Okay.

Sam: I like them all.

Dr. Chan: They're all good bears.

Sam: I'm a big bear fan.

Dr. Chan: Yeah, there's a lot talk in the missions like, "Oh, let's hear the story between, you know, Sam's nickname," so it's very unique. We love it.

Sam: Thank you.

Dr. Chan: So, all right, did we cover everything on your piece of paper?

Sam: I mean I wrote down a lot of things, but I think we did.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. What else do you want to say? Let me turn the time over to you. Do you have questions for me or what else do you want to say, Sam, or Bear?

Sam: Bear.

Dr. Chan: Sam Bear.

Sam: You know what's funny actually is I got a Sheba. I have a dog and I named him Kuma which means bear in Japanese. So it kind of goes in a lot of different ways.

Dr. Chan: And I think there's a picture of Kuma on the back of your car.

Sam: There he is.

Dr. Chan: All right, yeah. Quite a few of your classmates have animals. A lot of dogs we noticed, yeah.

Sam: Yeah. I think it will be fun to get out and bring the animals out whether we go hiking or whatever, so. You know, I think as a nontraditional student the last thing I'd say is just, you know, use your strengths, focus on who you are and most of all, you know, when you're writing your story find a real mentor. Find someone who went on a similar path. Like I said, my friend that's at UCLA was a huge impact for me and just be yourself.

I think sometimes when you apply it, especially when you reapply it, you get really stressed and everything gets magnified and when you're nontraditional you start questioning like, "Oh, am I risking so much?" And really like I said a little bit before, you know, once you get in you could be doing a million things in four years but how lucky we are to be able to study medicine and to be able to be healthcare providers that I couldn't picture any feature happier than that so I just, you know, kept chugging on.

Dr. Chan: So let me tell you like before I wind up, Sam ,I really appreciate you coming on. I'm going to tell you a secret, I mean it's not going to be a secret because we're on the pod. I've always rooted for you and I just felt bad that you didn't get in the first times but I was so happy when you got in and the big secret is like as admission's dean I definitely have people I root for and sometimes they get in and sometimes they don't, but I'm really glad that you kept on pushing and trying and growing and I think that was validated by you getting into multiple schools.

Sam: Well, thank you.

Dr. Chan: I'm just glad you're here at our school. So, yeah, you know, I've been pulling for you, I've been rooting for you, and I was really happy it happened for you this year, so.

Sam: That means so much to me. I have no idea because when you go to the process you don't know what people think of you and with you, especially like I . . . especially this last time I listened to your podcast a lot. Even just considering my future in medicine, once I got accepted, just planning out what I would be and then once I got into The U obviously, just was euphoric to kind of come full circle and be able to stay in Utah where I'm so happy to be. I love the mountains, I love the people, and, you know, I love the school. So that means so much to me, you really don't understand, so.

Dr. Chan: I appreciate it, Sam. We're going to have to have you come back after the, you know, I want you to come back to have like a status report, so how's first year going like, "Oh, my gosh," because, again, like you know you're on the cusp, you know, like everyone has images of or, you know, like this is what medical school is going to be like, right? And not until you actually step in as a student in your first day and then experience it, you're like, "Oh, this is exactly what I thought I was going to be." "Oh, this is really different." And I would just love to watch you and talk to you about that over the next four years as you grow into that. Sam: Yeah. I think it's going to be a lot of work but I can get myself to work, so, yeah.

Dr. Chan: All right, cool. We'll thanks, Sam.

Sam: Well, thank you.

Dr. Chan: Or thanks, Bear.

Sam: Bear.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to "Talking Admissions and Med Student Life" with Dr. Benjamin Chan, the ultimate resource to help you on your journey to and through medical school, a production of The Scope Health Sciences Radio online at thescoperadio.com.

Dr. Campsen: If you are being evaluated for an organ transplant, you're going to come in to the University of Utah for a full day workup, and one of the people that you'll meet is our social worker. Today, we're going to talk about that part of the organ transplant visit.

Announcer: Health tips, medical news, research and more for a happier, healthier life. From University of Utah Health Sciences, this is The Scope.

Dr. Campsen: My name is Jeff Campsen. I'm a transplant surgeon at the University of Utah and I'll be talking with Melissa Morales, one of our social workers at the University of Utah Transplant Clinic.

So we have people that come in who are in organ failure and need an organ transplant and we try to have them come in during a full day visit to meet a medical doctor, to meet our financial advisors, but also to meet you as the social worker. And I'd like to talk to you a little bit about what that visit's like and what is your role in that visit?

Melissa: Anytime I've kind of explained to patients what I do, I sort of start with, "I'm here to make sure that they are a good candidate and I want them to not be at risk." I take a detailed social history and some of the things that we talk about is their mental health history. We talk about having adequate support, this is family support, emotional support, making sure that they have sufficient resources. A lot of our patients are from out of state and so they have to stay here for up to four weeks.

And overall, it's about compliance. It's about making sure that they are going to be a good candidate, they're going to follow the medical team's recommendations so they have excellent results after transplant.

Dr. Campsen: So that's what they can expect from your visit. Is there anything else that they should be prepared for when they come in?

Melissa: I think it's important for them to know that the reason why we're here is because we want successful results. This isn't necessarily to rule someone out or to find out anything negative about them but it's really to see who they are and what resources they already have in place and what's available to them, how we can further help them if they need to be.

Dr. Campsen: So once you see them, you're going to give them recommendation to the Transplant Selection Committee on whether or not they should receive an organ transplant. And based on what you're saying, have you ever actually said no to somebody? And if you have, are there avenues for them to change and then proceed with their organ transplant?

Melissa: So I actually haven't ever said no. I would say that most of the patients are doing well. Again, they have this support, these resources in place. There are times where patients come in with unmanaged mental illness and they need additional support from either an individual therapist or a psychiatrist, and we help make those referrals to community services and get the help that they need.

Dr. Campsen: So as part of the transplant team then, how does your interview really affect the transplant process?

Melissa: So I sort of serve a dual role. I am there to evaluate and to assess how I think that they would do post-transplant. But I also am there to advocate, to link them to these community resources, to refer them out if they need to be. You know, we see these patients about once a year, and so there are times where I have to follow up with them more than that if there are any concerns on my end. So we get to build a connection, a relationship throughout their listing, and it's great.

Dr. Campsen: But this dual role is interesting because not only are you an advocate for the transplant program and helping the transplant program select the right people to give organs to, you're also a member of the team of the patient. And how do you navigate that dual role?

Melissa: You know, my goal, my purpose is to make sure that patients are successfully transplanted in a safe way and that they have the resources and support that they need, making sure that they're linked to exactly what they need that will help them have successful results.

Dr. Campsen: Well, I know what advice you've given me. What advice would you actually give a patient that was coming in to clinic to see you?

Melissa: I think something really important that I like patients to know is that their mental health really affects their physical health. If they are depressed or have anxiety, all those things are going to exacerbate especially after transplant, and I want them to know that we have these resources, we have ourselves, and we're available to help them through any sort of difficulties that they might have from an emotional, psychosocial side. You know, I really like making these connections with patients. Sometimes I do wish that I had more interaction with them than just once a year. But just seeing how successful they are, see how different their lives can be, a lot of them go back to work after several months and, you know, they talk about how grateful they are for our team and really for this process and having gone through that.

Dr. Campsen: I know that I always like to say that basically, once a patient gets listed and they get an organ, they're always a member of our team and they always have medical resources. But they also have social resources, correct?

Melissa: Right. Yeah, so we're available to them post-transplant. You know, we usually say for about a year after but we're happy to meet with patients any point whether it's been years out or, you know, within a few months.

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Interviewer: You made it to the interview round for physician assistant school, so congratulations. But now what? We're going to give you a few hints on how you can make a lasting impression with your PA school interview tips, which will be coming up next on The Scope.

Announcer: Navigating your way through med school can be tough. Wouldn't it be great if you had a mentor to help you out? Well, whether you're a first year or a fourth year, we've got you covered. The Med Student Mentor is on The Scope.

Interviewer: The interview for PA school is fast approaching but there's not a reason to freak out because we are going to give you some advice to help you prepare. Doris Dalton is the director of admissions for the University of Utah Physician Assistant program. She's going to explain what makes for a standout admissions interview. So what are the three most important components for a good interview, in your mind? I'm asking you to come up with the top three.

Doris: Top three. Number one is being prepared.

Interviewer: Yeah. And what does that entail?

Doris: How do people prepare for interviews? We had a candidate who has since graduated from our program and he was addressing some pre-PA students during one of my presentations. They asked him, "What did you do to prepare for your interview?" And he said he sat down and wrote down every question he could possibly think of that he might be asked and rehearsed them. He said he had 15 pages of questions.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Doris: And went through every one.

Interviewer: Sure. And had those answers ready. So that's number one. What else should I do, other than prepare?

Doris: Relax.

Interviewer: Okay. That's easier said than done.

Doris: Relax is probably number one.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Doris: And it's the hardest thing to do, but being relaxed will allow you to be comfortable. It will allow you to be confident and put your best foot forward to really be able to communicate well over the table.

Interviewer: So just be yourself, just be your well-prepared self? Is that part of relaxing? Don't try to be something you're not.

Doris: Be your well-prepared self.

Interviewer: I'm trying to think, if I went into that situation what might cause me not to relax, because I want it so much. So how do I get over that?

Doris: That's the biggest factor. And there's an intimidation factor. You're sitting across the table and that person is a PA and you want to be one.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Doris: And this interview is depending, my future is depending on this interview.

Interviewer: I know.

Doris: So it's high stakes and people get very, very nervous. And with our process we have multiple interviews and our candidates who come and interview with us always say, "Of course, you're nervous on your first interview." But once they figure out that we're nice people, you're a nice person, it allows you to relax and our candidates consistently say that by their second or third interview they felt a lot more comfortable.

Interviewer: Yeah, because they've gone through it. It's not unknown anymore.

Doris: That's right.

Interviewer: Maybe a little practice of the interview, have your friends interview you maybe. How about number three?

Doris: Number three, know your stuff.

Interviewer: Okay.

Doris: Know your stuff. Be familiar with your background that you've listed because you will be asked questions beyond what you've listed on your application. You will be asked to reflect on some of your experiences that you've already shared. You will be asked about the PA profession itself, the PA role. Do you have a solid understanding of what you're asking to get yourself in to?

Interviewer: Do you find that people come into the interview process without doing these three things or one of the three?

Doris: We do. We do.

Interviewer: More than I'd expect?

Doris: I think that most people who are really committed to going to PA school really know their stuff.

Interviewer: Gotcha, sure.

Doris: But I think being nervous about them prevents them from sharing that in a successful way.

Interviewer: Oh, all right. What are some of the common mistakes that people make in these interviews?

Doris: I think people fail to really think some of their responses out thoroughly. It's okay to sit back and breathe for a moment and ask yourself the question and take a moment to think about how you want to respond to it.

Interviewer: Yeah, what are they trying to find out with this question, what kind of answer could I give that will illustrate that?

Doris: And even better yet, how can I answer that question well. If you ask yourself in your brain, someone just asked me this question, and I'm going to respond with the first thing that comes to my head, I can ask myself internally, "And what about that and so what?" And challenge yourself to dig a little deeper.

Interviewer: So I would have five seconds, ten seconds to respond to a question and that's not going to count against me if you were across the table?

Doris: No, your interviewers know that you're thinking about how you want to respond to that.

Interviewer: That's not going to show you that I wasn't prepared?

Doris: You don't want a two-minute silence, but-

Interviewer: Okay.

Doris: Taking a breath and thinking about how you want to respond to that is normal.

Interviewer: What surprises people at these interviews, do you find. What did they not expect that might throw them for a loop?

Doris: People don't expect that it's not as tough as they think. And they get into their heads too much. Because, again, once they get to their second or third interview they feel a lot more relaxed and this is something that the candidates who come to interview with us and those that we accept consistently tell me, "I was so scared during my first interview and then I relaxed and I figured out that the faculty is nice people."

It's really more of a getting to know you process. Truly when you're invited to interview at all, for a job, for anything that you take an interview for, you know you're qualified, otherwise they wouldn't have invited you in. This is just a getting to know you process.

Interviewer: That's good advice. You don't need to prove your qualifications anymore, now you just need to prove your passion, or that you're a good person, or that you shower daily, or wear pants.

Doris: No, we just want to know a little bit more about you. You look great on paper, let's meet you, let's get a sense of your interpersonal skills. Relax and be yourself to share that.

Interviewer: Give me one killer tip that's going to really help me when I walk into that interview.

Doris: The thing that I often advise people is to try to understand what it's like to be on the other side of the interview table. This is something that's certainly worked for me in my experience with interviews, is being an interviewer. So that may not be something that you have an opportunity to do in your workplace, but if there is some hiring coming up where you work, you can ask your employer, "May I sit in?"

You don't have to be a voting member of that committee hiring the new person, but having a little bit of a perspective of what it's like to be on the other side of the table and looking at a nervous candidate, being in an interview, can really help you with some of your own confidence, that you understand from that perspective, it's just a getting to know you process.

Interviewer: Yeah, and also you could pick up, "Wow, I really liked it when they did that." Or "I really liked it when they did this." I always thought, coming in with a big smile and shaking the hand was kind of cheesy, but that really does make a difference.

Doris: It does. And it also will help you to understand why certain questions are asked. Why did you ask that question?

Interviewer: Any resources on this topic that you would drive people towards?

Doris: Practicing the interview and developing interview skills.

Interviewer: Okay.

Doris: Understanding what exactly an interview is. So one example might be if you're asked in an interview, "What are your weaknesses?" I'm not literally looking for "what are your weaknesses?" I'm looking for what is your level of self-awareness.

Interviewer: So pretty much any resource that helps you become a better interviewer is going to serve you for your PA interview.

Doris: Understanding those skills from the interviewer's side and from the interviewee's side.

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Announcer: This is the show by med students for med students. It's The Med Student Mentor on The Scope.

Interviewer: An interview is a great way to make an impression at a medical school, but knowing how to do an interview is a difficult process. Today, we brought in a Dr. Robert Jay Mayer who's the Faculty Associate Dean of Admissions at the Harvard Medical School. Thank you so much for being with us today, Dr. Mayer.

Dr. Mayer: My pleasure.

Interviewer: Just to start us off. Tell us about what an interview is to you.

Dr. Mayer: An interview is a very important part of our evaluation of candidates. We interview about one out seven to one out of eight applicants. We certainly are impressed with the accomplishments of those people from reading their applications, reading their letters of recommendation and reading their scores on standardized examinations and marveling at the many accomplishments they've already achieved.
On the other hand, what kind of people are they? What sort of ability do they have to maintain a conversation, to demonstrate some poise to justify, reassure the interviewer that their career goal is really in medicine. So for us, an interview is a very important component of our assessment.

Interviewer: So, I understand the interview process for Harvard Medical School happens on your guys' campus and it's sort of after a tour and some sitting in on classes. Can you sort of elaborate a little bit more on what that process entails and is that a normal process for an interview, or is that sort of unique to the Harvard Medical School?

Dr. Mayer: In some schools now, there is almost a speed dating sort of process where they are in a large area, there are stations, if you will, two or three seats and people go from one station to the other as interviewees and are asked a certain question and see how they handle it and then move on to the next booth, if you will.
We don't do that. We believe much more in giving our candidates an opportunity to talk with us, to share their goals and their experiences. It's a much more holistic process. We are much more interested in having our applicants tell us about themselves than our having a checklist of certain questions or areas that we would like to know whether a candidate has knowledge about.

Interviewer: Why do you think it's important to have your interview candidates sit in on classes?

Dr. Mayer: Well, you want to know what the environment and the product what you are applying for really is.

Interviewer: What are some ways that an applicant might prep him or herself for an interview?

Dr. Mayer: I want to look presentable. I want to look an interviewer in the eye. I want to have certain points about myself that I want share with the interviewer and I also think that they ought to be able to talk about what they do for fun and what they do for, in extracurricular areas. We want to probe what is in a candidate's application.
So, if a candidate says that I have a tremendous passion for volunteering in nursing homes and it's perfectly fair game to ask them to describe a patient or an experience or a memory. So, I think the message is what you tell us in your application is what we're going to focus on. We're not going to ask you questions that have nothing to do with that. Lastly, I suppose, we are looking for people who have shown some degree of leadership.

Interviewer: Okay. Well, that's a lot of great things that student can do to prep for an interview. Sort of on the other side of that coin, is there anything a student really should avoid doing in an interview?

Dr. Mayer: Being late. Being disrespectful. Saying or trying to answer something that they really don't know. I would really be very clear that what I am talking about are experiences that I've had. If I've been an EMT and you're asked about being an EMT, I would know what I'm talking about because the interviewer may have been and EMT.

Interviewer: After a good interview, what should the student have hoped to have impressed upon the interviewer and really how should the student feel?

Dr. Mayer: We very much want people to leave an interview or an interview day, saying that's a wonderful place. The people are happy. The people care about students. They care about the applicants. They really were receptive. If you come back from a good interview and you are an undergraduate or recent undergraduate so that you still have a relationship with the pre-medical adviser at your undergraduate school that you let that person know that you've really had a good terrific day. You're interested in the place because that information can be conveyed as well.

Interviewer: All right. So, you're really hoping students come away happy. Well, thank you so much for talking about this today and we really appreciate you stopping by.

Dr. Mayer: My pleasure.

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