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So we've been dealing with COVID for a while now, and we are seeing kids who have what we call long-hauler symptoms. So what are these and is there anything that can be done?

In general, kids do pretty okay with COVID. Some have mild symptoms, some get pretty sick but recover after a week or two, and some kids have no symptoms at all. But more and more what I'm seeing are kids whose parents are saying, "I didn't know it would be this bad," or, "Why are they still having symptoms?"

Unfortunately, no one can predict who will develop long-haul COVID symptoms. There is a study out of England that shows that up to 15% of kids up to age 16 will still have symptoms five weeks after they initially test positive for COVID.

Long-haul symptoms can happen in kids who have minimal or no symptoms or in kids that have severe symptoms. That's the tricky thing with COVID. It doesn't follow any rules and it seems to do whatever it pleases on its own time frame.

So what are the symptoms of long-haul COVID? The most common are fatigue, brain fog or difficulty concentrating, breathing issues, chest, joint, or muscle pain, chronic cough, and headache. We also see changes in the sense of taste or smell, mood changes, or lightheadedness when standing up.

I know. It seems like anything can be a symptom of long-haul COVID. And not all of those symptoms can be attributed to having had COVID in the past.

How is long-haul COVID diagnosed? Well, that's tricky too. There are no specific tests that can be done. Your pediatrician can rule out other conditions and will usually refer your child to a specialist if their symptoms persist. But there are no good tests.

We have no idea how long it will last, we don't know what causes it, and we don't know what the treatment will be other than supportive care and treating your child's symptoms as best as possible. But there is no cure.

As we continue to move forward with COVID, hopefully we will have more answers as to how to help long-hauler symptoms. Until then, treating your child's symptoms and getting them set up with specialists to help with their specific medical needs is the best we can do.

You are pregnant and trying to do the right thing to keep yourself healthy and provide a safe place for your growing pregnancy. Is it time to get a COVID vaccine?

I have tragic memory of being part of a team that cared for a wonderful young woman who was pregnant and got influenza. Influenza isn't usually lethal to healthy young people, but it's dangerous in pregnancy. We knew this young woman. She worked in our unit, and she and her baby died of influenza. This was before my hospital required all employees to be vaccinated for the flu each year. Now we have over a decade of information about the influenza vaccine in pregnancy and safety, and we encourage every one of our patients to get the flu vaccine. It saves lives.

Now we have this other virus, COVID-19. COVID isn't new to us as humans. We've seen several other COVID viruses that were quite deadly in the past 20 years, but they didn't go that far and we see coronaviruses, the COVID family, make up some of the virus that caused the common cold. But COVID-19 is very contagious and causes severe illnesses and death all too frequently and lingering illnesses in many of those who weren't even really sick.

So when we first offered the COVID-19 vaccine, we had little information about COVID vaccine in pregnancy, but we had almost nine months of data on the COVID-19 virus infection and how it affected pregnant women. Here at the University of Utah, Dr. Torri Metz, a specialist in high-risk pregnancy, helped lead a national team to collect information about pregnant women who were infected with COVID-19. We talked with her, and she said it was sobering to see that young, healthy women who were pregnant had much more serious courses of the infection than women of the same age who weren't pregnant. They were more likely to get hospitalized, they were more likely to be admitted to the intensive care unit, they were more likely to be put on a ventilator, and if their oxygen levels became too low, they were more likely to lose their babies and sometimes they lost their lives.

But it took us another nine months to collect information about women who were pregnant and were vaccinated and compare outcomes to women who were pregnant and were not vaccinated. And the news is good and compelling about the safety of the COVID-19 vaccine in pregnancy.

So what is true? One, the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines had no adverse effects on fertility, pregnancy, and offspring in lab animals. Two, in 35,000 women who were pregnant and received the COVID-19 vaccine, headache, muscle aches, chills, and fever were less frequent in pregnant women than in non-pregnant patients. Three, injection site pain, where you got the shot, was more frequent in pregnant women, but it wasn't really all that bad. Four, the safety data following 4,000 pregnancies in women who were vaccinated showed no higher rates of miscarriage, no higher rates of preterm birth, no higher rate of newborn birth defects, or deaths compared to what we normally experience in pregnancy. I'm going to say that again. There were no higher rates of miscarriage, preterm births, or birth defects in women who were vaccinated compared to women who aren't vaccinated. Number five, women who are infected with COVID-19 have an increased risk of harmful abnormalities in the placenta. Women who are vaccinated don't have these harmful changes. Six, women who are vaccinated are five times less likely to get COVID-19 compared to pregnant women who are not vaccinated, one-fifth the rate of getting COVID compared to non-vaccinated pregnant women. Seven, women who are vaccinated give good antibodies to COVID-19 to their newborn babies. So there are seven true things.

What's not true? One, the COVID-19 vaccine causes infertility. It doesn't. Two, the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have DNA in them and will alter the DNA of the fetus. Nope. These vaccines have mRNA in them, and these molecules are very short-lived and act mostly in the muscle around the shot. They don't change the DNA of the fetus or the mom. Three, the COVID vaccine has a microchip in it to track you. Really? I don't know where that ever came from, but it's one of the silliest of the vaccine myths.

Women who are pregnant are at high risk if they become infected with COVID-19. Pregnancy may lower women's immune responses, but the vaccine is still very protective against women developing complications from COVID-19.

With the information about the risks of COVID-19 infection to the pregnant mother and now the efficacy data from the vaccine outcome data collection and the safety information from more than thousands of women who were vaccinated while pregnant, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine have strongly recommended that women who are considering pregnancy, trying to get pregnant, who are pregnant, or who are breastfeeding get vaccinated with the COVID-19 vaccine.

I think back to the day when I saw a young woman die of influenza and how much the flu vaccine is part of our counseling to pregnant women during flu season. So if it's flu season and you're pregnant or breastfeeding, don't forget to get your flu vaccine. And no matter what season it is, if you are pregnant, trying to get pregnant, or breastfeeding, please talk to your clinician and get vaccinated against COVID-19. And because no vaccine is perfect, please wear a mask that covers your nose and mouth when you're indoors in groups of people and practice social distancing if you're with people who aren't vaccinated.

And thanks for doing what you can to protect yourself, your baby, and those around you. And thanks for joining us on The Scope.

A lot of parents of younger children are now asking themselves a big question. I'm vaccinated against COVID, but my kids are too young for the vaccine. Can I let them play with their friends again? Do they have to wear a mask?

Kids have usually seemed to fare better with COVID than adults. But we know this isn't always the case. There are those kids who get COVID and then are affected by MIS-C, the multi-inflammatory system complication that will land a child in the intensive care unit. That is seriously scary. And that's why so many of us pediatricians worry about kids around COVID.

Another big concern has been that younger children would bring the virus home to vulnerable adult family members, and those would be the ones who would become significantly ill. So now that many places are not requiring masks anymore and places are opening up, it puts many parents in a situation where they're not sure what to do with younger kids. These kids have missed a whole year or more of socialization with friends and are really wanting to get back to playing.

The current recommendations are that if a person is not vaccinated, they should continue to wear a mask. That said, if your child is playing outside with friends that you trust and who have also been following precautions, it may be okay to let the kids play outside without masks on. There is evidence that kids who play outdoors have a low risk of being infected. There are also a lot of summer camps now, where masks are still being required. But they offer a lot of fun activities for kids who are too young to be vaccinated.

Adolescents ages 12 and up can be vaccinated now. My kids are both fully vaccinated now, and it was their choice, especially knowing that next year there will be no masks in junior high or high school in our area. They asked a lot of good questions about the vaccine and understood the science behind the vaccine. They both said it was such a relief to know that they are now protected. Vaccine trials are now underway for kids older than six months old at the time I'm recording this. The current projections are that kids ages 5 to 11 may be able to be vaccinated as early as September. And kids ages six months to four years may be able to be vaccinated by next spring.

The more people around your child who are vaccinated, the safer they will be. The bottom line is this is a choice your family needs to make. Are others in your family at high risk? Do you know who your kids are playing with? Are they outside? Is anyone sick? Or has anyone been exposed to COVID within days of the playdate? There is hope in sight for the youngest population, and science is working as fast as possible to get everything back to normal as quickly as we can.

Dr. Spivak: The vaccine looked 100% effective. There were 16 cases of COVID in those 2600 kids, all of them were in kids that got placebo, no infections in kids that got the vaccine. So it looks really safe and really effective, maybe even more effective than an adult.

Interviewer: How we know the COVID-19 vaccine is safe for kids and why your children should get it? Dr. Emily Spivak is an Associate Professor of Medicine in the Division of Infectious Diseases at University of Utah Health. So first of all, should kids get the COVID vaccine? I mean, I've heard that kids are a lot less likely to get sick from COVID-19. So is the vaccine necessary? And is that a true statement?

Dr. Spivak: That is a true statement. But I'd like to point out that they're not immune or completely protected from getting sick, right? There have been over 400 kids hospitalized in Utah since the pandemic hit from COVID-19, and I think around two or three have died. Nationally, over 300 children have died from COVID-19, and that's 50% higher than like our worst influenza year, deaths-wise in kids nationally. And then I'd also point out, we don't talk about whether you want to call it long COVID, long haulers, any sort of long-term side effects from other viruses, like influenza or other respiratory viruses. We don't see that like we do with COVID-19. And so, I think the long-term side effects that happens in children as well. And that should be a reason to get your kids vaccinated as well just protecting them from being hospitalized.

Interviewer: We hear that they don't transmit it as readily as adults, is that a true statement?

Dr. Spivak: I don't know that that is totally true. And a lot of that original data and understanding came in the setting of, you know, last spring, when we had shut schools down, kids were sheltered at home. And then, when we brought them back to school, in many places, it was with masks. And so, it's a little bit confounded understanding how well kids can transmit it.

I will say clearly, we are seeing an uptick in cases in younger populations so less than 18, people who are less likely to be vaccinated, relative to nationally cases going down overall and going down and over. . .going down in older populations that are vaccinated. So clearly, kids are susceptible. And I think if you ask most kids, they would tell you, "I would like to get vaccinated because then I can start seeing my friends. I can start doing sports. We can start riding in cars or doing things together without a mask. And I want to protect my friends, my grandparents, and the people around me." So, there's a lot of personal reasons for them to do it to not get sick. But also just to get back to the things that are fun for them and that they want to do.

Interviewer: So we've got the why. There's a couple good why reasons. What about the safety aspect? So I mean, there's some skepticism from some individuals if it's safe for adults. So is it safe for kids? Is it more risky for kids? What do we know about that?

Dr. Spivak: It looks safe. And I will say just talking about this vaccine in general, we have. . .so almost over 275 million doses have been given of COVID vaccines in the United States. Again, all. . .most of that is to adults. But I would just point out, we have, you know, the most intensive safety monitoring in U.S. history for this vaccine compared to any other vaccine that we have given. So there's been new safety monitoring systems in additions to the ones that existed that have been deployed, essentially, to monitor COVID-19 vaccine safety.

These vaccines look incredibly safe. And we have much longer-term data right with adults since we've been doing this since about December in adults. But the data that exists looks also like these are quite safe in children. Same side effects, right, 80% are going to have some arm soreness after the injection and about 20% to 30% will have this flu-like symptoms fever, myalgias, headaches, you know, muscle pain after the second dose. And that is. . .that's just your body showing you that the vaccine is working and your immune system is responding. But there do not seem to be any serious side effects.

Interviewer: And you have children yourself. When it comes to the question of getting your children vaccinated when it's time, because right now 12. . .as of the recording of this, children 12 and older can get vaccinated. It is not been approved for any younger. What are you going to do with your decision-making process?

Dr. Spivak: I'll be honest with you, I have three girls ages nine, almost seven, and three, but I will get my kids the vaccine as soon as it's available for them. I don't have any concerns.

Interviewer: So there have been some side effects with adults and some negative outcomes, the blood clotting, for example, is one. As a parent, does that worry you that that could happen to your child? I mean, that would be scary, right?

Dr. Spivak: It would be scary, but I'm not worried. So the blood clotting there's no signal to blood. . .to my knowledge for blood clotting with the mRNA vaccine, so with Pfizer or Moderna. And currently what we're talking about with adolescents is the Pfizer vaccine is approved. We expect the Moderna trial to be finished in 12 to 15, 16-year-olds and that one to be approved in the very near future. The blood clots are with the adenovirus vector vaccines specifically in the U.S., the Johnson and Johnson vaccine that has been licensed. So that vaccine is not really in the pool and available for adolescents. So, you know, again, the overall risk really is lower than getting COVID, depending on how much is in the community and also of these long-term side effects from COVID. So we're still talking minuscule risk.

Interviewer: Give me your two-sentence summary about for a parent that's hesitant to get the vaccine for their children, you know, maybe they would get it for themselves, but not their kids. What can we say to make parents feel better about the decision to get their children vaccinated?

Dr. Spivak: These concerns exists in parents who ran to get the vaccine for themselves, but they're still concerned about the safety, I think is the main thing for their kids balancing that with, we hear kids don't really get that sick. So if I'm unsure about safety, does my kid really need to get it?

Interviewer: Yeah, that risk-benefit kind of question that you as a physician face all the time.

Dr. Spivak: Yeah. There is a lot of data in adults showing that these vaccines are highly effective and safe. Again, probably more data than any other vaccine in U.S. history. The risks of getting COVID and severe consequences maybe not death, but this multi-system inflammatory syndrome MIS-C or sort of long haulers or long COVID is real in kids. And then, also just even the more proximal goal of getting your kids comfortably back socializing, playing, camp, sports with their friends. And I think if you asked your kids as sort of what they want to do, they would probably. . .many of them say, "I'd like to do this for myself, but do it for my friends and do it for my teachers and other people as well."

Interviewer: And if somebody wants more information beyond what we talked about, what's a good reliable source for them to go to?

Dr. Spivak: I'd say coronavirus.utah.gov. The state website also cdc.gov. If you Google cdc.gov... CDC COVID vaccine, there's a lot of frequently asked questions, fact sheets in there, that's a good resource as well.

Dr. Tarbox: Hello and welcome to "Skincast," the podcast for people to learn about skincare. I'm Michelle Tarbox. I'm a dermatologist in beautiful sunny Lubbock, Texas. And I'm being joined by . . .

Dr. Johnson: I'm Luke Johnson, dermatologist at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Dr. Tarbox: So we're making this podcast to help educate people about how to take the very best care of their skin, and we plan to release an episode every two weeks. On this podcast, we will mention specific skincare products that we have found in our medical opinion to be very helpful and beneficial to our patients. We are not sponsored in any way or supported by any of the manufacturers of these products.

Dr. Johnson: Nope, but we are medical doctors.

Dr. Tarbox: I like it. Dermatologists are medical doctors who specialize in the care of the skin and of the hair and the nails. We're going to talk about skincare in the COVID era. So, Luke, what do you think is the most important aspect of skincare in this very unusual time we're all living through?

Dr. Johnson: Well, everybody is washing their hands a lot more because of the Coronavirus, which I think is a good idea. But a lot of people have noticed that their poor hands just get so dry and chapped afterwards. We say they have irritant contact dermatitis. Dermatitis, inflammation of the skin, because of contact with an irritant, in this case water. And it's helpful to know what to do if your poor hands get all dry and chapped.

Dr. Tarbox: And that definitely can happen in this day and age when we're all having to clean our hands very frequently. I think now more than ever it's really important to have a good skin care regimen that helps protect the integrity or the intactness of your skin, because our skin is important. It helps to protect us from the world, from bacteria, and viruses, and chemicals, and so we need to take the very best care of it. So what's your favorite moisturizer, Luke?

Dr. Johnson: Well, I love just plain old petroleum jelly. The brand name is Vaseline, but you can buy just the generic brand petroleum jelly. It's great for so many reasons. I have written a small love letter to Vaseline. It doesn't rhyme or anything. But first of all, it's super cheap, especially if you buy the generic version. You can get a big tub of it for about $3. It does a great job moisturizing the skin. So, in dermatology, we talk about transepidermal water loss, the water loss through the skin, and petroleum jelly prevents 99% of it. Also, nobody gets allergic to petroleum jelly. Love it.

Dr. Tarbox: It's easy to find, most people have access to it, and it works very well. Now, I know some people aren't always comfortable using petroleum jelly for various reasons. So, if you're one of those people, and we just can't convince you with our passionate love of Vaseline, we can . . .

Dr. Johnson: It's great.

Dr. Tarbox: It is fantastic. But we can recommend some other things as well. For some patients who don't want to use Vaseline or petroleum jelly, the nut butters may be beneficial. So shea butter can be helpful. Some of my patients have liked a product called Waxelene, which is actually derived from beeswax and is sort of a crunchy granola replacement for Vaseline or petroleum jelly. But the important thing is just to use it regularly.

Dr. Johnson: Waxelene?

Dr. Tarbox: Waxelene. I know. That's what it's called. You can find that usually in health food stores or Whole Foods markets.

Dr. Johnson: What I tell my patients often is that I know Vaseline is not for everybody. It's kind of messy and greasy. So, if you don't like it, use something you like. So just find the thickest, greasiest thing that you kind of like putting on your skin. In general, things that you have to scoop out of a jar are going to be more effective than things that squirt out of a bottle.

Dr. Tarbox: I kind of love that analogy, and that's definitely true. So you want your lotion that you're going to use to moisturize your hands in this unusual time to be more like icing and less like chocolate syrup. So when we are talking about moisturizers, if you're wanting to use something that's more of a cream, there are several over-the-counter products that I think Luke and I can agree on are very helpful to the skin and are very minimally irritating, so they don't have any excess fragrances or harsh preservatives.

Dr. Johnson: Well, if people don't buy into Vaseline, I usually don't have anything specific in mind. But the point of all this is not just to make your hands feel better, though it will. But there is a little bit of concern amongst some dermatologists that if you've developed little cracks in your skin, that could actually be a portal of entry for the Coronavirus. So the Coronavirus likes to attach to certain proteins in order to get into cells and those proteins might be present in those cracks in your hand. We call those fissures. So helping them to heal up is important, and these moisturizers will help that happen.

Dr. Tarbox: Absolutely. Now, a lot of people are using hand soap to wash their hands. Your choice of soap is also very important. Some soaps are going to really strip the natural oils from the skin, and others may be irritating because of fragrance or chemical content. So using a soap that's designed to be gentle is a good choice. What's your favorite?

Dr. Johnson: Well, as far as I can tell, the party line among dermatologists across the world is white Dove bar soap. Everyone seems to really like it.

Dr. Tarbox: I like that one. I also like . . . Vanicream makes a bar soap as well that's very hypoallergenic. Another good product is CeraVe Hydrating Cleanser. This is a cleanser that won't foam. It doesn't have the ingredient that makes soaps foam, which is usually something called sodium lauryl sulfate, which can be a little bit more dehydrating to the skin. But you don't actually need the foam to cleanse. It's just something we associate with cleanliness. So that's a great product as well and it's very gentle.

Dr. Johnson: Though I'll admit at my home I use just random generic liquid soap because my hands don't seem all that sensitive, but I do put moisturizer on them afterward.

Dr. Tarbox: It's a good idea. There's also, of course, hand sanitizer that people are using. And remember that it has to have a certain percentage of alcohol in it for it to be effective against the Coronavirus. Now, alcohol is naturally dehydrating. That's one of the ways that it actually works against enveloped viruses like the coronavirus. But that same property where it can be dehydrating can make it a little bit hard on your skin.

Dr. Johnson: And of course, in general in terms of the Coronavirus, as you'll hear everywhere, if you can avoid touching your face, that's great. In dermatology, we learned that people just touch their faces all the time for no good reason. In fact, I think I touched mine over the past two minutes like five times. So just bear in mind that there could be dirt or other nasty things on your hands that you don't want to put on your face.

Dr. Tarbox: Yeah, I think that it's something that we all have to kind of monitor our subconscious activities with and really try to pay attention to that behavior and stop it before it potentially transmits a virus we really don't want to deal with.

Dr. Johnson: Well, we mentioned moisturizers in general earlier, but this is a special spot where my favorite Vaseline really outperforms. So something nice and greasy will help it heal. Wounds heal best when they're kept moist and greasy. So I've talked to a number of patients who have said, "Won't my wound heal better if I leave it to dry?" And it's interesting because the medical community used to feel that that was the case. But something like 20 years ago, we realized it's not. If it's moist, then the new skin cells can crawl across the surface more easily. So, if you remember hearing, "You should leave your wounds dry for them to heal," that's outdated knowledge. Now, keep them greasy with Vaseline.

Dr. Tarbox: I like to think of it like trying to regrow a dead patch in a yard. So, if you think about where you've got your grass and you want it to grow back over a place where the grass has been lost for some reason or another, is it going to grow better if you have a nice moist soil that's easy for the grass to grow back through? Or is it going to grow best if you have hard, dry dirt?

Dr. Johnson: I do not have a green thumb, but I'm guessing the moist one.

Dr. Tarbox: Exactly. So I think that that's a very important thing now.

Dr. Johnson: Just don't wear a mask.

Dr. Tarbox: Ah, ba-dum.

Dr. Johnson: No, a joke. I mean, I guess if you can avoid wearing a mask because you are staying at home or whatever, that's fine. But masks are pretty important to prevent the spread of the Coronavirus, so they're a necessary evil. Avoiding other stuff that's on your face under the mask, specifically makeup. So I admit I don't wear a lot of makeup.

Dr. Tarbox: What?

Dr. Johnson: But it seems to me that if you are going to be wearing a mask anyway, then why put makeup on the part of your face that's going to be covered? It can exacerbate the problem. It also kind of messes up the masks and makes them harder to reuse if we end up needing to do that.

Dr. Tarbox: I agree. I've actually taken this whole time as a little permission to be a little less involved with my beauty routine. So while I'm paying very good attention to my skin health, and I'm trying to kind of baby that skin and be gentle with it, I'm really not using makeup hardly at all, because what's the point? It's underneath the mask and no one is going to see it. So I don't understand why I would do that anyway.

Dr. Johnson: How do you wash your mask, Michelle? Do you just throw it in the washing machine with everything else?

Dr. Tarbox: The masks that I've had, I've had some that have actually been made by people in my community, who are just wonderful, lovely volunteers. So, in my free time, I actually enjoy participating in community theater. And when this whole outbreak began, the seamstresses and costumers that are a part of the theater made this beautiful effort and sewed all of these fantastic masks out of 100% cotton and then took them to the hospitals and gave them to the doctors and nurses there. And I thought that was a wonderful thing that they did. I found that just washing them like you would wash normal clothes is a very appropriate way to take care of them.

Dr. Johnson: I like that one, and I like the Costco version of it. I don't remember what it's called. Kirkland brand Free and Clear, or something like that.

Dr. Tarbox: I found that the Tide cleansers are a little bit more harsh to the skin, and even their Tide Free and Clear still causes problems for me and some of my patients. So I tend to avoid that one.

Dr. Johnson: Sometimes it's not time to do laundry and I still want to wash my mask. So we've just washed them by hand just with a little bit of laundry detergent on our fingers, or wash them in the kitchen sink and then put them in the dish dryer to dry. That seems to work okay.

Dr. Tarbox: I think that's a great way to do that. And then you also want to make sure that if you are having to wear a mask every day, your skin can get really irritated. There are some adaptations that you can make. Some of the masks tie behind the headset instead of behind the ears. So potentially altering the style of mask you wear day to day might help protect that skin behind your ears. There are also little straps or buttons on headbands to clip behind the head that will hold the ear loops of the mask.

Dr. Johnson: And for anybody out there who's an aspiring dermatology nerd, there are medical, fancy terms for all this stuff. So the medical term for maskne is Acne Mechanica, and it can also occur with anything else that's sort of rubbing or lying on the skin. I know it's seen in military recruits who have to wear backpacks all the time, for example. And then the medical term for your poor sore earlobes after you've been wearing a mask all day is acanthoma fissuratum. There you go. We make up words to sound smarter than we are.

Dr. Tarbox: Science! So, before this outbreak, the most common place that I would see what we call maskne, what we technically call Acne Mechanica, was in my football players who were wearing chin straps and masks because they were playing football. And it being Texas, you see a lot of that.

Dr. Johnson: And the other thing I think is that's helpful to know is if you do get some of the acne stuff onto your mask, one of my favorite over-the-counter products is benzoyl peroxide. It's in a lot of acne treatment products. So look for that particular ingredient. It comes in a lot of different ways. It comes as little spot treatment pads or gels or cleansers. I kind of like it as a cleanser, because I figure you're washing your face anyway, might as well put some medicine in there, but it works fine as a spot treatment if you just have one or two spots.

Dr. Tarbox: It will bleach your towels.

Dr. Johnson: And potentially your clothing.

Dr. Tarbox: And if you have lighter colored hair, it can get your hair.

Dr. Johnson: And I want to agree with everybody that the Coronavirus sucks. I'm sick of it.

Dr. Tarbox: One hundred percent. It is not our favorite thing. If you are treating the acne, you want to be a little bit more gentle than you normally would be. So I wouldn't go for the mega acne control hot lava cream. Use the sensitive skin products right now. Take it a little bit easy on your skin.

Dr. Johnson: Yes, I'm very proud to be part of the University of Utah Department of Dermatology. It's a great place to live, Salt Lake City. It's great place to work. And if you are a super dermatology nerd and are interested in sort of some of the research behind it, Michelle and I have another podcast. It's called "Dermasphere" and it's really intended for dermatologists. Maybe you're a dermatologist. What do I know? But maybe you're just dermatologically curious. If so, you can check out "Dermasphere" on your podcast platform as well.

Dr. Tarbox: Well, we'll be releasing a new episode in two weeks and we hope to see you there. Thank you for learning with us about the skin today here at "Skincast."

Dr. Jones: If you or someone you love is pregnant or considering getting pregnant during the COVID-19 epidemic, what do we know about this virus and its effects on pregnancy?

Viruses are not all the same. And when it comes to pregnancy, some viruses like the measles virus can cause birth defects in the fetus and some like the chickenpox virus can make pregnant moms really sick, which is bad for the baby, and some like the common cold are just a nuisance. Imagine sneezing when you have a big baby's head on your bladder. Well, what do we know about the COVID-19 virus in pregnancy? Of course, we can't take a bunch of women who are pregnant and randomize them to getting the virus or not and see what happens. So how do we find out? With us today is

Dr. Torri Metz, a specialist in high-risk pregnancy, a perinatologist, and chief of the division of OB-GYN research at the University of Utah. And thanks so much for taking some time for us in this very complicated time. Dr. Metz.

Dr. Metz: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jones: So how did you find out about the effects of COVID-19 in pregnancy? Ask one lady in your clinic or sure it was a big deal?

Dr. Metz: We actually just completed the first phase of a large multi-center study looking at the effects of COVID in pregnancy. For the study, we ran it through the NICHD Maternal-Fetal Medicine Units Network, which is funded by the National Institutes of Health. And as part of that network, we have 14 states that are represented with 33 different sites. And from those sites, we did an observational study where we collected all of the women who were pregnant with a positive test for SARS-CoV-2 which is the virus that causes COVID-19 in both the inpatient and the outpatient setting, and then we abstracted detailed information from their medical records to look at how COVID affects pregnancy and how different disease severity with COVID-19 affects pregnancy outcomes.

Dr. Jones: So these were women from all over the country, right?

Dr. Metz: Yes. Yep.

Dr. Jones: And different racial and ethnic groups and levels of income and education and everything.

Dr. Metz: Yes. The MFMU really does have representation across all of those different groups. And I think that's one of the nice things about this study is that it gives us information for women across the United States and not just in one place.

Dr. Jones: Okay. Well, how did COVID-19 infection affect the pregnant women, the women themselves?

Dr. Metz: Yeah. So that's an excellent question. You know, we found that when we broke patients down by disease severity that about 12% of these pregnant women who tested positive for the virus had either severe or critical COVID-19. Meaning that in those cases, patients typically require hospitalization because they're requiring things like oxygen support. And so, we were surprised that the proportion was that high that would require hospitalization because they became that ill.

Dr. Jones: Right. And so if you age control, so for women who aren't pregnant of the same age, the rate of severe or critical illness, is it 5%? What is it in the general population of women who aren't pregnant?

Dr. Metz: Yeah, it's a little bit hard to compare these data just because we actually used NIH classifications for disease severity, which have not been used in all of the studies, but we do know that pregnant women are at higher risk of needing things like going ICU admission, requiring a ventilator to help them breathe, and of death. And so, you know, we were expecting that it would be a little bit higher, but 12% is a decent proportion that required hospitalization and is higher than that, which is estimated in the general population.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. No, that's critical. And when I think about the moms and, you know, especially this later in pregnancy was where you got a lot of this information for women who were far along, it's hard to breathe when there's so much baby in there.

Dr. Metz: Yes, that's definitely true.

Dr. Jones: Well, so then how did COVID-19 affect the fetus?

Dr. Metz: So we think that really did have effects on both moms and babies. And really though those effects were mostly isolated to the patients who develop severe or critical illness and we really didn't see the same adverse effects in patients who had mild to moderate illness or those patients who maybe had a cough or runny nose and got tested and had SARS-CoV-2 virus, but didn't get ill.

Dr. Jones: Okay.

Dr. Metz: And those women who got more sick who did have severe or critical illness and needed to be hospitalized, the rates of them having complications were very high. And so, very often, they needed a cesarean delivery that happened about 60% of the time, and those patients that had severe or critical illness, they also developed more frequently high blood pressure in pregnancy that happened about 40% of the time in those patients. And then in terms of the babies, about 40% of them were delivered prematurely and required neonatal ICU admission.

Dr. Jones: It wasn't so much that the virus made the baby sick or cause birth defects. It was that the fetus was growing in a critically ill mom. And so that made the baby have to be prematurely born or had fetal distress. Do I get that right?

Dr. Metz: Yes. That's all right. You know, these patients, really the majority of them that we studied were in their third trimester of pregnancy because we wanted to study birth outcomes. And so they needed to have delivered by the end of July to be included in the study. And so, really at that point, it was really only women who were late in pregnancy that had contracted SARS-CoV-2 and would have delivered by that time. We still don't really have information about things like birth defects because we have not yet been able to follow enough women who would have had an infection in the first trimester all the way through delivery to be able to look at that.

Dr. Jones: Okay. Well, so now what are your recommendations to women who are pregnant as we're still in the middle of this pandemic? Now you have this information and in your own clinic or when you talk to your colleagues, what are you recommending to women who are pregnant?

Dr. Metz: I think this comes up in a couple of different settings. One is, you know, when patients do develop COVID-19 infections during pregnancy or acquire COVID-19 infections, they have questions about anticipated outcomes. And I think that we can tell patients who have mild illness that we aren't seeing a signal for adverse outcomes in those pregnancies, but I think that we still need to really be telling pregnant patients that they need to do all they can to avoid contracting the virus during pregnancy because a substantial portion of them will go on to get severe and critical illness. And those patients definitely do have increased risk of adverse pregnancy outcomes. And so, encouraging patients still wearing a mask at all times when they're outside, really trying to keep that bubble around them small, and practicing really good hand hygiene.

Dr. Jones: Now, this is more personal, Dr. Metz, but you've been actively caring for women during this pandemic in clinic and you've been on labor and delivery and you're in our own home institution. And how are you and your family doing and staying safe during this time? You come and go, you see people who are pretty sick.

Dr. Metz: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, honestly, it's just about following those same practices that we recommend to everyone in the public. I mean, as healthcare providers, you know, there are sometimes special precautions that we take especially when we're taking care of somebody that we know has an active infection, but outside of that, it's doing all the things that we're asking everyone else to do, wearing a mask at all times and washing my hands many, many times a day, and having my family do the same in our interactions with each other. I think it's a hard time for everybody, but we have good information now about how this virus is transmitted and know ways to help stop transmission.

Dr. Jones: Well, thank you. That's really helpful because people who are making decisions about whether they're going to go out into the world or whether they're going to want people not to come in without a mask or not have people come in who are outside their family, these are important things that we can use to help women make those decisions and maybe even it might help inform them if they are deciding to be vaccinated or not.

Dr. Metz: That absolutely has come up as well. I think as people are starting to think about vaccination and pregnancy, a lot of patients have questions about that and this is another piece of that puzzle and counseling that we can give patients about the frequency of increased disease severity and what we expect in terms of pregnancy outcomes with this virus. So I think it can weigh into those conversations as well for sure.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. Those are critical conversations I'm sure that you do many times a day as well. Thank you. Now, for those of your listening for you and your doctor, knowing about the risks of COVID-19 in pregnancy gives you the information that can help you and those around you be more careful about exposures and can help you to seek testing and care early if you have symptoms. So thanks to Dr. Metz for her time. And for those of you listening, stay safe out there, and thanks for joining us on The Scope.