Search for tag: "organ donation"

Donating your child's organs when the unthinkable happens is not normally something parents ever think of. If you've been following my recordings, you know that a dear friend lost her teenage daughter recently. We had been very close to her daughter since she was a baby. And it was amazing that even in this difficult time, my friend thought of others. Her daughter was an organ donor. She improved the lives of at least six other children by this selfless act.

Before I was a pediatrician, I worked in organ transplant as one of the original 12 organ placement specialists for UNOS, the United Network for Organ Sharing. My job was to take information on those who had been declared brain dead, enter it into the computer, and find matches. That means finding those people waiting on the transplant list, who were genetically similar enough to the persons whose organs were being offered and coordinate with the transplant teams on both sides to get lifesaving organs from one person to another.

People can declare if they want to be organ donors on their driver's licenses or in their wills. But what happens when a child passes? Parents have to make that decision under the most difficult of circumstances. The process starts when a child is admitted to the intensive care unit and the doctors there suspect that the child will not recover from their injuries. They will discuss if the parents are interested in donating their child's organs if their child is declared brain dead.

Brain death happens when the brain essentially stops being able to do what it normally does — think, feel, and tell the body what to do. It cannot be reversed. While the heart can continue to beat and machines can keep a patient breathing, the brain is no longer working. A child may appear to be sleeping, but they're not. They're kept alive by machines and medicines. When the machines are turned off, the rest of the body will die, just as the brain already has.

Specific exams are done by specialists to confirm brain death. Someone is never declared brain dead without all of those tests being done to confirm that the brain is no longer functioning. Once brain death has been declared, someone from the local transplant team, called the organ procurement organization, will come and meet with the family. They are usually medical personnel with special training in how to handle this most sensitive situation. They will be able to answer questions and help the family through the process.

Once parents give consent, the paperwork begins, and that is where what I did comes in. When donors and recipients are matched, organ placement specialists will help with transportation to get the organs to where they need to go. Once everything is coordinated, the donor is taken to the operating room where the organs that were placed are then removed from the body and the machines are turned off, and thus, the patient has now become cardiac dead. Their heart stopped beating and they are gone.

The donor patient can have a full open casket funeral if desired. The organ procurement team works closely with funeral homes to make sure this can happen. For privacy, the recipients of the patient's organs are not disclosed to the donor family. But the organ procurement team does let the family know how many organs were able to be transplanted into waiting recipients.

While nothing can make the pain of losing a child suddenly better, families often say that knowing that, during the tragedy of their loss, they were able to give the precious gift of life to another and that helps the healing process begin. Their child will live on through those they have helped.

Knowing their friend was an organ donor started the conversation with my boys. They both told me that they would like to be donors if anything happened to them. They know their father and I are both registered donors as well. If you would like to be an organ donor, you can sign up at UNOS, UNOS.org/register-to-be-an-organ-donor. I would like to dedicate this podcast to all who have made the choice to donate and save another life. Thank you.

Interviewer: When many people think of organ donation, we tend to think of adults and ourselves and did we check the box. But kids need organs too. Kids and organ donation. That's next on The Scope.

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Interviewer: Dr. Jill Sweney is a Pediatric Intensive Care Physician and she sees both sides of the organ donation process with very young children. Dr. Sweney, I wanted to ask you a question. So it's your job, if a child looks like they're going to die, to go to the family and talk to them about would you like to have your child's organs donated. That must be really hard. It is a very tough situation and now you're going asking them for something. Tell me about that.

Dr. Sweney: It never gets easier. Generally, after we deliver the bad news that you we don't think their child is going to make it, we give them time to process that and then we do go talk to them about the potential of their child's organs being able to be transplanted. We have a good relationship with our organ procurement organization and they help us with some of those conversations. But some families don't have any knowledge about organ donation or the potential.

Interviewer: They never even considered it? Yeah.

Dr. Sweney: They never talked about it with their families before. And so more often than not, they are very interested in something good coming out of the worst day of their life.

Interviewer: I try to put myself in your situation. I have to go up to this family now, worst day of their life, and try to give them this information. It would be easier not to have to do that. Your life would be easier.

Dr. Sweney: Yes.
Interviewer: But yet you still do it. Why?

Dr. Sweney: I get to see both sides and I say, "I get to" because it really is an honor to get to be so influential in these families. We also get to see organ recipients, kids that have been in the hospital most of their lives with illness who then come out and make improvements as soon as the new organs are put in.

Interviewer: That quickly?

Dr. Sweney: Yes. It's often fun to see, especially with the kidney donors. They may not have had any urine output for sometimes even years. To see the family see that they're making urine so quickly is really, really inspiring.

Interviewer: Changing diapers just becomes a blessing.

Dr. Sweney: It does. It does.

Interviewer: Yeah. So you see both sides of it. You've seen how organs can dramatically change a child's life. But yet there's still a shortage of organ donors, not only for children but for adults as well. Am I correct in that?

Dr. Sweney: Right. Right. And that's another unfortunate side of working in the ICU is that we, unfortunately, do still see kids that are on the waiting list who have waited just too long and they pass away.

Interviewer: Why is there that shortage? Do you have any idea, any knowledge?

Dr. Sweney: I think it's partially awareness. I think that a lot of us think we would certainly want to do that, but we haven't had the conversation with our loved ones. And in that moment of stress, when they need to make a decision, they don't they don't know what we would want to or if we're passionate about it. Just having a conversation at the dinner table with your family about if something bad was to happen if that's something they would want to do.

Interviewer: I guess I never considered child organ donation before. How young can a child be and still be able to donate organs? Is there any sort of age limit?

Dr. Sweney: Not really. We've had donors in infancy. Certainly heart donors and small babies, there are plenty of kids waiting for new hearts due to congenital malformations and even kidneys are being used clear down to a very small size.

Interviewer: One of the challenges, I think, is how do you get somebody that is not an organ donor to be an organ donor. What would you say to that person? What are some of the things you say to help them make that decision a little easier for them?

Dr. Sweney: I think stories are probably the best way to convince people. There isn't a donor or recipient story that isn't powerful. They're all amazing. The people who have to make those decisions for their loved ones are amazing people that are giving a gift that they're not going to see as much of the payoff from, so to speak, as the parents of the recipient, to see the hope that they've had and then to be able to see that their child is actually going to get out of the hospital. Telling those stories, I think, are the best and the most convincing.

Interviewer: What are some of the other benefits of organ donation for the donor? We talk about just thinking of I've given my organs. A single organ donor, a lot of times, can affect five, six, seven people's lives. It's not just one person. But what other benefits have you seen that the donor gets?

Dr. Sweney: So I think that the donor's family, you see a sense of peace in them where they can now start to make sense of all of the whys and kind of "now what." After the death of a loved one, they can know that they live on and that their loved one made a difference. That's bigger than anything they could do while they were alive.

Interviewer: Certainly bigger than donating blood, which is what the giving the gift of life . . . this is really the gift of a life and not just in the physical living sense. Completely changing somebody's life, a child who now can go out and play and learn and grow up.

Dr. Sweney: Yes, absolutely. That's really what makes it worth having those conversations.

Interviewer: Do you have any resources for parents or anybody that's considering organ donation, whether it's they want to have the conversation at the dinner table that you recommend about their children or about themselves that they can get some more facts or information?

Dr. Sweney: The United Network of Organ Sharing, or UNOS, is a great resource, as well as our local organ donation organization, which is Intermountain Donor Services. They have a lot of information on their website as well.

Interviewer: Any final thoughts? Anything I forgot to ask or anything you feel compelled to say?

Dr. Sweney: I don't think it's ever too early to have conversations with any of your loved ones, whether it be your parents, your siblings or even your children. Most children are incredibly interested and these days most of us know somebody who has been affected by either donating or receiving organs. I don't think it's ever too early to have those conversations.

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Interviewer: If you're this close to wanting to be an organ donor but maybe there's a myth or a misconception that you just need to clear up before you can finally check that box that, "Yes, you want to donate" then this is the podcast for you. I'm going to clear up common misconceptions and myths about organ donation next on The Scope.

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Interviewer: The month of April is Donate Life Month and if you are hesitant to check that box that says, "Yes, I will be an organ donor" because you have a misconception or maybe you've heard something. We're going to try to dispel some of those right now. Jill Sweney is a doctor, she's a pediatric intensive care physician, and let's talk about some of the common myths and misconceptions about organ donation. I think the first one is someone else is going to do it.

Dr. Sweney: Right. And I think that that's something that most of us have in our minds is that other people have checked the box on their driver's license as well. And that's just not the case. I think so many of us are renewing our driver's license and don't even think about what that check box means. And we also don't talk to our families about what we would want if something were to happen to us.

Interviewer: And I think in my case too, I think every time I get there I see that check box and I think, "Oh boy, this is a decision I probably should put more thought into than I have. So I'm not going to check it this time, but four years from now I will."

Dr. Sweney: Exactly.

Interviewer: I wonder if that happens.

Dr. Sweney: I'm sure it does. We're all in a hurry at the DMV. The other thing is I think there's a lot of misconception as to the quality of care you would get having that box checked. Organ donation is something that really does not even come to the minds of physicians until we're all ready having difficult conversations about the end of life.

Interviewer: I think that's another common maybe myth or misconception is that the fear that the doctor might hasten my death to get to my organs, but that cannot happen.

Dr. Sweney: No, and actually when the first conversations happen about organ donation, we invite a separate entity to have those conversations. All hospitals in the United States have a designated organ procurement or organ donation organization in their area, and we invite those coordinators to come have those conversations.

Interviewer: And at what point are they invited to have those conversations, when the patient is pretty sure that they're not going to live or...?

Dr. Sweney: Yes. And actually in the case of donors after brain death, it is after the determination of brain death has been made.

Interviewer: And then brain death is death.

Dr. Sweney: Yes.

Interviewer: As commonly people know as death. What about this misconception that I'm not going to be able to have an open casket funeral if I donate all of my organs?

Dr. Sweney: Yeah, that's actually very common, but these incisions are very small and would not be seen in a dressed individual.

Interviewer: What about the "ick" factor? It's kind of gross to think about that moment where somebody might take my organs out of me, or even worse that my moment where I might die before I'm ready to.

Dr. Sweney: I think that the "ick" factor could very easily be subsided with education as far as who are the recipients of these organs. There are children, there are moms, there are dads, and there are people that are going to be able to go outside and play where they weren't able to before. And in looking at it that way, there's just not a lot of "ick" associated with that.

Interviewer: Yeah. So when we talk about all these real people, these moms, dads, brothers, sisters, children that these organs can help, how many people can a single organ donor, how many lives can that person change?

Dr. Sweney: So it's actually up to about five to seven different recipients can benefit. It used to be just more the kidneys and the heart are what we thought about. But now we can actually transplant the pancreas and relieve someone of the burden of Type 1 diabetes. There are a growing number of diseases that are treated and even cured with a liver transplant, especially in children. Relieving the burden of daily dialysis with a kidney transplant, and that's actually two recipients. Each of them get one of the kidneys.

Interviewer: And then what about tissues? What are some of the tissues that are used in that instance?

Dr. Sweney: So if the heart itself cannot be transplanted, the heart valves can be used. And those are very commonly replaced in both adults and children. Some of the skin can be used in burn patients. I think people are very unaware of the number of joint surgeries that are done where bone is actually used from a donor. And then corneas can be transplanted, and that's quite remarkable because many of the recipients are unable to see and then are free of glasses.

And honestly even donors whose organs are maybe not functioning to the degree that you'd want to put them in another individual, there's a lot of these organs that are used for very important research -- liver cells, kidneys, skin. Research is happening with those all over.

Interviewer: Obviously it's the decision that can change somebody's life, but it's also a kind of decision that a lot of us kind of have to come to, I think, with the right information and weighing the pros against the cons. Is there some place else that somebody, that maybe we've gotten a step closer to donating could go to do a little bit more research.

Dr. Sweney: The UNOS, the United Network of Organ Sharing website is a good resource as well as our local Intermountain Donor Services website.

Interviewer: What would be one takeaway that you would want somebody to have taken out of this conversation? If you could only get one message across, this is it.

Dr. Sweney: I think to make this decision before you're forced to. Ask loved ones what their preference would be and really take the burden off of yourself in that time by having that conversation beforehand.

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Scot: You may have read a couple stories in the news recently about something called Live Donor Kidney Chains. What exactly is that? It's where your kidney could help start a chain that would help a lot of other people is what it is. Dr. Jeffrey Campsen is a transplant surgeon at the University of Utah and you're getting pretty good at this here at the University Utah, these transplant chains. Tell me about what they are.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: So it's interesting. The Live Donor Kidney Transplant Program at the University of Utah has been going on for quite a few years. Quite often if someone's in renal failure and they have someone who would like to donate a kidney to them, sometimes that's incompatible. So while they have somebody who would want to donate a kidney, it can't be done.

Scot: Kind of like a friend or family member maybe really wants to help.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: That's exactly right.

Scot: Yeah.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: And so what we've seen is we'll talk to the donor and say, "Would you be okay donating your kidney to somebody else if they also have somebody that would then donate a kidney to your recipient? And it starts to form a chain. And it's very complicated in how these chains work out but recently over the past six months we've been able to do three chains that were three pairs deep. So you actually do six surgeries and three people get transplanted. All three kidney recipients had donors that weren't perfect for them and we were able to match them up and create a chain which then at the end of the day now all those people are off of dialysis, all the donors have gotten their recipients transplanted, but it wasn't to the person they originally wanted to but we still were successful at the end.

Scot: But it was even better because if, for example, you needed a kidney, I agreed to transplant it that's only one person that's helped. These chains have helped up to three people each time.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: Oh yeah. It's fascinating. And so you start out by wanting to help somebody and then at the end of the day, you're right, you've transplanted three patients. And what's interesting is we do this over the course of say 48 hours so we do all six surgeries in one to two, to three days. Then all six patients are actually in the hospital on the same floor and what we've found is they're all out walking, getting better and they meet each other and they're like, "You donated a kidney?" "No, I got a kidney." "Oh, you donated his kidney." And now we're finding they're going down and having lunch together in the hospital, they're getting together. Then their family members are meeting and we've seen this now where there are the six people that have had the transplants plus their family members and we're having groups of people in the hallways of like 20 and everybody's happy and it's amazing.

Scot: It must... Does that help their healing process? Because you hear so much about, you know, the mind is so important and your spirits.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: Obviously it helps. I think if you're that positive and you see the joy and the success of this, people are just going to do better. And it's really a community coming together to help one another. And then when everybody leaves the hospital they go back to their lives and they're healthy and it's very successful.

Scot: So if I wanted to donate a kidney to somebody how do I become part of this chain?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: Well, so there are a couple things that you can do. One is if you know somebody in renal failure and kidney failure and you want to be their donor then you talk to them and you come to the transplant center. But what you're also talking about is also altruistic donors, non-directed donors, someone who's just interested in starting a chain. And we've had quite a few of those lately.
There was a story recently in the paper where one of our dialysis nurses was doing dialysis for our children and he just felt like he wanted to do more so he wanted to offer up his kidney to start a chain. He was able to start a chain that transplanted three people. Two of them were actually children and one was an adult. And we pair with Primary Children's Medical Center on these chains to get them done.
So he started a chain as an altruistic donor but the chains can also just start because you also know somebody in renal failure. But you can come to our transplant center, call our transplant line. We have two transplant coordinators, Sarah and Bruce, that will immediately take your call, talk to you about the donation. There's a website that we have that's coming up right now that explains all of live donation. It'll have videos on it and it'll go through the process. You'll get to know the people that are involved, the nephrologists, the transplant surgeons, the social workers, the coordinators, even our financial people that will help guide you through the insurance.

Scot: And this chain can go nationwide?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: It can be. So there are a couple things that we've done. There are local chains which will just stay within our program or Primary Children's locally in the Salt Lake City area or if we can't find a chain to do it here we're actually part of a national organization, two national organizations actually: one through UNOS and one through NKR, the National Kidney Registry, that allows us to do large chains. And I think one of the chains we did this past year went to be about 20, 21 transplants.

Scot: Twenty-one. Are you kidding?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: That's absolutely true. I think our goal is to basically get our local patients transplanted and if we're able to help people nationally that's wonderful too especially because the organs come back to us nationally.

Scot: Any final thoughts?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: If you're interested in live kidney donation, think about your kidney going to other people besides your recipient and then knowing that your recipient will get transplanted but if you're able to help multiple people and do that kind of good, then consider doing that. We'll never force anybody not to donate to the person they want to but not always is that choice and if you're available to help more than one person that's pretty neat.

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Scot: You may have heard in the news about a live donor kidney chain, that was started a few months ago, by a donor named Ted Bartling. Meaning, he came in, said I want to donate my kidney to somebody and, in doing that, many other people volunteered to donate their kidney and lives were improved and saved. We're talking with Dr. Jeffrey Campsen, surgical director of Live Donor Kidney Transplants. Let's talk about kidney donation. Let's talk about how you could do it, how safe is it, and how does it really improve somebody's life.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: So, Ted Bartling is a good example. This is an individual that felt like he really wanted to do something for his community. He's very productive in the world, has a great job, but he felt something was missing; He wanted to do something more. So, he comes to us and says I'd like to donate my kidney. Well, we have a bunch of patients that actually have donors, but they're not compatible. We were able to create a chain of three kidney transplants from him.

Scot: How does somebody come to want to donate a kidney? How does that decision come to be?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: So I think there are a couple reasons and there are a couple types of individuals. There's people that are within the family of someone who has kidney disease and they cannot stand to see their family member dying and, basically, they're the hero that goes in and can, literally, save this person's life. The second type of person is someone who feels like they want to do something for their community. So they come in and they, basically, say look, I want to donate my kidney to somebody and, a lot of times, it's to one person that they don't know, and, other times, they start a chain. We've done that here in Utah recently, where they can start a chain of three, four, five kidney transplants in a row. So, their ability to donate one kidney, ultimately, can help anywhere between one patient to five patients.

Scot: I love that. I might donate a kidney if I knew that, maybe, it would get a chain going.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: So if someone comes in, wanting to donate a kidney, even if they have a recipient, we ask them if they'd be willing to donate to someone other than their own recipient. We look at other patients, that have donors that are incompatible, and we see if we can pair them up.

Scot: It's like solving a puzzle. You've got all the pieces, you just have to figure out how they best go together.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: That's exactly right and the University of Utah has a transplant team who specializes in solving kidney transplant puzzles.

Scot: Do you find that donors tend to fall in some sort of a demographic group? Is it people later in life? Is it richer people, poorer people?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: No, it's all people. We had some very young donors come by lately. Meaning 18 and 19 years old.

Scot: Eighteen and nineteen? Really? And, did you ask them why?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: Well, one girl, who actually ended up donating, wants to go to medical school. She actually wants to be a transplant surgeon and she felt that there would be no better way to understand her patients than if she actually donated her kidney.

Scot: Wow. That's dedication, on a couple of levels.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: It is, but on the same hand, we just transplanted a pair, where the husband's kidney failed, and he's in his 60's, and his wife is 60, and she donated her kidney to him. Now, they come in together as a couple and their going to live their lives a lot longer because now, he's not on dialysis, and it's going to extend his life. So it's the spectrum, both sides, and, then, there's a bunch of people in the middle.

Scot: If I give up one of my kidneys, I have two of them, and even that one is more than I need, are there concerns that I would have? Like, I might want both, just in case one of them fails.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: Our priority, in this entire conversation, is the safety of the donor. So, we have a live donor kidney transplant team, here at the University of Utah, that specializes in making sure that the donors will be safe after transplant.

Scot: How many people actually donate kidneys?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: There are thousands of people, each year, that donate kidneys. Interestingly, kidney donation in the United States peaked around 2004, with about 7000 people that year donating. Since then, it's actually trickled off. I think, the last year, in 2012, only about 4 or 5 thousand people were donating. So, for some reason, it's gone down and one of the things that we wanted to do today was, basically, raise awareness that this is very safe for the donor and that's our priority, but, also, it is the best way to do a kidney transplant. The results are better than any other way to do a kidney transplant.

Scot: So a live kidney is much better than a kidney from somebody that passed away and was an organ donor.

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: That's exactly right. For lack of a better word, we only cherry-pick the very best kidneys for live donation, again, for the safety of the donor. Where as a cadaveric donor, while those kidneys are very good, that patient has died and, from that death, the kidneys have sustained some trauma and, so, there's a difference in the quality of the kidney, but if that's all that's available, that's what we're going to use because that kidney transplant is still vastly superior to dialysis.

Scot: Tell me about the lifestyle impacts of the recipient of a kidney donation. How does it change their life, in your experience?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: Well, one, they no longer have kidney failure. It sounds simple, but that's true. Kidney failure is life ending. Then, two, the way that they've survived at this point is probably they're on dialysis. So it stops dialysis. Dialysis is three times a week, four hours at each run, and you don't feel great afterwards. So, all of a sudden, they have all this free time, they feel better, and, again, a machine can't replace a human organ. So, the quality of filtration that the kidney transplant is doing is better than any other method and they just feel better.

Scot: And what are your final thoughts?

Dr. Jeffrey Campsen: I think that if you're able to donate your kidney, that's wonderful. What you can do is you can, basically, help somebody, you can be a hero to your community and that person, and, then, the ripple effect that happens from that is then that person goes back into the community and helps the community as a functioning person.

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Interviewer: Organ donors save lives, but for some reason it can be kind of scary checking the "Yes" box that you want to be an organ donor when you get your drivers license or ID. You might have some questions. Well, hopefully we'll answer some of those coming up next on The Scope.

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Interviewer: I think most people know that being an organ donor is a good thing, but for some reason there might be some questions or some concerns that you have that keep you from saying, "Yes. I want to be an organ donor," when you get your drivers license. We're going to talk about some of those right now with Dr. Jeffrey Campsen, transplant surgeon at the University of Utah Hospital. First of all, if something was to happen to me and I was an organ donor, what organs would be used to help other people?

Dr. Jeff Campsen: From a solid organ transplant, which is what I do, the heart is usable. Both lungs are usable. They can go to actually individual people. The liver is usable. The liver can actually be split and go to two individuals. Both kidneys are usual. The pancreas is usable. The intestines are usable. And then expanding out from there, corneas, tissues, bone are all on the table for donation and other parts of the body, if they're not available for transplant, can actually be used for research.

Interviewer: That sounds pretty awesome. All these different organs can go help 10 or 15 people potentially, it sounds like. Why aren't more people checking "Yes" do you think?

Dr. Jeff Campsen: I think there's a couple reasons. I think that there's always a fear of death, and who wants to think about their death? Some people do, but most people don't. So avoidance of that conversation is very easy. Once you start talking about it in a time that's not emotionally charged, rationally, it sounds very good in the sense that if you do die, you can help people. I think it also provides a lot of closure for your family members and your loved ones to know that even though there was this tragedy, something really great came out of it. It's almost, like, you've become a hero in your death. I think another reason that people are scared sometimes is misinformation that people are going to try to take their organs early. The Institute of Medicine, which is a formal body governed in the United States has made very strict rules about organ donation, it's highly regulated, and about brain death. No one can donate their organs unless they are brain-dead. There's tests that have to be confirmed then reviewed. I think when people realize that it's not waiting around to try to take organs, but it's the process of dying that then you can get something out of after you're death. Again, in a non-emotional setting you understand that it's very helpful. I think the final thing is that people have a lot of deep, personal beliefs in their faith and religion. The good news is that over many years, many of the different religions have come to think about this and embrace it and realize that it's something that's acceptable. I think you just check and talk to the people in your faith and see what they think.

Interviewer: If I choose to be an organ donor, can I have an open casket funeral?

Dr. Jeff Campsen: Absolutely. Absolutely. The incisions where the donations are made are hidden, and the organ procurement organizations which are called the OPOs actually work with the medical examiner's office as well as the funeral home directors about exactly how the family and the person themselves want themselves to be presented at time of funeral, and we respect those.

Interviewer: What is the process of organ donation?

Dr. Jeff Campsen: When someone comes to the hospital and they've had an injury that results in brain death, there's an organization called an organ procurement organization, the OPO, and each region has one. Utah has one, California has one, so forth and so on. These individuals are highly trained specifically to approach families about organ donations. They're not involved with the University of Utah. They're not involved with the transplant surgeons. They're a separate organization. They approach the families and say, "The physicians that are taking care of your loved one has an unsurvivable injury and is brain-dead. Would you like to proceed with donation?" If you say, "We'd like to talk about that," they come in and they talk to you about it, and then you talk about how you would like to proceed with the donation. The drivers license allows them to come and talk to you, but also if they have not done that and you say "Yes" to it, then you have a conversation. Just because you're talking to them doesn't mean you're going to proceed, and just because you're proceeding with that doesn't mean that they take over. We work with the families on a minute-by-minute basis to make sure that donation benefits both the families as well as the patients receiving the organs.

Interviewer: As an organ transplant surgeon, it must frustrate you when people say that they're not going to donate their organ.

Dr. Jeff Campsen: It does frustrate me. I'm an organ donor. The people in my family are organ donors. It's something that I support probably because I see the good that comes out of it. Literally, these are not only life-extending procedures improvement in quality of life but life-saving procedures where many of the patients, especially those receiving heart, lungs, and livers, are literally going to die in the next month are so, and then they go onto live decades. We cure diabetes with the pancreas transplant. We take people off of dialysis with kidney transplants. It changes people's lives. It saves them. So when I'm dipped in that and I see that on a day-to-day basis, it is frustrating to know that people don't want to be involved in that. However, that's their choice, and that's okay, but this is why we're trying to educate people on this, and then they can make a rational decision at a non-emotional time if they do want to proceed and help people.

Interviewer: Any final thoughts? Any take-aways?

Dr. Jeff Campsen: These tragedies are going to happen. They happen every day, and that's unfortunate. There's nothing that we can do about that, but if donation is able to help with closure of the tragedy, help do good from that, I think it's very important, and I think people realize that after donation that even though they've lost somebody, they've helped other people, and it helps people move on.

Announcer: We're your daily dose of science, conversation, medicine. This is The Scope, the University of Utah Health Sciences Radio.