Search for tag: "back"

Interviewer: Before considering surgery for back pain, there could be other options you might want to consider first. Dr. Andrew Joyce is a physical medicine and rehabilitation specialist, focuses on non-surgical treatment of various muscle and spine issues. So here's a scenario. A patient has been told by another provider that their back pain might benefit from surgery. They come to you for a second opinion or just wanting to know if there's something that they can do before surgery. First question is there?

Dr. Joyce: Definitely. In the vast majority of cases, there's something that we can offer to at least try to ameliorate the pain before jumping to surgery. There's a variety of treatments that we look at, whether it be medications, therapies, modalities, or procedures to go and help manage people's pain.

Interviewer: And does that happen often that you end up talking to a patient that has been told surgery is what is going to help with their back pain and have not been told about some of these other options?

Dr. Joyce: Yes. I would say, you know, we're fortunate here at the university because most of the way our referrals are sent in, they get sent to us first to evaluate for non-operative treatments before we decide whether or not the patient would really benefit from surgery. But in the community, that's not always the case. And so it's not uncommon for patients to have back pain or pain originating from their back and sciatica, who see another provider who offers them surgery, and then come to us for a second opinion to see what else we can do.

Interviewer: Let's talk about some of the options that somebody might take. Where do you start that conversation?

Dr. Joyce: The first thing we do is we try to get a comprehensive physical and history from the patient. And what we're looking for is to try to identify what the exact source of the pain is. And so we'll review with you, you know, the history of your pain, where exactly is it located, we'll take a look at imaging, and we'll look at different other medical conditions which may factor into our decision. And then once we've looked at all of that, we'll discuss the different options that we can use for different procedures. And so it varies depending a little bit on which diagnosis we think you have.

Interviewer: And I think a lot of times patients think these non-surgical options tend to be like some sort of like a cortisone injection or something like that, which is definitely an option, but there are other options as well. So walk me through some of those options and how they might apply to a patient.

Dr. Joyce: So the most common injection and the ones that people call, you know, cortisone injections are basically steroid injections. And what matters is not necessarily that you're injecting steroid, it matters where you're injecting the steroids. So we use these steroid injections in various parts of the body depending on where we think your pain is coming from. So if you're having pain that's caused by a herniated disc pressing on a nerve, well then we would do an epidural steroid injection, where we place steroid in and around the epidural space to bathe that nerve and calm down any inflammation and irritation that's happening to the nerve. On the other hand, if you're having pain that we think is coming from your sacroiliac joint, which is a large joint at the base of the spine, then we would inject the steroid into the sacroiliac joint and use that to calm down inflammation and irritation to the area.

Interviewer: And then other than the injections, what are some of the other options that you can offer a patient and what situation with those apply?

Dr. Joyce: Some of the more common things when people have arthritis related pain in their back, we do a series of procedures where we do test blocks to help determine if the arthritis is truly the source of the pain. And those are called medial branch blocks. And if patients do feel substantially better after those test blocks, then there's another procedure called radiofrequency ablation, where we actually burn those little tiny branches of nerves that go to the joints and help relieve the pain. And those can actually be very durable. They can often last anywhere from six months to a year and a half, at which point we can repeat it and get similar pain relief.

Interviewer: And then I've also heard of electrical stimulation. Is that another option?

Dr. Joyce: Yeah, and this is kind of an emerging technology. Spinal cord stimulation itself has actually existed for over 50 years. But in the past 10 to 15 years, there's been huge advances in the technology that we can use for it. Now this is almost never a first line treatment that we use. But for people who are having severe pain in their back and aren't getting better, we can use electricity to kind of help modulate the pain signals. And so that involves putting electrical leads either in the epidural space behind the spinal cord or even more superficially, around nerves in the low back to help block the pain signals.

Interviewer: And then does the type of treatment that we've talked about, we've talked about injections, we've talked about the burning the nerves, we've talked about the electrical stimulation, does that really, really depend on the type of pain somebody has? Or are those options suitable for all types of pain and you just kind of cycle through one after another? I mean, is there some sort of a procedure you like to go through?

Dr. Joyce: No. Yeah, it definitely depends on the type of pain and where the source of the pain is. So, you know, if your pain is coming from purely the arthritis in your back and I do an epidural steroid injection, I'm not expecting you to get substantial relief of that pain. So it really depends on where the pain is. And where this becomes more complicated is when patients have more than one thing going on, right? It's not uncommon for patients to have arthritis in their back, that then causes some pressure on a nerve. And so they have more than one thing going on. And so then, in those cases, we will use more than one of these types of procedures to help with their pain. But really, it depends on what the source of their pain is.

Interviewer: And I'm kind of getting the feeling that back pain can be kind of a complicated thing. I mean, it sounds like you have to know what's causing it and then what treatments are the most effective for that type of pain, depending on what kind of pain, what's causing it, the location. How often just kind of after a couple of visits do patients find relief, versus you've kind of got to look a little bit further in the cases where patients might have multiple things going on?

Dr. Joyce: It depends on the patient. I would say, you know, for many of our more acute patients, so patients who have had pain for between 6 and 12 weeks, those patients tend to, on average, do a lot better, because they haven't had the pain for quite so long and oftentimes it's less complex. But certainly, when it gets more complicated, sometimes it does take a little bit of trial and error and some searching. And sometimes these injections can actually be helpful, both therapeutically to help people with their pain, but also diagnostically to help us determine the exact source of pain and help us get a better treatment program put together.

Interviewer: Kind of a mystery that you have to unravel in that case.

Dr. Joyce: Exactly.

Interviewer: Yeah. And then at what point would you even recommend somebody for surgery?

Dr. Joyce: Most common reasons that I will have someone be seen by surgery is back pain or neck pain going down their arms or their legs, with associated numbness, tingling, and in particular weakness. When people are having symptoms that are causing, you know, objective findings on our examination when they're objectively weak, that's when surgery is most indicated. And that's oftentimes when I will send them to surgeons earlier rather than later because we don't want patients to be left with any sort of neurological problems long term. And surgery is the only way to decompress nerves and help prevent that from happening.

Interviewer: Is weakness generally always a sign you're going to be sending somebody to surgery or not always?

Dr. Joyce: So it depends a little bit on having objective weakness, but also on the pattern of weakness. So we know certain nerves in the body go to certain muscles. And so we'd expect that if a nerve is being compressed and causing weakness, it would affect those muscles that it innervates. And so what we look for is to try to see if the pattern of weakness matches the nerve being pinched. And if that's the case, then surgery might be necessary.

Interviewer: And again, it just really sounds like coming to a specialist like you is really just a great step just to make sure.

Dr. Joyce: Yeah. I think at that point, if there's any concern that you might have weakness, or you're having neurological findings and you're not sure what to do, definitely seeing a specialist, like us, I think makes a lot of sense.

Interviewer: What you described, you know, choosing the right place for an injection, the type of injection you want to use sounds really, really complicated. What do you recommend a patient look for in a provider that's doing that type of work?

Dr. Joyce: You want to make sure that the person who is doing your injection has done hundreds of these types of injections and is well versed with it before you go in with them.

Interviewer: Whether that be through a fellowship that they did, that extra year after medical school specializing in this, or they've done numerous procedures over the length of their career.

Dr. Joyce: Agreed. Yeah.

Interviewer: You hurt your back. What can you do on your own, and when should you go see a doctor? Dr. Andrew Joyce is a physical medicine and rehabilitation specialist. He's also an expert at helping patients manage neck and back pain.

Dr. Joyce, I was shocked to find out that low back pain is the number two reason Americans see their healthcare provider. Is it for this kind of acute back pain that we're talking about that they're usually seeing their doctor for?

Dr. Joyce: In most cases, yes. I think a lot of people have chronic low back pain as well, but I think most of us tend to see a lot of acute low back pain, and particularly my primary care colleagues see tons of it.

Interviewer: And we're talking in this particular Q&A that we're doing together about acute back pain, which is back pain that you were just doing something and you hurt yourself, right? Is that kind of what we're talking about there?

Dr. Joyce: Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be doing anything in particular, but you wake up, you have back pain, and you don't know where it came from. Or you were lifting something and tweaked something, threw out their back is a common phrase that people will use, all of those count as what we're talking about today.

Interviewer: And technically, when you say "acute back pain," that's back pain that lasts less than four weeks, right, four weeks or less?

Dr. Joyce: Depending on which guidelines you use, some people say four weeks, some people say less than six weeks, but somewhere in that range.

Interviewer: All right. So, but if I hurt my back like one day, I don't know how long it's going to last. So is there a better way to kind of determine what type of back pain I have? I suppose if I was doing something, it's pretty obvious that, oh, well, I tweaked my back doing that. But like this wake up scenario, how could I tell that maybe that isn't a symptom of something bigger? Because a lot of times back pain is a symptom of other things, isn't it, you've got to kind of rule out?

Dr. Joyce: Yeah. Yeah. And so that's when we start looking at kind of these what we call red flags. So it's very common that people will hurt their back, and oftentimes the pain can be very severe and debilitating. Severity doesn't always correspond with something being necessarily worse. There's actually set of red flags that we look for to kind of try to triage and look for people who might be at risk for having other sources of back pain that warrant further investigation.

Interviewer: All right. So before we kind of get to then acute back pain, I think it's really important to hit those kind of red flags to somebody can make an informed decision that they need to see their healthcare provider sooner than later, or trying to take care over themselves. What are those red flags?

Dr. Joyce: Big ones are trauma. Obviously, if you were like in a car accident, that would factor in. If you have new fevers, numbness, tingling, weakness in your legs. If you have a history of cancer, if you're having any bowel or bladder changes, you use any blood thinners, have cancer, have IV drug use, all these things could put potentially be risk factors. And those were reasons that we'd want you to be evaluated more soon.

Interviewer: And if a patient doesn't believe that that's the case, if they truly just believe, oh, I must have slept funny, or I did something, what can a patient do on their own for acute back pain before they need to see a doctor? What are some recommendations you would have?

Dr. Joyce: Yeah. So the first thing we actually recommend is that you avoid bed rest. Fifty years ago, everyone got recommended, "Oh, just stay in bed, let yourself heal." And what we found is that we were actually giving people a lot of bad advice.

What we recommend now is actually that you try to stay as active as you can tolerate. For most people when they're having an acute back pain flare, they're pretty uncomfortable. So even simple things like getting up, showering, cooking a meal, eating can be somewhat uncomfortable, but our recommendations are to actually try to stay active because recovery is faster when you do that.

Interviewer: And is that because you're getting more blood to the area? What's going on there? Do we know?

Dr. Joyce: I'm not sure if we have exact answers on that. Some of it is that we're probably reducing some of the stiffness. When people have a lot of back pain, they don't move their muscles, they get really stiff and that can cause more pain.

I think we're also testing it. Some people with back pain are really afraid that they're going to do damage and so they don't do anything. And so then their muscles start getting weaker. Within a week, you can lose a large percentage of your overall muscle mass just by not moving and staying in bed. And so by keeping your muscle strong and keeping you moving, you help stretch and strengthen those muscles and help your body on the way to recovery.

Interviewer: And this extra moving, you're not going to hurt yourself most of the time. Is that correct?

Dr. Joyce: As long as you don't have one of those red flags, in most cases, you are able to go out and do whatever you need to do, knowing that there may still be some pain due to this flare-up. But it's safe to go out and be active. In fact, it's kind of the treatment of choice at that early stage.

Interviewer: All right. So get active or just be active as much as you can tolerate. What are some other things that a person could do before they go see a doctor?

Dr. Joyce: They can try over-the-counter medications. So nowadays, we have the Salonpas patches or other lidocaine patches that people can use. There are a variety of topical creams. There's Tylenol. There's oral anti-inflammatories that people can take. All of those are over-the-counter and are medications that patients can try out.

Additionally, this somewhat depends on your insurance plan, but sometimes you can get direct access to physical therapy without even needing to see a doctor in certain cases. And so that's often a reasonable place to start.

Interviewer: And then what amount of time doing those types of things should a patient wait until they start to see some relief or start to be concerned that, "Oh, maybe this isn't acute"?

Dr. Joyce: Yeah. So I would give it at least two weeks and see how you're feeling at that point. If at that point you're not getting better, that might be a good time to at least start scheduling an appointment with your doctor. Most patients with back pain will recover within two weeks.

The next set will kind of get better over the course of six weeks. And definitely if it's been over six weeks, it's probably worth seeing a physician to evaluate you.

Interviewer: And then when you come into your physician, you could go to a primary care physician, or could you come to an expert such as yourself at that point? What would you recommend there?

Dr. Joyce: If you have a good, established care with a primary care physician, I think that's a great place to start, and they will often be able to help you. If you have any concerns, or if for some reason you're not able to get in, or you don't have a primary care physician, we're always happy to see people and get people in from the ground up and make sure that they're getting treated appropriately.

Interviewer: All right. And then what types of things would you do at that point for a patient that has gone two to four weeks not necessarily seeing the kind of recovery that they'd like? What are you looking for at that point?

Dr. Joyce: Yeah. So, at that point, we likely would get some imaging, probably starting with an X-ray, just to check to see that the bony structures are intact and there's no new issues. And sometimes there are things on the X-rays that can clue us into other potential sources of pain that we might not otherwise be able to see just from our physical examination.

We'd prefer a full history and a physical examination to really get a better picture of the back pain and understand how it fits in with your other medical conditions and if there's any other rarer conditions that we really need to be looking at.

At that point, then we make a decision, based on everything, on what the next treatment plan should be, whether it be a formal referral to physical therapy, whether it be more advanced imaging in preparation for certain procedures, and considering different injections.

Interviewer: What about surgery at that point, or when does that come into play?

Dr. Joyce: Most patients don't need surgery. And that's one of the great things. The natural history of these, which means how people do if we do nothing and just let people live their lives, is that most people recover with it over time. It just can be very debilitating during that time.

And so, in most cases, surgery isn't recommended. If you do have one of those red flags, I think it's worthwhile to get evaluated, and then we can see whether surgery makes sense. But in most cases, there's nonsurgical options that we will try first and see if we can help get this under control or get your pain better before having you meet with the surgeons.

Interviewer: And then how about you using opioid medications for back pain? Is that ever a good idea?

Dr. Joyce: In most cases, I would say probably not. There are always exceptions to the rule, so I don't want to say never. But in general, opioids aren't really a first-line treatment for back pain. And if you look at the CDC or you look at other organizations, such as the American Academy of Family Medicine, they don't recommend opioids. And part of the reason is that they've been shown to have higher risks, which we all know through the opioid epidemic, but also no significant benefit when compared to other over-the-counter medications. So Tylenol and Advil versus opioids, the studies show that they're roughly equal in terms of controlling the pain and the opioids carry a much greater risk. So, in most cases, we try our best to avoid opioids because we don't want to risk our patient's health.

Interviewer: And when you're talking about over-the-counter painkillers for back pain, do you just follow the directions on the boxes to what your dosage should be, or generally do you recommend to your patients a higher dosage?

Dr. Joyce: It depends on the medication, but, in general, I probably will recommend for Tylenol, you can take up to two Extra Strength Tylenols, and you can do that three times a day as kind of a high-level dose of Tylenol.

And then for the anti-inflammatories, the low doses of the medication tend to be more pain relievers. And at the higher doses, they tend to have a little bit more anti-inflammatory effect. And so sometimes, for a medication like Advil, we can recommend up to three tablets of regular Advil three times a day.

Any more than that, you should probably be seeing a doctor or checking in with them to make sure you're not using too much medication because that can have other side effects.

Interviewer: If your loved one is experiencing some sort of serious spine issue, perhaps stenosis or herniated disc, you may be looking into spinal surgery. Now, typically you might be imagining your back being opened up for major surgery, but there's another option that is available.

We're here with Dr. Mark Mahan. He is an associate professor of neurosurgery at University of Utah Health. Now, Dr. Mahan, we're talking today about endoscopic surgery for the spine. Why don't you kind of talk me through exactly what happens with an endoscopic procedure like this and how it differs from say what I as a layperson think when I think about back surgery?

Dr. Mahan: Endoscopic spine surgery is very similar to what people would refer to as traditional spine surgery, meaning that we're the same goals. We're there to decompress the nerves and in doing so with either removing disc fragments or treating narrowing that presses on the nerve roots, but doing it in a much smaller, much less traumatic fashion than previously accessed.

For most of us, the spine is really kind of in the center of the body, so getting there is always an art, to put it mildly. The older techniques, they work great for treating their intended targets, but the problem is, is there's a fair amount of tissue trauma involved with getting there.

And I've been intrigued for quite some time of finding a way of doing that same surgery, but in a way that does not cause the same tissue disruption, tissue trauma, and as a consequence, the same sort of pain or disability and recovery.

Like for so many things in medicine, we stand on the shoulders of others. Other pioneers had really developed using endoscopes previously, starting in about the 1980s, to create the same surgical corridor but through a much smaller opening. So now with the modern surgical endoscopes, we get beautiful illumination. We get beautiful magnification. We get beautiful video representation of the soft tissues in a way that we're able to perform those same delicate procedures, but through oftentimes really small, like 7 millimeters size skin incisions. That's, you know, 7 millimeters means it's less than your nail width depending on your fingers, but somewhere between your index finger. That's how big the skin incision is.

So that also means that that translates it's not just the skin incision size, it's because now you're going to go down with a very narrow caliber set of tools. So the things that you're going to be doing is that you're not going to be opening up as widely. You're not going to be disrupting joints. You're not going to be getting as much bleeding because we're constantly irrigating.

In fact, the operative field never actually gets to see air. There's none of the circulating air even in an ultra sterile OR environment that actually makes contact with the tissue. We're using constant irrigation with sealing. And so, again, it provides beauty and clarity to the surgeon but also minimizes any risk of infection or other bleeding type complication with regard to the surgery itself.

Interviewer: And again, as someone who's a layperson who might be kind of curious about this, how long have surgeons in the medical field been doing this kind of procedure? It seems kind of new I guess to me.

Dr. Mahan: I'd say it hasn't been done at a large volume for quite some time. There were some initial pioneers who were in the 1980s when they were coming out with the initial endoscopes who were starting it and trying it.

And you can imagine what using 1980s technology meant kind of dark kind of grainy, not necessarily with the same precision. Things really got a boost I would say in the, you know, the 2010s with the introduction of more modern, you know, high-definition televisions, easier access to those techniques, and then just greater popularity.

So we started seeing that the endoscopic technique was really taking off in Germany, and there there's a couple of key innovations that allowed it to be safe for the spine. So whereas you can think of joints having arthroscopes, those are endoscopes specific for joints, those were a little earlier take on, but they were using really high-pressure pumps and those high-pressure pumps would be dangerous if not lethal in the spine. So we had to really develop lower pressure technologies. You had to develop specific tools sets that were able to do the same sort of meticulous and very detailed work we do with the spine.

We saw that those tools and techniques and instrumentation sets really start about 2010-ish, and so there's a very small fraction of spine surgeons in the United States who are trained to do this, unfortunately, because I think it's the technique that should really predominate. And I do, you know, have the good fortune of being able to go train other spine surgeons on how to do this and adopt this technique, which I really enjoy teaching the other spine surgeons how to do it because hopefully it will become the dominant technique and it's not just a single or specialty practice.

Interviewer: It sounds like this procedure has been getting more and more popular over the last two decades, and you sound confident that it could be the next standard practice for a procedure like this. What is it that you see in this particular type of procedures and what are some of the pros and cons of it that make you think that this is going to be the way that surgery is going to be going?

Dr. Mahan: I really like the fact that it has minimal tissue trauma, which means that it has quicker recoveries. So when you ask about the pros and cons, the certain positive that I particularly love and I particularly enjoy about the surgery is that it provides rapid recovery for my patients. That the next day when I talk to my patients or find out how they're doing, they're describing that they're already back to more activities oftentimes than they were before surgery, which is relatively rare.

When we think about surgery, where most people are like, "Yeah, I've got a down period," and I don't have patients coming back to me with like down periods. They're like, "I'm out walking." I hear reports over and over again. They're like, "I am walking now more like the day after surgery than I was in like the several months leading up to surgery." It is that dramatic as far as differences in outcomes. So that's the most certain person and positive note.

Now, some of the other positives I particularly like, again, its lower blood loss. It has a substantially lower risk of infection. There's a substantially lower risk of a specific complication that occurs in spine surgery and that's spinal fluid in leaks or thecal sac injuries. And that's unique to the endoscopic technique is again, we're using sealing to put a little bit of pressure and create space and so the thecal sac is moved away and so you have less risk of that specific complication.

There are downsides, right? I tell all my patients almost repeatedly, you know, if it's powerful enough to help, it's powerful enough to harm. There are cases where people have injured, you know, individuals with using minimally invasive techniques. Endoscopic spine surgery is no stranger to that.

I would certainly say that I think, in my hands, the complication rate is lower, but it's not it's a freebie. It's not like there are no risks. Secondarily and I think the most of the negatives really accrue to the surgeon. You imagine like if you had to do the same work, let's say it's painting a wall, and you were given the choice of a big paintbrush or a tiny paintbrush, which do you think would lead to be faster endpoint?

Interviewer: It's the big brush, right?

Dr. Mahan: The big brush. It's the big brush. The big brush is going to do something quicker. And so, if you force the surgeon to do the same procedure with tinier tools, it's going to take longer. And the way that the insurance in the United States reimburses surgeons, it's on sort of work product. And so again, they pay you to paint the wall. If you can paint the wall faster, then it can be a choice.

Interviewer: What are the success rates like on a procedure like this?

Dr. Mahan: The success rate on anything in life really kind of depends on what your probabilities of success are. So if I take somebody who has relatively straightforward problem and has a very focal problem that's apparent on MRI and is clear on their physical exam and their description of their symptoms, we're going to have a good success rate whether it's an open technique or an endoscopic procedure.

If it's something that's a little bit more challenging, somebody has multiple problems, multiple medical issues, other interdependencies, you know, things that are going on in their lives that are either participating or motivating the pain, then we're going to be less successful. But so for that, let's take the good situation which is for most people where they are.

This is, you know, somebody who has singular problems, relatively identifiable things that could fix their problem, and they're going to have an 80% to 90% success rate with a surgical treatment and it's going to be durable. We want to do a simple procedure that doesn't necessarily create problems that need treatment later.

There are some spine procedures out there that cause further problems down the road. This is one of the ones that leaves a person essentially with more or less their native anatomy, their normal anatomy. And so the goal there is that the only thing that contributes to future problems is really, you know, the nature of time and body's ability to resist time but not the surgery itself.

Interviewer: Say that a patient has now received their diagnosis, they know they have one of these spine issues like we've talked about earlier. What is their first step? Say they're listening to this right now and they're intrigued about this procedure, what is their very first step to get more information and maybe even meeting up with someone like you or another trained professional?

Dr. Mahan: One of the things that we want oftentimes in medical practice, and this applies to a lot of things, is that we want somebody to ideally for somebody to come to me or to come to one of another trained practitioners. If they've had a degree of workup, meaning that they've been evaluated, they've been seen by somebody, and that the process has already been started.

For example, a classic thing is that sometimes you have back pain that can be treated with physical therapy, some exercises, some stretching, maybe some modest medications, right? We're talking about like anti-inflammatories and other things that can get you back to recovery that you don't need surgery for. And so both insurance and the surgeons really want to have that evaluated ahead of time so that when you're coming to somebody, it's meaningful. It's a meaningful use of the patient's time. That you're not coming to see somebody who's going to talk about surgery when you don't need it.

And so it's not a waste of the patient's time. It's not a waste of, you know, of resources or other things. So an initial evaluation, maybe some time with the physical therapist, trial of medications. And then if those aren't working and the MRI, which is a critical component of all of our evaluations, because that's where we can come back to saying is an anatomical surgery going to fix your problem.

And so we need a view of that anatomy, and fortunately, MRIs just do such a beautiful job of doing that is that. If an MRI shows that there's a problem, then clearly there's something that we may be able to intervene on and achieve a good outcome.

Interviewer: Wow. So it sounds like it's a kind of newer procedure and you've got to find the right doctor to do it, the right surgeon and you got to make sure that you have done your homework, gotten your imaging and your workups and everything but maybe they're curious about this type of procedure and treatment, where is somewhere where they can get more information?

Dr. Mahan: Well, one place to start would be the University of Utah website. We have a lot of wonderful information there that can give you the breadth because no patient has the same and what no problem is the same either. So there's oftentimes very distinct treatments that endoscopic spine surgery may not be for you. I would love to think that it is, but at the same time, realistically, there are plenty of things that may need to be done and it may not be endoscopic spine surgery and so that's a great resource to go to.

Announcer: Health hacks with Dr. Troy Madsen on The Scope.

Interviewer: What is today's health hack?

Dr. Madsen: Today's health hack is yoga for chronic low back pain. So here we're talking about people who have had lots of issues, who may have been prescribed even opioids for pain, who have looked into surgery. This was a study in "Annals of Internal Medicine," a few months ago, that looked at patients with this type of pain, chronic low back pain. They placed these patients in yoga classes. Other patients, they placed in physical therapy. Other patients, they just gave some education to, some information. Those who were in yoga did just as well as those in physical therapy. They used fewer pain medications, and even a year later, they saw these same results. They were still doing well.

So I think the big take-home for me from this was if yoga works for you, do yoga. If you're having issues accessing physical therapy, because of insurance issues potentially, consider yoga. Or if you're doing physical therapy, talk to your physical therapist potentially about even supplementing that with some yoga classes. It can make a big difference in the long run for a chronic issue that can cause all sorts of problems.

Announcer: For more health hacks, check out thescoperadio.com, produced by University of Utah Health.

Interviewer: Personalizing treatments for chronic back pain. We'll talk about that next on The Scope.

Announcer: Examining the latest research and telling you about the latest breakthroughs. The Science and Research Show is on The Scope.

Interviewer: I'm talking about chronic back pain with Dr. Julie Fritz, Associate Dean for Research at the University of Utah College of Health. Back pain seems to be categorically different than other types of pain. Can you talk about that a little bit? How is it different and why is it different?

Dr. Fritz: Well, there's a couple things that distinguish back pain perhaps from other pain conditions. One is it's an almost universal human experience. Just about everyone has dealt with some level of back pain, ranging from slightly annoying to completely disabling. So there's a shared experience in it that makes it different than a lot of more rare or less common pain conditions.

The other thing about back pain that really makes it challenging is, in the vast majority of circumstances, we don't have a really good idea of what the cause actually is, what tissues involved, where the pain actually originates from.

So, you know, there's a lot of different structures and tissues in the back, and pinpointing what is causing the pain has proved extremely elusive. And without that, it's a challenge to direct treatment in a way that's going to be effective. And that really makes it somewhat different than a lot of other conditions.

Interviewer: Well, yeah, exactly. I have a friend who's gone through surgery, and yoga, and cortisone shots, and any long list of treatments. And she's basically back in the same position she was a couple of years ago in terms of the severity of the pain. And I mean, would you say that a lot of the treatments that are out there today just aren't effective?

Dr. Fritz: There's certainly a lot of treatments that we should just flat-out stop doing and that really are ineffective, even harmful for patients. And the other reality of treatments that exist for back pain is a number of the treatments, some of which you mentioned, are modestly effective for some people. And the real challenge is figuring out what may work for whom, and there's no magic bullet that works for every patient all the time.

So it's another part of the challenge and the frustration for both patients and providers is there's a lot of individualization that needs to go into treatment, but it's very difficult to figure out what you're likely to respond to and what the next patient may respond to, which may be completely different.

Interviewer: And it sounds like this is kind of the motivation for some of your research. Tell me about what you're looking at now.

Dr. Fritz: Yeah, absolutely. So we have this situation of a number of treatments that have small effects across large groups of patients. And the fundamental challenge that we've tried to address is how to better match treatments to patients, which sounds like a fairly straightforward question, and in some ways it is, but it's proven very difficult with back pain for some of the reasons that we've discussed.

So we try to look at various patient characteristics that might help us decide who's likely to respond to what kind of treatment. And what we found, and many other researchers is that, a lot of those factors that seem at least somewhat predictive are not really specifically related to the pain or the physical injury of the back, but often are related to patients' cognitive and emotional responses to pain, how they tend to cope with pain, what their mindset is relative to pain. And this introduces another level of complexity and trying to figure out the best treatments.

Interviewer: So the idea is that, some people just might be more receptive to getting better and other people are . . .

Dr. Fritz: Well, yeah. I mean, I think we'd say it a little bit differently that whenever any of us experience pain, there's a physical response, and there's a cognitive emotional response to the experience of pain. And that involves our relationship to other people, various other stressors in our life. And all of these things can be positive factors towards resiliency in dealing with pain, or they can tend to lead towards more disablement and more suffering relative to having pain.

It's not a situation where we're talking about pain that's of psychological origin, but of a recognition that all of us have a response when we experience pain that encompasses these domains in our life that get outside of the physical.

Interviewer: As I understand it you'll be looking at different types of therapies including things like mindfulness, which maybe it's something the medical community doesn't routinely turn to when they think about treating pain.

Dr. Fritz: Yeah. Pain conditions like back pain are an area where various integrative medicine approaches, what we've in the past called complementary and alternative approaches, may have a really important role. So in the specific instance of back pain as you highlighted with your example, finding a cure is often challenging.

And many people are left to manage their life with some level of intermittent back pain. And strategies like:

• yoga,
• mindfulness,
• meditation,
• other stress-reduction strategies,

can be really helpful for the self-management of back pain to help people deal with flare-ups that inevitably come, or the experience of pain without having to use physician visits, visit the emergency room, take medication, etc.

Interviewer: And so it's not necessarily about sort of solving the problem or curing the problem, but coping with it.

Dr. Fritz: It is for a lot of patients. We certainly, as providers, seek to cure the problem, to get it to go away and not come back. The reality of back pain is that's often an elusive goal. And as providers, we also have to help give patients strategies to better manage their condition given that we know it frequently tends to recur. That's really what we're all trying to do is help people recover, help people live their lives, and do what they want to do despite the experience of back pain.

Announcer: Discover how the research of today will affect you tomorrow. The Science and Research show is on The Scope.

updated: January 30, 2019
originally published: December 12, 2017

Dr. Miller: Thin bones and the risk of fracture and what to do about that. We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Health tips, medical news, research, and more for a happier, healthier life. From University of Utah Health Sciences, this is The Scope.

Dr. Miller: I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Nick Spina, and he's an orthopedic surgeon here at the University of Utah, in the Department of Orthopedics. He's an expert in spine care. Nick, how do you get a fracture when you have thin bones or osteoporosis? What happens? Where do they occur typically in the back? Tell me about that. It's a lot at risk.

Dr. Spina: Yeah. Osteoporotic compression fractures or what we call fragility fractures are probably the most common fracture we see in spine surgery. It tends to be on the more elderly side of the population.

Dr. Miller: At the time when we lose our bone mass.

Dr. Spina: Exactly, at the time when we lose our bone mass. So I'd like to describe them to people to imagine a soda can or a pop can. And each patient's vertebral body is like a pop can. So it has a hard rim on the top and a hard rim on the bottom, and the center part of the can is relatively empty. As we age and we get osteoporosis, the center of the can becomes even more empty. And so, as we stress the top, the can eventually cracks and crushes where our end plates become closer together or the ends of the can become closer together.

Dr. Miller: And so, what happens to precipitate that fracture? My understanding is they could just happen spontaneously if your bone density is so low.

Dr. Spina: Right. Depending on the degree of your osteoporosis or the degree of the strength of your bone, it can happen with just minimal activities such as waking up from sleep, standing, walking. They are commonly precipitated from falls, so patients often come in after a fall from standing or a fall during gardening, or routine activity around the house where they develop an acute onset of back pain.

Dr. Miller: Or one of the favorites from my patients would be shoveling snow.

Dr. Spina: Exactly. It seems no one should shovel snow anymore. That's pretty much a general rule.

Dr. Miller: So what happens? Do they have pain typically after that?

Dr. Spina: So the most common presenting symptom is acute back pain. Some of the worst pain you've had in the center of your back. It tends to be localized to the midline or right in the middle. Our muscles also become very inflamed, so it can radiate out towards our rib cage. It tends to be in the mid portion of the back. For women, right around their bra strap, and for men, kind of in-between the shoulder blades.

Dr. Miller: Now, you would find more osteoporotic fractures in women, I would think, right?

Dr. Spina: It does.

Dr. Miller: Osteoporosis is more common in women.

Dr. Spina: It's more common in women. So we do tend to see more osteoporotic fractures in elderly women versus men.

Dr. Miller: So, aside from analgesics, pain killers, that type of thing, what can you do to alleviate the pain or help with the pain?

Dr. Spina: So we sort of take a two-tier approach. One is a reduction in activities and modification of daily living, to avoid those activities such as heavy lifting, bending over at the waist, stressing the spine by bending forward or twisting. And the second would be we occasionally use a brace to provide an external support, kind of external crutch you can think of to keep the spine upright or support it while a bone tends to heal in that compressed manner.

Dr. Miller: What's this brace look like? Is it corset?

Dr. Spina: Yes. It tends to be a corset. It kind of looks like a turtle shell, hard in the front and hard in the back, and it wraps around your torso.

Dr. Miller: And usually, how long would a person have to wear that for that to work?

Dr. Spina: We tend to use them for about two months. And then, we tend to wean out of it because as we put people in braces, their muscles, obviously, become weaker. And having good muscular strength is one of the ways we compensate for having fractures. And so we don't cut them cold turkey. We often ask people to slowly come out of them and wear them when they're upright or up for long periods of time, and then remove them when they're sleeping or sitting.

Dr. Miller: Now, tell me a little bit about what's call kyphoplasty. I understand there's a little bit of controversy about the use of this technique and has been for a number of years.

Dr. Spina: So kyphoplasty and vertebroplasty were very common about 10 to 15 years ago. They sort of exploded in the world of spine surgery. And the procedure itself is directed at restoring the height of that pop can. So what we do is . . .

Dr. Miller: So this maintains height in the patient. So the concept, I guess, was if you increase the height of the crushed pop can, then the person wouldn't lose height.

Dr. Spina: Exactly. And so we insert a probe from the back of the spine into the front, the vertebral body. And there are two different means. One, we use a balloon to try to restore the height of the body. And the second is we just inject a material to try to restore the height. And the bottom line is that we take the empty space in the vertebral body, that space that's crushed down, and we try to stabilize it and if not, restore it by putting cement in the front of the vertebral body.

Dr. Miller: So what is the controversy surrounding this technique?

Dr. Spina: So there have been a couple large studies that have been done, that have looked at patients who have not had vertebroplasty or kyphoplasty and who have, and they haven't shown much of a difference as far as long term outcomes. So, in my practice, we tend to reserve them for those patients with intractable pain after about six weeks of non-operative care.

Dr. Miller: So they have some role in alleviating pain if it's not treated with the standard sort of non-interventional means that you just spoke about a few minutes ago?

Dr. Spina: Exactly. In those patients out of refractory which are very, very few in my practice, tend to see a little bit of benefit from doing a kyphoplasty. But again, we tend to reserve that to those people that fail all the non-operative means which we start with in the beginning.

Dr. Miller: The other point would be that if a patient has osteoporosis, they should also be treated for that with one of the newer medications. I should say newer. The medications have been around now for 10 years, and there's new medicines coming out all the time.

Dr. Spina: Exactly. One of the biggest risk factors for vertebral body compression fracture or fragility fracture is having a previous fracture. So it's our routine practice when we identify these patients to make sure that they have a pipeline of care through either us as treating providers or their primary care physicians to check their bone quality through a DEXA scan and address the degree of osteoporosis that they have.

Dr. Miller: Screening becomes very important in this age group, especially women over 65 years of age.

Dr. Spina: Exactly. Screening is probably the best form of prevention for these fractures that we have.

Announcer: Want The Scope delivered straight to your inbox? Enter your email address at thescoperadio.com and click "Sign Me Up" for updates of our latest episodes. The Scope Radio is a production of University of Utah Health Sciences.

Announcer: Is it bad enough to go to the emergency room? Or isn't it? You're listening to ER or Not on The Scope.

Interviewer: All right. Today's ER or Not, back pain. Should you go to the emergency room for back pain? Dr. Troy Madsen from University of Utah Health ER or Not.

Dr. Madsen: So this is going to come down to a few things, and these are basically a few things that you should go to the ER for. Number one, did your back pain start because you were directly injured on your back? That's something you should go to the ER for because you very well could have a spinal injury. That's a very serious thing.

Number two, are you having symptoms like, losing control of your bladder or your bowels? Maybe you didn't have a direct injury to the back, maybe you're just having pain in your lower back and you cannot get to the bathroom quickly enough, you just can't hold it, you're urinating on yourself or you try to go to the bathroom and you really can't urinate. That is something that also you need to go to the ER for.

So that's second thing, the first thing's probably kind of obvious, you figure, "Okay, if I've been injured, let's say I fell or something hit me on the back, I'm having pain right on my spine, probably need to get some X-rays or a CT scan," but the second thing it's kind of an unusual thing but something I always think about, It's a term, it's something medical condition called cauda equina, and what that means is cauda equina's Latin for the horse's tail.

So if you look at the spine it's just kind of a cord that goes down and then at the end of the spine it all spreads out and looks like a horse's tail. This is where all these nerves take off and spread out there. So down there at the bottom part of the spine, the low back, if you get a disc that's pushing in or something that's pushing in on the spine, that's a surgical emergency. You need to go to the operating room and get that repaired and treated and the typical symptoms that people have with that are low back pain, and then they say, "I cannot hold it, I can't get to the bathroom quickly enough," or, "When I try to go to the bathroom I just can't urinate, I feel like I have to go and nothing comes out."

In my mind, that really raises concern for that, and the way I diagnose that is an MRI. And that's something you would need in the ER. So those are the two things that would say go to the ER for.

There are lots of other types of back pain, maybe you've lifted something, you've got a back strain or a sprain, maybe you've got a herniated disc. We do see lots of people with chronic back pain where it flares up. These are all things that could probably be treated through your primary care doctor or even through an urgent care. But in terms of the things that are really serious, those are the things I recommend watching for.

Announcer: Have a question about a medical procedure? Want to learn more about a health condition? With over 2,000 interviews with our physicians and specialists, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll find what you want to know. Check it out at TheScopeRadio.com.

updated: May 11, 2018
originally published: August 12, 2016

Dr. Miller: Spinal stenosis. Do you have that, and what do you about it if you do have it? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: Hi, I'm here with Dr. Darrel Brodke and I'm Dr. Tom Miller, and Darrel is a professor of orthopedic surgery at the University of Utah. Darrel, what is spinal stenosis?

Dr. Brodke: Well, spinal stenosis, Tom, is a narrowing of the spinal canal. The spinal canal is where the nerve roots coming off of the spinal cord come down through the remainder of your spine and then out to form nerves that go down your leg. This can also happen in the cervical spine, by the way, or the neck, but classically it's in the lumbar spine. So spinal stenosis is a narrowing in the space, like a pipe that had sediment built up so that the space is now so narrow that it's compressing the nerves.

Dr. Miller: So the spinal cord, the main nerve, is compressed. Now does this happen because of trauma, does it happen in younger patients or older folks? What causes it?

Dr: Brodke: Spinal stenosis is largely a disease of older folks, although we can see congenital stenosis in younger folks. Classically it would be an older person who started having problems with pain radiating from their buttocks down their legs, particularly when they walk.

Dr. Miller: And does it come on suddenly? What kind of a pain is it? Is it burning, is it sharp, is it lancinating? I mean, is there a type of pain that one typically experiences when they have spinal stenosis?

Dr. Brodke: Sure. So the pain, it can vary in nature from person to person, but it's common, most commonly, a pain that feels like pressure or a pain that feels fairly sharp and searing down the legs. It can also take the form of fatigue in the legs rather than actually frank pain and it commonly limits the distance that a person can walk or a time that they can stand.

Dr. Miller: So when they stop walking the pain gets better, then they start walking again and it recurs.

Dr. Brodke: Often they have to sit down or bend over for the pain to actually get better because that posture of flexion allows for increased space for the nerves and therefore better blood flow, better nutrients, and the nerves start feeling better. As soon as they stand up again, they start getting that compression of the nerves and then after a short period of time the nerves start responding by hurting.

Dr. Miller: Darrel, is there a particular place in the spine that is more common to see spinal stenosis?

Dr. Brodke: Yeah, most commonly we see spinal stenosis in the lumbar spine, that is the low back, and therefore it most commonly affects the buttocks and legs. We can see spinal stenosis in the cervical spine as well where it's actually pressing on the spinal cord causing problems with balance or stability or fine motor dexterity in the hands, but most commonly we see it in the low back.

Dr. Miller: How does one treat this? Are there conservative ways to treat it? Do you go to surgery?

Dr. Brodke: So we will often try to treat spinal stenosis, particularly in the lumbar spine, conservatively first. That means physical therapy, anti-inflammatory medications, changing . . .

Dr. Miller: Things like ibuprofen, Motrin?

Dr. Brodke: Exactly. We'll also have them change the way they do activities. In physical therapy we do exercises, for example, bent over inflexion because that opens the space for the nerves. So it's a specific kind of physical therapy.

Dr. Miller: So the conservative therapy is something that you would prescribe for a patient. They would generally go to a physical therapist who would then carry out the type of exercise and treatment that you had recommended?

Dr. Brodke: Yes.

Dr. Miller: Now how often is that effective?

Dr. Brodke: That's effective quite a fair amount of time. It's hard for me to estimate but I can quote you statistics from the literature in which maybe half the patients really feel like that was very effective, another third of patients feel like it was somewhat effective, and then there are a fair number of patients where that didn't work at all and we end up talking about surgery.

Dr. Miller: And what percentage of patients would maybe need to go on to surgery, and if that is the case, tell me a little bit about that.

Dr. Brodke: That's a number that's a little hard to get to because the total number of patients with spinal stenosis is not well identified, but if we look at studies in which only spinal stenosis patients are enrolled and we look at operative and non-operative treatment options, somewhat under half of the patients end up in surgery, and those patients that end up in surgery do extremely well. In fact, they do better than the non-operative patients do.

Dr. Miller: So what's important is to go to someone who is a particular specialist in spine surgery so that they could actually select the patient for surgical procedure after having gone through rather conservative therapy.

Dr. Brodke: Exactly. We'll often try conservative therapy whether you're seeing the surgeon first, or your primary care physician, or a physiatrist. All of those types of physicians are certainly well-capable of prescribing the physical therapy and anti-inflammatory medications, ibuprofen for example, that are the beginning of treatment for spinal stenosis. But as the disease progresses and for those patients that that actually doesn't work on, the next step would be to see a surgeon whose specialty is treatment of lumbar spinal disease.

Dr. Miller: So for our listeners, if you're having burning pain radiating down from your buttocks down the sides of your legs that causes you to stop, you rest, it goes away, it starts again when you walk any distance, it's relieved when you're bending forward, you might have spinal stenosis. You'd probably see your primary care provider who can then refer you on to a spine specialist who might start with conservative therapy, likely would start with conservative therapy and that would generally do the trick in a number of patients, and if not, they would best advise you on what the next steps are and that might include surgery.

Announcer: TheScopeRadio.com is University of Utah Health Sciences Radio. If you like what you heard, be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at TheScopeRadio.com.

Interviewer: Three symptoms that don't seem serious but could be. We'll talk about that next on The Scope.

Announcer: This is, From the Front Lines with emergency room physician Dr. Troy Madsen, on The Scope.

Interviewer: Dr. Troy Madsen's an emergency room physician at University of Utah Health Care. Today, three symptoms that don't seem serious but could be. We're talking about signs that you might have a serious medical condition that a lot of people ignore because we're kind of numb to these things.

What are the big three? Let's start with number three. In no particular order, or is this in order?

Dr. Madsen: This is in no particular order at all.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: Just the three things I thought of as we talked about this that people often don't take very seriously but when they come in sometimes we can find serious things going on.

First one on the list is headaches. And when we're talking about headaches, I think a lot of us are used to headaches. We work, we get tension headaches, sometimes we just don't feel quite right, a little nauseated. But I oftentimes find that people with headaches just feel like "I've just got to tough it out," just get through it and it will go away.

Interviewer: Right, it's a headache, everybody gets them.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. And, sometimes headaches are a sign of something very serious going on. A lot of times, the red flags with headaches are, headaches that come on very suddenly, very severe, maybe make you feel more nauseated then maybe you've been with previous headaches, certainly if you're passing out because of headaches. Another interesting thing with headaches that's more serious is if it wakes you up in the morning, like you get a headache and you wake up and this headache is the thing that woke you up.

Interviewer: Okay.

Dr. Madsen: And that's often a sign of something going on in the brain, maybe a brain tumor or something like that that can be a more serious thing. So a reason to, certainly if it's a sudden onset severe headache, get to the ER, if it's a headache that's waking you up in the morning, something to talk to your doctor about, they may want you to come to the ER or get some sort of imaging of your brain to see what's going on there.

Interviewer: And it might not be a bad idea if you just kind of always have headaches to talk to your doctor about it because that's not a fun way to live.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, you're exactly right. We do see cases like that, too, of people who come in the ER who say "I just get migraines all the time" and they could be on medication to prevent that, to prevent that ER visit and make their life much more comfortable.

Interviewer: All right, number two on three things that don't seem serious but could be.

Dr. Madsen: Yeah, so number two is back pain. And back pain is another one of these things you figure "Tough it out, I get pain in my back, maybe I was doing some lifting, something like that." But one of the really, really serious things with back pain is an aortic aneurysm, or a tear in the aorta. And classically with that, people will have pain that starts in their chest and goes though to their back and it's like a tearing pain, maybe it's down in their abdomen and they feel some pain in their back as well with that.

Interviewer: So upper or lower back it sounds like.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: Doesn't have to be just back from where the heart is.

Dr. Madsen: No it doesn't.

Interviewer: Even though it's a heart thing you're describing.

Dr. Madsen: Well it's related to the heart. The aorta is the main vessel that delivers blood from the heart to the body. So yeah, it is related to the heart. The heart is squeezing blood through there, so people sometimes just have just severe back pain with an aortic aneurysm or a tear in the aorta and that's something that's extremely serious, you've got to get to the ER, get that checked out. And typically with that, they just have sudden onset severe pain. That's how they describe it. Just a sudden onset pain feels like a tearing or a ripping sort of pain.

You know with back pain as well, you can have issues like cancer, tumors in the spine, things there that will cause you pain that's often more severe when you're lying down or certain positions. It's a little more rare, but that would be something to see your doctor about. They could get an x-ray of your back, sometimes they'll get an MRI to take a look there and see what's going on.

Interviewer: So if it's something you've lived with for a while, there again, go see a physician because why should you live with that. If it's something that comes on very suddenly, for no real apparent reason, that's the trip to the ER time.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly.

Interviewer: All right. Number one on the list of three symptoms that don't seem serious but could be.

Dr. Madsen: And number one is abdominal pain. And we see lots and lots and lots of people with abdominal pain, and we see lots of people with abdominal pain who don't have anything wrong. But then we see people with abdominal pain who come in and say "I've had this pain in the right lower side of my abdomen for five days now. I just figured it was gas and it would go away." We get a CT scan and they have a ruptured appendicitis. And that's just not good.

So there are things in the abdomen that can go very wrong, and it generally happens over time. Typically in the abdomen, it's not something that's going to happen all of the sudden, but if you're having abdominal pain and it's not going away after a few hours, it's progressing, especially on the right side of your abdomen. If you're a typical young, healthy person, the right lower side is your appendix, the right upper side is your gall bladder.

Those are the most common things I see in young healthy people who are just like "I've had abdominal pain before. This will go away." They come in, they have a ruptured appendicitis, or they have a very serious case of cholecystitis, which is an infection of the gall bladder, and they have to go to the operating room to get these things repaired, which they would otherwise but often it's a much more complex case because the infection there is so advanced.

Interviewer: So it sounds like the first two, sudden symptoms. The third one, symptoms that have lasted for a while.

Dr. Madsen: Exactly. Things that came on more gradually and then progressed but people just keep thinking "This will go away" and it's not going away.

Interviewer: That's for the abdominal pain. How many days, if I kind of have a consistent abdominal thing going on, what should my line be, where I'm like "I better go see somebody"? Five days? Is that it, or sooner than that?

Dr. Madsen: I would do sooner than that. With the appendix, with the gallbladder, most things if you got a little bit of food poisoning or some gas in your stomach it's going to get better within six hours. If it's going on beyond that, if you're getting more toward 12 hours with this sort of thing, that's definitely I think a reason to at least see your doctor about it.

Interviewer: And I think it's also interesting too because I know a lot of people from some previous podcasts talk about very sudden abdominal pain like waking up in the middle of the night, sudden abdominal pain. From what you just told me, that doesn't sound like necessarily the thing to worry about. It's if it continues over time.

Dr. Madsen: Well, and again it becomes challenging because I mention that thing to you about the aortic aneurysm, like the back pain, that's also in the stomach that is a sudden thing, so it comes a little bit more challenging.

Interviewer: How do I know if something happens suddenly if I should be concerned? I mean, how do I parse this out?

Dr. Madsen: I think you have to base it on the severity of the pain, how it compares to your previous pain. But these are things where people kind of ease into it, it's like "Oh this isn't so bad. I've got a little pain in the right side of my abdomen. I'm used to having a little bit of abdominal pain." But then they gradually get worse and worse. Maybe some of these other serious things in the abdomen, they come on suddenly, and they're severe.

And so, you base it on the severity, and then those things that aren't so severe, you base it on well, what's it been doing over time, has it just been gradually getting worse, that's a sign often of something more serious.

Interviewer: TheScopeRadio.com is University of Utah Health Sciences Radio. If you like what you heard, be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at TheScopeRadio.com.

Dr. Miller: Sciatica. What is it? What do you do about it? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Ryan Spiker. He's an orthopedic surgeon and a spine specialist, and we're going to talk a little bit about sciatica. What is sciatica? What does that mean, Ryan?

Dr. Spiker: Sciatica is a pain that originates in the back but shoots down the legs, often just one of the two legs, often down the back of the leg and can go all the way to the foot.

Dr. Miller: What does that feel like? Is it a dull pain, shooting, electric . . . I mean, what would a person feel if they had sciatica?

Dr. Spiker: For most people it's kind of an electrical type sensation, a sharp pain that kind of shoots down the leg in a pretty clear distinct path that connects from the back all the way down into the leg.

Dr. Miller: Who gets sciatica? Would it only be somebody that has a traumatic injury or can it just happen?

Dr. Spiker: Sciatica is most common from degenerative conditions which are nontraumatic conditions where people are out working in the yard doing their normal activities and suddenly will feel this sharp pain. It can come from a disk herniation.

Dr. Miller: What's that? What is a disk herniation? We always hear about disk herniation, but what really is that?

Dr. Spiker: Yeah, that's a great question. So disk herniations are very common and fortunately they usually don't pinch nerves, but when they do, when a disk herniates from its normal position and pushes toward the nerve, it can cause nerve pain and that nerve pain can be described as sciatica.

Dr. Miller: So the disk is, it seems to me, to be kind of a shock absorber between the bones or vertebrae in the spine. Is that what that is?

Dr. Spiker: Correct, so the disk is between the two bones in the spine in each segment, and so our spine is full of different bones with discs in between and if that disk has damage to it, which can be traumatic but most likely is degenerative and most commonly seen in patients as they get older, they can start to rupture and have some of the material from inside the disk push out.

Dr. Miller: How do you describe the nerves traveling out of the spine? Do they travel out between the disks and the bones? What does that look like?

Dr. Spiker: Yes, between the bones are the disks and then between each level there's a nerve that will exit, so between each level of the spine there's a unique nerve that will exit and that nerve can be pinched from the disk.

Dr. Miller: Are there certain levels of the spine that are more susceptible to sciatica, or not sciatica but disk herniation that would cause a compression of the nerve?

Dr. Spiker: Yes, the lower spine, the lumbar spine is by far the most common, and even within the lumbar spine it's usually the bottom, the lowest part of the spine, in the L4, L5, S1, the very bottom part of the spine is the most common area, and that leads to compression of the nerve roots which shoot down the back of the leg and that's where we most commonly hear the symptoms of sciatica being, shooting down the back leg.

Dr. Miller: You mentioned that this is due to a degenerative condition so would we more likely see sciatica in someone who is older or younger, or what?

Dr. Spiker: It depends on the cause. With disk herniation sometimes we do see that in younger patients, even in their 20s, 30s, 40s. Other causes where arthritis or kind of slow processes are causing nerve compression, we see that in older patients or what we think of as lumbar spinal stenosis which is kind of more generic stenosis than just from a disk, and we'll see that in older patients. We see the symptoms of sciatica in all age ranges but different causes.

Dr. Miller: Sciatica is usually described as a pain, but can there be weakness associated with it?

Dr. Spiker: Absolutely, and that's something that is often missed by patients. When they initially describe their symptoms they'll have weakness in their leg without significant pain and it's unclear why, and it can come from nerve compression either in the lumbar spine or elsewhere.

Dr. Miller: So let's say a patient is out shoveling snow and all of a sudden they have this pain radiating down the side of their leg. It's pretty intense. What should they do?

Dr. Spiker: So first things first, taking a little bit of rest for a few days and if the symptoms aren't severe often they'll improve on their own. If it's persistent, getting worse day to day or associated with severe weakness or changes in their bowel or bladder function then they need to see someone immediately there in the emergency room or in clinic to get x-rays and get evaluated to see if there is significant nerve damage.

Dr. Miller: When you say rest, you mean they should just get in bed and lie in bed for a few days?

Dr. Spiker: Not necessarily lying in bed. As long as they're able we encourage people to be up and walking and moving as early as possible, but minimizing lifting, twisting, bending. The physical function is a little bit less aggressive in those first few days.

Dr. Miller: I think going to bed and just lying down used to be the old treatment, and it was found that people got pretty weak over time pretty quickly if they did that, so it got to the point of stay as active as you can as much as you can tolerate the discomfort.

Dr. Spiker: Absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Miller: So should patients take any kind of medication for sciatica while they're waiting for it to naturally heal?

Dr. Spiker: If they can tolerate anti-inflammatories, it doesn't have any contraindications with their other diagnoses or medications, it's a great first-line treatment to calm down the inflammation and often helps with the symptoms and allows them to be functional, allow them to walk and move and heal on their own. There are other medications but that's probably the first step, and then getting into physical therapy as soon as possible to really get as much as we can out of our own bodies before we move on to more aggressive treatments.

Dr. Miller: More aggressive treatments would be . . .

Dr. Spiker: It includes injections, a steroid injection can help calm some of that inflammation, and in rare cases sometimes people do need surgery.

Dr. Miller: How many people who have sciatica eventually go on to surgery? It's not that many.

Dr. Spiker: Correct, it's a small percentage and it's hard to know because so much sciatica resolves before people even come to a physician, but even in people who come to see a spine surgeon like myself, it's by far the minority who end up needing spine surgery

Dr. Miller: That's really good news. So I think the bottom line for the listeners would be that if you have sciatica, it suddenly develops, to plan on waiting it out for a week or two because things generally progressively improve and to use nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen, Naprosyn or aspirin to treat it, and then if it's not getting better to seek care from your primary care physician or perhaps even a physiatrist. Would that be right?

Dr. Spiker: Absolutely.

Announcer: Have a question about a medical procedure? Want to learn more about a health condition? With over 2,000 interviews with our physicians and specialists, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll find what you want to know. Check it out at TheScopeRadio.com.

updated: March 12, 2019
originally published: June 21, 2016

Dr. Miller: Is it time to see a spine surgeon for your back and neck pain? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists, with Dr. Tom Miller, is on The Scope

Dr. Miller: Hi, I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I am here with Dr. Erica Bisson and she is a neurosurgeon in the Department of Neurosurgery here at the University of Utah. Erica, tell me a little bit about when it might be the right time for a person with neck or back pain to see a spine surgeon?

Dr. Bisson: What I tell most of my patients is that getting neck or back pain is a very common entity. A lot of people go out and do a lot of yard work or do excessive sporting activities wake up the next morning and feel like they have, what's considered a 'crick in the neck' or have a low backache.

Again, most of that is muscular in nature. It can be muscle spasm or some inflammation. Most of that is treated with what we consider conservative measures. This means things like anti-inflammatory, some Motrin, some Aleve, exercise or rest. Everybody is a little bit different which is better. We tend to tell people not to do strict bed rest because that's counterproductive in getting the muscles to move. Then also you can do things like heat and ice, which also help.

Dr. Miller: Now, what percent of patients actually get better with those conservative treatments?

Dr. Bisson: I would tell you about 90-plus percent patients get better with just those things alone.

Dr. Miller: In a week? Two weeks? A month?

Dr. Bisson: Most patients get better within a few days, but it's not unreasonable to think that it may take up to two to four weeks to see improvement with those conservative things.

Dr. Miller: So I would think that many of these patients would be best served by seeing their primary care physician or someone like a physical therapist who could help them work through some of the pain issues.

Dr. Bisson: Absolutely. In fact, that's what we would recommend is first maybe try some of these things at home on your own and then if it's not getting better go see your primary care because they can often help with some of the advanced treatments, again, not surgical, like physical therapy.

Dr. Miller: So for our listeners, should they also have the time they present with their neck or back pain, a study like an MRI that actually looks at their neck? Or a CT scan? What's your thought on that?

Dr. Bisson: Actually, an MRI, a CT scan and even simple X-rays are not indicated in somebody who simply has neck or back pain that we think is muscular in nature. Now, it's very important that when somebody sees their primary care and talks about these issues, that they be asked questions about any neurologic dysfunction, which we think of as maybe some numbness and tingling in the arms or legs or pain going down the arms and legs, bowel and bladder dysfunction. These are things that we consider red or yellow flags, or reasons that we would want to get imaging studies.

Dr. Miller: So bladder dysfunction would be the inability to urinate, I'm assuming. Is that what you mean?

Dr. Bisson: It is what I mean. We can have also urinary retention, which means you can't empty your bladder properly.

Dr. Miller: That would indicate a fairly serious back problem.

Dr. Bisson: Yes, it would.

Dr. Miller: Of the patients that end up seeing you, what percentage of those patients actually has surgery?

Dr. Bisson: Believe it or not, even as a surgeon, only about 10-15% of the patients that I see in my office go and end up having surgery.

Dr. Miller: So a great take-home message is that much of back pain, neck pain, can be cured with conservative measures. That's what we should focus on.

Dr. Bisson: Absolutely. In fact, I tell my patients even if they come to me with a problem that can be fixed with surgery, I still always try the maximum medical management. Meaning, all of the things I talked about, anti-inflammatories, physical therapy, maybe even some injections because I know that a good deal of those will get better without surgery. Even if I could do surgery, I tell my patients, "I'd rather you take credit for it than me take credit for it."

Dr. Miller: That's perfect. So basically, the majority of people with back and neck pain will get better in time. There are some worrisome signs and symptoms that relate to muscle weakness or numbness. Those folks should be seen rather urgently and imaging is unnecessary unless you have some of those very specific findings.

Dr. Bisson: Absolutely.

Dr. Miller: Thanks very much, Erica.

Announcer: thescoperadio.com is University of Utah's Health Sciences Radio. If you like what you heard, be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at thescoperadio.com

Dr. Miller: CSM. What is that? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.
Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists, with Dr. Tom Miller, is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: I'm Dr. Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Erica Bisson. She's a neurosurgeon and also specializes in spine surgery. What is CSM?

Dr. Bisson: CSM actually stands for Cervical Spondylotic Myelopathy, which is a lot of words, but let me just break it down. What it means is that your spinal cord is being pinched in your neck. When I say pinched, the canal is being narrowed and that causes spinal cord dysfunction. Essentially, the messages that are coming from your brain and going out to your arms and legs aren't getting there in a timely fashion.

Dr. Miller: Now, who gets that?

Dr. Bisson: So the average age for patients who have CSM is in the 50s and 60s. We do see older individuals as well, but this is a degenerative process. This is something that happens as we age.

Dr. Miller: Now, do you go in surgically and open the space around the spinal column in order to create room for it to operate and function?

Dr. Bisson: That's exactly what we do. So when we approach this surgically, our main goal is to give the spinal cord room to move. If you look at an MRI or an image of an individual who has CSM, often you see bone spurs and other abnormalities that are causing the narrowing of the spinal canal so we have to either remove the bone spurs or open up the bone in some way, shape or fashion to enlarge that spinal canal so that the spinal cord itself gets completely surrounded by fluid and has a cushion enabling it to move properly.

Dr. Miller: If a patient has spinal cord dysfunction or CSM as you've called it, what are the symptoms that they might have? How would they know if they have this particular problem?

Dr. Bisson: Well, I'll tell you, the symptoms can be a little bit vague. Having said that, there are specific questions that I tend to ask patients to try to better understand if they're having symptoms from spinal cord dysfunction. Things that we talk about are problems with balance, so patients often have balance difficulty, their walking doesn't feel quite right. The other thing that patients mostly complain of is dropping things or loss of hand strength. They also complain of loss of dexterity. You know, it's funny, some of my patients tell me, "I feel like I'm telling my hands to do something, but they're not just quite doing it." Other patients tell me, "You know, I go to pick up my pen or I go to pick up my change of the counter and it slips out because I'm not quite able to tell what I'm picking up. I'm not feeling or sensing it."

Dr. Miller: Sensation in their fingertips. But isn't that also a problem of aging? Don't we get a little bit of that with aging? How do you tell it apart?

Dr. Bisson: Great question. You absolutely . . . so all those things, balance, loss of hand strength can be a problem with aging. What I'll comment is that I often have people who come in and have an MRI and I'm trying to differentiate them. You know, nationally and internationally, we're trying to find some kind of measure or test where we can say, "Ooh. That's CSM for sure." We don't have that yet. People are inventing all sorts of tests and new techniques to try to understand that, but it's the constellation of symptoms together.

They also, patients, find that they, if you examine them their reflexes are a little brisk. That's something we call Upper Motor Neuron Disease. Or that they're having spinal cord problems so we see this thing called hyperreflexia or abnormal reflexes where their knee jerks or their arm jerks a little bit too much, relative to normal.

Dr. Miller: If you do reparative surgery on these patients, what's the chance of recovery from the symptoms that they have?

Dr. Bisson: Tom, that is a fantastic question. And historically, if you review all the literature, which I have done time and time again on this topic, we have always told patients that the ultimate goal of the surgery is to halt the progression of the disease. The natural history of this disease process is that patients will get worse over time. So when we intervene, we open up that spinal canal and give room with a hope that we stopped them from getting worse, not that we're going to improve . . .

Dr. Miller: . . . what's happened already.

Dr. Bisson: Exactly.

Dr. Miller: But there's a good chance the progression would cease.

Dr. Bisson: Yes, absolutely. And what I will also tell you is anecdotally, after having seen many, many patients through this, over the last many years that I've focused my career around this, I do notice improvement. And I constantly am amazed at the recovery that I see. So while I tell every single patient going into surgery, "My goal is to stop the progression," anecdotally I see improvement. And I see vast improvement, which is so encouraging for me.

Dr. Miller: Now, there are different approaches as I understand, we talked about this a little bit before. I mean do you tell patients that there is a best way to perform the surgery? Is that something that you talked to them about? Or do we even know that?

Dr. Bisson: That's a great question. I would tell you that in some patients there is an optimal way. When we approach the neck for spinal surgery, we can either come in through the front of the neck or from the back of the neck and each has its pluses and minuses. There are some patients that only can have surgery from the front because different issues with their neck, the alignment or how the neck is curved and there are some patients who are most appropriate for the back. The vast majority or a good majority of patients can actually do either way, front or back. That happens to be a question that PCORI, which is the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute set up by the government and through the ACA funded a large study that we here at the University of Utah are participating in, looking at the answer to that exact question.

Dr. Miller: So this may tell us in the end whether one approach or the other, back or front is best?

Dr. Bisson: Absolutely and we're very much looking forward to that.

Announcer: thescoperadio.com in University of Utah Health Sciences radio. If you like what you heard, make sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at thescoperadio.com

Dr. Miller: Medicine may not be the only nor the best treatment for low back pain. We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: Hi, I'm Tom Miller and I'm here with Dr. Rich Kendall. Rich is the Chair of the Physical and Rehabilitative Medicine Department at the University of Utah and we're going to talk about treatment of low back pain with non-medical modalities. Rich, tell us a little bit about physical therapy and how that relates to back pain and how exercise helps people improve their lower back pain. I think it's an area that's underutilized.

Dr. Kendall: Many people with back pain, just exercising on a daily basis will really reduce the intensity of their back pain quite a bit. Many studies have shown that back pain and exercise go well together. It can help with sleep, it can decrease back pain, lessen medication use, and even avoid surgery.

Dr. Miller: Rich, tell me a little about certain exercise modalities or maybe they're called stretching modalities, something like Pilates. I know that a lot of people say that Pilates is good, it improves core strength, but that may also translate into improved back strength and health.

Dr. Kendall: Well, Pilates is a very good exercise, but really there is no evidence that one form of exercise is any better than another form. Core-specific exercises, Pilates, Yoga

Dr. Miller: Yoga.

Dr. Kendall: A gym program where you lift weights. Really all of them can work in decreasing back pain. Now sometimes if an athlete is already doing a very rigorous program, they may need physical therapy with targeted exercises. But, in general, most people just sticking with a generalized exercise program and whatever they like. The key is doing something they like so you'll do it all the time.

Dr. Miller: One of the things that I struggled with is I didn't always have enough training in what physical therapists do. Do you find referring to a physical therapist to be helpful in cases where you're going to prescribe exercise therapy for people with back pain?

Dr. Kendall: I think for most people, starting with a physical therapist is a great idea. They're going to demonstrate the exercises. The therapist will watch that they can do the exercises correctly, that they have good form while doing the exercises, and also be able to look at other associated joints whether there's hip tightness or leg tightness, arm or neck tightness to try to work on some of those adjacent areas as well. But a lot of times, we'll start with a therapy and even then sometimes transfer over to a personal trainer.

Dr. Miller: Do you find that some patients are skeptical of exercises therapy? That they might seek medication instead? And how do you deal with that?

Dr. Kendall: A lot of people certainly are skeptical that exercise will do that. Nobody likes to exercise. Years ago, it was probably one of the hardest things to convince patients of. Now that everybody has to pay $35 or $50 a copay to go see a physical therapist, with two visits to a physical therapist you've paid two months of a gym membership. I can really convince people to exercise a little bit more. But many of the studies actually are showing people with degenerate discs, arthritis of the back, exercise is probably the best thing, even as well or better than surgery.

Dr. Miller: Rich, why is exercise beneficial in treating back pain compared to taking analgesics like Aspirin or Ibuprofen? How does exercise help in the long run?

Dr. Kendall: Well, there are a couple of reasons. First, you're strengthening your muscles. You really support the spine a lot better and with any arthritic joint, you strengthen the muscles around it, you load the joint a lot less and that triggers less pain from the joint. The second is you will get some change in the neuro firing patterns and how your brain perceives that pain. So overall your pain will be noticed less by your brain.

Dr. Miller: Could you explain why patients might be skeptical about utilizing exercise therapy or physical therapy to improve their condition?

Dr. Kendall: Well, one of the biggest things is that people already hurt doing very little activity and they think that doing more activity is going to hurt even more. So that is one thing that we have to overcome. The other is that they've probably been to therapy before or they've tried an exercise program and it may have helped them briefly, but then as soon as they stopped their pain came back. So they think it might be something more serious. Dr. Miller: So the key thing then is, number one, making sure they receive the proper instruction on the types of exercises that'll help strengthen the back and reduce the pain, but also encouraging them to keep up the exercise routine over time.

Dr. Kendall: That's true. Keeping it up is key and I always tell patients you can take a day here or a day there essentially Christmas and New Year's Day off, but every other day you should be doing some kind of activity. Whether it's five minutes or 10 minutes, that's great, but some kind of activity.

Dr. Miller: So, Rich, for patients that have mild to moderate back pain and who may not feel like they need to go in and see a physician, is there a website or a place they could go to find out what types of exercise might benefit them? Or do you even advise that?

Dr. Kendall: I think searching the web is a very difficult thing. If you type in low back exercises you get about 5 million websites to look at on Google. Knowing which one is correct, knowing which one is somebody just in their living room with no certification thinking that they're an exercise fitness guru is difficult. Really, I think that most people, unless you have an exercise background, seeing a therapist just one or two times, or even going and seeing a personal trainer at the gym it'd be a great place to start.

Announcer: TheScopeRadio.com is the University of Utah Health Sciences radio. If you like what you heard be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at TheScopeRadio.com.

Dr. Miller: You've tried physical therapy for back pain, and you're not ready for surgery. What other options are there? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on the Scope.

Dr. Miller: I'm here today with Dr. Richard Kendall. He's a professor of rehabilitative medicine, and he's also the Chair of the Department of Physical and Rehabilitative Medicine. Rich, tell us a little bit about what patients can do prior to surgery. I've heard about injections into the back for those patients who have sort of ongoing low back pain or pain in other parts of their back, but there are now injections that can be tried that might relieve their pain.

Dr. Kendall: So that's true. For people who have not done well with physical therapy program or medications like anti-inflammatories or Tylenol or even opiate medications, epidural injections are a tool for us to use to decrease pain. That's just what they are, they can decrease pain, they don't heal or cure a tissue, but getting rid or decreasing the pain is one option hopefully to let somebody go on, and further function before surgery.

Dr. Miller: So what exactly is an epidural injection? Where does that go on the back?

Dr. Kendall: The epidural space is the space around your spinal cord, and it's in the middle of the safe protection of the bones of the spine. It's a nice protected space that's filled with fat that we can put in some steroids and some Novocain in that can really help reduce inflammation as well as reduce pain.

Dr. Miller: Is this a difficult procedure or what does a patient expect when they come in to have this done?

Dr. Kendall: Honestly most of our patients expect the worst, but when we come in, we finish the procedure, and they say, "Wow, that's it? Are you kidding me? That's easier than the dentist." So . . .

Dr. Miller: That's pretty easy. If it's easier than the dentist, that's pretty easy.

Dr. Kendall: The thought of somebody poking a needle in your back is somewhat anxiety provoking but we do them with a lot of Lidocaine, and numbing under X-Ray guidance so most people really experience very little symptoms.

Dr. Miller: What are you injecting into that space that actually reduces the pain?

Dr. Kendall: We put in two medicines. One is corticosteroid or cortisone, and that gets rid of the inflammation. It'll sit in the fat cells for about two weeks around your spine and get rid of inflammation. The second is just a Novocain or a Lidocaine which is an anesthetic, and it'll numb those nerves and areas for several hours.

Dr. Miller: That lets you know that you're probably making a difference. I mean if the Novocain is working in the area where the back pain is emanating from, you'll know you're at the right place I guess, right?

Dr. Kendall: Yes, many people will be pain free when they leave. Some people that's only for four, five hours. However the Lidocaine does sometimes essentially stung the nerve if you will, and people's pain does disappear for much longer afterwards depending on the diagnosis.

Dr. Miller: How effective is this in reducing pain? Is it 80% effective, 50%, 30%? What's the story on that for patients that might be considering an epidural injection?

Dr. Kendall: Well in certain conditions, it can be very effective with disc herniations and people with radiculopathy or pain down the leg from that disc herniation. If you take all patients who could be surgical candidates and you do the injection, 60% of them choose not to have surgery because their pain improves significantly with the injection, and they choose to just not have the surgery because they're doing better.

Dr. Miller: So a great option to may be postpone or prevent surgery.

Dr. Kendall: So a great option for more than half the people . . .

Dr. Miller: That's great.

Dr. Kendall: . . . to really decrease pain, get them on, and avoid a surgery that lays you up for a few weeks or more.

Dr. Miller: Now can you have repeated injections if necessary or is there a limit on the number of injections one can have?

Dr. Kendall: There's not an actual limit, however we usually say three or so a year would be the most we would consider. Some people, it does take one or two injections to really get rid of that leg pain that they have and avoid the surgery. However if we do two injections and your pain comes back within a week, then actually surgery is probably a much better choice.

Dr. Miller: So you do these under imaging, and that helps direct the shot into the area that needs to be infused I guess.

Dr. Kendall: We do these all under X-Ray guidance, so we know exactly where we're going, we know exactly where the needle tip is. We inject a little bit of contrast die to make sure we're not in a nerve or a blood vessel. So overall these are very, very safe injections.

Dr. Miller: Now how would a patient find a physician that would be qualified to do these kinds of treatments? I don't think they necessarily need to go to a surgeon per se, do they?

Dr. Kendall: No, in fact most surgeons don't do these epidural injections. Most are non-operative either anesthesiology or physical medicine rehabilitation physicians. Most people who are pain board certified have done significant amounts of injections, and finding a physician who specializes in back pain and pain will certainly have enough training to do these.

Dr. Miller: Now last question is, if the injection is effective, how long could someone expect to have the effect last?

Dr. Kendall: Most of the time, I tell people until they do something that irritates their back again, it's really not easy for us to say a time frame. It's mostly until you bend funny again or slip or shovel too much snow or do something again that may irritate that disc again.

Dr. Miller: I'm assuming you'd also have them follow up with exercise therapy and physical therapy as another modality to continue to strengthen the back and prevent further injury.

Dr. Kendall: Yes, we always have our patients continues with their exercise program throughout this even before and afterwards just because that's going to decrease the likelihood of you flaring it up again.

Announcer: The ScopeRadio.com is University of Utah Health Sciences Radio. If you like what you heard, be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at TheScopeRadio.com.

Dr. Miller: If you're a cyclist and you have neck and back pain, what is the best way to avoid that or treat it? We're going to talk about that next on Scope Radio.

Announcer: Access to our experts with in-depth information about the biggest health issues facing you today. The Specialists with Dr. Tom Miller is on The Scope.

Dr. Miller: I'm here with Rich Kendall. Rich is a doctor of osteopathy and he is the chair of the Department of Rehabilitative Medicine. Rich is going to talk to us a little bit about how we can keep our necks and shoulders healthy when we're on the bike for long periods of time. Now Rich, I know you're an avid cyclist and so you have a good sense about these problems and probably have a lot to do with how to prevent them.

Dr. Kendall: That's true. I've been on a bike a lot of miles and done a lot of neck stretches and postural exercises to get rid of my neck pain.

Dr. Miller: Yeah, I saw you blow by me one day. You were going 100 miles an hour and I was only going about 5, so I know you're a good cyclist.

Dr. Kendall: I must have been doing my neck stretches. Yes, neck pain is very common in cyclists. The funny positions that we get ourselves into both on mountain and road bikes can really put a lot of strain on the neck, especially when most of us sit at a computer most of the day and have the head forward posture, which will increase some of the stress on our necks.

Dr. Miller: What's the best way to deal with that?

Dr. Kendall: One of the best ways is a good bike fit and making sure that your handle bars are about the level of your saddle, not trying to be in an overly aggressive arrow position for 100 mile ride because you just won't really do that unless you're a nice, pliable 25-year old. We want to make sure that everybody has a really well-supported neck, that their head is not forward, that their upper back is not rounded too much, and they are supported pretty well with their arms.

Dr. Miller: As a younger cyclist, it sounds like it's a little easier to avoid the problem, but as you get older, are there certain stretches you can do prior to getting on the bike?

Dr. Kendall: Probably the three most helpful exercises that I give to cyclists all of the time is one, they really need to stretch their hip flexors and quadriceps. So for a yoga warrior pose to really stretch your hip flexors and quadriceps out because in cyclists these are very tight. Your hip angles are very narrow and that's going to make your back round quite a bit. The other is to really strengthen your back muscles, exercises like Supermans or back extension exercises where you really can strengthen your back muscles. If you've ever gone that 100 mile ride, you come back, your triceps are the sorest muscles that you have, it's because your back isn't supporting you and you're supporting yourself with your tiny little cyclist arms the whole time.

Dr. Miller: So a professional bike fit would also help, you think or are most people able to do their own bike fitting? What do you recommend there?

Dr. Kendall: I think a professional bike fit is a good idea for most people who are going to spend more than token time on their bike. If you're riding 100 miles or more a week, you really need to have a bike fit done. Especially long term, especially early in the season where all of your muscles are tight, your chest muscles are tight, your hips are tight, you're going to want to have a nice bike fit where you're not overextending.

Dr. Miller: What happens if you're riding long enough that even if you're doing these exercises, you develop pain coming down one of the arms and your fingers or you've got pain in your neck that won't go away?

Dr. Kendall: If you've done all of these things and you are having continued neck pain or you start to get shooting pain down your arm or numbness in your hands and fingers, you really should be checked by your physician to make sure that you don't have a pinched nerve in your neck as a cause of these.

Announcer: TheScopeRadio.com is University of Utah Health Sciences Radio. If you like what you heard, be sure to get our latest content by following us on Facebook. Just click on the Facebook icon at TheScopeRadio.com.